MD WAMC? Trad 3.9/527

[morak]

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I’m planning on applying in the 2025-26 cycle, so this is pretty early and more of a reality check/request for critiques than a true WAMC. Here are my answers to all the required questions; please let me know if you need additional details!

1. cGPA and sGPA as calculated by AMCAS or AACOMA: cGPA: 3.99, sGPA: 3.92 (not exact, haven’t created an AMCAS profile yet)
2. MCAT score(s) and breakdown: 527
3. State of residence or country of citizenship (if non-US): [Redacted]
4. Ethnicity and/or race: ORM, Male
5. Undergraduate institution or category: [Redacted]
6. Clinical experience (volunteer and non-volunteer): 1100 hrs as a volunteer 911 EMT-B crew chief in a fairly busy regional service that hits at least 4-5 calls/day. I’ve personally attended ~270 calls and ran ~185 of those as the primary caregiver.
7. Research experience and productivity: ~2000 hrs in a systems biology lab [redacted]. Currently have a 3rd author CNS paper in review and am in the process of writing a first-author paper that will likely be published in a mid-impact CNS-family journal. I have a college-provided research scholarship for funding and 3 first-author posters at college symposiums.
8. Shadowing experience and specialties represented: 80 hrs primary care/IM, 50 hrs GI, and 30 hrs (projected) oncology.
9. Non-clinical volunteering:
   1. 120 hrs as a Red Cross DAT Officer (Disaster Action Team; I connect with people affected by disasters, figure out their needs, and coordinate a Red Cross response). During the recent Florida hurricanes, I took on more regional coordination/ leadership roles since senior leaders were flying south to assist in the hurricane response.
   2. 35 hrs as a reading/literacy mentor for underserved elementary school students
   3. 30 hrs in a local community food pantry supporting the homeless
   4. 30 hrs as an ESL tutor for low-SES immigrants
   5. 60 hrs as a 1:1 tutor/mentor for FGLI students
10. Other extracurricular activities (including athletics, military service, gap year activities, leadership, teaching, etc): Definitely the weakest part of my app right now
    1. 325 hrs as a private independent tutor (paid) for high school students (STEM, English, History, college counseling, ACT/SAT) and MCAT.
    2. 50 hrs organizing events and leading a drama troupe in my religious organization (not sure if this is non clinical volunteering)
    3. Several hundred hours playing 3 instruments, though I’m not in a formal band/orchestra so I’m not sure if this counts.
11. Relevant honors or awards
    1. Aforementioned research scholarship (very selective)
    2. Dean’s List every semester
12. Anything else not listed you think might be important
    1. LORs from my PI, EMS captain, primary care shadowing doc, and 1 non-science prof will definitely be very strong. My science prof letter might be a bit iffy bc the only science prof I ended up connecting with so far has a reputation as a mediocre letter-writer. Just found out like a week ago 🙁

Current school list made with Admit.org (I tried to avoid CASPER and PREview schools, pls correct me if I included any of those; schools with a ** are ones where I’m thinking of applying MD/PhD, since they also consider for MD simultaneously or following rejection for the MD/PhD):

• Harvard Medical School **
• Vanderbilt University
• UChicago (Pritzker)
• Emory University
• UPenn (Perelman)
• WashU St. Louis
• Stanford University **
• Yale School of Medicine **
• University of Pittsburgh
• Hofstra
• UCLA
• Case Western Reserve
• Brown University **
• NYU Grossman
• Mayo Clinic
• Northwestern University
• [State school]
• Columbia University **
• Weill Cornell Medicine/Tri-I **
• Boston University
• University of Virginia
• Duke University **
• University of Michigan
• Icahn at Mount Sinai
• UCSF **
• Johns Hopkins
• Albert Einstein

1 additional question: Does applying MD/PhD, being rejected, and then being considered for MD-only hurt admission chances?

Note: I’m still deciding on the MD/PhD part, but I think I’m slowly moving towards the MD-only route. I’ve left a few MD/PhDs on here for feedback and discussion.

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Welcome to the forums.

The MSTP's and MD/PhDs hang out in the Physician Scientists forum. Feel free to post your profile there for feedback as well.

1 additional question: Does applying MD/PhD, being rejected, and then being considered for MD-only hurt admission chances?

That depends on the schools' process, but these are relatively independent decisions. I'll let the Physician Scientists forum clarify or correct me.

A couple of rules I keep: I disregard any activities you list with fewer than 50 hours except for shadowing. Basically your main activity is Red Cross and otherwise a ton of tutoring/mentoring. I'd urge you to boost the food bank hours to at least 150 to avoid getting screened out by admissions committees (though MD/PhD may be more accommodating, but you must still play the game).

Your metrics give you a clear shot to any brand-name school you want to attend on the MD-only side, but research productivity and potential for a successful academic career (over 7+ years) is just as important for the MSTP side. The issue is how much community service you need in a pool where so many applicants will likely have more (approaching a few hundred to thousand) in community service and clinical experience (which you might be okay). Your research progress sounds like you satisfy my screening to pass to the research faculty on you.

The question is why not just PhD. If you got an offer from a PhD program from a brand-name medical school but not an MD, would you take the PhD offer? Could you see yourself going in a slightly different direction (Home | OXCAM , NIH Graduate Partnerships Program | MD-PhD ). Why medical school and why now?

 

[morak]

Welcome to the forums.

The MSTP's and MD/PhDs hang out in the Physician Scientists forum. Feel free to post your profile there for feedback as well.


That depends on the schools' process, but these are relatively independent decisions. I'll let the Physician Scientists forum clarify or correct me.

A couple of rules I keep: I disregard any activities you list with fewer than 50 hours except for shadowing. Basically your main activity is Red Cross and otherwise a ton of tutoring/mentoring. I'd urge you to boost the food bank hours to at least 150 to avoid getting screened out by admissions committees (though MD/PhD may be more accommodating, but you must still play the game).

Your metrics give you a clear shot to any brand-name school you want to attend on the MD-only side, but research productivity and potential for a successful academic career (over 7+ years) is just as important for the MSTP side. The issue is how much community service you need in a pool where so many applicants will likely have more (approaching a few hundred to thousand) in community service and clinical experience (which you might be okay). Your research progress sounds like you satisfy my screening to pass to the research faculty on you.

The question is why not just PhD. If you got an offer from a PhD program from a brand-name medical school but not an MD, would you take the PhD offer? Could you see yourself going in a slightly different direction (Home | OXCAM , NIH Graduate Partnerships Program | MD-PhD ). Why medical school and why now?

Thanks for your response! For some of the non clinical volunteering hours (eg food bank and ESL tutor), these are ongoing commitments and will almost certainly be 70+ hours by the time I apply.

To address your last point, in my mind, I am dead-set on getting an MD and becoming a clinician because I enjoy working directly with people to address their concerns, and because the community impact you can have as a researcher is often much further removed than the impact that a doctor can have. I’m not sure if this is the correct response for a “why medicine?” essay, however. It’s very clear to me, but I’m not sure how to get it on paper beyond these fairly basic reasons!

The only reason I’m considering MD/PhD at all is because I do truly enjoy bench research and the idea of going full cycle from wet lab —> clinical application in my career sounds appealing to me. At the same time, I would prefer to focus on patient interaction and clinical duties, which is why I’ve begun to question whether I even want to apply to any MD/PhDs, since online info seems to state that their usual split is 80/20 research/clinical.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

@LizzyM, @Goro: the OP has checked the boxes for number of hours, although they're spread across a lot of different activities. They're meaningful, though; is it a problem that they have so many different activities for nonclinical volunteering? Otherwise, they've more than checked the box and their stats and ECs are otherwise top tier. Could easily wind up at Harvard.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

@LizzyM, @Goro: the OP has checked the boxes for number of hours, although they're spread across a lot of different activities. They're meaningful, though; is it a problem that they have so many different activities for nonclinical volunteering? Otherwise, they've more than checked the box and their stats and ECs are otherwise top tier. Could easily wind up at Harvard.

Not that how I screen applications is typical, but I have mentioned that I don't place weight on activities with fewer than 50 hours (except shadowing). This narrows the scope of activities for review.

 

[Goro]

@LizzyM, @Goro: the OP has checked the boxes for number of hours, although they're spread across a lot of different activities. They're meaningful, though; is it a problem that they have so many different activities for nonclinical volunteering? Otherwise, they've more than checked the box and their stats and ECs are otherwise top tier. Could easily wind up at Harvard.

Needs more dedicated service to others less fortunate than themselves. Dedicated means >150 hrs of service.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

Needs more dedicated service to others less fortunate than themselves. Dedicated means >150 hrs of service.

At an individual activity? Total, the OP has 275 hours.

 

[Goro]

At an individual activity? Total, the OP has 275 hours.

The low hour activities come off as either box-checking or a lack of committment, just like some people can't hold down a job when you look at their resumes. Not saying the OP is like that, but there's a reasonwhy Mr.Smile12 tells us that he doesn't count hrs <50.

 

[LizzyM]

I'd say drop the other non-clinical volunteer activities and double down on Red Cross as that is the place where you are most likely to break 150.

No one will care that you donate half your earnings to the Red Cross -- not relevant to include that the description of tutoring.

Much will hinge in MD/PhD as to whether your interests and skill set match with one or more labs at the school.

In my experience, you CAN get looked at by MD-only if rejected by MD/PhD but by then it is too late and the expectation is you'll decline the offer is you also hold a MD/PhD offer and so the inclination is to not "waste" an offer on you.

 

[morak]

I'd say drop the other non-clinical volunteer activities and double down on Red Cross as that is the place where you are most likely to break 150.

No one will care that you donate half your earnings to the Red Cross -- not relevant to include that the description of tutoring.

Much will hinge in MD/PhD as to whether your interests and skill set match with one or more labs at the school.

In my experience, you CAN get looked at by MD-only if rejected by MD/PhD but by then it is too late and the expectation is you'll decline the offer is you also hold a MD/PhD offer and so the inclination is to not "waste" an offer on you.

Forgot to respond earlier, but thank you very much for this insight! This has helped me clarify that I'll be limiting my MSTP applications in the upcoming cycle to a few select institutions: Harvard (since they screen for all 3 pathways at once), Brown, and Tri-I (as dedicated MSTPs) + adding UW to my list (considers all geo regions equally for MSTP admission, unlike their MD program).

As for the other schools on my list, I'll likely apply MD-only and then try to pursue the NIH GPP/Ox-Cam pathway after matriculation (thank you @Mr.Smile12 for linking the program earlier).

@Goro, @LeaveNoTrace, @LizzyM, and @Mr.Smile12: I appreciate the help and detailed insights from all of you!

 

[morak]

Hello! With application season around the corner, I wanted to check back in to get some help with a few questions and my school list. First, here’s my updated WAMC profile:

UPDATED:

1. cGPA and sGPA as calculated by AMCAS or AACOMA: cGPA: 3.9, sGPA: 3.94
2. MCAT score(s) and breakdown: 527
3. State of residence or country of citizenship (if non-US): [Redacted]
4. Ethnicity and/or race: ORM (low SES) Male
5. Undergraduate institution or category: T20 Ivy
6. Clinical experience (volunteer and non-volunteer): 1180 hrs as a volunteer 911 EMT-B crew chief.
7. Research experience and productivity:
   1. ~2150 hrs in a systems biology lab.
      1. 3rd 4th author CNS paper nearing publication (out as a preprint; one of the corresponding authors is a new PI and decided to jump in as co-first instead).
      2. Still in the process of writing a first-author paper that will likely be published in a mid-impact CNS- or ACS-family journal.
      3. 3 first-author posters at college symposiums
      4. College-provided research scholarship
   2. ~50 hrs of epidemiology research with a doc I shadowed.
      1. Hoping to have a first-author meta-analysis paper finished in the next 2 months or so, though the publication timeline is unknown.
8. Shadowing experience and specialties represented: 80 hrs primary care/IM, 30 hrs in- and out-patient GI, 5 hrs EM (oncology unfortunately didn’t work out)
9. Non-clinical volunteering (I have many entries here because I wanted to try out different activities and continue only with ones that spoke to me. I have 3 others that were under 5 hours each, so I excluded them):
   1. 225 hrs as a Red Cross DAT Officer (been super active in this since being promoted to a regional role; includes hours for organizing/participating in smoke detector/CO monitor installation drives for low-SES neighborhoods).
   2. 45 hrs as a reading/literacy mentor for underserved elementary school students
   3. 60 hrs in a local community food pantry supporting the homeless. Unfortunately, the pantry is closing next week due to a lack of funding and support. 🙁
   4. 55 hrs organizing + participating in religious-affiliated meal distribution ^
   5. 50 hrs as an ESL tutor for refugees
   6. 25 hrs volunteering with IRS VITA
   7. 75 hrs as a 1:1 tutor/mentor for FGLI students
10. Other extracurricular activities (including athletics, military service, gap year activities, leadership, teaching, etc):
    1. 350 hrs as a private independent tutor (paid) for high school students (STEM, English, History, college counseling, ACT/SAT) and MCAT.
    2. 20 hrs directing community outreach and leading a drama troupe in my religious organization ^
    3. Several hundred hours playing 3 instruments
    4. ~300 hours for 2 other niche hobbies I will be listing
11. Relevant honors or awards
    1. Aforementioned research scholarship (very selective)
    2. Dean’s List every semester
12. Anything else not listed you think might be important
    1. All LORs will be strong or very strong (got this fixed in the last few months).

^ Both of these entries are tied to the same organization — is it ok to split hours like this?

After deliberating for a while, discussing with mentors and advisors, and considering the current state of research funding, I decided to apply MD-only. The field of research I’m interested in is very closely related to medicine anyway, so I don’t think going down the MD-only route would close any significant doors for me. Besides (most importantly), I just can’t see myself committing more time to research than clinical practice.

That said, here are a few questions I have going into this cycle:

1. Should I diversify my clinical experience? I’m asking since my only direct clinical experience is EMS, though I do have 115 hours of clinical and hospital shadowing. I hope this won't be an issue.
2. Does my school list from my initial post look good to go (excluding UW, since I won’t be applying to MSTPs anymore)? I know it's very top-heavy, so I wanted to hear your opinions on whether I should include more schools.

Thank you for your help and feedback!

 

[morak]

Hello! With application season around the corner, I wanted to check back in to get some help with a few questions and my school list. First, here’s my updated WAMC profile:

UPDATED:

1. cGPA and sGPA as calculated by AMCAS or AACOMA: cGPA: 3.9, sGPA: 3.94
2. MCAT score(s) and breakdown: 527
3. State of residence or country of citizenship (if non-US): [Redacted]
4. Ethnicity and/or race: ORM (low SES) Male
5. Undergraduate institution or category: T20 Ivy
6. Clinical experience (volunteer and non-volunteer): 1180 hrs as a volunteer 911 EMT-B crew chief.
7. Research experience and productivity:
   1. ~2150 hrs in a systems biology lab.
      1. 3rd 4th author CNS paper nearing publication (out as a preprint; one of the corresponding authors is a new PI and decided to jump in as co-first instead).
      2. Still in the process of writing a first-author paper that will likely be published in a mid-impact CNS- or ACS-family journal.
      3. 3 first-author posters at college symposiums
      4. College-provided research scholarship
   2. ~50 hrs of epidemiology research with a doc I shadowed.
      1. Hoping to have a first-author meta-analysis paper finished in the next 2 months or so, though the publication timeline is unknown.
8. Shadowing experience and specialties represented: 80 hrs primary care/IM, 30 hrs in- and out-patient GI, 5 hrs EM (oncology unfortunately didn’t work out)
9. Non-clinical volunteering (I have many entries here because I wanted to try out different activities and continue only with ones that spoke to me. I have 3 others that were under 5 hours each, so I excluded them):
   1. 225 hrs as a Red Cross DAT Officer (been super active in this since being promoted to a regional role; includes hours for organizing/participating in smoke detector/CO monitor installation drives for low-SES neighborhoods).
   2. 45 hrs as a reading/literacy mentor for underserved elementary school students
   3. 60 hrs in a local community food pantry supporting the homeless. Unfortunately, the pantry is closing next week due to a lack of funding and support. 🙁
   4. 55 hrs organizing + participating in religious-affiliated meal distribution ^
   5. 50 hrs as an ESL tutor for refugees
   6. 25 hrs volunteering with IRS VITA
   7. 75 hrs as a 1:1 tutor/mentor for FGLI students
10. Other extracurricular activities (including athletics, military service, gap year activities, leadership, teaching, etc):
    1. 350 hrs as a private independent tutor (paid) for high school students (STEM, English, History, college counseling, ACT/SAT) and MCAT.
    2. 20 hrs directing community outreach and leading a drama troupe in my religious organization ^
    3. Several hundred hours playing 3 instruments
    4. ~300 hours for 2 other niche hobbies I will be listing
11. Relevant honors or awards
    1. Aforementioned research scholarship (very selective)
    2. Dean’s List every semester
12. Anything else not listed you think might be important
    1. All LORs will be strong or very strong (got this fixed in the last few months).

^ Both of these entries are tied to the same organization — is it ok to split hours like this?

After deliberating for a while, discussing with mentors and advisors, and considering the current state of research funding, I decided to apply MD-only. The field of research I’m interested in is very closely related to medicine anyway, so I don’t think going down the MD-only route would close any significant doors for me. Besides (most importantly), I just can’t see myself committing more time to research than clinical practice.

That said, here are a few questions I have going into this cycle:

1. Should I diversify my clinical experience? I’m asking since my only direct clinical experience is EMS, though I do have 115 hours of clinical and hospital shadowing. I hope this won't be an issue.
2. Am I too research-heavy for applying MD-only? My school’s premed advisor brought this up as a potential concern when we were discussing MD vs MD/PhD, and @Mr.Smile12 also asked me earlier why I wouldn’t go PhD only. As I answered above, I’m not interested in full- or majority-time research, so I do not want to convey that I’m a “flight risk” from MD programs, so to speak.

Last, but not least, does my school list from my initial post look good to go (excluding UW, since I won’t be applying to MSTPs anymore)? I know it's very top-heavy, so I wanted to hear your opinions on whether I should include more schools.

Thank you for your help and feedback!

Bumping this. @Mr.Smile12: Whenever you have some time, could you let me know what you think? I'd really like to hear what you think about my updated hours.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Looking good. Keep that upward trend in service orientation going. Do whatever you can to have admissions officers pitch why their school is good for you.

 

[morak]

Looking good. Keep that upward trend in service orientation going. Do whatever you can to have admissions officers pitch why their school is good for you.

Thanks! Do you have any thoughts about the questions towards the end of my post? To recap:

1. Is it ok to split my religious volunteering hours between non-clinical volunteering (for the meal distribution hours) and leadership/hobbies (for the outreach work I do)?
2. Should I diversify my clinical experience?
3. Does my school list look ok?

Would also love to hear from the list-making legend @Faha, if you're available!

 

[Faha]

Thanks! Do you have any thoughts about the questions towards the end of my post? To recap:

1. Is it ok to split my religious volunteering hours between non-clinical volunteering (for the meal distribution hours) and leadership/hobbies (for the outreach work I do)?
2. Should I diversify my clinical experience?
3. Does my school list look ok?

Would also love to hear from the list-making legend @Faha, if you're available!

You have a good list and should receive several interviews.