WAMC? 1st time applicant for this upcoming cycle

[Doctah2727]

Hello! I’m a first time applicant majoring in Molecular, Cell and Developmental Biology and on track to graduate a year early as well as applying this upcoming cycle. I am a male from Southern California and I am also a first generation college student. I am interested in applying for DVM/PhD programs at Davis, Cornell, UPenn, Tufts, Washington State and Oregon State. An obvious lack in my veterinary experience is diversity, specifically large animal experience; however, paying for school on my own prohibits me from being able to do volunteering/shadowing during the summer as I need this time to pay for the following years cost. Also, the combination of the inability to afford a car throughout undergrad as well as living in Orange County has hindered my ability to venture out and obtain large animal experience. These are not excuses, but I’d hope my financial situation would favor a more holistic approach to my application.

Cumulative GPA: 3.8 (aiming to be a 3.88 once applications are submitted!)
science GPA: 3.9
last 45: 4.0

Any degrees achieved: N/A

GRE results: Q/V/W

Taking the GRE this spring, will retake this summer if my results aren’t as good as I would hope them to be!

Veterinary Experience:
-600 small animal hours as a hospital assistant
(Around 1000 by the time I submit my application)
-4 hours shadowing a vet doing a procedure on an elephant seal
-20 hours assisting with necropsies on stranded marine mammals. (Sea otter, California sea lion)

Animal Experience:
-200 dog/cat handling hours
-50 hours dog sitting

Research Experience:
-1000 hours being an undergraduate research assistant in a physiology lab focusing on reproductive physiology and endocrinology in Northern Elephant seals. Currently doing my own research project on using hormone concentrations to assess pregnancy status in northern elephant seals.
-Assisted with 20+ procedures on northern elephant seals for sampling of blubber, blood, whiskers, muscle.
-Assisted with 10+ satellite tagging procedures on northern elephant seals that help to assess population numbers and behavior.
-Restrained and tagged over 100 elephant seals/elephant seal pups to help assess population.
-Lab experience includes blood spinning/pipetting/hematocrit assessment, basic centrifuging, chemical washes, hormone extraction from blubber tissue, running enzyme immunoassays.
-70 hours surveying beaches for stranded marine mammals.

Awards/scholarships:
-Multiple Deans Honors awards
-$1000 student research award for proposal of marine related research project
-$3000 ThanksUSA award for maintaining high academic standing as a dependent of a military veteran
-$1250 scholarship for being selected as my home towns “citizen of the month” for academic standing and extracurricular activities.

Extracurriculars:
-Surf Team member
-Chemistry Club member
-Vice President of Pre-Vet Club
-Member of the Educational Opportunity Program (EOP) for students from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Employment:
-Parking lot attendant for local MLB/NHL games: cashier, lot cleaner, parking management, flagger/laborer
-Commercial Building services: window washing, pressure washing, construction clean up, bird net installation
-Residential Window cleaning


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[MixedAnimals77]

Hello! I’m a first time applicant majoring in Molecular, Cell and Developmental Biology and on track to graduate a year early as well as applying this upcoming cycle. I am a male from Southern California and I am also a first generation college student. I am interested in applying for DVM/PhD programs at Davis, Cornell, UPenn, Tufts, Washington State and Oregon State. An obvious lack in my veterinary experience is diversity, specifically large animal experience; however, paying for school on my own prohibits me from being able to do volunteering/shadowing during the summer as I need this time to pay for the following years cost. Also, the combination of the inability to afford a car throughout undergrad as well as living in Orange County has hindered my ability to venture out and obtain large animal experience. These are not excuses, but I’d hope my financial situation would favor a more holistic approach to my application.

Cumulative GPA: 3.8 (aiming to be a 3.88 once applications are submitted!)
science GPA: 3.9
last 45: 4.0

Any degrees achieved: N/A

GRE results: Q/V/W

Taking the GRE this spring, will retake this summer if my results aren’t as good as I would hope them to be!

Veterinary Experience:
-600 small animal hours as a hospital assistant
(Around 1000 by the time I submit my application)
-4 hours shadowing a vet doing a procedure on an elephant seal
-20 hours assisting with necropsies on stranded marine mammals. (Sea otter, California sea lion)

Animal Experience:
-200 dog/cat handling hours
-50 hours dog sitting

Research Experience:
-1000 hours being an undergraduate research assistant in a physiology lab focusing on reproductive physiology and endocrinology in Northern Elephant seals. Currently doing my own research project on using hormone concentrations to assess pregnancy status in northern elephant seals.
-Assisted with 20+ procedures on northern elephant seals for sampling of blubber, blood, whiskers, muscle.
-Assisted with 10+ satellite tagging procedures on northern elephant seals that help to assess population numbers and behavior.
-Restrained and tagged over 100 elephant seals/elephant seal pups to help assess population.
-Lab experience includes blood spinning/pipetting/hematocrit assessment, basic centrifuging, chemical washes, hormone extraction from blubber tissue, running enzyme immunoassays.
-70 hours surveying beaches for stranded marine mammals.

Awards/scholarships:
-Multiple Deans Honors awards
-$1000 student research award for proposal of marine related research project
-$3000 ThanksUSA award for maintaining high academic standing as a dependent of a military veteran
-$1250 scholarship for being selected as my home towns “citizen of the month” for academic standing and extracurricular activities.

Extracurriculars:
-Surf Team member
-Chemistry Club member
-Vice President of Pre-Vet Club
-Member of the Educational Opportunity Program (EOP) for students from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Employment:
-Parking lot attendant for local MLB/NHL games: cashier, lot cleaner, parking management, flagger/laborer
-Commercial Building services: window washing, pressure washing, construction clean up, bird net installation
-Residential Window cleaning


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How a school evaluates an application just depends on a school-ie doesn't vary from application to application or else they couldn't be fair to everyone.. That's not to say evaluators won't be like oh they live in Orange County of course they won't have any LA experience. I guess my point is I hope you won't incorporate you working over the summer in your application in a light that says oh that's why I don't have x,y,z. Instead if anything about that comes up use it as an opportunity to say I work over the summers to decrease my loans while still getting all this experience during the school year. The why you worded it in your post just came off a little odd which I know you didn't mean it to-but the above is a suggestion how you can spin that. Because I guarantee you are not the first person to work to support themselves and scrape through the year, be a first gen and live in a big city with 0 opportunities for LA experience. Instead shine what you have done and don't focus on what you don't have.

With that WSU is extremely competitive to get acceptance as an OOS into the Pullman campus-like 1% from submission to offers. Not to say it's impossible though because here I am. WSU does not have a specific DVM/PhD combined program like some schools ie CSU and Minnesota. However, if that is what you are interested in I'm pretty sure you just have to meet with a committee to get it set up. We just don't have preset program that you can apply to if that makes sense. Unfortunately, I don't know much about doing a combined program so I would really recommend getting in touch with the recruiting office at WSU for more specifics on how that works.

For all of your applications I would make sure that you can articulate why you want a DVM and PhD. Why not just get a PhD or just a DVM.

I would also suggest on your vet experience if you can try getting into a specialty, exotics or shelter practice to help diversify your experience within the small animal world since LA experience opportunities are limited. Specifically for WSU they like to see everything you do so don't spare anything. Won a 1st place trophy in high school soccer add it. Donate clothes annually to the abuse shelter-add it. They really want to see you are a person outside of school/vet med. WSU is also huge on community within the profession and you having an idea where you would fit in in the profession so I suggest spending some time on their website looking at all the program and things we offer as a veterinary school.

Once you take your GRE you can also go on the WSU website and see what tier you end up in for interview purposes. Your academics and research are really strong, so work on strengthening and diversifying your animal, vet, and extracurriculars if you can. Get yourself some fantastic LORs and write awesome essays and I think you'll have a decent shot. As I said before though make sure you can articulate the DVM/PhD vs just getting one of them because this is a huge reason many DVM/PhD candidates get rejected

 

[Doctah2727]

How a school evaluates an application just depends on a school-ie doesn't vary from application to application or else they couldn't be fair to everyone.. That's not to say evaluators won't be like oh they live in Orange County of course they won't have any LA experience. I guess my point is I hope you won't incorporate you working over the summer in your application in a light that says oh that's why I don't have x,y,z. Instead if anything about that comes up use it as an opportunity to say I work over the summers to decrease my loans while still getting all this experience during the school year. The why you worded it in your post just came off a little odd which I know you didn't mean it to-but the above is a suggestion how you can spin that. Because I guarantee you are not the first person to work to support themselves and scrape through the year, be a first gen and live in a big city with 0 opportunities for LA experience. Instead shine what you have done and don't focus on what you don't have.

With that WSU is extremely competitive to get acceptance as an OOS into the Pullman campus-like 1% from submission to offers. Not to say it's impossible though because here I am. WSU does not have a specific DVM/PhD combined program like some schools ie CSU and Minnesota. However, if that is what you are interested in I'm pretty sure you just have to meet with a committee to get it set up. We just don't have preset program that you can apply to if that makes sense. Unfortunately, I don't know much about doing a combined program so I would really recommend getting in touch with the recruiting office at WSU for more specifics on how that works.

For all of your applications I would make sure that you can articulate why you want a DVM and PhD. Why not just get a PhD or just a DVM.

I would also suggest on your vet experience if you can try getting into a specialty, exotics or shelter practice to help diversify your experience within the small animal world since LA experience opportunities are limited. Specifically for WSU they like to see everything you do so don't spare anything. Won a 1st place trophy in high school soccer add it. Donate clothes annually to the abuse shelter-add it. They really want to see you are a person outside of school/vet med. WSU is also huge on community within the profession and you having an idea where you would fit in in the profession so I suggest spending some time on their website looking at all the program and things we offer as a veterinary school.

Once you take your GRE you can also go on the WSU website and see what tier you end up in for interview purposes. Your academics and research are really strong, so work on strengthening and diversifying your animal, vet, and extracurriculars if you can. Get yourself some fantastic LORs and write awesome essays and I think you'll have a decent shot. As I said before though make sure you can articulate the DVM/PhD vs just getting one of them because this is a huge reason many DVM/PhD candidates get rejected

Thank you! I appreciate the info!


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[supershorty]

I'd strongly encourage you to think hard about your career goals and determine whether a dual degree program is really the best way to go about it versus doing the 2 degrees consecutively. Most of the formal dual programs will have you do the PhD in the middle of the DVM, and I'm not convinced that it's necessarily the best way to become a good scientist and put together a high quality body of work compared to doing them separately and not having that time limit of when you need to go back hanging over your head. I'm a dual degree student and I sometimes wish I'd approached getting the 2 degrees in a different way.

 

[Doctah2727]

I'd strongly encourage you to think hard about your career goals and determine whether a dual degree program is really the best way to go about it versus doing the 2 degrees consecutively. Most of the formal dual programs will have you do the PhD in the middle of the DVM, and I'm not convinced that it's necessarily the best way to become a good scientist and put together a high quality body of work compared to doing them separately and not having that time limit of when you need to go back hanging over your head. I'm a dual degree student and I sometimes wish I'd approached getting the 2 degrees in a different way.

Yeah, I’ve thought about the structure of the program and how that may be difficult. I’m just not sure the time it would take to obtain both degrees consecutively would be right for me. For my current interests in research and vetmed, I think it would be great to tie the two together and try to further advance my knowledge in each field simultaneously. The main problem I see is retaining the knowledge from the first two didactic years of vet school after completing the PhD.

 

[ajs513]

I’m not sure how other schools do it, but at Penn the VMD/PhD program pays for all of your vet school. The curriculum is changing so this may be different, but you currently do your first three years of vet school with some PhD classes mixed in, then the rest of your PhD (really the majority of it is here), then your clinical year. Students do find it difficult to jump back in but everyone has successfully done it so I guess that says something. Supershorty is obviously in a better position than I am to speak to its difficulty though as I’m not a dual degree student. At penn at least, I’d think that the savings of around $300,000 would be worth it though.

 

[supershorty]

Most programs do not fully subsidize your education. All of them, to my knowledge, do at least partially.

@OP, what is it that you want to do ultimately? The reason I ask is because if you're wanting to end up in academia, I think taking more time and doing a more in-depth PhD may be better than a slammed-into-4-years one.

 

[Doctah2727]

Most programs do not fully subsidize your education. All of them, to my knowledge, do at least partially.

@OP, what is it that you want to do ultimately? The reason I ask is because if you're wanting to end up in academia, I think taking more time and doing a more in-depth PhD may be better than a slammed-into-4-years one.

Ultimately, I would like the options both degrees give me. You can do research as a doctor, but you can’t practice veterinary medicine as a researcher. I know of vets that primarily work in academia and also help out in general practice clinics too and I think that variety is healthy and combats any monotony that may present itself from solely GP or solely research.


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[supershorty]

Ultimately, I would like the options both degrees give me. You can do research as a doctor, but you can’t practice veterinary medicine as a researcher. I know of vets that primarily work in academia and also help out in general practice clinics too and I think that variety is healthy and combats any monotony that may present itself from solely GP or solely research.


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I mean this in the kindest way possible, but you'll need a better answer than that for interviews. Why does your desired career path require that you do both degrees and do both degrees simultaneously?

 

[somebun]

Do you have a specific reason for a dual PhD/DMV? As you said, you can do research as a doctor. I know several lab animal veterinarians who still do research. I am not sure you need the PhD for what you are describing. Also, why do both at once? Most people who choose to do both also do not do both simultaneously- a PhD is a whole different beast then a DVM and combining them is really difficult due to the timing. Dual programs require you to finish both within the period of the program, while PhDs “in the wild” can be 4-8 years. The dual programs are also very competitive to get into - most places who offer only have 2-3 spots. I would just talk to some people in the field and see if it really is the best option for you. Ultimately if you want to do it, go for it; you know your reasons better than I ever can.

 

[Doctah2727]

I mean this in the kindest way possible, but you'll need a better answer than that for interviews. Why does your desired career path require that you do both degrees and do both degrees simultaneously?

I appreciate the input. To start off, I see that many students who complete the dual degree program go on to academia either as a professors or specifically professors at a veterinary teaching facility, and that appeals to me. Having completed such a rigorous program, I believe it would you apart from other job applicants who only have a PhD and being such a competitive market for jobs in academia, I see that as very advantageous. Also, I hear time and time again how cutthroat careers in research are and given that so many people get burnt out on research, it would be very nice to have another degree/career to fall back on. The accelerated program is tough yes, but I would not want to do both degrees consecutively as possibly ~12 years opposed to 7-8 sounds great for what you're graduating with. Another thing is the financial aspect. Most of the time you are fully funded throughout your PhD; however, even after completing your PhD, you'll still face a mountain of debt in vet school that will take years to repay. Having an option where I can fulfill my interest in research and vetmed by obtaining degrees in both while also saving a significant amount of money would leave me with an overall better quality of life/happiness.
So essentially the reasons are as follows: opens more doors by setting myself apart from others, fulfills both interests I have leaving me with more options to choose what I enjoy most as a career, and saves me significant time and money.

Edit: While your point about the crammed PhD is valid, I believe many institutions still hold the quality of the PhD in a high regard as there are so many instances of DVM/PhD graduates being hired in academia/residencies/internships.

 

[Doctah2727]

Do you have a specific reason for a dual PhD/DMV? As you said, you can do research as a doctor. I know several lab animal veterinarians who still do research. I am not sure you need the PhD for what you are describing. Also, why do both at once? Most people who choose to do both also do not do both simultaneously- a PhD is a whole different beast then a DVM and combining them is really difficult due to the timing. Dual programs require you to finish both within the period of the program, while PhDs “in the wild” can be 4-8 years. The dual programs are also very competitive to get into - most places who offer only have 2-3 spots. I would just talk to some people in the field and see if it really is the best option for you. Ultimately if you want to do it, go for it; you know your reasons better than I ever can.

Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. The faster completion and financial incentives appeal to me. I see it as a crazy challenge but also really fun--I get to learn veterinary medicine and have the freedom to research what I want for a PhD WHILE saving a boat load of time and money? Count me in! While it is without a doubt insanely difficult, I love school and I would love to have the opportunity to learn so much about vetmed and integrate my research skill/interests with it. Also, all schools I have researched say that they consider your application for the DVM program by itself regardless of accepted/denied admission into the dual degree program so I thought why not apply to it. My reply to @supershorty goes into a little more depth about my reasons.

 

[supershorty]

I would love to have the opportunity to learn so much about vetmed and integrate my research skill/interests with it.

For what it's worth, this is your best one-line answer so far.

I'm not trying to pick on you, I swear - I just know that when I interviewed for the PhD portion of my program (my program does separate interviews for the DVM and then the PhD/dual degree part), I was asked that question or a variation of it 3-4 times over the course of my 1 hour interview, so having a solid answer for it is really important. I think you have a decent shot.

 

[Doctah2727]

For what it's worth, this is your best one-line answer so far.

I'm not trying to pick on you, I swear - I just know that when I interviewed for the PhD portion of my program (my program does separate interviews for the DVM and then the PhD/dual degree part), I was asked that question or a variation of it 3-4 times over the course of my 1 hour interview, so having a solid answer for it is really important. I think you have a decent shot.

No worries, I appreciate any insight I can get! I’ll definitely work on my answer to that. Thanks for the advice.