Wanted: Clue Part 2

[stdent9972]

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Tim, Tim,

Here's your response!!

You really are a complete idiot when it comes to salary data. For an MD, from Brooklyn, you have absolutely no street smarts coming up with any REAL DATA!! According to your stats the highest an MD makes is $148K. That is absolute crap.

Everyone in the world knows that cardiologists and brain surgeons make upwards of 400K. Similarly, the dentist data is off. All of the salary data you get always seems to lowball numbers. They say stuff, like the avg. lawyer makes 55K, when everyone knows that some lawyers make over $1 million a year.

Here's some real data:

This is avg income from '97 (four years old)

I read the avg MD makes about $160K a year from the American Medical Association. http://www.ada.org/prof/pubs/daily/0004/0411surv.html

In 1997, the average net income from the primary practice of all independent dentists who responded to the survey was $144,940, representing a 6.7 percent increase from 1996.
From the ADA Fact Sheet:
Specialists in the 45-49 year old age group averaged $236,780 a year net income

here's the real reason: http://www.ada.org/prof/ed/careers/Jobbank.asp
These are classified ads for dental practices for sale:

ARIZONA-General practice for sale. Four season, mile high city, modern office, recreation abounds, four day week with no evenings or weekends, 400plusK gross, 200 plusK net. Price 195K (520) 777-0716.

CALIFORNIA-Extraordinary opportunity. Very profitable established, fee for service practice, producing over one million a year, part time, with expansion possibilities. This is a dream practice, with exceptional staff, an upscale patient base, modern equipment, in a wonderful area. Priced well. One hundred percent financing available. Call: (800) 465-8605.

5) Steamboat Springs, ski to work! Practice collecting $700,000. Financing available. For these listings and others, call Professional Marketing and Appraisal, 1 (800) 632-7155, www.profmark.com

CONNECTICUT-Hartford $1.1 million gross, $480K net, 3000 plus patients; Northern Hartford County-$585K gross, Net $280,000 plus, strong hygiene. Baccari and Associates, www.dentalbroker.net (401) 828-4940.

ALASKA-State of the art equipment and systems. $1 million gross, $550,000 net, housing included. Experience the Alaska adventure, great family living, exceptional clinical opportunity, pay off student loans, retire in eight years like seller. Premier Dental Practices. www.cpa4dentists.com. (541) 764-5880.

Now granted these are the more exceptional ads that I picked, this is pretty good cash, I must say!!!

Now compare to MD's:

Three camps, first, easy specialties:

GP, Ped, Psych, Intenal Med, Family Prac, Derm:
income: $120-$180K avg work week, 50-65hrs, a lot more than the 37hrs for a dentist.

Or work like a dog:
Anesthesiology, Gen Surg, Orthopedic Surg, Opthamology,
income: 200K-300K, lots of hours and stress. again much more difficult and many more hours

And finally,
chiefs of staff, cardio, neuro, famous researcher at Hopkins:
income: 350K-600K
Be ready to work your entire life to get there and give up your entire life once you do. And be in the OR for 8-12 hrs at a time.

Just my 2 cents!!

 

[turtleboard]

I know everyone's been waiting for my response to this. I took the weekend off and wasn't about to check my email while away from sunny Brooklyn.

I don't remember the statistics I downloaded from www.salary.com, but if $148,000 was the most "my" data showed for an MD, it was for ALL MDs regardless of specialty. I wanted to find you reliable data. I have other data which show different salaries for various medical and surgical specialties, but I figured I should give you something more accessible.

"All of the salary data you get always seems to lowball numbers. They say stuff, like the avg. lawyer makes 55K, when everyone knows that some lawyers make over $1 million a year."

Do you realize what you're writing? SOME lawyers make over $1,000,000? Sure. But do you realize that public defenders/public interest lawyers make abotu the same salary as new teachers? That's in the neighborhood of $35,000 if you didn't know. Do you realize that some MDs, particularly opthalmologists, make nearly $5,000,000 a year? Does that mean that all MDs make that? No. It means that they're on the high end. There are MDs, pediatricians in particular, who make less than $100,000 (somewhere in the neighborhood of $85,000).

What was your point?

As far as your numbers for MDs are concerned, can you support your claims? I see no links for those salaries, but I see references for the dds/dmd salary data.

All this talk of money and salaries and work hours makes me wonder what you guys wrote in your personal statements for dental school. Did you just put the application in your typewriter, hit "$," and left the rest of the page blank? When a patient walks in with some abscess in his mouth from some bad infection, do you see a suffering person to whom you can deliver relief, or do you see a bag o' money with legs?

You dudes scare me sometimes. I realize that the "practice" of dentistry is more a business than other professional practices, but I think that there's gotta be some human element to your career choice. If you wanted to make a truckload of money, why did you go into dentistry anyway? Why accumulate the $150,000+ worth of debt during dental school? Why deal with the intricacies of practice management?

Before I left college for medical school, I was recruited by one of this country's top insurance companies to be in their actuarial management program. It was a two or three-year program that offered a starting salary of $70,000, bonuses when you pass your actuary exams, three months of vacation (for leisure, business trips, and study for examinations), and a company car. All told an actuary at this company was poised to make nearly $200,000 for just a Bachelors degree.

Why didn't I take the job? Some people think I'm nuts for having passed that up and going to medical school where, while I'll accumulate NO MORE than $40,000 in debt (I go to State), making $200,000 is in the distant future depending on my choice of practice. Oh my gosh! I won't able to afford the many wonderful things you dentists seem to be buying up with the great financial engine you call a career.

I reiterate again that there's a human element in medicine which draws many to the field. Perhaps you don't see the same attitudes in the old, tired, and jaded MD who's been practicing for 40+ years, but ask him what got him into it in the first place.

It's not a secret that many would-be physicians who didn't make the cut turn to dentistry because they figure that's another way to help people. To these people I hope their drive to help people hasn't been lost in the financial statements you guys seem to drool over. I used to think that my dentist should have gone through college wanting to be a dentist all along, but maybe today I'd rather my dentist be a premed-turned-predental student because he's probably the only one amongst all of you who still cares about the patient in the chair.

Managed care is breaking our backs, it's no secret, but our applicant pool hasn't been adversely affected. The number of applications to MD and DO school have dropped somewhat, but the quality of applications has risen to some of their highest levels in years (based on GPAs and MCATs of matriculated students).

Always in good fun,


W.

[This message has been edited by turtleboard (edited 02-26-2001).]

 

[turtleboard]

Pushed a few buttons, did I?

Again these threads are in fun. If you can't see that, oh laid-back Californian that you are, then I suggest you refrain from reading either of these threads until they've been removed from SDN. Heck, don't read anything with my name somewhere in the thread.

As for the SUNY comment, New York is one of the most competitive states as far as admission to medical school is concerned. Perhaps your numbers would get you in here, but you'd be chewed up and spit out before third-year just because of your LACK OF A SENSE OF HUMOR. And without one, you're kinda sad.

Lighten up big man,

W.

 

[DrDMD05]

Calbear, after getting to know turtleboard through this forum and via emails, I can honestly say that he has nothing against dentistry or dentist. We (I) ribbed on him just as much as he has ribbed us. I can vouch that he is a good guy with a good sense of humor. Besides we all know that dentist are better than MD?s. (Right Tim?) So let us all be friends.
BTW look at his last sentence, "Always in good fun, W.

"
Its clear that his messages are all in fun.


[This message has been edited by DrDMD05 (edited 02-27-2001).]

 

[LoserAlert]

I do agree with DrDMD05. I've followed turtleboards messages the last several months, in here, and the MD/DO threads, and although I have never interacted with him through these boards, i have noticed that he is sarcastic, and nothing is meant to be personal (sorry for the long sentence). In any event, if you check other boards, he does have a health respect for all health care professions. Just relax, argue, but don't lose sleep over this.

 

[Dr. Pedo]

WOW! What in the heck did I start

! Just imagine DrDMD and wu----if he would of seen our (my) original thread "HAIL TO THE CHIEF TURTLEBOARD." Yikes!
Trust me Calbear I felt the same way for a short time too---but have since realized wu is just having alittle fun. Sure he says somethings that can be sarcastic, but to his defense-- we (DrDMD and I) have got our shots in too

. Is it always appropriate? Probably not. Hence it has been curtailed to a few threads---if you look at some of turtleboards other entries, he not only shows incredible knowledge on many topics but also shows a lot of respect to any doc to be.
So---Come on back and enjoy yourself!

R.R.B

 

[turtleboard]

What? I'm sarcastic? I thought it was my New York wit -- my inherited New York cynicism.

And, Dr.2b, it's "should've" not "should of."

You're truly a credit to your profession.

Your friendly neighborhood MD,

W.

 

[DrDMD05]

just reading a few w. post and ive come to the conclusion that w. shouldve been a english teacher. sorry for the lack of caps commas and use of correct grammar. i hope that they will teach me these things in dental school ....

 

[Dr. Pedo]

Hey Wu!

Take a look at my post again----you made a mistake by overlooking an important fact. Although you were correct in principle ("have" instead of "of") you were wrong with the verb phrase. The phrase was WOULD have-- not should have

!

No! You are a credit to your profession. Another MD---seeing only what he wants to see!

DrDMD----I hope W. is going to be a family practitioner! Imagine, with his attention to detail, the harm he could do as a surgeon!

A most sincere,
R.R.B

 

[turtleboard]

You make the BIG mistakes. I try to make them smaller. You're an independent practioner, Dr.2b, so you make the calls on what you want to do. I'll sit back and make sure that your mistakes aren't all that big, but I can't guide you.

Unless you want me to be the proud wearer of the "dds/dmd" title?

W., D.O. [hon.]

 

[Dr. Pedo]

Perfect! Ahhhhhh! Another fine example of a MD weakness----admitting mistakes

!

This simple comment---Yes Dr.2b, I made a mistake. I tried to make you look like an @ss but in the process I made myself look like one!

---would "of" sufficed for me.

R.R.B
__________________________________________
"A magician will divert your attention from the truth."

 

[turtleboard]

Who's admitting what?

No admission on my part, big man. As a "doctor" you should have professional autonomy, that means being allowed to choose the incorrect "verb phrase." As the almighty MD, and NOT a disciple of the ALMIGHTY TOOTH, it is my job to make sure that you, lowly dds that you've "chosen" to become, don't butcher the use of the incorrect verb phrase.

So I'm right. You're wrong.

What else is new?

It's 6AM. I haven't slept. Damn. And I'm keeping myself from sleeping since I'm still at my desk in school and haven't seen my apartment in over three days.

W.

 

[DrDMD05]

w. what the hell are you doing up at that hour? you should at least try to get 5-6 hours of sleep. i guess the speed dealer knows you well jk of course. btw have you noticed drug use among your peers? ive notice a few students using ritalin (sp?) inappropriately during finals.

[This message has been edited by DrDMD05 (edited 03-13-2001).]

 

[DrDMD05]

oh yeah i forgot to tell you something w. even if i am absolutely wrong, i am not. i can not and will not be wrong. so if you think that you have seen a mistake, you have not and i must say that it must be you who are mistaken because i am a perfect DMD. DMD.
hows that for arrogance and ignorance?

 

[Dr. Pedo]

jeezzz, such venom spews from your fingertips! W. are we a little tired and ornery? ---seems to me I may "of" touched a sensitive spot. Don't get so defensive---I'm just having a little fun

!

Average people "the highest standard of poor" (which means you are really good at sucking really bad) rarely feel it is necessary to learn from mistakes; therefore, living a life of mediocrity. Et tu W.?

The voice of reason,
R.R.B

 

[turtleboard]

No, I don't think anyone here is using RITALIN. You know, guys, there's no reason for any misspellings now that there's a SPELL CHECK.

And, no, I wasn't getting defensive. I guess if I don't add a smiley face every other word no one knows how the heck I'm feeling.

I'm trying to decipher your last sentence, Dr.2b, and I think what you're trying to say is that being a dds/dmd is the same as being an average person. In other words you haven't learned from your failure in college to get into MD school and now you live a life of mediocrity.

I, on the other hand, am an above-average person. I would be the GREATEST PERSON ALIVE if I was at a private, top-10 medical school. Oh well... Oops...

Wouldn't want anyone to think I'm actually serious.

W.

 

[DrDMD05]

w who spelled ritalin wrong? read my former message about you being wrong and me being right.

😛

 

[turtleboard]

Come on, guys, it's not funny anymore. Just admit you guys can't spell for crap and we'll leave it at that!


W.

 

[Dr. Pedo]

A wiseman once said, "do you want to be rich or right?" There are plenty of ppl who want to be right! Let them be----they actually think it matters.


Oh, so true,
R.R.B.

 

[dds2b]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by turtleboard:
Come on, guys, it's not funny anymore. Just admit you guys can't spell for crap and we'll leave it at that!


W.•

dam foool, whatcha talking aboot?... were write an your rong Ru.

 

[turtleboard]

So the thought of money rears its ugly head once again with you dentists! UNBELIEVABLE! CAN WE HAVE A FULL THREAD IN THE DENTAL FORUM WHERE dr.2b, drdmd05, or dds2b ARE PARTICIPATING AND WHERE THERE'S NO, NO, NO, NO MENTION OF MONEY???

Now that I'm done screaming at the top of my lungs, dds2b, is that a crack at my Asian heritage? I didn't find that funny.

W.

 

[dds2b]

Wu

I am an Asian

...say pook guy ah (JK)...I guess that's enough evidence.

When have I mentioned anything about money? You're the one who keeps bringing up the subject.

 

[turtleboard]

You dentists are beginning to all sound alike to me. I can't tell you guys apart anymore!

dds2b, you're lucky I understand Cantonese, and I figured you were Chinese since you were from Vancouver. Who there isn't? Sheesh...

Anyway have a good day wang ba dan!


W. (Gosh, I hope you can understand Mandarin...)