Walmart family opening Whole Health School of Medicine

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Do you believe Whole Health School of Medicine will be a T20 school?

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  • no

    Votes: 129 73.3%
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2021Doctor

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Walmart heir Alice Walton last week announced plans to build a new nonprofit medical school.
The Whole Health School of Medicine and Health Sciences is described as a state-of-the-art education and training facility that will be built somewhere in Bentonville. No specific location was revealed.
The plan is to break ground in 2022 and to begin classes in the fall of 2024.
The program is allopathic, meaning graduates will receive a Doctor of Medicine (MD) degree.
www.fayettevilleflyer.com

Alice Walton plans new nonprofit medical school

The new school is part of a larger plan to address a broken healthcare system.
www.fayettevilleflyer.com www.fayettevilleflyer.com
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That’s hilarious.

It’s especially funny that they’re planning this lifestyle and wellness med school in Arkansas. This is just going to create a whole bunch of frustrated grads who, if they stay local, will become disillusioned quickly when none of their patients are interested in their diet and exercise programs and just want them to prescribe antidiabetic agents and statins instead. Having lived in the south my whole life, I can tell you that there are a fair few people whose one vegetable that they might eat regularly is highly salted collard greens cooked with ham and/or bacon fat, and just having their docs telling them to eat more vegetables isn’t going to fix that. This sort of healthy lifestyle medicine is not going to go over well in the biscuits and gravy belt.

She would have been better off using this most certainly substantial amount of money to subsidize a free vegetable program so that everyone who registers their address with Walmart can walk in and get a certain number of locally-grown, in-season vegetables for free per household per month. The only way we’re ever going to change the average American diet is if fresh produce is cheaper and more convenient to prepare/eat than chips and soda, and even then, that’s debatable.
 
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"At the time, Walton said a holistic approach that incorporates mind, body and spirit could be part of a solution that focuses on preventative health by training doctors on the importance of exercise and nutrition."

Because doctors now don't understand the importance of these things? Give me a break.
 
2020NonTrad said:
"At the time, Walton said a holistic approach that incorporates mind, body and spirit could be part of a solution that focuses on preventative health by training doctors on the importance of exercise and nutrition."

Because doctors now don't understand the importance of these things? Give me a break.
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They're opening a do school? Cuz the phraseology sure sounds awfully familiar.
 
I for one am thrilled that finally we will have a medical school focused on the health of our patients and communities. Question though: in the social determinants of health portion of the curriculum, will they discuss how poverty level wages (perhaps by one of the largest employers in the US - that may or may not be owned by the family of said donor) affect one's ability to afford nutritious foods? Maybe they can call in the founder of the school to discuss her informed philosophy on the matter...
 
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Target School of Medicine would have been better.

Why do I have some thought that an end game with this somehow benefits Wal Mart's pharmacy empire...or they will use this and the hospital affiliations to start an insurance plan like CVS.

I guess CVS school of medicine will follow soon.
 
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2020NonTrad said:
"At the time, Walton said a holistic approach that incorporates mind, body and spirit could be part of a solution that focuses on preventative health by training doctors on the importance of exercise and nutrition."

Because doctors now don't understand the importance of these things? Give me a break.
Click to expand...
To be fair, I think we got one half day dedicated to nutrition and maybe a single lecture dedicated to exercise (and most of that was how PT does their job). Knowing it's important is not the same as understanding it. We could definitely get more training in this, the health outcomes speak for themselves.

Edit: Also, everybody seems to be focusing on the "Walmart" part of this, but it's not really unprecedented- big donations to cement legacies in academic institutions is a classic move for aging billionaires.
 
Neopolymath said:
This should definitely be a DO school so we can stick with the dumbest possible timeline of events over in DO world lol
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Sadly, the fact that they’re trying to get clinical affiliation with a children’s hospital and other large hospital systems means it’ll probably be better than the majority of DO schools lol
 
Ho0v-man said:
Sadly, the fact that they’re trying to get clinical affiliation with a children’s hospital and other large hospital systems means it’ll probably be better than the majority of DO schools lol
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Imagine being in a world where even WalMart snubs opening a DO school when everyone and their mom can open one.

It hurts right in my feels, coach but simultaneously at least it's not another DO school. /Shrugs
 
First of all she’s an idiot but unfortunately she has enough money to do whatever she wants. Instead of investing in public health measures which may actually make a difference which she is in the perfect position to do, she’s recognized how lucrative for-profit medicine can be with “integrative health” (placebo healthcare for the wealthy) while contributing to the mess that is medical education. This isn’t about being evidence based or revolutionary model of medicine, it’s about an unaccomplished heir trying to make a splash.
 
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Interesting. KCU opened its Jopin Campus 4 years ago, which is only about an hour from Bentonville.

Can't wait for there to be a million walmart med schools blanketing the country lol
 
Redpancreas said:
First of all she’s an idiot but unfortunately she has enough money to do whatever she wants. Instead of investing in public health measures which may actually make a difference which she is in the perfect position to do, she’s recognized how lucrative for-profit medicine can be with “integrative health” (placebo healthcare for the wealthy) while contributing to the mess that is medical education. This isn’t about being evidence based or revolutionary model of medicine, it’s about an unaccomplished heir trying to make a splash.
Click to expand...

I think it's a non-profit
 
aaronrodgers said:
if Walmart is free tuition in perpetuity you best believe it’ll become a T20 school in the middle of Arkansas
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A bit tangential, but what if US news decided to make low/free tuition one of their ranking criteria? It would be interesting to see which schools decided to lower their tuition to try to boost their ranking, or other types of things they could come up with to manipulate it (ie massive fee hikes while lowering tuition).

Obviously not going to happen anytime soon, just a thought exercise.
 
Here's my vision of how this plays out (not really...just thoughts):

School and affiliated hospitals all become involved in a start up 'Wal Mart health insurance' (called something different like how CVS is Aetna...I'll bet it will be something like "America Choice Healthcare"). They get the local folks to get the insurance. They start expanding out dropping the cost of insurance way below market price (able to do this with support from other wal mart enterprises making up for the losses). Eventually, they expand out their insurance reach and start raising prices so that folks who don't shop around periodically just accept it as 'normal inflation' and keep their insurance. Next thing you know, they are an insurance powerhouse with a local or even statewide monopoly.

Meanwhile there is a class at the medical school reviewing physician burn out and whole health of providers that is going on at the very same time as a hospital admin at one of the affiliate hospitals across town is in a meeting with the head of medicine telling them that the providers have to all move from q30 min visits to q20 min appointment visits and start to handle all their prior auths because the hospital system is not meeting their bottom line.
 
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JimmyPage1969 said:
surprised it's allopathic
somewhat surprised it's nonprofit (though there are nonprofit med schools that function like for profit schools)
surprised the name is so generic, instead of something like "Alice Walton School of Medicine"...Whole Health? seriously?
Click to expand...
The fact that a Walmart MD school already offers better resources and residency prospects than many new DO schools is depressing in itself

This is heading to a nonprofit but CNU-type situation
 
calivianya said:
That’s hilarious.

It’s especially funny that they’re planning this lifestyle and wellness med school in Arkansas. This is just going to create a whole bunch of frustrated grads who, if they stay local, will become disillusioned quickly when none of their patients are interested in their diet and exercise programs and just want them to prescribe antidiabetic agents and statins instead. Having lived in the south my whole life, I can tell you that there are a fair few people whose one vegetable that they might eat regularly is highly salted collard greens cooked with ham and/or bacon fat, and just having their docs telling them to eat more vegetables isn’t going to fix that. This sort of healthy lifestyle medicine is not going to go over well in the biscuits and gravy belt.

She would have been better off using this most certainly substantial amount of money to subsidize a free vegetable program so that everyone who registers their address with Walmart can walk in and get a certain number of locally-grown, in-season vegetables for free per household per month. The only way we’re ever going to change the average American diet is if fresh produce is cheaper and more convenient to prepare/eat than chips and soda, and even then, that’s debatable.
Click to expand...
I object to your statement. I’ve lived in the south for quite some time now and I can attest to the fact that fried pickles are also eaten regularly. 🤣
 
JimmyPage1969 said:
surprised it's allopathic
somewhat surprised it's nonprofit (though there are nonprofit med schools that function like for profit schools)
surprised the name is so generic, instead of something like "Alice Walton School of Medicine"...Whole Health? seriously?
Click to expand...

Whole Foods School of Medicine and Trader Joes College of Physicians and Surgeons also set to be announced.
 
1619635874081.png
 
Ms Procrastinator said:
I think it's a non-profit
Click to expand...
That doesn’t mean much. They’ll reinvest lavishly in themselves and spend money on gimmicks and their leadership will still be paid handsomely. There are non-profit healthcare organizations in some of the most poverty stricken areas who are doing nothing to help the surrounding community.
 
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It's definitely funny reading this kind of stuff after going through medical education. Now it's just laughable to think anyone could believe the problem with health in a poor state like Arkansas is that medical students didn't get 3-4 more hours of lecture about wholistic health. Yeah, if only we'd done that we wouldn't be in such a mess!

This also reminds me of another truism in medicine: medical education has the unique power to take any good idea and absolutely and completely without exception beat the ever lovin' snot out of it. A bunch of eggheads at a wine tasting decide the doctors need to be exposed to more great art, and this turns into some random overworked and underpaid adjunct faculty member giving an ill prepared lecture with 4 objectives and 2011-era powerpoints which culminate in 3-4 multiple choice questions.

Unfortunately, she's got this pie-in-the-sky idea that the art of medicine can be taught at scale. We already deal with all these social determinants of health and lifestyle and nutrition and spiritual issues every day. This is where the true art of medicine lies - the ability to integrate these and other issues into clinical thinking and then communicate that with a patient. It's not like medical schools are teaching students that medicine is just 10 minute visits that end with a script and referral. Medical schools are already incredible touchy-feely and over the top with trying to force students to integrate all this stuff in their presentations and write-ups, but all of that gets thrown aside by intern year when you're trying to write 15 progress notes while taking admissions and consults and discharging patients and doing 100 other things.

She has a good intent and noble idea, but woefully misguided execution.
 
But in all seriousness, we need a massive overhaul and reform in medical education and not keep adding more schools.

Clearly med ed leaders and corporations are not interested in reforming clinical years to make med students more clinically competent and independent so this crap is going to only worsen.
 
Yet another medical school opening under the guise of filling the needs of a medically underserved area, only to be filled to the brim by Cali kids ready to yeet back to the west coast the moment they're dispensed their Wal-Mart™ MD
 
operaman said:
It's definitely funny reading this kind of stuff after going through medical education. Now it's just laughable to think anyone could believe the problem with health in a poor state like Arkansas is that medical students didn't get 3-4 more hours of lecture about wholistic health. Yeah, if only we'd done that we wouldn't be in such a mess!

This also reminds me of another truism in medicine: medical education has the unique power to take any good idea and absolutely and completely without exception beat the ever lovin' snot out of it. A bunch of eggheads at a wine tasting decide the doctors need to be exposed to more great art, and this turns into some random overworked and underpaid adjunct faculty member giving an ill prepared lecture with 4 objectives and 2011-era powerpoints which culminate in 3-4 multiple choice questions.

Unfortunately, she's got this pie-in-the-sky idea that the art of medicine can be taught at scale. We already deal with all these social determinants of health and lifestyle and nutrition and spiritual issues every day. This is where the true art of medicine lies - the ability to integrate these and other issues into clinical thinking and then communicate that with a patient. It's not like medical schools are teaching students that medicine is just 10 minute visits that end with a script and referral. Medical schools are already incredible touchy-feely and over the top with trying to force students to integrate all this stuff in their presentations and write-ups, but all of that gets thrown aside by intern year when you're trying to write 15 progress notes while taking admissions and consults and discharging patients and doing 100 other things.

She has a good intent and noble idea, but woefully misguided execution.
Click to expand...
The academic PhDs who tell medical students how they should be doctors is what I find most hypocritical and unnecessary about medical school. Physicians really need to take back control of our medical education, it is currently overrun by admins who are out of touch with reality and the ultimate goal of medical school, which is to match the student into residency.
 
FindersFee5 said:
To be fair, I think we got one half day dedicated to nutrition and maybe a single lecture dedicated to exercise (and most of that was how PT does their job). Knowing it's important is not the same as understanding it. We could definitely get more training in this, the health outcomes speak for themselves.

Edit: Also, everybody seems to be focusing on the "Walmart" part of this, but it's not really unprecedented- big donations to cement legacies in academic institutions is a classic move for aging billionaires.
Click to expand...
Emphasis on the absolute zero education I got on diet and exercise. Seriously. My school assumed this was such basic knowledge you already had it. I have only recently realized exactly what and how much work it takes to go from BMI >30 to 25 because I did it for myself finally and I learned it from Reddit and a former army chick who happened to be my PGY3 on service when I was a chief and I traded her cool operations to be my personal trainer and we both had some fun. Not that we have to make all doctors personal trainers, but some idea of what it takes and detailed plans would be wildly helpful, and I mean this seriously, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to have us actually participate in such a plan ourselves throughout medical school and carve time out for it in the curriculum for our own health and wellness which is notoriously ****ty. What you can accomplish with simple weights and 20-30 minutes three times a week is amazing. Coupled with a detailed diet plan that digs in to how to measure food and nutrients and what’s actually important in food would be a really great thing.

People will say “you can google that **** in fifteen minutes and doctors are not idiots” and... you’re completely right. But somehow I, and I *definitely* know I’m not alone, took 30+ years to figure it out. And I’m a GD surgeon.

There is such an extreme amount of anxiety, anticipation of failure, actual failure, lack of self respect, lack of education, and lack of trust when you’re sick and/or fat that maybe this isn’t the stupidest idea in the world. It took me finding someone I really trusted and would blindly believe and who was OK with me failing and kept telling me to keep trying over and over for like half a year. A good doctor and a good doctor patient relationship can definitely be that person.

idk fam. Maybe I’m just being crazy and I’m stupid but. I kind of dig it.
 
Lem0nz said:
Emphasis on the absolute zero education I got on diet and exercise. Seriously. My school assumed this was such basic knowledge you already had it. I have only recently realized exactly what and how much work it takes to go from BMI >30 to 25 because I did it for myself finally and I learned it from Reddit and a former army chick who happened to be my PGY3 on service when I was a chief and I traded her cool operations to be my personal trainer and we both had some fun. Not that we have to make all doctors personal trainers, but some idea of what it takes and detailed plans would be wildly helpful, and I mean this seriously, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to have us actually participate in such a plan ourselves throughout medical school and carve time out for it in the curriculum for our own health and wellness which is notoriously ****ty. What you can accomplish with simple weights and 20-30 minutes three times a week is amazing. Coupled with a detailed diet plan that digs in to how to measure food and nutrients and what’s actually important in food would be a really great thing.

People will say “you can google that **** in fifteen minutes and doctors are not idiots” and... you’re completely right. But somehow I, and I *definitely* know I’m not alone, took 30+ years to figure it out. And I’m a GD surgeon.

There is such an extreme amount of anxiety, anticipation of failure, actual failure, lack of self respect, lack of education, and lack of trust when you’re sick and/or fat that maybe this isn’t the stupidest idea in the world. It took me finding someone I really trusted and would blindly believe and who was OK with me failing and kept telling me to keep trying over and over for like half a year. A good doctor and a good doctor patient relationship can definitely be that person.

idk fam. Maybe I’m just being crazy and I’m stupid but. I kind of dig it.
Click to expand...
I agree. I had quite a few axillary classes in preclinical which were useful, including an art course at a museum, but the issue was they were never graded. Do I think these short fluff/extra courses should be graded? No, but it does take a lot of the drive to work on them and put serious effort in knowing that I have a lot of much harder material to learn that WOULD be graded.
 
Lem0nz said:
Emphasis on the absolute zero education I got on diet and exercise. Seriously. My school assumed this was such basic knowledge you already had it. I have only recently realized exactly what and how much work it takes to go from BMI >30 to 25 because I did it for myself finally and I learned it from Reddit and a former army chick who happened to be my PGY3 on service when I was a chief and I traded her cool operations to be my personal trainer and we both had some fun. Not that we have to make all doctors personal trainers, but some idea of what it takes and detailed plans would be wildly helpful, and I mean this seriously, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to have us actually participate in such a plan ourselves throughout medical school and carve time out for it in the curriculum for our own health and wellness which is notoriously ****ty. What you can accomplish with simple weights and 20-30 minutes three times a week is amazing. Coupled with a detailed diet plan that digs in to how to measure food and nutrients and what’s actually important in food would be a really great thing.

People will say “you can google that **** in fifteen minutes and doctors are not idiots” and... you’re completely right. But somehow I, and I *definitely* know I’m not alone, took 30+ years to figure it out. And I’m a GD surgeon.

There is such an extreme amount of anxiety, anticipation of failure, actual failure, lack of self respect, lack of education, and lack of trust when you’re sick and/or fat that maybe this isn’t the stupidest idea in the world. It took me finding someone I really trusted and would blindly believe and who was OK with me failing and kept telling me to keep trying over and over for like half a year. A good doctor and a good doctor patient relationship can definitely be that person.

idk fam. Maybe I’m just being crazy and I’m stupid but. I kind of dig it.
Click to expand...
The thing is instead of giving us a block of time to exercise or take care of ourselves, we receive a 3-4 hour interprofessional lecture about it. That is why its not a good idea to push this in med school as it gets taken over and ruined by admins
 
whataschool_classof24 said:
The academic PhDs who tell medical students how they should be doctors is what I find most hypocritical and unnecessary about medical school. Physicians really need to take back control of our medical education, it is currently overrun by admins who are out of touch with reality and the ultimate goal of medical school, which is to match the student into residency.
Click to expand...
I think I was spared from this at my school. We had PhDs teaching us basic science content, but the clinical side of things was all taught by physicians.

As a read the original article, I keep wondering how I would do it differently if I were a billionaire who wanted to make a big impact on medical training in my region. Certainly a massive donation to ensure free tuition for all students would be an easy start and might attract better students and allow more to consider lower paying fields.

I could also see providing funding to protect some clinicians' time for teaching, much like NIH grants do for researchers. I think MDs who like teaching would jump at the chance for a grant that would protect part of their salary and bonus structure to give them dedicated time for teaching, be it classes or on the wards or whatever. Currently many faculty have little to no protected time for teaching, and even if they have a day, if we're honest that time gets eaten up by finishing up charting and phone calls and other clinical issues. I've often wondered if a major billion-dollar endowment could offer teaching grants or something to interested faculty members. I'll bet your could free up docs who love teaching to do more of it while not forcing it on those who don't.
 
Lem0nz said:
Emphasis on the absolute zero education I got on diet and exercise. Seriously. My school assumed this was such basic knowledge you already had it. I have only recently realized exactly what and how much work it takes to go from BMI >30 to 25 because I did it for myself finally and I learned it from Reddit and a former army chick who happened to be my PGY3 on service when I was a chief and I traded her cool operations to be my personal trainer and we both had some fun. Not that we have to make all doctors personal trainers, but some idea of what it takes and detailed plans would be wildly helpful, and I mean this seriously, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to have us actually participate in such a plan ourselves throughout medical school and carve time out for it in the curriculum for our own health and wellness which is notoriously ****ty. What you can accomplish with simple weights and 20-30 minutes three times a week is amazing. Coupled with a detailed diet plan that digs in to how to measure food and nutrients and what’s actually important in food would be a really great thing.

People will say “you can google that **** in fifteen minutes and doctors are not idiots” and... you’re completely right. But somehow I, and I *definitely* know I’m not alone, took 30+ years to figure it out. And I’m a GD surgeon.

There is such an extreme amount of anxiety, anticipation of failure, actual failure, lack of self respect, lack of education, and lack of trust when you’re sick and/or fat that maybe this isn’t the stupidest idea in the world. It took me finding someone I really trusted and would blindly believe and who was OK with me failing and kept telling me to keep trying over and over for like half a year. A good doctor and a good doctor patient relationship can definitely be that person.

idk fam. Maybe I’m just being crazy and I’m stupid but. I kind of dig it.
Click to expand...
I agree and I am all for additional training regarding nutrition and exercise. But I can’t help but point out the irony that a member of one of the wealthiest families in the world, who largely built that wealth while paying very low wages to employees, sees the health disparities that exist as a result of deficient physician training rather than the economic factors that they contributed to. Until one has really lived and worked in poor urban and rural areas, it’s hard to articulate how comparatively and prohibitively expensive fruits and vegetables can be when compared to processed foods as well as how hard they are to find in stores. There are certainly many ways to address health through nutrition and exercise (imagine if we could prescribe fruits and vegetables to patients) but I’m highly doubtful that additional physician training will significantly move the needle in one of the poorest states in the US without addressing other factors.
 
I think people are really focusing too much on the whole touchy feely part of this proposal which is all garbage. If she actually cared about any of that she’d simply spend waaaay less money sponsoring these types of classes for medical students at the three existing medical schools in Arkansas. It could even be electives because for some reason people do that. This is a cash grab just like every other med school that’s opened up in the last 20 years. It’s the same BS buzzwords about holistic, mind, body, spirit, integrative blah blah blah. The next statement she makes might have rural, underserved, and primary care mentioned just to throw in the rest of the usual spices to this rip off recipe.
 
GreenDuck12 said:
I agree and I am all for additional training regarding nutrition and exercise. But I can’t help but point out the irony that a member of one of the wealthiest families in the world, who largely built that wealth while paying very low wages to employees, sees the health disparities that exist as a result of deficient physician training rather than the economic factors that they contributed to. Until one has really lived and worked in poor urban and rural areas, it’s hard to articulate how comparatively and prohibitively expensive fruits and vegetables can be when compared to processed foods as well as how hard they are to find in stores. There are certainly many ways to address health through nutrition and exercise (imagine if we could prescribe fruits and vegetables to patients) but I’m highly doubtful that additional physician training will significantly move the needle in one of the poorest states in the US without addressing other factors.
Click to expand...
I mean don't get me wrong. Its so deep in multi-factorial land that this is a drop in the bucket. But to actually change that for the country, how fat we are, is going to require us to come at it from essentially every angle relentlessly over and over again. Physician education and training isn't a terrible piece. Affordable non-processed food is equally as important. As is enough money to get it. As is having a job to begin with. As is having time to exercise, and a place, and equipment, and the social network to engage people and keep them from being less isolated in an increasingly digital world. There's a billion pieces to this.

Just saying that this isn't a bad thing. Could the money be better spent? Yea of course. There's other ways. But when you're the billionaire its up to you how and what you want to tackle with your money. So I'm not upset that's what was chosen. If I were a billionaire I would be spending my money on carbon capture technology because it doesn't matter how fat or thin we are if the planet is a scorched rock. But I'm not gonna fault Elon for not getting it done... yet.

The point is - at least she isn't just sitting on her money doing a Bezos. You know?
 
Lem0nz said:
I mean don't get me wrong. Its so deep in multi-factorial land that this is a drop in the bucket. But to actually change that for the country, how fat we are, is going to require us to come at it from essentially every angle relentlessly over and over again. Physician education and training isn't a terrible piece. Affordable non-processed food is equally as important. As is enough money to get it. As is having a job to begin with. As is having time to exercise, and a place, and equipment, and the social network to engage people and keep them from being less isolated in an increasingly digital world. There's a billion pieces to this.

Just saying that this isn't a bad thing. Could the money be better spent? Yea of course. There's other ways. But when you're the billionaire its up to you how and what you want to tackle with your money. So I'm not upset that's what was chosen. If I were a billionaire I would be spending my money on carbon capture technology because it doesn't matter how fat or thin we are if the planet is a scorched rock. But I'm not gonna fault Elon for not getting it done... yet.

The point is - at least she isn't just sitting on her money doing a Bezos. You know?
Click to expand...
I think what people are saying is that the founder isn't really trying to combat this issue. They're just trying to justify the opening of the school so they can slap their name on it and add to their "legacy", as most billionaires are extreme narcissits. Walmart does not care about this issue as seen by their previous actions. Also, if it's any indication of how Walmart treats their employees, imagine how they'll treat their med students.
 
I remember in Denmark a bag of heavily taxed candy cost more than a heavily subsidized box salad. Then, here in America, I'm watching ads on cable for prescription drugs to ask your doctor for, reading about how physician and midlevel lobbyists are battling each other to decide scopes of practice, and now seeing Walmart School of Medicine isn't an article from the onion.

The hell is wrong with us
 
Redpancreas said:
That doesn’t mean much. They’ll reinvest lavishly in themselves and spend money on gimmicks and their leadership will still be paid handsomely. There are non-profit healthcare organizations in some of the most poverty stricken areas who are doing nothing to help the surrounding community.
Click to expand...

So. . . . The walmart foundations have done a crud ton for the area.
Bentonville and Rogers are some of the nicer places I’ve visited. Crystal Bridges is awesome. One of the best children’s museums, and many miles of public bike paths/trails.

Walmart has many faults, but it is dishonest to say they aren’t giving back. Personally, the area has a lot of appeal to me.
 
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