Was told to write my own LOR?

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I requested a letter from the nurse practitioner at the free clinic I volunteer at. However, she asked if I can write it myself and she'd sign off on it. She's likely busy from the other clinic she works for, has a family, other commitments, and I understand that my letter wouldn't be a first priority. I'm mainly asking for the letter because I wrote about the experiences from the clinic in my PS.

Should I just go without the letter from the NP? They logged me in their system for ~100 hours (and counting) & adcoms will be able to verify that.
 
Just write the letter, have her sign it, then store it on interfolio or something. It's nice to at least have it, in case you need it (maybe one of your other letter writer flakes). Not sure about the point of getting a letter from an NP tho, bc you're trying to show admissions committees that you want to become a physician and know what their role is in healthcare.
 
One of the doctors I shadowed asked me to do the same thing. I wrote it and e-mailed it to him. He approved, signed, added an official letterhead and uploaded it to AMCAS. (Just make sure to use professional vocab, proper grammar and sentence structure, and quadruple check for any errors). Also, it's okay boast about yourself on the letter, but don't go overboard.
 
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Follow-up:

I'm in the same situation and I'm not sure how to structure it. I don't know if I should include a little bit of background on the "letter writer" to show their credentials or...?
I'm thinking: P1- "writer" credentials/how I got the job, P2-4- 3 qualities and evaluations, P5- recommendation.

How are you/did you write yours?
 
ac62994 said:
Follow-up:

I'm in the same situation and I'm not sure how to structure it. I don't know if I should include a little bit of background on the "letter writer" to show their credentials or...?
I'm thinking: P1- "writer" credentials/how I got the job, P2-4- 3 qualities and evaluations, P5- recommendation.

How are you/did you write yours?
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You don't need to include background info on the health professional you shadowed. In P1, start with something similar to "I recommend ac62994 for admittance into your medical school program...I mentored him during his observation at X medical facility and he will make a fine addition to the Class of 2020." In P2, explain what qualities and attributes you portrayed during observation that make you a successful med school candidate. Also, boast a little about your academic achievement and passion for biology and providing patient-centered care. In P3, conclude with what makes you a good candidate for the program (which can be a repetitive variation of P2), then end it off with something similar to "I strongly recommend him into your program without reservation." Don't make this letter longer than it needs to be.
 
I agree with my peers here, write the letter. It happens all the time, I wrote one of my own, and it's not a big deal really. Letter-writers can be busy people and this expedites the situation for both of you.

I would like to add it might be helpful to look at qualities you'd like to emphasize that may not be highlighted in your other letters, and fill in these gaps with the letter you write (for example, your patient-centered mindset if all your other letters are from your professors.)
 
Am I the only one who thinks that this is morally wrong?

1. If you spent that much time with the NP, they should have no issue writing you a letter. It would take 15 minutes.

2. There is an intent to deceive here. I would not be ok with this as an adcom. Maybe reconsider this, or call the school and see what they think.


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caffeine is my drug said:
Am I the only one who thinks that this is morally wrong?

1. If you spent that much time with the NP, they should have no issue writing you a letter. It would take 15 minutes.

2. There is an intent to deceive here. I would not be ok with this as an adcom. Maybe reconsider this, or call the school and see what they think.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
Click to expand...
1. Writing a good letter does not take 15 minutes. These health professionals have extremely busy schedules and the mere fact they allow anyone to shadow themselves is a privilege.

2. There is no intent to deceive if the letter is first approved and uploaded by the NP themselves. The NP can read over the letter and make any necessary changes before upload.
 
BigBoss said:
1. Writing a good letter does not take 15 minutes. These health professionals have extremely busy schedules and the mere fact they allow anyone to shadow themselves is a privilege.

2. There is no intent to deceive if the letter is first approved and uploaded by the NP themselves. The NP can read over the letter and make any necessary changes before upload.
Click to expand...

Call an adcom and see if they care. Personally, I do.


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caffeine is my drug said:
Am I the only one who thinks that this is morally wrong?

1. If you spent that much time with the NP, they should have no issue writing you a letter. It would take 15 minutes.

2. There is an intent to deceive here. I would not be ok with this as an adcom. Maybe reconsider this, or call the school and see what they think.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
Click to expand...
No, not morally wrong. LOR are usually reviewed and edited, then upload to letterhead and signed. You are assisting them in an admin task. Also, gives you an opportunity to include things they might not remember to add.
 
It's definitely morally wrong lol. But so common that everyone turns a blind eye to its possibility. Doesn't mean it is ethical all of a sudden.

Rainbow Zebra said:
No, not morally wrong. LOR are usually reviewed and edited, then upload to letterhead and signed. You are assisting them in an admin task. Also, gives you an opportunity to include things they might not remember to add.
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Writing an LoR about yourself that claims to have been written by the person it actually wasn't written by is one of the most outrageous things I've ever heard but this is SDN and I guess you gotta do whatever you need to do in order to impress the adcoms.
 
WedgeDawg said:
This is pretty common. Just write one, don't go too overboard, and then have her sign it. Doesn't matter that' she's an NP, she was your supervisor for a position, so this will be a letter that you should definitely include in your application.
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Hah, I disagree. Write the letter, yes, but totally go overboard. Sing your own praises. You've been given the chance to write an extremely positive letter about yourself that someone else will look over and endorse, so write it well, and call yourself amazing.

Have someone objective look it over to make sure it doesn't say anything absolutely ridiculous, and then enjoy having a letter for which you know you'll want to submit.
 
caffeine is my drug said:
Am I the only one who thinks that this is morally wrong?

1. If you spent that much time with the NP, they should have no issue writing you a letter. It would take 15 minutes.

2. There is an intent to deceive here. I would not be ok with this as an adcom. Maybe reconsider this, or call the school and see what they think.
Click to expand...

I also think it's morally wrong as well. I can understand getting this request from someone who doesn't really know you and wouldn't know what to say, but getting this from someone you invested time with and has the capability to write you a sincere, positive LOR is inappropriate IMO. I understand people are busy, but given enough time, they should be able to handle it.

I spent over 500 hours volunteering at a local family-run office, any they asked me to write my own LOR. Frankly, I didn't feel right doing this and I was a little insulted that someone who knew me that well couldn't take 45 minutes out of their schedule in the course of three months to write me a LOR. I ended up not pursuing this option, which definitely hurt my app, but at least I know that I'm providing a 100% authentic picture of myself to the ADCOMS. I don't care if this system is a sh** storm for the most part - that doesn't mean I have to compromise my own morals.

When I become a physician and am on the receiving end of this, I'm going to be straightforward with people when they ask me for a LOR. If I haven't spent enough time with them to actually know them, I'll tell them that. If it's not going to be a great one, I'll also let them know. But if they're a genuine person and I want to see them in medical school in the future, you can be damn sure I'm going to carve time out of my day and write that letter with my own hands.
 
brenasuarus said:
I also think it's morally wrong as well. I can understand getting this request from someone who doesn't really know you and wouldn't know what to say, but getting this from someone you invested time with and has the capability to write you a sincere, positive LOR is inappropriate IMO. I understand people are busy, but given enough time, they should be able to handle it.

I spent over 500 hours volunteering at a local family-run office, any they asked me to write my own LOR. Frankly, I didn't feel right doing this and I was a little insulted that someone who knew me that well couldn't take 45 minutes out of their schedule in the course of three months to write me a LOR. I ended up not pursuing this option, which definitely hurt my app, but at least I know that I'm providing a 100% authentic picture of myself to the ADCOMS. I don't care if this system is a sh** storm for the most part - that doesn't mean I have to compromise my own morals.

When I become a physician and am on the receiving end of this, I'm going to be straightforward with people when they ask me for a LOR. If I haven't spent enough time with them to actually know them, I'll tell them that. If it's not going to be a great one, I'll also let them know. But if they're a genuine person and I want to see them in medical school in the future, you can be damn sure I'm going to carve time out of my day and write that letter with my own hands.
Click to expand...

I think that's great. I also think that writing your own letter, provided you are asked to and aren't doing it preemptively, does not violate any ethical standard that I know of. Some people aren't the type to get to know you intimately no matter how much you've worked for them, and I think having the self-awareness to know that you aren't able to write a great letter is important. I think your wish not to sign off on a letter not written by yourself is acceptable, but I don't share your disdain for those who don't write every word they sign off on.
 
tantacles said:
I think that's great. I also think that writing your own letter, provided you are asked to and aren't doing it preemptively, does not violate any ethical standard that I know of. Some people aren't the type to get to know you intimately no matter how much you've worked for them, and I think having the self-awareness to know that you aren't able to write a great letter is important. I think your wish not to sign off on a letter not written by yourself is acceptable, but I don't share your disdain for those who don't write every word they sign off on.
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I forget which secondary, maybe NYU's that I saw asked if you thought this practice was unethical haha
 
tantacles said:
I also think that writing your own letter, provided you are asked to and aren't doing it preemptively, does not violate any ethical standard that I know of.
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Just my own ethical standards. I understand why it's done and I'm not trying to knock the premeds/LOR writers who do it this way (well, maybe I am a little), but it should be known than this practice certainly isn't acceptable to everyone out there. But hey, not a lot that I can do besides change the system once I'm in it.

tantacles said:
Some people aren't the type to get to know you intimately no matter how much you've worked for them.
Click to expand...
Absolutely true, it's just devastating when they do really know you and for some reason opt not to write the letter themselves. I'm weary of singing my own praises - that's what the primary and secondary essays are for IMO. Most of my LOR writers were absolutely thrilled to write the recommendation for me, so it just didn't seem right to created such a forced letter based on the other responses.
 
In before "if you write your own LOR, how can you be trusted with people's lives as a physician."

This is an extremely common practice in academia. A PI of mine made me do this once. He explained that every grant he's applied for, he has had to write his own LORs. People don't always have the time to write meaningful letters. He ended up not using my letter and writing his own anyway.
 
idontwatchgreysanatomy said:
In before "if you write your own LOR, how can you be trusted with people's lives as a physician."

This is an extremely common practice in academia. A PI of mine made me do this once. He explained that every grant he's applied for, he has had to write his own LORs. People don't always have the time to write meaningful letters. He ended up not using my letter and writing his own anyway.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone is saying they wouldn't do it with their back up against the wall - but that doesn't change recognizing it as unethical lol
 
There's nothing wrong with writing your own LOR... as long as the professor/mentor looks over it and agrees with what is said then it might as well be their own words. As long as there isn't any blatant deception of your writer or of the adcoms in the content of the letter what is the difference?
 
medic86 said:
"Morally wrong"

Hahaha. Classic SDN.
Click to expand...

Rainbow Zebra said:
Yup, I guess I'll be burning in hell for this moral and ethical lapse.
Click to expand...

idontwatchgreysanatomy said:
In before "if you write your own LOR, how can you be trusted with people's lives as a physician."

This is an extremely common practice in academia. A PI of mine made me do this once. He explained that every grant he's applied for, he has had to write his own LORs. People don't always have the time to write meaningful letters. He ended up not using my letter and writing his own anyway.
Click to expand...

NotWayneBrady said:
There's nothing wrong with writing your own LOR... as long as the professor/mentor looks over it and agrees with what is said then it might as well be their own words. As long as there isn't any blatant deception of your writer or of the adcoms in the content of the letter what is the difference?
Click to expand...

LOL. I can't believe I'm reading this. It is completely wrong to write your own Letter of Recommendation. It ruins the entire point of the letter and the adcoms who read it should reject you (and probably would) if they found out. There is no reason for me to even explain why it is wrong. It is simply wrong in every single context unless the person cannot physically write the letter and needs you to transcribe it in their own words.
 
Udreamin said:
LOL. I can't believe I'm reading this. It is completely wrong to write your own Letter of Recommendation. It ruins the entire point of the letter and the adcoms who read it should reject you (and probably would) if they found out. There is no reason for me to even explain why it is wrong. It is simply wrong in every single context unless the person cannot physically write the letter and needs you to transcribe it in their own words.
Click to expand...

Uh huh.
 
Udreamin said:
LOL. I can't believe I'm reading this. It is completely wrong to write your own Letter of Recommendation. It ruins the entire point of the letter and the adcoms who read it should reject you (and probably would) if they found out. There is no reason for me to even explain why it is wrong. It is simply wrong in every single context unless the person cannot physically write the letter and needs you to transcribe it in their own words.
Click to expand...
Sure thing, buddy.
 
I don't see what's wrong with it. In the legal field, sometimes we have to get a paralegal to write a brief, which the lawyer then approves and files. Heck, OFTEN an associate writes a brief, then the partner puts his/her name on it and files it. As long as the person whose signature it bears agrees with it and has had the opportunity to amend anything with which he or she does not agree, then I don't see anything morally wrong with it at all. Now, I do agree that it would be a problem if I were to write my own glowing LOR, forge my professor's/employer's/coordinator's name on it, and send it off, but this thread isn't about that.
 
Rainbow Zebra said:
Yup, they are seeing the world in black and white. Let's see how that works out for them!!
Click to expand...
Because forget the real world implications, right?
ADSigMel said:
I don't see what's wrong with it. In the legal field, sometimes we have to get a paralegal to write a brief, which the lawyer then approves and files. Heck, OFTEN an associate writes a brief, then the partner puts his/her name on it and files it. As long as the person whose signature it bears agrees with it and has had the opportunity to amend anything with which he or she does not agree, then I don't see anything morally wrong with it at all. Now, I do agree that it would be a problem if I were to write my own glowing LOR, forge my professor's/employer's/coordinator's name on it, and send it off, but this thread isn't about that.
Click to expand...

Politicians often don't write their own bills, either.
 
Udreamin said:
LOL. I can't believe I'm reading this. It is completely wrong to write your own Letter of Recommendation. It ruins the entire point of the letter and the adcoms who read it should reject you (and probably would) if they found out. There is no reason for me to even explain why it is wrong. It is simply wrong in every single context unless the person cannot physically write the letter and needs you to transcribe it in their own words.
Click to expand...
Must be hard to breathe in the thin air all the way up there on your high horse. This is a common practice in academia. Nobody asks you to write your own letter and then signs it without looking at it. They review it, edit it, and when they put their name on the line, that is an endorsement of those words. OP, it is a moral gray zone, for sure, but you're not going to change the world, so see this for the opportunity it is and write the letter. Or, if you're like @Udreamin here and it's "completely wrong," then don't. I would. You're making sure everything gets down on paper, so that the letter writer can edit it as necessary and submit it. If a letter writer would have included a bit of information but forgot while writing, would it be immoral to remind them? If a letter writer didn't know how to spell recommendation (one or two 'c's?), would it be immoral to hand them a dictionary? The world isn't black and white, and sometimes you have to be your own advocate.
 
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Whoa -- I can't believe how many people are outraged by this! I have drafted sooo many letters of recommendation for myself throughout the years, for internships, fellowships and for this recent AMCAS cycle. The PI I worked for after college also had me (her research assistant) draft a LORs for her post-doctoral mentees that were applying to fellowships (I had always met them and worked with them in some capacity). She ALWAYS looked them over and made some significant additions and edits to make sure that they were accurate and quality material, but she was too busy to write them all from scratch so having a backbone to work with was incredibly helpful.

I used to be insulted and annoyed when asked to draft my own letter, but now I welcome the opportunity to remind folks of some of the cooler things I've done for them and avoid a rushed, generic letter.
 
BigBoss said:
@gyngyn Can we get your insight into this matter, doctor?
Click to expand...
It is common practice to ask for a draft from the person for whom the letter is requested.
There is no breach of confidentiality because the letter writer requested the draft and has complete authority to amend, re-write or discard as much as desired.
 
gyngyn said:
It is common practice to ask for a draft from the person for whom the letter is requested.
There is no breach of confidentiality because the letter writer requested the draft and has complete authority to amend, re-write or discard as much as desired.
Click to expand...
Yes, you don't know what is actually submitted. They are free to edit, change, or discard at their discretion. If the esteemed Gyngyn has no issue with it, I don't have any issue with it either.
 
Phew! *currently writing mine atm* 😴
 
Udreamin said:
LOL. I can't believe I'm reading this. It is completely wrong to write your own Letter of Recommendation. It ruins the entire point of the letter and the adcoms who read it should reject you (and probably would) if they found out. There is no reason for me to even explain why it is wrong. It is simply wrong in every single context unless the person cannot physically write the letter and needs you to transcribe it in their own words.
Click to expand...

Look at this completely clueless individual. Sigh.
 
caffeine is my drug said:
Am I the only one who thinks that this is morally wrong?

1. If you spent that much time with the NP, they should have no issue writing you a letter. It would take 15 minutes.

2. There is an intent to deceive here. I would not be ok with this as an adcom. Maybe reconsider this, or call the school and see what they think.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
Click to expand...
Here's the thing- if you hand them something they don't like, they'll edit it, remove it, or change it. It isn't that they don't want to write you the letter, it's that their time is very limited, and they often don't write many such letters, so they're asking you to do them the favor of drafting something that they can work with or approve, rather than making them feel like they've got a homework assignment hanging over their head.
 
Does anyone have a link to a sample? I was just asked to do this and I feel very awkward about it...
 
iluvbeingpremed said:
Does anyone have a link to a sample? I was just asked to do this and I feel very awkward about it...
Click to expand...

There are lots of examples online but I would also recommend you look at the AMCAS guide to letter writers and go from there. I would link you but I'm on mobile. It has detailed instructions for letter writers and gives attributes that they would be interested in seeing assessed in the letter. Figure out which of those attributes are in the scope of your relationship to the writer and write about them!
 
ifnotnowwren said:
There are lots of examples online but I would also recommend you look at the AMCAS guide to letter writers and go from there. I would link you but I'm on mobile. It has detailed instructions for letter writers and gives attributes that they would be interested in seeing assessed in the letter. Figure out which of those attributes are in the scope of your relationship to the writer and write about them!
Click to expand...
Okay thank you!
 
iluvbeingpremed said:
Okay thank you!
Click to expand...

I used the AMCAS general guidelines for letter writers to find my main talking points and followed the general structure of:

1. Who I am (BRIEF)
2. How I know the applicant
3. Why I recommend them, including a few specific examples.
 
NotWayneBrady said:
I used the AMCAS general guidelines for letter writers to find my main talking points and followed the general structure of:

1. Who I am (BRIEF)
2. How I know the applicant
3. Why I recommend them, including a few specific examples.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think its just really awkward writing in 1st person from someone else's POV :/
 
mgmg1230 said:
I requested a letter from the nurse practitioner at the free clinic I volunteer at. However, she asked if I can write it myself and she'd sign off on it. She's likely busy from the other clinic she works for, has a family, other commitments, and I understand that my letter wouldn't be a first priority. I'm mainly asking for the letter because I wrote about the experiences from the clinic in my PS.

Should I just go without the letter from the NP? They logged me in their system for ~100 hours (and counting) & adcoms will be able to verify that.
Click to expand...

To be honest, it is a huge pain to do, but there's also a privilege to being able to sculpt the letter yourself. I understand why people do this, particularly if they're busy. It really helps in making it be a good letter.
 
Udreamin said:
Writing an LoR about yourself that claims to have been written by the person it actually wasn't written by is one of the most outrageous things I've ever heard but this is SDN and I guess you gotta do whatever you need to do in order to impress the adcoms.
Click to expand...

oh dear.. good luck dealing with research PIs then. nearly all of them want you to draft letters for them.
 
brenasuarus said:
I also think it's morally wrong as well. I can understand getting this request from someone who doesn't really know you and wouldn't know what to say, but getting this from someone you invested time with and has the capability to write you a sincere, positive LOR is inappropriate IMO. I understand people are busy, but given enough time, they should be able to handle it.

I spent over 500 hours volunteering at a local family-run office, any they asked me to write my own LOR. Frankly, I didn't feel right doing this and I was a little insulted that someone who knew me that well couldn't take 45 minutes out of their schedule in the course of three months to write me a LOR. I ended up not pursuing this option, which definitely hurt my app, but at least I know that I'm providing a 100% authentic picture of myself to the ADCOMS. I don't care if this system is a sh** storm for the most part - that doesn't mean I have to compromise my own morals.

When I become a physician and am on the receiving end of this, I'm going to be straightforward with people when they ask me for a LOR. If I haven't spent enough time with them to actually know them, I'll tell them that. If it's not going to be a great one, I'll also let them know. But if they're a genuine person and I want to see them in medical school in the future, you can be damn sure I'm going to carve time out of my day and write that letter with my own hands.
Click to expand...

A GOOD letter of rec takes much longer than 45 minutes to complete. It takes a few drafts, time to collect ideas, and write a thoughtful, cohesive letter of rec. My LOR writer who wrote one for an internship wrote 4-5 different drafts, asked me to read it over to double check for grammar and other mistakes and then sent it. So couple this with the time constraint they have, and you see why they sometimes defer to the student to write the LOR.
 
Speaking as a clinical instructor of nursing: some faculty will use the student's attempt at a self-written LOR to judge what to put in their own version. In this instance, the student's LOR will never see the light of day. Instead, it's being used as a psychometric tool. For example, if the professor/manager/rotation director/whoever asks you to write your own LOR, and you make yourself out to be the illegitimate great-grandchild of Elizabeth Blackwell and John Hunter, with Galen and Hippocrates standing godfathers at your baptism in the ruins of the Temple of Asclepias*, the writer might revise their own letter to read "Candidate X has performed adequate work in my rotation, but suffers from an inflated sense of self-worth to the profession of medicine." Likewise, if you low-ball the letter, the FOR is likely to take your statement at face value, which may work to your detriment if you tend toward self-abasement. This approach is extremely common in humanities and social sciences, and gaining much more favor in allied health (a point if the OP's letter is being written by an NP, as he/she is likely accustomed to this letter format).

If you're offered a self-written LOR by one of your chosen recommending faculty/other professionals, I wouldn't hyperventilate over the ethics or legality of it, as that letter isn't ever going to land as-is in front of an ADCOM. Instead, treat it as a written interview. Be honest about both your strengths and your shortcomings. The writer will reward you with their own work product.

*hyperbole for humor's sake
 
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