want to drop out of medical school and pursue a psyd

[valentinoRossi]

if religion is indeed just some bs then im wasting my time... and thats that...but if it's real...after we die, bro your screwed

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[valentinoRossi]

one thing im worried about tho is...do psychologists see real time changes in patients the way a physician can?

 

[wigflip]

I suspect that cursors are wavering over the "report post" icon as I write this, so I'll resist using logic to respond.

"My bad" for assuming that psychologists and med students would support evolution (which is what the links really are about). Mea culpa.

 

[roubs]

In my opinion, religion is the ultimate authority based argument. Deus ex machina. Magic where knowledge is not.

Richard Dawkins is smiling somewhere...

 

[valentinoRossi]

I suspect that cursors are wavering over the "report post" icon as I write this, so I'll resist using logic to respond.

"My bad" for assuming that psychologists and med students would support evolution (which is what the links really are about). Mea culpa.

its all good bro we just talking here

 

[roubs]

As I always say, the man who invented the concept of memes has no right to be making fun of religion.

What's wrong with memes? Also I wouldn't say he makes fun of religion so much as eviscerates it and points out which parts of society literal interpretations of it ought to stay out of (science education, civil law).

 

[wigflip]

What's wrong with memes? Also I wouldn't say he makes fun of religion so much as eviscerates it and points out which parts of society literal interpretations of it ought to stay out of (science education, civil law).

right on, roubs!

and religious or atheist, i think it would be pretty hard for anyone to resist him reading his hate mail, especially the way he includes the awful grammar, misspellings ("Dawkings!").

 

[wigflip]

its all good bro we just talking here

all right, fair enough.

but i changed my avatar, just for you. Get it?
NOW will you stop calling me "bro/dude"?

 

[valentinoRossi]

Nope...its just how i talk, i cant help it...don't judge me!
all i see in your avatar is a marble vagina... que es?

 

[wigflip]

Nope

think anatomy class, med student.

 

[cara susanna]

I'm religious AND believe in evolution. My religion allows it.

And memes are just as hard to believe as the existence of a deity. Ideas grow on their own and exist before we think of them? There's no empirical support for it, and it's just as abstract a concept. My philosophy classmates thought that memes was like Dawkin's religion.

 

[wigflip]

all i see in your avatar is a marble vagina... que es?

caray! the younger generation. it's a georgia o' keefe painting. in addition to the completely abstract stuff and the animal skulls, she did a series of paintings of "vagina flowers."

my point was the same as shirley bassey's:
"I may not be a lady, but I'm all woman." I forget that younger folks call women "dude" (and perhaps "bro"?) these days.

 

[valentinoRossi]

caray! the younger generation. it's a georgia o' keefe painting. in addition to the completely abstract stuff and the animal skulls, she did a series of paintings of "vagina flowers."

my point was the same as shirley bassey's:
"I may not be a lady, but I'm all woman." I forget that younger folks call women "dude" (and perhaps "bro"?) these days.

hahaha no my apologies..i thought you were like a 25 year old psychology masters student or something , im from the south, we call women ma'am

 

[wigflip]

huh no my apologies..i thought you were like a 25 year old psychology masters student or something , im from the south, we call women ma'am

no, i'm an old crone! well, maybe not quite. but "ma'am"--that has a ring to it. maybe if i ever graduate you can call me "Dr. Ma'am."

no problem--like you say, "we're just talking."

 

[valentinoRossi]

btw, yesterday we took a test on how to interact with patients, and we learned (briefly on some random powerpoint slide) how a calm patients will have a better immune response. We also learned that people with depression have lower lymph (used in immunity), and also people with stress will have a weakened immune response because a shortage of some enzyme that i forgot of sadly. Cool stuff...it was mentioned in a very small portion of a lecture...mainly because medical students all find it useless ironically..but i thought it was fascinating.

ALSO...you psychologists need to tell you patients to do more yoga, and more meditation with diaphragm breathing, i don't know for sure but i really think that it moves the lymph flow in the mid chest area...which would cause less sickness.

 

[wigflip]

btw, yesterday we took a test on how to interact with patients...Cool stuff...it was mentioned in a very small portion of a lecture...mainly because medical students all find it useless ironically..but i thought it was fascinating.

What a shame that your peers aren't interested. Here's a book (mostly empirical studies in chapter form) worth checking out if medical communication is of interest:

http://books.google.com/books/about/Communication_in_medical_care.html?id=nEWjmUIgFC8C

 

[cara susanna]

We do focus on diaphragmatic breathing, valentinorossi.

 

[valentinoRossi]

the only thing i could find on google...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libby_Smith

 

[deleted176373]

(although you still need people skills).

So you are saying that Asperger's and medicine are incompatible? I could make a case that you don't need people skills to be a good primary care provider.

Different people have different motivations that lead them to excel as a primary care provider, and believe or not, even someone with full-blown Asperger's could do a competent job as a primary care provider without the people skills. The motivations would be very different, but the outcomes might be startlingly similar. The meticulousness of someone focused on the technical aspects of the job could overshadow the inferior people skills.

I also feel that if i can apply a medical student's work ethic to another field, along with having an actual genuine interest in the material.. i can do well.

This had me rolling with laughter... Do you have the medical student's work ethic, because that's not exactly how you described your one month of training thus far.

and although it has to do with some study habit deficiencies, a lack of passion and interest highly contributes to my performance mishaps.

 

[valentinoRossi]

So you are saying that Asperger's and medicine are incompatible? I could make a case that you don't need people skills to be a good primary care provider.

its more serious than that actually...there is a strong correlation between doctors who lack proper communication/empathy with malpractice lawsuits.

 

[deleted176373]

its more serious than that actually...there is a strong correlation between doctors who lack proper communication/empathy with malpractice lawsuits.

Correlation isn't causation. Certainly empathy may be important, but empathy and communication are two very different constructs.

To answer your latest question:

Without the GRE and a Psych background, you really would need at least 30 or so psych credits or a REALLY strong Psych GRE score to prove mastery of the basics, and as far as the GRE goes... well you'll have to take it.

I know that sucks. Some Psy.D's may not care about your prerequisites, I don't know that you would want to entertain the thoughts of going to a program with no standards.


Mark

 

[roubs]

I'm religious AND believe in evolution. My religion allows it.

And memes are just as hard to believe as the existence of a deity. Ideas grow on their own and exist before we think of them? There's no empirical support for it, and it's just as abstract a concept. My philosophy classmates thought that memes was like Dawkin's religion.

Sorry to derail this otherwise very focused thread, but I think the idea is that memes can exist before *you* think of them, but I don't think its that they exist before *anyone* thinks of them. And yeah, lots of the more philosophical ideas don't have empirical support so in that way they are all like religion. For example, the idea and label of "meme" didn't exist before Dawkin's book. That would be its first citation and you could argue that concept being called meme didn't exist until then, right? Sorry for the mememeta.

 

[roubs]

its more serious than that actually...there is a strong correlation between doctors who lack proper communication/empathy with malpractice lawsuits.

I think you can be good at being a doctor and bad at being sued. The converse of the idea that 'patients who like their doctors don't sue' is that you can screw up and be awful...but with a smile. Then you'll be fine

 

[valentinoRossi]

I think you can be good at being a doctor and bad at being sued. The converse of the idea that 'patients who like their doctors don't sue' is that you can screw up and be awful...but with a smile. Then you'll be fine

yeah there's a study that verifies this

 

[valentinoRossi]

Correlation isn't causation. Certainly empathy may be important, but empathy and communication are two very different constructs.

To answer your latest question:

Without the GRE and a Psych background, you really would need at least 30 or so psych credits or a REALLY strong Psych GRE score to prove mastery of the basics, and as far as the GRE goes... well you'll have to take it.

I know that sucks. Some Psy.D's may not care about your prerequisites, I don't know that you would want to entertain the thoughts of going to a program with no standards.


Mark

hmm...so it would take a good year or so to get into a psyd program...and from what i read so far the deadlines for fall of 2012 are all in december...would i have a chance of starting in the fall of 2012 if i took classes and the GRE by spring?

 

[valentinoRossi]

Correlation isn't causation. Certainly empathy may be important, but empathy and communication are two very different constructs.


Mark

a doctor can be very empathic..but if he doesn't communicate it then the patient is more likely to sue for a mistake he makes.

 

[loveoforganic]

Valentino, I'm an MS-1 as well, and not having a wonderful go of it either so far (gen bio is my only bio background... whoever said biology background doesn't help much in med school is an ass :|). Anywayyyyyyy, my sole interest going in wasn't psych, though it was one of my 3 primary interests (psych and it's subspecialties (pain, c&a, psychosomatic), pm&r (SCI/pain), & heme/onc), and my desire to go to med school was fairly split with a desire to pursue a clinical health psych phd.

The material is fairly interesting to me by and large, but it still sucks. Working just ridiculous hours and still behind from the initial couple weeks of trying to figure out how to best study. Will probably be close to pass/fail line on first block of exams (Monday/Tuesday). Not being helped by other life stuff that's currently going on.

Anyway, my point - stick it out at least until you have to pay tuition again. You worked like hell to get in, and it would be a real shame to toss that out prematurely only to realize later it was a mistake. You can take 3 months of suck while you come to a more careful decision.

 

[KillerDiller]

hmm...so it would take a good year or so to get into a psyd program...and from what i read so far the deadlines for fall of 2012 are all in december...would i have a chance of starting in the fall of 2012 if i took classes and the GRE by spring?

I agree with MarkP. It may be possible to get into a psy.d program by December, but you'd likely be scraping the bottom of the barrel, going to a free-standing professional school that accepts most of its applicants anyway. I don't say that to be offensive. It seems you could become a good candidate for more competitive programs in a couple years, but as of now your research experience is outside of psychology and you've only taken one psych class. Ask yourself whether you honestly feel that you should qualify to pursue the top level of the profession right now. Also, compare your experience to a typical applicant for mid-level, funded Ph.D. programs. This person will have 2 years of psych research experience relevant to their desired placement, a psychology major background (or at least the core classes), strong GPA and GRE scores, and some clinical volunteer experience.

 

[KillerDiller]

hmm...so it would take a good year or so to get into a psyd program...and from what i read so far the deadlines for fall of 2012 are all in december...would i have a chance of starting in the fall of 2012 if i took classes and the GRE by spring?

Or, wait, did you mean fall of 2013?

 

[wigflip]

psyd is a waste of money

yikes--let the psyd vs. phd brawl reignite!! you'd better hope there are no devoutly religious psyds out there, or it will be double trouble for you, jon!

 

[PETRAN]

i'd stick with medical school and specialize in something behavioral. . . psychiatry or behavioral neurology. psyd is a waste of money

+1


I'm currently doing a PhD in clinical psych/neuropsych and i'm trying to get out and pursue a medical degree (i'm in Europe so it is a 5,5-year Bachelor in Medicine and Surgery yikes. At least it is a bit more "laidback" in comparison to the USA MD. Oh and more cheap...actually almost free). I would realy like to pursue a career in neurology (e.g. behavioral or general) or c-l psychiatry. I'm fed-up with the clinical, organizational and economic constrains of psychology, especially if you compare it with the years of studying. Don't get me wrong, i love it research-wise, especially cognitive psych/neuropsych/neuroscience but not clinically. As for "prescriptions-privileges" for psychologists, well, forget it, it will never spread outside a few US states (e.g. in Europe it will never ever come for sure. The medical community has a long and big tradition here and psychology is completely powerless and disorganized in most european countries, except for the UK. Nurses are not allowed to prescribe either...lol. Sounds very funny that nurses are allowed to prescribe). So i was wondering if Valentino wants to exchange places with me lol.


As for "memes" "surviving outside brains" is a misinterpretation of what "memes" are and how it was developed further in the fantastic book "the meme machine" by susan blackmore. Memes can't leave outside brains in the same way genes can't survive outside bodies/biological organisms (unless you are a virus. Well you still have a nice protein coat). It is just a metaphor for how ideas and klowledge is passed and developed through-out generations. And a very successful one IMO. It has nothing "metaphysical".


The argument on the apparent complexity found in biology as a proof for the existence of god is not more valid than the argument on the apparent complexity found in biology as a proof for the existence of aliens, ghosts, or harry potter. That it, anyone of these metaphysical entities (and probably countless others) could be responsible for the apparent intelligence found in biological organisms. Actually it would be more plausible if extraterrestrials created the whole thing in comparison to "god" whoever that guy is. I don't understand how that "intelligent design" thing got that big in the americal south.

 

[valentinoRossi]

Or, wait, did you mean fall of 2013?

no i meant to start in the fall of 2012.

 

[Psych2011]

hmm...so it would take a good year or so to get into a psyd program...and from what i read so far the deadlines for fall of 2012 are all in december...would i have a chance of starting in the fall of 2012 if i took classes and the GRE by spring?

If you want to apply for 2012 to programs that require the GRE, you need to take the GRE ASAP (in October), since the results must be in by the application deadline (in December for most programs).

 

[cara susanna]

Even if you find religion silly, there's no need to randomly make fun of those who do. Their beliefs don't cause you any harm unless they try to force them on you, which I don't see any of the religious people in this thread doing.

 

[roubs]

Even if you find religion silly, there's no need to randomly make fun of those who do. Their beliefs don't cause you any harm unless they try to force them on you, which I don't see any of the religious people in this thread doing.

I dunno if you are referring to the links posted? I think the only making fun was towards people who do regularly try to force their beliefs on others.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

Even if you find religion silly, there's no need to randomly make fun of those who do. Their beliefs don't cause you any harm unless they try to force them on you, which I don't see any of the religious people in this thread doing.

Its astonishing that psychologists and doctoral students in the field can be so ignorant of the psychology of religion and so disdainful.of a religious worldview. Psychologists should never mock religion. The dogmatism and rigidity of some psychologists rivals that of any member of the Inquisition. Some of the posters here need to have a looooooooooooong talk with a cultural anthropologist. An anthropologist can not only explain the cultural advantages and functions of religion but also serve as a model social scientist who does not sacrifice humanism on the altar of scientism. Or they could read William James. Psychologists would do well to remember a central definition of humanism "Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto" or "I am a man, I consider nothing that is human alien to me."

 

[KillerDiller]

Its astonishing that psychologists and doctoral students in the field can be so ignorant of the psychology of religion and so disdainful.of a religious worldview. Psychologists should never mock religion. The dogmatism and rigidity of some psychologists rivals that of any member of the Inquisition. Some of the posters here need to have a looooooooooooong talk with a cultural anthropologist. An anthropologist can not only explain the cultural advantages and functions of religion but also serve as a model social scientist who does not sacrifice humanism on the altar of scientism. Or they could read William James.

Really? Atheist psychologists are now at the point of widely, brutally torturing and killing religious folk in attempts to convert them to atheism? I must have missed that memo . There are plenty of things that can be better understood when examined through psychological, anthropological, or sociological lenses. Why should this make them beyond mocking? Or, if not all things that can be examined this way are beyond mocking, why should religion hold a special place?

 

[2012PhD]

i'd stick with medical school and specialize in something behavioral. . . psychiatry or behavioral neurology. psyd is a waste of money

AGREED!

There is still a lot of stigma against the PsyD, even from good programs, but esp. prof. schools. Why pay 200K, go through training for 7-8 years, and then have an uncertain future and/or low income. To succeed from a PsyD you have to work harder than PhD students and your resume has to look even better than a PHD resume to get an apa internship. When times are tough and there is 1/2 spots per 100 applicants, the PsyDs don't do as well.

Why not stick with the MD, have a comfortable and stable future? You can always get additional training in psychotherapy after you finish your MD via intensive workshops and courses. Many of the MDs i know in private practice do med management for $ and variety and then take on a bunch of psychotherapy cases. The ones i know in big cities are making 300-400K without working longer hours than psychologists. In NYC and LA, MDs are charging $350 for therapy while the PsyDs are charging $90-150 (if they can even get it).

 

[beantownpsych]

hmm...so it would take a good year or so to get into a psyd program...and from what i read so far the deadlines for fall of 2012 are all in december...would i have a chance of starting in the fall of 2012 if i took classes and the GRE by spring?

If you fail out/are dismissed from med school PsyD programs (at least the good ones) aren't going to look at you favorably. You could go always go to a for profit school but then you're risking 200K in debt w/ the possibility that you may not be able to get an APA accredited internship (and therefore crappy job prospects after you graduate). You'd have to take the GRE in the next few weeks to even have the option of applying.

Frankly the majority of what you've posted has me concerned that you really haven't thought any of this through. My advice: Stay in med school, study even though you don't like the material, and think about it over the next yr. Getting dismissed will negatively impact your career whatever choice you make

 

[beantownpsych]

And for the record the vast majority of PhD's I know make quite a bit more than 70K/yr...

 

[valentinoRossi]

its weird...there isnt a single person on here who is saying to pursue a psyd and leave medicine. Maybe its not the best option i suppose...everyone always says to just do medicine...medicine medicine medicine..its safe, its secure...but med school is also long, and expensive...i wont be a working physician for another 8 years (potentially).
The truth is, there are no short cuts, no easy careers...everything takes time, everything takes money...

 

[nitemagi]

its weird...there isnt a single person on here who is saying to pursue a psyd and leave medicine. Maybe its not the best option i suppose...everyone always says to just do medicine...medicine medicine medicine..its safe, its secure...but med school is also long, and expensive...i wont be a working physician for another 8 years (potentially).
The truth is, there are no short cuts, no easy careers...everything takes time, everything takes money...

You're a physician in 4 years. You're not specialty board-eligible for 8.

You're right, there's no easy paths. Don't think about 5 years, or 10. Think about the best path to look back on when you're 80.

 

[valentinoRossi]

You're a physician in 4 years. You're not specialty board-eligible for 8.

You're right, there's no easy paths. Don't think about 5 years, or 10. Think about the best path to look back on when you're 80.

when im 80...hmm........i can imagine myself looking back, and being proud of all the research articles i published on the psychological affects of negative stereotyping of muslims in the media...the relationship between happiness and religion...having helped thousands of people cope with their problems without the use of medication...being an advocate of mental health awareness in minority communities...having a career where i can enjoy my time with my family..having a career that would help make me an intellectual, a thinker, someone with new thoughts, new ideas...someone who enjoyed their 20's..not stuck in a library on a friday night, but out with a cutie getting coffee or something....i see myself as breaking the mold of family tradition from medicine and exploring new fields...new horizons...making a spash of fresh air....i dunno...loll i need to do some soul searching

 

[valentinoRossi]

And for the record the vast majority of PhD's I know make quite a bit more than 70K/yr...

you know there was a study that said after 70k there's no correlation between salary and happiness

 

[valentinoRossi]

If you fail out/are dismissed from med school PsyD programs (at least the good ones) aren't going to look at you favorably. You could go always go to a for profit school but then you're risking 200K in debt w/ the possibility that you may not be able to get an APA accredited internship (and therefore crappy job prospects after you graduate). You'd have to take the GRE in the next few weeks to even have the option of applying.

Frankly the majority of what you've posted has me concerned that you really haven't thought any of this through. My advice: Stay in med school, study even though you don't like the material, and think about it over the next yr. Getting dismissed will negatively impact your career whatever choice you make

ok

 

[cara susanna]

when im 80...hmm........i can imagine myself looking back, and being proud of all the research articles i published on the psychological affects of negative stereotyping of muslims in the media...the relationship between happiness and religion...having helped thousands of people cope with their problems without the use of medication...being an advocate of mental health awareness in minority communities...having a career where i can enjoy my time with my family..having a career that would help make me an intellectual, a thinker, someone with new thoughts, new ideas...someone who enjoyed their 20's..not stuck in a library on a friday night, but out with a cutie getting coffee or something....i see myself as breaking the mold of family tradition from medicine and exploring new fields...new horizons...making a spash of fresh air....i dunno...loll i need to do some soul searching

I wouldn't say that we clinical psych doctoral students get to really enjoy our 20s, either. We're not stuck in the library, but we are often stuck in the lab, our office, the clinic we're working at, in front of a computer writing assessment reports and research papers, etc. Not to mention the guilt you feel when you are taking time for yourself and not being productive because in grad school you could spend 24/7 working--there is always something to do.

Not that I'm saying our workload is like that of a med student. It's completely different, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily lighter or easier.

 

[KillerDiller]

I wouldn't say that we clinical psych doctoral students get to really enjoy our 20s, either. We're not stuck in the library, but we are often stuck in the lab, our office, the clinic we're working at, in front of a computer writing assessment reports and research papers, etc. Not to mention the guilt you feel when you are taking time for yourself and not being productive because in grad school you could spend 24/7 working--there is always something to do.

Not that I'm saying our workload is like that of a med student. It's completely different, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily lighter or easier.

This. If having the freedom to enjoy your own time is important to you, (and who could blame you if it was?), then maybe taking some time off to relax and figure things out would be in order.

 

[roubs]

I wouldn't say that we clinical psych doctoral students get to really enjoy our 20s, either. We're not stuck in the library, but we are often stuck in the lab, our office, the clinic we're working at, in front of a computer writing assessment reports and research papers, etc. Not to mention the guilt you feel when you are taking time for yourself and not being productive because in grad school you could spend 24/7 working--there is always something to do.

Not that I'm saying our workload is like that of a med student. It's completely different, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily lighter or easier.

Totally agree. I was that pre-med that got away so I've had ample time to compare with a lot of friends going through med school, and the above is a totally accurate representation, IMO.

 

[beantownpsych]

this. If having the freedom to enjoy your own time is important to you, (and who could blame you if it was?), then maybe taking some time off to relax and figure things out would be in order.

+1

 

[2012PhD]

Totally agree. I was that pre-med that got away so I've had ample time to compare with a lot of friends going through med school, and the above is a totally accurate representation, IMO.

Clinical psychs are some of the most overworked graduate students i've seen. You have to be a pro at multitasking to get through and 60-80 weeks are not uncommon in our field. You are often taking a full load of courses, TAing, working in a research lab, and also working in a hospital responsible for patients all in the same semester. Plus, try going through the psychology internship match where there is 1 position per 100 doctoral students. Whoever says our field is not completely flooded has not gone through the internship or post-doc process lately.