Walmart Wrongly Fired Pharmacist with MS Over Vaccinations

[BidingMyTime]

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https://www.drugtopics.com/walmart/walmart-wrongly-fired-pharmacist-ms-over-vaccinations

"A jury found that Walmart was wrong to have fired a pharmacist with multiple sclerosis who was not able do immunizations. The verdict awards the pharmacist, Lori Jacobs, more than $1 million because the company violated the Americans with Disabilities Act. "

Sounds like Walmart is hoping to appeal, and the article also mentions that because of federal award limits, teh pharmacist won't be getting $1,000,000 (more like $750,000)

Walmart was unable to successfully argue that giving vaccines is a necessary job function of a pharmacist. Which does surprise me, given how ubiquitous pharmacists giving vaccines in retail is, and I know of pharmacists in real life this has happened to (they were given the option of give vaccines or quit after being told that no medical diagnosis would excuse them from vaccine duty, so they quit.)

 

[mentos]

Pharmacists quit just because they didn't want to give flu shots? No sympathy.

 

[Sine Cura]

FYI these are some of the physical competencies required:

"Grasps, turns, and manipulates objects of varying size and weight, requiring fine motor skills and hand-eye coordination."

"Moves, lifts, carries, and places merchandise and supplies weighing up to 20 pounds without assistance."

Do you think someone with CP could do the above proficiently or is this like one of those pharmacists who just sit there and verify and counsel and do nothing else?

Technically there is nothing in the "official" job description that specifically requires one must do immunizations.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Pharmacists quit just because they didn't want to give flu shots? No sympathy.

They didn't quit because they didn't want to give flu shots, they quit because they had a medical diagnosis preventing them from giving flu shots (ie tremors) and were told no medical excuses were valid. As to whether they could do the other functions of their job...I assume so, since they hadn't been fired.

 

[BC_89]

I didn’t know there was a federal law cap for awarding those with wrongful dealings from big corporations.

 

[awval999]

This was Walmart's risk going to a jury trial. It will be appealed of course.
Giving vaccines is a critical part of the job of a community pharmacist. It is an undue hardship on the employer. It is an essential function of the job.

I agree with Walmart here:
Walmart issued a statement on the verdict: “Providing immunizations is an essential job function for pharmacists at Walmart and leading pharmacy chains across the country, and it’s a vital service that local communities depend on.” The big-box chain noted that being able to provide immunizations was ruled to be a valid essential job function for pharmacists by the U.S. Court of Appeals two years ago. It said that it is looking at its options, including appealing the decision.

 

[deleted480308]

If you cannot so the job you should be allowed to be fired.

 

[Claydoe]

A pharmacist claims that his employer should have accommodated his fear of needles. And he may be right.

Not exactly the same case, but if its not listed as an essential job duty prepare to get wrecked by the ADA.

 

[johnpharm01]

This was Walmart's risk going to a jury trial. It will be appealed of course.
Giving vaccines is a critical part of the job of a community pharmacist. It is an undue hardship on the employer. It is an essential function of the job.

I agree with Walmart here:
Walmart issued a statement on the verdict: “Providing immunizations is an essential job function for pharmacists at Walmart and leading pharmacy chains across the country, and it’s a vital service that local communities depend on.” The big-box chain noted that being able to provide immunizations was ruled to be a valid essential job function for pharmacists by the U.S. Court of Appeals two years ago. It said that it is looking at its options, including appealing the decision.

Giving vaccinations is NOT an essential job duty of a retail pharmacist. Don't drink the corporate Kool-Aid. If its so essential why hasn't been a job requirement since pharmacists could first legally give them? And why hasn't Walmart invested in private rooms for administration instead of a screen and a plastic chair like a third world country? And if they hired someone with a disability why would't they try to accommodate them? Undue hardship on Walmart- lmao. How about undue hardship on the pharmacist they fired?

 

[steveysmith54]

The chain could have made accommodations by scheduling this pharmacists floater shifts when there is an overlap with another RPh.

 

[sozetone]

One of my floaters is allergic to Isopropyl alcohol (BS) but yeah she does not have to give shots.......i hate when she covers shift during flu season. I walk in at 11 and shes like oh, there are 6 shots waiting for you.....shes a total weird-o though. Believes in crystals and is basically allergic to everything including oxygen. Total head case. They wont mess with her, but t hey let her languish around 22 hours, and give her shifts as little as possible. Just burning her out.

 

[zelman]

One of my floaters is allergic to Isopropyl alcohol (BS) but yeah she does not have to give shots.......i hate when she covers shift during flu season. I walk in at 11 and shes like oh, there are 6 shots waiting for you.....shes a total weird-o though. Believes in crystals and is basically allergic to everything including oxygen. Total head case. They wont mess with her, but t hey let her languish around 22 hours, and give her shifts as little as possible. Just burning her out.

Uhhhh...shouldn’t she be protected from the alcohol by gloves?

 

[BidingMyTime]

If you cannot so the job you should be allowed to be fired.

As a libertarian, I agree with you....but what the current law actually says may be different.

 

[deleted480308]

As a libertarian, I agree with you....but what the current law actually says may be different.

I agree. The govt is wrong on this one

 

[johnpharm01]

I agree. The govt is wrong on this one

Ours is not a free market but a fixed market in which the rich get richer. The Walton Family is a perfect example. They don't make money on the basis of their own merits alone but accept government handouts. They also promote their contributions to the community. They also operate pharmacies = healthcare. There are benefits to doing business this way, but there are responsibilities too. So they garner little sympathy from me. The fact that anyone on this forum would side with the ultra wealthy befuddles me.

 

[deleted480308]

Ours is not a free market but a fixed market in which the rich get richer. The Walton Family is a perfect example. They don't make money on the basis of their own merits alone but accept government handouts. They also promote their contributions to the community. They also operate pharmacies = healthcare. There are benefits to doing business this way, but there are responsibilities too. So they garner little sympathy from me. The fact that anyone on this forum would side with the ultra wealthy befuddles me.

It’s a free market in which almost everyone tends to do better

I side with voluntary association. If you don’t/can’t do the job requested, you don’t keep showing up

 

[PolarPop]

It’s a free market in which almost everyone tends to do better

I side with voluntary association. If you don’t/can’t do the job requested, you don’t keep showing up

This lady was licensed in 1977, before pharmacists could even give vaccines. She may have picked this profession because there were no physical coordination requirements. So she isn’t allowed to be a pharmacist anymore because a massive company wants to make a few extra dollars on flu shots or make an inconvenient schedule?

To be an essential function the job has to exist to perform that function, and no community pharmacist position exists to give vaccines. They are there to verify prescriptions, and to give vaccines as a minor add-on.

There isn’t even a public health argument here either since there are several other pharmacies in the area and schedules could have been changed.

 

[deleted480308]

This lady was licensed in 1977, before pharmacists could even give vaccines. She may have picked this profession because there were no physical coordination requirements. So she isn’t allowed to be a pharmacist anymore because a massive company wants to make a few extra dollars on flu shots or make an inconvenient schedule?

To be an essential function the job has to exist to perform that function, and no community pharmacist position exists to give vaccines. They are there to verify prescriptions, and to give vaccines as a minor add-on.

There isn’t even a public health argument here either since there are several other pharmacies in the area and schedules could have been changed.

It’s not a public health argument.

It’s as simple as “are you doing everything the employer wants in exchange for the check”. If the answer is no they can( or should be legal to) fire you. And in the same manner if everything they ask isn’t worth the check to you, you ahould be legal to quit. Freedom

 

[johnpharm01]

It’s a free market in which almost everyone tends to do better

I side with voluntary association. If you don’t/can’t do the job requested, you don’t keep showing up

Please explain how the TARP fits into a free market.

 

[Rouelle]

For better or worse, it’s the employer that gets to determine what the “essential job functions” are for a particular job, not the employees or internet forum subscribers.

 

[deleted480308]

Please explain how the TARP fits into a free market.

Sorry for my hamfisted phrasing. I was saying we are still free enough that almost everyone ends up doing better. We certainly would be better to restore ourselves to more free market policies. I just disagree with your premise that only the wealthy do better here

Tarp isn’t a free market policy and I didn’t like it

 

[johnpharm01]

For better or worse, it’s the employer that gets to determine what the “essential job functions” are for a particular job, not the employees or internet forum subscribers.

Not when it goes to a civil trial with a jury. The definition of "reasonable" is interpreted by a jury. So after 20 years of working the production line you develop arthritis and need to periodically sit down and then get fired because your mega box, multinational employer believes standing up is "essential" I have your back if I make the jury.

These big companies love to be seen as compassionate towards customers with illnesses just saw a walgreens ad featuring apparent cancer survivors. Are they as compassionate toward their employees? People aren't robots.

 

[deleted480308]

Not when it goes to a civil trial with a jury. The definition of "reasonable" is interpreted by a jury. So after 20 years of working the production line you develop arthritis and need to periodically sit down and then get fired because your mega box, multinational employer believes standing up is "essential" I have your back if I make the jury.

These big companies love to be seen as compassionate towards customers with illnesses just saw a walgreens ad featuring apparent cancer survivors. Are they as compassionate toward their employees? People aren't robots.

If you are paid to stand and can’t, you should go home

 

[johnpharm01]

Sorry for my hamfisted phrasing. I was saying we are still free enough that almost everyone ends up doing better. We certainly would be better to restore ourselves to more free market policies. I just disagree with your premise that only the w

If you are paid to stand and can’t, you should go home

What's essential to the job of a retail pharmacist- accurately verifying a large volume of orders in a timely fashion, counseling patients, supervising technicians, ensuring security of pharmacy

 

[owlegrad]

Hmmm I am not sure where I fall on this. It certainly isn’t fair to her that the job changed to a point she literally medically can not do the job. I hope I never find myself in that position. But who ever said life is fair?

Maybe she should have seen the writing on the wall and done whatever it took to find a job that wouldn’t require her to give flu shots.

 

[steveysmith54]

Should we also fire pharmacists who don't fill birth control due to religious beliefs?

 

[deleted480308]

Should we also fire pharmacists who don't fill birth control due to religious beliefs?

Each store should be allowed to make that call

 

[owlegrad]

Should we also fire pharmacists who don't fill birth control due to religious beliefs?

Yes.

Should we fire Christian Scientist pharmacists who will not fill any prescriptions for religious beliefs?

 

[mentos]

This lady was licensed in 1977, before pharmacists could even give vaccines. She may have picked this profession because there were no physical coordination requirements. So she isn’t allowed to be a pharmacist anymore because a massive company wants to make a few extra dollars on flu shots or make an inconvenient schedule?

To be an essential function the job has to exist to perform that function, and no community pharmacist position exists to give vaccines. They are there to verify prescriptions, and to give vaccines as a minor add-on.

There isn’t even a public health argument here either since there are several other pharmacies in the area and schedules could have been changed.

Times change, you have to evolve. You think a software engineer from 1977 should still be employed if they don't perform their expected duties in 2019?

 

[Lnsean]

This lady was licensed in 1977, before pharmacists could even give vaccines. She may have picked this profession because there were no physical coordination requirements. So she isn’t allowed to be a pharmacist anymore because a massive company wants to make a few extra dollars on flu shots or make an inconvenient schedule?

To be an essential function the job has to exist to perform that function, and no community pharmacist position exists to give vaccines. They are there to verify prescriptions, and to give vaccines as a minor add-on.

There isn’t even a public health argument here either since there are several other pharmacies in the area and schedules could have been changed.

You're reframing the argument though. No one cares what you think a pharmacists job should be...you're not the one forking over 120k for a product. Walmart is the buyer here...with 120k in one hand and a list of "features" they're looking for in their "product" aka the modern pharmacist. They are paying for a service that they want...if you cannot provide that service, they should be allowed to end the relationship. What's so hard about this?

Base on your logic, what if your lawn care guy developed allergies to mowing your lawn...are you obligated to keep paying him when he does a half assed job? I mean it's not his fault right?

I mean not to go off topic, but I think welfare states are kool too, like who doesn't love paying people for jobs they can't do.

 

[steveysmith54]

Each store should be allowed to make that call

That would violate one's right to practice religion. You'd need to change the constitution, sir.

Immunization comprises roughly 3% of total RX filled in a typical pharmacy that I worked in.
Hope that you don't get MS or Cerebral Palsy.

 

[deleted480308]

That would violate one's right to practice religion. You'd need to change the constitution, sir.

Immunization comprises roughly 3% of total RX filled in a typical pharmacy that I worked in.
Hope that you don't get MS or Cerebral Palsy.

Constitutionally recognized natural right to practice your religion does not mean you have a natural right to force an employer to pay you to not do the job they want to pay for...

And my personal hx or future of illness doesn’t change any of that

 

[steveysmith54]

Constitutionally recognized natural right to practice your religion does not mean you have a natural right to force an employer to pay you to not do the job they want to pay for...

Hope that you understand that your statement is just an expression of an opinion, rather than a fact or a law. I’ve worked for 2 major chains, both allows pharmacists to refuse to dispense birth control for religious beliefs... there was a major incident where a pharmacist refused to dispense cytotec last year, as well. Whether you believe it’s wront or right, it’s allowed and nothing that you or I can do about it

 

[deleted480308]

Hope that you understand that your statement is just an expression of an opinion, rather than a fact or a law. I’ve worked for 2 major chains, both allows pharmacists to refuse to dispense birth control for religious beliefs... there was a major incident where a pharmacist refused to dispense cytotec last year, as well. Whether you believe it’s wront or right, it’s allowed and nothing that you or I can do about it

Chains should absolutely be allowed to permit religious exemptions, I’m not arguing that they shouldn’t. I’m saying the govt doesn’t need input

Of course I’m talking about what “should be”, what is actual law currently doesn’t make for an interesting conversation

 

[sozetone]

Uhhhh...shouldn’t she be protected from the alcohol by gloves?

She cant even smell the stuff bro, it's so dumb. She goes into a fit and leaves the pharmacy if you even open a wipe. Like i said shes a real nutbag man. serious mental issues....

 

[BidingMyTime]

Hope that you understand that your statement is just an expression of an opinion, rather than a fact or a law. I’ve worked for 2 major chains, both allows pharmacists to refuse to dispense birth control for religious beliefs... there was a major incident where a pharmacist refused to dispense cytotec last year, as well. Whether you believe it’s wront or right, it’s allowed and nothing that you or I can do about it

Whether it's allowed by government requirement depends on what state one lives in...not all states protect the employee against the employer in this regard. And like SB said, employer's can do anything they want....well, unless you live in IL, where a court ruled that an independent pharmacy *has* to dispense Plan B, against the owner's wishes (although I think this was eventually overturned on appeal.)

Now back to the OP, would the pharmacist be able to collect disability, if she were fired from being physically unable to do her job? I'm thinking no, since there are pharmacist jobs that don't require giving vaccinations. But I'm curious how disability works in a case like this.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Ours is not a free market but a fixed market in which the rich get richer. The Walton Family is a perfect example. They don't make money on the basis of their own merits alone but accept government handouts. They also promote their contributions to the community. They also operate pharmacies = healthcare. There are benefits to doing business this way, but there are responsibilities too. So they garner little sympathy from me. The fact that anyone on this forum would side with the ultra wealthy befuddles me.

The US is definitely not a completely free market, but it far closer to a free market than most others (maybe all other) countries, and that is certainly a major reason for US wealth. And because of the US wealth, even when there is a large disparity between rich and poor, poor people in the US are far better off than poor people in many other countries (and the same is true of middle class people compared to middle class people in many other countries.)

I agree with you that corporations that except government welfare, have little basis to complain when government interferes in their business (as government will invariably do.) Personally, I think corporate welfare is hurting our country far more than individual welfare, as corporate welfare often punishes other corporations just to reward a favored corporation...this flirts with fascism far more than giving out food stamps to poor people flirts with socialism, IMO.

Still, in spite of the many flaws in our current system, it is a reasonably good system that has increased the standard of living for everyone here.

 

[Subvisual]

I feel like this thread should be archived for quick and easy reference whenever someone questions why the pharmacist profession has not unionized.

Our collective crab mentality would create a work environment just as demanding and punitive as the already existing corporate one.

 

[sosoo]

around here pharmacists are going to apartment buildings to give flu shots. its part of CVS off site flu shot program. you're required to leave the pharmacy....., on your day off...., to inject people with God knows what.

 

[ValeRx]

I've heard of a pharmacist for a large chain that was some documented phobia for giving IM injections and therefore is not required to. In fact, they order special flu shots and actually put up a sign for people to come back later when another pharmacist is on duty.

 

[BidingMyTime]

I've heard of a pharmacist for a large chain that was some documented phobia for giving IM injections and therefore is not required to. In fact, they order special flu shots and actually put up a sign for people to come back later when another pharmacist is on duty.

Why do they have to order special flu shots, if the phobia pharmacist isn't giving the flu shots?

 

[ValeRx]

Why do they have to order special flu shots, if the phobia pharmacist isn't giving the flu shots?

They're some sort of transdermal flu shot rather than IM so I guess it's "OK" for them to administer.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Pharmacists quit just because they didn't want to give flu shots? No sympathy.

**** off.

Pharmacists should be paid a fee for each immunization they give

 

[mentos]

**** off.

Pharmacists should be paid a fee for each immunization they give

LoL good luck with that. Nurses have been giving immunizations for decades without that sense of entitlement.

 

[projektreverb]

We can’t even agree on immunizations. No wonder Walgreens made us crumble to our knees back when Chicago pharmacists went on strike. Honestly, I feel bad for our profession and the downhill slope it’s riding on until I read some of these comments lol

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

**** off.

Pharmacists should be paid a fee for each immunization they give

Outside of owning your own store, are you paid for each prescription that you fill?

Genuinely asking (though I'm 99% sure I know the answer) because there would be some sense in it. I bet there would be much less complaining about being too busy or having high numbers of prescriptions filled per day if you were.

There's a reason the doctors in my group don't object to seeing 30+ patients/day...

 

[projektreverb]

Outside of owning your own store, are you paid for each prescription that you fill?

Genuinely asking (though I'm 99% sure I know the answer) because there would be some sense in it. I bet there would be much less complaining about being too busy or having high numbers of prescriptions filled per day if you were.

There's a reason the doctors in my group don't object to seeing 30+ patients/day...

Technically, the pharmacy does. Outside of owning your own pharmacy, you’ll never see the individual payments for each prescription.

I will admit, private practice is different that corporate pharmacy. It would be the equivalent of asking: do hospitalists get paid per patient seen?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Technically, the pharmacy does. Outside of owning your own pharmacy, you’ll never see the individual payments for each prescription.

I will admit, private practice is different that corporate pharmacy. It would be the equivalent of asking: do hospitalists get paid per patient seen?

Some are paid on production. Varies from place to place. For example my town has 2 hospitals with clinics here. My group is paid on production. The other group is salaried.

You can guess who works harder

 

[projektreverb]

Some are paid on production. Varies from place to place. For example my town has 2 hospitals with clinics here. My group is paid on production. The other group is salaried.

You can guess who works harder

Interesting. Didn’t even know that still existed. That’s amazing though, still making money on production!

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Outside of owning your own store, are you paid for each prescription that you fill?

Genuinely asking (though I'm 99% sure I know the answer) because there would be some sense in it. I bet there would be much less complaining about being too busy or having high numbers of prescriptions filled per day if you were.

There's a reason the doctors in my group don't object to seeing 30+ patients/day...

Nah, but I consider it outside of the normal duties of a pharmacist.

Our Associations are packed with *****s that beg for things like immunization privileges, with no idea how to actually male it work for the profession