WAMC as a re-applicant

[veil_ca]

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[Mr.Smile12]

No shadowing/clinical experience and no non-clinical service orientation hours likely doomed your application. You must have 150 hours at submission for service orientation activities to avoid getting screened out at most schools (food distribution, shelter volunteer, job/tax preparation, transportation services, or housing rehabilitation). GPA may be lower than the average, but not disqualifying compared to the lack of service orientation. Teaching, tutoring, and mentoring are academic activities shared by practically all prehealth applicants and thus does not help you stand out for interviews.

Be aware that as a reapplicant, you must show significant improvement. Projected hours do not count. You must hit at least 150 hours before submitting, even if you have to wait out a year. You do not want to go through this process a third time. Add DO schools; you should get attention from Campbell with appropriate service hours.

 

[Faha]

It was your very low clinical and shadowing hours and complete lack of non clinical volunteering that resulted in your poor cycle. Virtual scribing has minimal value. Your clinical volunteering hours are now adequate. You do need 150+ hours of non clinical volunteering such as food bank, homeless shelter, etc. before you submit your application. If you do not have those hours you should wait until June 2026 before reapplying.
I suggest these schools when you have 150+ hours of non clinical volunteering:
UNC
East Carolina
Wake Forest
Methodist (when it opens)
NOVA MD
Belmont
Alice Walton
TCU
Rosalind Franklin
Medical College Wisconsin
Western Michigan
Oakland Beaumont
Vermont
Quinnipiac
UMass
Albany
New York Medical College
Hackensack
Drexel
Temple
Jefferson
Penn State
George Washington
Virginia Commonwealth
Eastern Virginia
Roseman
For DO schools I suggest these
CUSOM
VCOM (all schools)
WVSOM
PCOM Georgia
ACOM
KCU-COM
ATSU-KCOM
DMU-COM
AZCOM
CCOM
NYITCOM
Touro-NY

 

[veil_ca]

@Mr.Smile12 @Faha Thank you both so much for your responses, and Faha for the list. A few follow-up questions:

1. When you say I must have 150+ hours at submission, do you mean in volunteering overall or for clinical and non-clinical each?

2. Would you all suggest reducing my hours in the ED significantly (or maybe even stop going) in favor of hitting up my new non-clinical placement? This volunteering opportunity is with a local nonprofit. They run a thrift store (thousands of donations a day which they need help processing) and use the profits for things like a food pantry and counseling. I was planning on getting involved in the store and the advocacy groups.

3. What would you say is the best time to turn in my primary application? I am now wondering if I should get my application in immediately when it opens, or should I take a few weeks after it opens where I can volunteer every day to really boost those hours? I could easily acquire 50+ hours in two weeks if I treated it like a job during that time.

4. I’d be lying if I said I haven’t been feeling pretty beat up about my low GPA. I meant to include this in the original post, but do you all think I am going to be ok without doing a post-bacc? I have been looking at those programs and also one-year master’s, but the costs are astronomical...

5. Is the longevity of a volunteer placement or the number of hours more important? I am thinking about my hospice placement, which was placed on hold for the winter due to a COVID surge. All the patients I was seeing have passed since and I have been considering whether or not to go back and ask for new patients. I don’t know if I should just focus on other volunteer opportunities. I was making visits once or twice a month from last January to November, but as you can see, I only garnered about 40 hours total (visits are only 2 hours long) and I am wondering whether schools won’t like me having so few hours in this. However, I have had meaningful experiences that I wrote essays on.

Thank you again!

 

[Faha]

150 hours each for clinical and non clinical volunteering. You already appear to have 340 hours of clinical volunteering so concentrate on the 150 hours of non clinical volunteering. You should not submit your primary application until you have those hours. Working in a thrift store where you sort clothing does not appear to be what schools are looking for. You need an activity such as homeless shelter or a food bank where you have contact with people much less fortunate than you.

 

[veil_ca]

150 hours each for clinical and non clinical volunteering. You already appear to have 340 hours of clinical volunteering so concentrate on the 150 hours of non clinical volunteering. You should not submit your primary application until you have those hours. Working in a thrift store where you sort clothing does not appear to be what schools are looking for. You need an activity such as homeless shelter or a food bank where you have contact with people much less fortunate than you.

I understand. I actually only have ~140 hours of clinical volunteering but of course, this is not difficult to increase to 150.
The store is connected to the food bank, so I am trying to get involved there— I will redouble those efforts! Thank you.

 

[veil_ca]

@Goro Hi Mr. Goro, I was hoping I could solicit your advice as well. Sorry if I am not allowed to tag you! Could you please help me answer these questions?

I have been really struggling to find non-clinical opportunities available on weekends (I have classes + clinic on weekdays), and most of the ones I do find are focused around things like production and distribution without direct contact with underserved populations. I feel like it is meaningful to contribute to these organizations without necessarily speaking to the recipients, but is that all adcoms are looking for? I have some experiences with underserved populations from my clinical volunteering as well and I will be joining a free community clinic soon, too.

3. What would you say is the best time to turn in my primary application? I am now wondering if I should get my application in immediately when it opens, or should I take a few weeks after it opens where I can volunteer every day to really boost those hours? I could easily acquire 50+ hours in two weeks if I treated it like a job during that time.

4. I’d be lying if I said I haven’t been feeling pretty beat up about my low GPA. I meant to include this in the original post, but do you all think I am going to be ok without doing a post-bacc? I have been looking at those programs and also one-year master’s, but the costs are astronomical...

5. Is the longevity of a volunteer placement or the number of hours more important? I am thinking about my hospice placement, which was placed on hold for the winter due to a COVID surge. All the patients I was seeing have passed since and I have been considering whether or not to go back and ask for new patients. I don’t know if I should just focus on other volunteer opportunities. I was making visits once or twice a month from last January to November, but as you can see, I only garnered about 40 hours total (visits are only 2 hours long) and I am wondering whether schools won’t like me having so few hours in this. However, I have had meaningful experiences that I wrote essays on.

Thank you again!

 

[Goro]

We want you to show off your altruism. We want you to be of service to others less fortunate than you. This does not mean clinical exposure, because that's a separate requirement for medical school.

Ask around at your local houses of worship. Looking to planned parenthood, camps for sick kids, joining big brothers Big Sisters, joining Meals on Wheels, working at a soup kitchen, working at a food bank.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

@Mr.Smile12 @Faha Thank you both so much for your responses, and Faha for the list. A few follow-up questions:

1. When you say I must have 150+ hours at submission, do you mean in volunteering overall or for clinical and non-clinical each?

Each to avoid getting screened out. If you can only get 50 hours by submission time this year, you should delay a year unless you want to risk becoming a 3x reapplicant.

Clinical hours: I don't know if you have the experience. Virtual scribing doesn't count. Any hospital-based experience? Hospice volunteer can be clinical or non-clinical depending on your duties, but you only spent 20-40 hours, which I easily cross off to determine how much you are passionate about your activities. Only 100 hours in the ED are left it seems. I don't know about your MA being in a hospital, and your EMS course is training. So maybe you have the hours, but not enough in hospitals/academic settings for me to pass your application forward (if I were on a committee).

2. Would you all suggest reducing my hours in the ED significantly (or maybe even stop going) in favor of hitting up my new non-clinical placement? This volunteering opportunity is with a local nonprofit. They run a thrift store (thousands of donations a day which they need help processing) and use the profits for things like a food pantry and counseling. I was planning on getting involved in the store and the advocacy groups.

Maximize your time in a customer-facing front-line capacity if you do this non-profit opportunity. I don't know what you are doing in the ED, but you have EMS training ongoing. I don't know how you are scheduling your time.

3. What would you say is the best time to turn in my primary application? I am now wondering if I should get my application in immediately when it opens, or should I take a few weeks after it opens where I can volunteer every day to really boost those hours? I could easily acquire 50+ hours in two weeks if I treated it like a job during that time.

I suggest delaying until you get the hours. You don't want to be a 3x applicant.

4. I’d be lying if I said I haven’t been feeling pretty beat up about my low GPA. I meant to include this in the original post, but do you all think I am going to be ok without doing a post-bacc? I have been looking at those programs and also one-year master’s, but the costs are astronomical...

We don't have your transcript. I don't have a sense you have an upward GPA trend since you haven't no disclosed that information. What do your UNC prehealth advisors say?

5. Is the longevity of a volunteer placement or the number of hours more important? I am thinking about my hospice placement, which was placed on hold for the winter due to a COVID surge. All the patients I was seeing have passed since and I have been considering whether or not to go back and ask for new patients. I don’t know if I should just focus on other volunteer opportunities. I was making visits once or twice a month from last January to November, but as you can see, I only garnered about 40 hours total (visits are only 2 hours long) and I am wondering whether schools won’t like me having so few hours in this. However, I have had meaningful experiences that I wrote essays on.

Yes, longevity plays a factor so you don't look like you're box-checking or trying to do it just to get into medical school. You can look into it.

What feedback have you gotten from the in-state schools where you applied? I'm sure UNC may be overwhelmed, but ECU is specific about wanting people who are focused on serving under-resourced counties in the state.

You must apply to DO schools. Your GPA is in the middle area where you could do a postbac to bump it up, but if you did well in your upper-level biomed classes, you could get interest in the DO pool (Campbell, PCOM, LECOM, VCOM). You can be a physician if you don't let your ego stop you from a DO degree.

 

[veil_ca]

Each to avoid getting screened out. If you can only get 50 hours by submission time this year, you should delay a year unless you want to risk becoming a 3x reapplicant.

Clinical hours: I don't know if you have the experience. Virtual scribing doesn't count. Any hospital-based experience? Hospice volunteer can be clinical or non-clinical depending on your duties, but you only spent 20-40 hours, which I easily cross off to determine how much you are passionate about your activities. Only 100 hours in the ED are left it seems. I don't know about your MA being in a hospital, and your EMS course is training. So maybe you have the hours, but not enough in hospitals/academic settings for me to pass your application forward (if I were on a committee).

I am working as an MA in a primary care clinic (rooming patients, taking histories, injections, etc.). Is it necessary to also have hospital experience? I have been trying to get a job as an ED tech, but weirdly enough, they prefer a CNA license over EMT so I’ve signed up to take the CNA exam. My hospice experience involved visiting patients for companionship while their family members were busy. My ED volunteer experience is just taking a little bit of weight off the nurses by helping with transporting patients/visitors + bringing patients food + companionship for patients in the waiting room and patient rooms — we do get a lot of underserved populations here. I’m honestly not sure how volunteer hours are classified as clinical vs. non-clinical because I can’t perform any clinical services as a volunteer (liability). I’m going to start volunteering in a free mobile clinic if that helps.

Maximize your time in a customer-facing front-line capacity if you do this non-profit opportunity. I don't know what you are doing in the ED, but you have EMS training ongoing. I don't know how you are scheduling your time.

I was actually able to get into the pantry at this non-profit! So I will be volunteering in the pantry helping clients pick up food. I received my EMT license last year and used it to be hired as an MA.

We don't have your transcript. I don't have a sense you have an upward GPA trend since you haven't no disclosed that information. What do your UNC prehealth advisors say?

I sort of do, I guess? My worst year was sophomore year.
cGPA 3.63 —> 3.48 —> 3.58. After first sem senior year, 3.65. If I get all A’s this semester, it will be a 3.71.
sGPA 3.31 —> 3.15 —> 3.38. Now 3.41, all A’s this semester would be 3.50.

My pre health advisors had no problem with me applying last year even with those few hours so I’m not sure I trust them much. But essentially they said the MCAT could make up for the GPA.

Yes, longevity plays a factor so you don't look like you're box-checking or trying to do it just to get into medical school. You can look into it.

To be so honest, aren’t we all having to do these extra activities to get into medical school? In my opinion, volunteering is something that should be a choice that you can make when you have the mental headspace and time to want to do it and enjoy it. As applicants, we have that choice taken away from us because we are forced to do it to have a chance. If schools are checking off a box that I have to have 300 hours of volunteering, isn’t it ridiculous that I have to pretend I’m not? I’m not saying I don’t enjoy the volunteer activities I do (they have been really meaningful) but I would much rather have that time free to study or work or write essays or even just relax, you know? To me it seems there are more qualified applicants than spots so admissions just needs to keep making up new standards of worthiness to sort us out. I was just talking to the doctor I work for (who went to med school in the 90’s) and he couldn’t wrap his head around why premeds need to have clinical experience just to apply when med school + residency ARE clinical experience.

Sorry to rant. Feeling frustrated and exhausted, as you know 🙂

What feedback have you gotten from the in-state schools where you applied? I'm sure UNC may be overwhelmed, but ECU is specific about wanting people who are focused on serving under-resourced counties in the state.

No feedback from UNC. Still waiting to hear back from ECU! WVU said low sGPA (MCAT helps) and low volunteers hours but good patient care experiences, leadership, and research. WMed said good MCAT, GPA, healthcare experiences and suggested adding clinical hours + unserved pop’s community service. ETSU said low sGPA (helped by MCAT and finishing strong), need to diversify experiences, continue primary care work and ER volunteering.

You must apply to DO schools. Your GPA is in the middle area where you could do a postbac to bump it up, but if you did well in your upper-level biomed classes, you could get interest in the DO pool (Campbell, PCOM, LECOM, VCOM). You can be a physician if you don't let your ego stop you from a DO degree.

Yes, I will consider Fata’s list of suggestions.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I am working as an MA in a primary care clinic (rooming patients, taking histories, injections, etc.). Is it necessary to also have hospital experience? I have been trying to get a job as an ED tech, but weirdly enough, they prefer a CNA license over EMT so I’ve signed up to take the CNA exam. My hospice experience involved visiting patients for companionship while their family members were busy. My ED volunteer experience is just taking a little bit of weight off the nurses by helping with transporting patients/visitors + bringing patients food + companionship for patients in the waiting room and patient rooms — we do get a lot of underserved populations here. I’m honestly not sure how volunteer hours are classified as clinical vs. non-clinical because I can’t perform any clinical services as a volunteer (liability). I’m going to start volunteering in a free mobile clinic if that helps.

It helps. The advantage of having some experience in a hospital is that it's where most of your training as a medical student and resident will take place. You might have some with your clinic experience, but the trends in healthcare focus on hospitals. I just want you to maximize your opportunities and not have any adcoms ding you on this.

I was actually able to get into the pantry at this non-profit! So I will be volunteering in the pantry helping clients pick up food. I received my EMT license last year and used it to be hired as an MA.

Great! The WAMC exercise helps us all identify areas where you can spotlight a little more in the process. Make sure you have an idea how many hours you do this and how you describe the activity on your AMCAS/AACOMAS.

I sort of do, I guess? My worst year was sophomore year.
cGPA 3.63 —> 3.48 —> 3.58. After first sem senior year, 3.65. If I get all A’s this semester, it will be a 3.71.
sGPA 3.31 —> 3.15 —> 3.38. Now 3.41, all A’s this semester would be 3.50.

My pre health advisors had no problem with me applying last year even with those few hours so I’m not sure I trust them much. But essentially they said the MCAT could make up for the GPA.

From my experience, a GPA rise can make up for the overall GPA. Good screeners and adcoms can focus on your performance in upper-level (recommended) biomedical science classes as an argument favoring an interview during holistic review. (It doesn't guarantee anything otherwise.)

To be so honest, aren’t we all having to do these extra activities to get into medical school? In my opinion, volunteering is something that should be a choice that you can make when you have the mental headspace and time to want to do it and enjoy it. As applicants, we have that choice taken away from us because we are forced to do it to have a chance. If schools are checking off a box that I have to have 300 hours of volunteering, isn’t it ridiculous that I have to pretend I’m not? I’m not saying I don’t enjoy the volunteer activities I do (they have been really meaningful) but I would much rather have that time free to study or work or write essays or even just relax, you know? To me it seems there are more qualified applicants than spots so admissions just needs to keep making up new standards of worthiness to sort us out. I was just talking to the doctor I work for (who went to med school in the 90’s) and he couldn’t wrap his head around why premeds need to have clinical experience just to apply when med school + residency ARE clinical experience.

Sorry to rant. Feeling frustrated and exhausted, as you know 🙂

We get that. There will be many things you will do in medical education (and real life) for the simple reason of "because I said so." 🙂

Believe it or not, compared to the general population your age, premeds are very smart and CAN find ways to balance the demands of their lives with a reasonable schedule. It might not be as easy as you want, but people have worked, volunteered, and studied to get into medical school... many more have stretched their schedules, so there is appropriate focus wherever needed and necessary. In the end, I'm not going to criticize your choices in your schedule, but I make it clear what the expectations are among the adcoms I used to work with. That's what makes the medical school admissions process "competitive"... compared to other health professions admissions processes (see pharmacy, podiatry). Healthcare now involves hundreds of different job types, so you need to show your work why you want to go for "physician." *

The problem is that we EXPECT more from physicians and medical students. I point out I like applicants who are uncomfortable immersed in uncomfortable situations or with uncomfortable people. This means you have to have done the work (hours) and can reflect on those experiences authentically (essays, interviews, post-admissions stories to share with faculty and students).

Yes, I have talked with faculty who said they could never get into medical school with the current expectations. The ones who are on adcoms are especially sensitive to making sure we don't erect barriers just to narrow our pool (which is what it feels like to applicants). Sometimes, legitimate reasons exist for putting up additional course requirements or requiring SJTs or recorded video interviews.

Whether you drink the Kool Aid or not, we want physician leaders who are passionate about their privileged positions as healers and advocates for their communities. I understand you don't get "true" clinical experience until you get into medical school, but we also don't want people who figure out medicine isn't for them once they start. Dropping out of medical school is disservice to at least TWO future physicians (the one dropping out, the one who could have filled in the seat). But given the amount of debt you agree to take on as a medical student, we SHOULD be making sure you have clinical experience and supportive mentors to assure us that you have the make-up to be an excellent physician.

* More competitive IMO: vet med and physician assistant where it seems the hours needed in certain experience buckets rise every year.

No feedback from UNC. Still waiting to hear back from ECU! WVU said low sGPA (MCAT helps) and low volunteers hours but good patient care experiences, leadership, and research. WMed said good MCAT, GPA, healthcare experiences and suggested adding clinical hours + unserved pop’s community service. ETSU said low sGPA (helped by MCAT and finishing strong), need to diversify experiences, continue primary care work and ER volunteering.

Great job! I hope our advice helps you clarify and confirm these suggestions.

 

[LindaAccepted]

You've received great advice on where you need to improve your qualifications and school choices.

I just want to add that as an reapplicant, you want to highlight in your application the growth that has taken place since you last applied. What did you learn from the additional hours of clinical experience and community service? That reflection shows that you weren't just box checking (even if that's what you are doing). It will also show that you know what you're getting into and that have the cultural fluency to work with and treat people from many different backgrounds.

IOW, don't just submit what you did last time.

 

[veil_ca]

It helps. The advantage of having some experience in a hospital is that it's where most of your training as a medical student and resident will take place. You might have some with your clinic experience, but the trends in healthcare focus on hospitals. I just want you to maximize your opportunities and not have any adcoms ding you on this.


Great! The WAMC exercise helps us all identify areas where you can spotlight a little more in the process. Make sure you have an idea how many hours you do this and how you describe the activity on your AMCAS/AACOMAS.

From my experience, a GPA rise can make up for the overall GPA. Good screeners and adcoms can focus on your performance in upper-level (recommended) biomedical science classes as an argument favoring an interview during holistic review. (It doesn't guarantee anything otherwise.)


We get that. There will be many things you will do in medical education (and real life) for the simple reason of "because I said so." 🙂

Believe it or not, compared to the general population your age, premeds are very smart and CAN find ways to balance the demands of their lives with a reasonable schedule. It might not be as easy as you want, but people have worked, volunteered, and studied to get into medical school... many more have stretched their schedules, so there is appropriate focus wherever needed and necessary. In the end, I'm not going to criticize your choices in your schedule, but I make it clear what the expectations are among the adcoms I used to work with. That's what makes the medical school admissions process "competitive"... compared to other health professions admissions processes (see pharmacy, podiatry). Healthcare now involves hundreds of different job types, so you need to show your work why you want to go for "physician." *

The problem is that we EXPECT more from physicians and medical students. I point out I like applicants who are uncomfortable immersed in uncomfortable situations or with uncomfortable people. This means you have to have done the work (hours) and can reflect on those experiences authentically (essays, interviews, post-admissions stories to share with faculty and students).

Yes, I have talked with faculty who said they could never get into medical school with the current expectations. The ones who are on adcoms are especially sensitive to making sure we don't erect barriers just to narrow our pool (which is what it feels like to applicants). Sometimes, legitimate reasons exist for putting up additional course requirements or requiring SJTs or recorded video interviews.

Whether you drink the Kool Aid or not, we want physician leaders who are passionate about their privileged positions as healers and advocates for their communities. I understand you don't get "true" clinical experience until you get into medical school, but we also don't want people who figure out medicine isn't for them once they start. Dropping out of medical school is disservice to at least TWO future physicians (the one dropping out, the one who could have filled in the seat). But given the amount of debt you agree to take on as a medical student, we SHOULD be making sure you have clinical experience and supportive mentors to assure us that you have the make-up to be an excellent physician.

* More competitive IMO: vet med and physician assistant where it seems the hours needed in certain experience buckets rise every year.


Great job! I hope our advice helps you clarify and confirm these suggestions.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I really appreciate you taking the time to share the perception on the adcom side. I know I can do this but I wish I didn’t have to push myself so hard… but that’s medicine, I guess 🙂 I’m hoping the advantage of the gap year will be a chance to take a break from academics at least and, if I get accepted, go into medical school having recovered/replenished a little from the stress of undergrad before facing the stress of medical school. Or at least that’s the hope 🙂 Thank you so much! I will work hard on achieving those hours and trying to learn from my experiences.

 

[veil_ca]

You've received great advice on where you need to improve your qualifications and school choices.

I just want to add that as an reapplicant, you want to highlight in your application the growth that has taken place since you last applied. What did you learn from the additional hours of clinical experience and community service? That reflection shows that you weren't just box checking (even if that's what you are doing). It will also show that you know what you're getting into and that have the cultural fluency to work with and treat people from many different backgrounds.

IOW, don't just submit what you did last time.

Thank you! This is definitely super important. It’s a little hard, because I feel like I haven’t fundamentally changed all that much as a person since my last submission… but I have definitely learned some new skills. We’ll see what I can write up!