WAMC- Minimal experience hours, lots of non-vet activites

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Salzard

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Hi! I am a first time applicant from PA interested in wildlife/conservation medicine and pathology. I am also interested in research and completing a PhD or Masters while in (combined program) or after vet school.

Applying to: Illinois, Washington, Cornell, Wisconsin, NC State, UC Davis (maybe?)

Cumulative GPA: 4.0
Science GPA: 4.0
last 45: 4.0

Any degrees achieved: BS in Veterinary and Biomedical Sciences, Minors in Wildlife science and One Health

Veterinary Experience:
- Shadowed at Banfield as part of their internship program (50hrs)
- Intern at small animal ER with multiple specialists (300 hrs)
- Shadowed at state diagnostic lab (current- hoping for 50 hrs)

Animal Experience:
- Zoo volunteer (300 hrs, highschool)
- Mouse care from lab? (50 hrs)

Research Experience:
- Data analysis for retrospective epidemiology study (200 hrs)
- Presented posters
- Field assistant for salamander surveys (250 hrs)
- Independent project in immunology lab (700 hrs)

Awards/scholarships:
- Library literacy award for poster
- Received grant for research
- 3rd place in entrepreneurship competition (highschool)
- Various merit scholarships for high gpa/financial need

Extracurriculars:
- Pre-Veterinary Club (Fall 2022 to Present)
- Small and Exotic Animals Club (Fall 2022 to Present)
- Student Chapter of the Wildlife Society (Spring 2023 to Present)
- Creative Arts Club (Fall 2023 to Spring 2024)
- Pep Band (Fall 2022 to Present)
- Concert/Campus Band (Fall 2022 to Present)
- Campus Orchestra (Fall 2023 to Present)
- Science Olympiad Volunteer (Fall 2022 to Spring 2023)
- Camp counselor (Spring 2024, Fall 2024)
- Project Nestwatch volunteer

Employment:
- Student Manager at dining hall (over 1300 hours)

Concerns:
I know I have very low animal and veterinary experience hours, but I have high research hours and tons of non-vet experiences. My instate is UPenn, but the high cost and location (Philly) makes it hard for me to feel like it would be worth going there. I also have financial restraints, which heavily limits the schools I can apply to.
 
Hi! I am a first time applicant from PA interested in wildlife/conservation medicine and pathology. I am also interested in research and completing a PhD or Masters while in (combined program) or after vet school.

Applying to: Illinois, Washington, Cornell, Wisconsin, NC State, UC Davis (maybe?)

Cumulative GPA: 4.0
Science GPA: 4.0
last 45: 4.0

Any degrees achieved: BS in Veterinary and Biomedical Sciences, Minors in Wildlife science and One Health

Veterinary Experience:
- Shadowed at Banfield as part of their internship program (50hrs)
- Intern at small animal ER with multiple specialists (300 hrs)
- Shadowed at state diagnostic lab (current- hoping for 50 hrs)

Animal Experience:
- Zoo volunteer (300 hrs, highschool)
- Mouse care from lab? (50 hrs)

Research Experience:
- Data analysis for retrospective epidemiology study (200 hrs)
- Presented posters
- Field assistant for salamander surveys (250 hrs)
- Independent project in immunology lab (700 hrs)

Awards/scholarships:
- Library literacy award for poster
- Received grant for research
- 3rd place in entrepreneurship competition (highschool)
- Various merit scholarships for high gpa/financial need

Extracurriculars:
- Pre-Veterinary Club (Fall 2022 to Present)
- Small and Exotic Animals Club (Fall 2022 to Present)
- Student Chapter of the Wildlife Society (Spring 2023 to Present)
- Creative Arts Club (Fall 2023 to Spring 2024)
- Pep Band (Fall 2022 to Present)
- Concert/Campus Band (Fall 2022 to Present)
- Campus Orchestra (Fall 2023 to Present)
- Science Olympiad Volunteer (Fall 2022 to Spring 2023)
- Camp counselor (Spring 2024, Fall 2024)
- Project Nestwatch volunteer

Employment:
- Student Manager at dining hall (over 1300 hours)

Concerns:
I know I have very low animal and veterinary experience hours, but I have high research hours and tons of non-vet experiences. My instate is UPenn, but the high cost and location (Philly) makes it hard for me to feel like it would be worth going there. I also have financial restraints, which heavily limits the schools I can apply to.
I am not as familiar with combined degree admissions specifically, tagging @supershorty @indysadventures (the first two SDNers that come to mind). I'll give my thoughts though!

I think with your academic stats, you will have really good chances for a standard DVM program. You would sail through any academic-based cutoffs. Whether or not you have enough experience/your written portions are good enough to get interviews is much more subjective. Are you able to get more experience hours before applying? I still think you have decent (at least) chances of getting interviews, but the more hours the better.

Who will be writing your LORs? How do you think that's going to go?

With your academic stats, I would also consider expanding your schools to include all the schools that allow residency chances after first year. Ohio, NC State, Washington, UC Davis (apparently, I only recently learned this!), Mizzou I think, and possibly Colorado for combined degree students (always verify residency changeability yourself, though).
 
The GPAs are obviously going to be very competitive anywhere, nice job on those, OP. Your vet hours are on the low side, sure, but if you're going to want a research/path focus, I don't think it would be disqualifying. I think your application would be quite competitive at my alma mater (whose admissions I'm obviously most familiar with). I would caution you that since you currently only have 50 hours in path, be a little careful about how much you lean into wanting to do that in your essays. I think it's easy for people to feel really enthusiastic about something they're currently doing and don't have a lot of experience with, so just make sure that your essays are reflecting why you want that, more than just "this is neat."

If you're going to be wanting to do a dual program with the PhD in the middle of your DVM, don't apply to Ohio - they do not have a formal dual program. However ... my understanding is that it's not uncommon, at this point, for anatomic path residencies to include a PhD, so that's another option for you to pursue the training that you want. The specific admissions process for dual programs is really variable by program - at some institutions, the DVM and PhD admissions are completely separate, some the dual program has its own combined process, etc. When you're asking people for letters of rec, if you do decide to apply for dual programs, keep in mind that you may need multiple letters from the same person - one for your DVM admission and one specifically for your dual program admission. Again, this varies a lot by institution, so make sure you read over the requirements carefully. The tuition remission for dual programs also varies enormously. Some programs are able to offer basically a full ride for the DVM through the dual program, so I'd look into those. It's been a few years since I was compiling data on that and unfortunately, I don't know that I have the files anymore, but UC Davis and Michigan State were both doing that.**

** If I discover I didn't lose these files, I'll come back and update this because there were more, but I can't remember who they were.
Edit: at the time that I was looking into this in 2024:
- UC Davis covered all tuition + provided a stipend for all 8 years of the program
- Cornell, Penn, Michigan State, and Kansas State covered all tuition
- Oklahoma State, UGA, and LSU covered the tuition for DVM Y3 and Y4
- Minnesota and Wisconsin contributed a total of $50K toward Y3 and Y4 (combined). How this worked at UMN was dependent on when the PhD was done.
- Mississippi State and NC State contributed $10K per DVM year toward tuition
- Oregon State did not have any tuition remission
* These data were gathered through Zoom or phone calls with the deans or their representatives for these programs. I seem to have lost the spreadsheet that was associated with the specific numbers, but did have the Powerpoint I presented to my own program on how it could improve :laugh:

Make sure you have a really clear idea of why you want to do both degrees together, if you decide to do a dual program, vs doing a PhD later, as that will almost certainly get asked in interviews. Good luck!
 
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So I’m not a dual degree student at the moment, but I might be in the near future …..

I partially chose UMN because they discussed with me that I had some flexibility to decide if I wanted to complete a PhD or not, and there’s definitely support there if I want to move forward with it. I love research but need a bit of time to decide if I want to do a PhD and residency, or just residency.

I did do some research into dual programs, but I ultimately decided not to apply to the dual programs at any school because I wasn’t 100% sure and I am very clinically-leaning in my interests. I was very wishy-washy and I didn’t want my indecisiveness to hurt my applications.

All that to say….. Shorty has mentioned the details that I largely remember from my research. I think many schools consider you within the DVM pool first and the PhD pool second, though it can vary from school to school. So, you can apply to the dual program, but only be admitted to the DVM, though you won’t be just offered only a PhD position. But, definitely get an idea of how the admissions process works at each school as you assess where you’d like to apply. Preparation and research can only help you here!

The biggest thing is to make sure you can explain WHY you need both of the degrees you’re seeking, why it’s not just PhD or DVM/VMD but both. Considering this will be critical in how you represent your clinical and research interests. I agree with Shorty that with your limited clin path experience you’ll want to make sure you’re navigating it carefully - you can certainly discuss your interests but you may not have enough targeted clinical/research experience to convince a potential PhD advisor. Make sure that you provide concrete examples and evidence to back up any claims!

I applied for PhD programs in history a loooonnggg time ago (didn’t get into anything, not sad about it now, happy that happened). But, it was a lot of highly detailed discussions with targeted potential mentors. I had to be able to convince a potential advisor that I was capable of stepping into a PhD program.

I know when I was rejected from every history PhD, I was upset, but now I can look back and say that I had a pretty cursory understanding of what I was getting into, and I think advisors could sense it. So, be ready to explain why you’re choosing this path, have solid anecdotes and talking points that will feel natural. I’d make sure that you have your bases covered with LORs and a strong narrative as to how the PhD is a necessary part of your DVM journey.

I do worry that your clinical hours are also a little low overall, but with your GPA and goals I think you’ll be likely to at least get to the interview stage at schools. I’d personally be reasonable and consider applying, as PP has said, to any schools where you’ll be competitive for the DVM program that allows for in-state tuition after the first year. I think you have a really good chance to get into either a DVM or dual program, but it’ll really come down to having stellar essays and LORs that show admissions committees that you’re ready for a dual degree.

The other thing to just keep in mind is that there is likely to be an impact on dual program funding due to the changes at the federal level. I think a lot of us interested in PhDs are nervous that funding will be ripped away, and with good reason. Because of this, it may become a bit more difficult to get into a dual degree going forward - I’d have a solid back-up plan - applying to affordable OOS DVM programs would potentially give you the ability to afford your degree if, say, you don’t get into the Penn dual degree but are admitted to the VMD program. Penn is very expensive and while worth it if funded fully through a dual degree, I’d be worried with the new student loan requirements if only attending the traditional program. With your stats, I think you have a decent shot at a cheaper program and if possible, I’d apply to at least one mentioned by PP as a backup.

Again, while I didn’t apply to a dual program, I may very well end up in one, and I definitely built my application around my strong interest in medical oncology. I enjoy writing and editing around themes, so if you ever need someone to read over anything, feel free to reach out and best of luck!
 
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