Was Touro right or wrong?

[FutureNavyDOc]

Do you believe it was within Touro's rights as a private institution to decide not to recognize the GLBT club on campus?

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[gagolden]

Touro should have started a straight club instead


so creative

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

Touro should have started a straight club instead


so creative

I tried to think of as many possibilities as I could.

Interesting to see the disparity in opinions so far compared to the overwhelming sentiment on the "Touro hates gays" thread.

 

[kaikai128]

Private Universities make decisions based upon their beliefs all the time. My brother happens to go to a conservative Baptist college on a baseball scholarship. Part of his education is a REQUIREMENT to take classes on theology, as well as attend weekly services. It doesn't matter if he agrees with the concept or not--he still has to abide.

Regardless of any personal views, I think that anyone going to a Private University has to be willing to accept the views of that institution.

Be happy, in the end everyone is still going to get what they went to the university for--a medical education. I don't understand why medical school needs to be a political forum for anyone.

 

[bth7]

Do you believe it was within Touro's rights as a private institution to decide not to recognize the GLBT club on campus?

I am a member of the Touro University community. Most people at Touro, myself included, recognize Touro's right to hold to religious beliefs, and to have those beliefs reflected in the policies the University.

None of that is in question, or was ever questioned, by the Touro University Gay-Straight Alliance.

In my opinion, your poll is disingenuous at best. None of the options in your list are "I respect the right of GLBT students to organize a student group at Touro that receives the same recognition as other student groups enjoy:, e.g.: Mormon, Asian, Muslim, Pro-Choice, Pro-Life."
or
"I respect the rights of Touro University to exercise its religious freedom at the same time as I respect the Touro University Gay-Straight Alliance's right to exist. There is a reasonable way to accommodate both at one university."

But that might not produce the poll results your looking for, would it?

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

I am a member of the Touro University community. Most people at Touro, myself included, recognize Touro's right to hold to religious beliefs, and to have those beliefs reflected in the policies the University.

None of that is in question, or was ever in questioned, by the Touro University Gay-Straight Alliance.

In my opinion, your poll is disingenuous at best. None of the options in your list are "I respect the right of GLBT students to organize a student group at Touro that receives the same recognition as other student groups enjoy:, e.g.: Mormon, Asian, Muslim, Pro-Choice, Pro-Life."
or
"I respect the rights of Touro University to exercise its religious freedom at the same time as I respect the Touro University Gay-Straight Alliance's right to exist. There is a reasonable way to accommodate both at one university."

But that might not produce the poll results your looking for, would it?

It matters not if we/the students that go there, support the GLBT or not. Its their money; their decision. You don't like it you say? Well, apparently its easy to start an osteopathic school these days....have at it.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

I am a member of the Touro University community. Most people at Touro, myself included, recognize Touro's right to hold to religious beliefs, and to have those beliefs reflected in the policies the University.

None of that is in question, or was ever in questioned, by the Touro University Gay-Straight Alliance.

In my opinion, your poll is disingenuous at best. None of the options in your list are "I respect the right of GLBT students to organize a student group at Touro that receives the same recognition as other student groups enjoy:, e.g.: Mormon, Asian, Muslim, Pro-Choice, Pro-Life."
or
"I respect the rights of Touro University to exercise its religious freedom at the same time as I respect the Touro University Gay-Straight Alliance's right to exist. There is a reasonable way to accommodate both at one university."

But that might not produce the poll results your looking for, would it?

Before you jump to conclusions, maybe you should do some research on the polls on SDN. They limit you to 100 characters per answer. I had a lot more written for that answer choice but had to cut it back to meet the limit.


How is "Touro should treat all clubs equally regardless of what the group stands for." any different from your suggestion?

I think you're more upset with the results of the poll than the options presented.



As Buckeye said, if you have such a problem with it, start your own school, everyone else is doing it!

As far as calling this poll disingenious at best, you make assumptions and decisions of right and wrong faster than those who you accuse of being prejudiced. I sincerely want to know people's opinions. On your thread it's a big GLBT love-fest and anyone who posts a contradicting opinion is shot down and called a homophobe. I wanted to give people a place where every vote counts equally no matter how loud you scream or how many 8 paragraph posts you make, after all isn't that what America is all about?

 

[DD214_DOC]

It's a private university so yeah, I think they can do whatever they want. Those who are disgruntled about a religion-affiliated university not supporting their beliefs probably should have thought twice about attending a religious institution.

Two, why do these med students even have time to worry about this?

 

[homeboy]

Two, why do these med students even have time to worry about this?

Ha! There's the million dollar question!

The LGBT groups are the first to scream discrimination, but if someone doesn't toe the line and respect them, they're quick to label others as bigoted homophobes.

It reminds me of undergrad.

 

[bth7]

Before you jump to conclusions, maybe you should do some research on the polls on SDN. They limit you to 100 characters per answer. I had a lot more written for that answer choice but had to cut it back to meet the limit.
How is "Touro should treat all clubs equally regardless of what the group stands for." any different from your suggestion?

I think you're more upset with the results of the poll than the options presented.

As Buckeye said, if you have such a problem with it, start your own school, everyone else is doing it!

As far as calling this poll disingenious at best, you make assumptions and decisions of right and wrong faster than those who you accuse of being prejudiced. I sincerely want to know people's opinions. On your thread it's a big GLBT love-fest and anyone who posts a contradicting opinion is shot down and called a homophobe. I wanted to give people a place where every vote counts equally no matter how loud you scream or how many 8 paragraph posts you make, after all isn't that what America is all about?

To clarify my position on your results, I voted for option #1 - saying that Touro should be free to exercise its religious rights.

I'm suggesting that your poll fails to address the prima facie question at hand – namely whether or not the banning by a University of a group, whose mission is to educate young doctors-to-be about the patient care issues of homosexual and transgender persons, is related to religious freedom.

As far as what America is all about, I wouldn't know. I do applaud your efforts to make your opinions known, regardless of how hackneyed I find them to be.

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

Ha! There's the million dollar question!

The LGBT groups are the first to scream discrimination, but if someone doesn't toe the line and respect them, they're quick to label others as bigoted homophobes.

It reminds me of undergrad.

Yes, because all LBGT groups everywhere think and act exactly alike. Just like those uppity so-and-sos and those shifty fill-in-the-blanks. Mmm, stereotyping is fun

I agree with PP that a compromise should be met.

It's also a question of civil rights. A private restaurant, for example, doesn't have the right to segregate its patrons based on race. But, legally, LGBT status is not afforded the same rights as something such as race or disability as far as I know. As of a few years ago I know you could fire someone for being gay and it was legal (my sister worked for the EEOC, so I'm assuming the info was reliable). I'm bringing this up since one option indicates a private institution can do as it pleases. Just food for thought...

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

To clarify my position on your results, I voted for option #1 - saying that Touro should be free to exercise its religious rights.

I'm suggesting that your poll fails to address the prima facie question at hand – namely whether or not the banning by a University of a group, whose mission is to educate young doctors-to-be about the patient care issues of homosexual and transgender persons, is related to religious freedom.

As far as what America is all about, I wouldn't know. I do applaud your efforts to make your opinions known, regardless of how hackneyed I find them to be.

I don't believe that this has anything to do with religious freedom as much as it has to do with a private institution being allowed to do as they please with their own money and what groups they allow to represent themselves.

What I was saying about America is that the ability for a person or a private institution to do as they please with their money is a very key part of what makes America the nation it is.

As far as educating young doctors to be about patient care issues of homosexual and transgendered individuals, why do you need club status to do that?

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

What I was saying about America is that the ability for a person or a private institution to do as they please with their money is a very key part of what makes America the nation it is.

If this were not the case, how would we be any different than China?


Its a rhetorical question. Im just making a point.

 

[heech]

It's also a question of civil rights.

I don't think you understand what "civil rights" in this country implies.

Regardless of ethnicity, gender, religious faith... (and in many states, sexual orientation), you have the *right* to a job, to vote, to access to health care, to housing, and to other public service by virtue of your citizenship.

No one has the "civil right" to attend a private university, private school, private golf course... for any reason.

 

[heech]

I'm suggesting that your poll fails to address the prima facie question at hand – namely whether or not the banning by a University of a group, whose mission is to educate young doctors-to-be about the patient care issues of homosexual and transgender persons, is related to religious freedom.

I think it's precisely about religious freedom. In this country at least, religious freedom implies much. Various courts have validated the rights of parents to deny their children health care in the name of religious practice, even if it leads to their actual death. The "banning" (and I put that word in quotes because I find your usage of the word disingenious and inaccurate) of TUGSA is a very minor offense in comparison.

In response to the first poster's question... my answer is in two parts. First, in my opinion, Touro was wrong to eliminate funding for the LGBT community. I'm not an orthodox Jew, and I absolutely do think medical schools at large would benefit from more LGBT presence/education. Second, in my opinion, Touro absolutely had the right to be wrong. That, the last time I checked, is exactly what this country is supposed to be about: the right for citizens to disagree and live differing lifestyles.

bth7, maybe you can help us understand your position by discussing a few hypotheticals.

1) Should we attack the United Negro College Fund for "banning" all non-African American students from receiving their funding?

2) Do you believe there's any place for male-only or female-only private schools in this country?

3) Do you believe religious institutions have the freedom to select only males or females to their training programs? Whether male-only Buddhist monks, or male-only Catholic priests?

I like to think I have an open mind. I'd like to hear your explanation of how you perceive the appropriateness of gender/race-based "banning" in the above cases.

 

[bth7]

I don't believe that this has anything to do with religious freedom as much as it has to do with a private institution being allowed to do as they please with their own money and what groups they allow to represent themselves.

If you don't believe that this has "anything to do with" religion than why did you put the phrase "religious beliefs" qua justification for Touro's actions in your poll?

What I was saying about America is that the ability for a person or a private institution to do as they please with their money is a very key part of what makes America the nation it is.

Agreed, under the current administration, American values equals the values of those with money.

As far as educating young doctors to be about patient care issues of homosexual and transgender individuals, why do you need club status to do that?

We don't. You are doing a great job of that for us by educating everyone on just how hard is it for people in the military to come out of the closet.

 

[djc1981]

This post is clearly slanted, through the wording, to get the results that the good ole' navy boy (read Republican) wanted. Of course people will vote a certain way when you phrase it so as to make the voter decide if a school should have free rights. It's like asking "Do you believe abortion is wrong, or do you support mutilating future toddlers?" Alas, I do agree that Touro has full rights to do as it wishes. I just thought i'd point that out. I learned about poll questioning in my poli sci class, so I thought i'd be a dork and actually apply something ive learned in college

 

[yanky5]

This post is clearly slanted, through the wording, to get the results that the good ole' navy boy (read Republican) wanted.

The poll just shows you what people really think. It is evident from the poll that most people including myself think the private college has a right to reject clubs based on religious beliefs.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

If you don't believe that this has "anything to do with" religion than why did you put the phrase "religious beliefs" qua justification for Touro's actions in your poll?

You're only reading what you want to read. I said I don't think this has anything to do with religious freedom. I believe that a religious private institution has every right to make decisions based on their religious beliefs, I never said anything about their ability to establish a religion, or the free exercise thereof, only about their ability and right to use their beliefs as a basis for chosing how to spend their money. If a private school chose not to support a branch of the NAACP I would support their right to spend their money as they chose.

Agreed, under the current administration, American values equals the values of those with money.

As with under every administration before it! Please tell me you don't believe that Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, and every othe presidential administration before them never took money from special interest groups.

Wake-up call for ya, ever seen a senatoUS Congressman/woman driving a crap car living in the ghetto? Of course not, for the most part they live in multi-million dollar houses. Do you think they can afford those houses on the base salary of $165,200?

Also, why does everyone these days try to blame everything on Bush? I'm not saying the dude's right 100% of the time or even 50%, but the poor guy gets blamed for Hurricane Katrina, Gas Prices going up (though interestingly gas prices going down wasn't his fault), illegal immigration, racism, obesity, and hemorrhoids amongst others.
Heck, I'll jump on the bandwagon, it's W's fault my clutch went out on my 145,000 mile car in the middle of Kentucky. W owes me $700!

We don't. You are doing a great job of that for us by educating everyone on just how hard is it for people in the military to come out of the closet.

1. I'm not now nor have I ever been active duty in the military. I won't be for 2 more years and even then I will be amongst the lowest of peons in the Medical Corps taking care of the men and women who risk their lives so people like you can say whatever you want without risk of repercussions.

2. Even when I am on active duty, the medical corps has extremely little to do with Navy policy outside of the health care arena so to blame me for your dislike of military policy is about as well placed as me blaming you for the $7.50 I wasted going to see Tom Cruise in Collateral.

3. It's not hard at all to come out of the closet in the military, you just open the door and step out just like in the civilian world.

4. It's not hard for people to come out of the closet in the military, it just means that they are dismissed from their military obligation. The military will aslo discharge people who become too fat but I've never heard an obese person whine about it.

This post is clearly slanted, through the wording, to get the results that the good ole' navy boy (read Republican) wanted. Of course people will vote a certain way when you phrase it so as to make the voter decide if a school should have free rights. It's like asking "Do you believe abortion is wrong, or do you support mutilating future toddlers?" Alas, I do agree that Touro has full rights to do as it wishes. I just thought i'd point that out. I learned about poll questioning in my poli sci class, so I thought i'd be a dork and actually apply something ive learned in college

This poll is not slanted in the least, the votes are though by greater than a 2:1 ratio.
I'm not a republican and I'm also not a democrat. I vote based on the issues and who I think will be the better politician, not by lumping people together into all-encompassing groups like Nazi Germany.

Please, feel free to start your own un-slanted poll and show me how much the voting changes. I'll be sitting here watching the totally un-slanted CBS evening news waiting.

 

[Larch]

The poll is overly simplistic, so I didn't fill it in. In fact, none of the answer choices are even about whether Touro was right or wrong (depending on how you read them), and I suspect that many people wanted to choose both the first and the second answer.

I think Touro should treat all of it's clubs equally. It's my opinion that they should not have cut funding to the GSA. Hell, I think Touro should abandon any influence of religious beliefs in administration of a medical school.

It's also my opinion that they should be free to make decisions I disagree with, so long as they don't violate any previously formed charters/contracts or break any laws (though I think some laws need changing).

 

[Cuthbert]

This post is clearly slanted, through the wording, to get the results that the good ole' navy boy (read Republican) wanted. Of course people will vote a certain way when you phrase it so as to make the voter decide if a school should have free rights. It's like asking "Do you believe abortion is wrong, or do you support mutilating future toddlers?" Alas, I do agree that Touro has full rights to do as it wishes. I just thought i'd point that out. I learned about poll questioning in my poli sci class, so I thought i'd be a dork and actually apply something ive learned in college

Are we all adults here? If people don't like the choices, then they should not take the poll - some have not. Many have. The results simply show who believes in those particular answers.

If you want different poll questions, make a different poll.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

You're only reading what you want to read. I said I don't think this has anything to do with religious freedom. I believe that a religious private institution has every right to make decisions based on their religious beliefs, I never said anything about their ability to establish a religion, or the free exercise thereof, only about their ability and right to use their beliefs as a basis for chosing how to spend their money. If a private school chose not to support a branch of the NAACP I would support their right to spend their money as they chose.




As with under every administration before it! Please tell me you don't believe that Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, and every othe presidential administration before them never took money from special interest groups.

Wake-up call for ya, ever seen a senatoUS Congressman/woman driving a crap car living in the ghetto? Of course not, for the most part they live in multi-million dollar houses. Do you think they can afford those houses on the base salary of $165,200?

Also, why does everyone these days try to blame everything on Bush? I'm not saying the dude's right 100% of the time or even 50%, but the poor guy gets blamed for Hurricane Katrina, Gas Prices going up (though interestingly gas prices going down wasn't his fault), illegal immigration, racism, obesity, and hemorrhoids amongst others.
Heck, I'll jump on the bandwagon, it's W's fault my clutch went out on my 145,000 mile car in the middle of Kentucky. W owes me $700!





1. I'm not now nor have I ever been active duty in the military. I won't be for 2 more years and even then I will be amongst the lowest of peons in the Medical Corps taking care of the men and women who risk their lives so people like you can say whatever you want without risk of repercussions.

2. Even when I am on active duty, the medical corps has extremely little to do with Navy policy outside of the health care arena so to blame me for your dislike of military policy is about as well placed as me blaming you for the $7.50 I wasted going to see Tom Cruise in Collateral.

3. It's not hard at all to come out of the closet in the military, you just open the door and step out just like in the civilian world.

4. It's not hard for people to come out of the closet in the military, it just means that they are dismissed from their military obligation. The military will aslo discharge people who become too fat but I've never heard an obese person whine about it.





This poll is not slanted in the least, the votes are though by greater than a 2:1 ratio.
I'm not a republican and I'm also not a democrat. I vote based on the issues and who I think will be the better politician, not by lumping people together into all-encompassing groups like Nazi Germany.

Please, feel free to start your own un-slanted poll and show me how much the voting changes. I'll be sitting here watching the totally un-slanted CBS evening news waiting.

I agree with all of your points. And apparently the majority of people as you so aptly mentioned, agree with us as well.

 

[It'sElectric]

I appreciate your poll and think it's very interesting. If a person had read through the previous thread regarding this issue, then they would likely come away with the feeling that the majority of people felt contrary to how the voting is showing up now.

I honestly think that's a testament to the "Vocal Minority", and that is why I find this all so interesting.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Naturally. The people that were outvoted feel the need to plead their case.


Why would the majority do that? They are already the majority?

 

[It'sElectric]

Naturally. The people that were outvoted feel the need to plead their case.


Why would the majority do that? They are already the majority?

Exactly. The only problem is that it can mislead a lot of people.

 

[homeboy]

Bottom line: students are in medical school for medical education. The need for a specific LGBT ‘club' on campus is only justified if there is a medical relevance to the club's existence. Otherwise, it's simply a bunch of people with a certain lifestyle view that want to legitimize / voice their collected opinion. The LGBT issue is about lifestyle and its medical relevance is limited to epidemiology and reproductive health, so why isn't there a Heterosexual Student Association? Because the LGBT groups (particularly on campuses) are so very politically driven and inherently tied to certain political views.

And being that Touro is a private religious-based institution, it can do whatever it pleases, just as Yale can enroll an ex-Taliban soldier and Harvard can invite the ex-President of Iran to speak on September 11th as if he's a Nobel Prize winner. (tongue in cheek)

You people act amazed that an institution in the 21st century hasn't followed suit with the progressive liberalization of our educational system… Give me a break.

 

[bth7]

For those who are curious about how the media presented this particular story, all the major publications that can be referenced electronically are listed on the Wikipedia page for the group in question.

Here's a limk:

Wikipedia on Touro University Gay Straight Alliance

 

[hirundo82]

I do not think that the title of this thread and the poll are asking the same question. It is almost certainly within Tuoro's rights to revoke the club's charter. However, that does not mean it was the right decision morally. You have to remember that freedom often means also having the right to make an incorrect decision.

For what it is worth, I voted that Tuoro should be free to decide to not sponsor the group. If it had asked if they made the correct decision, I would have voted no. I think that if a school that accepts people no matter what their beliefs or values, they should either sponsor all clubs (within reason--ie no NAMBLA), or none at all.

 

[heech]

For what it is worth, I voted that Tuoro should be free to decide to not sponsor the group. If it had asked if they made the correct decision, I would have voted no. I think that if a school that accepts people no matter what their beliefs or values, they should either sponsor all clubs (within reason--ie no NAMBLA), or none at all.

Just to put a little perspective on that... anyone who interviews at Touro is made well aware of the fact that they're expected to respect orthodox Jewish beliefs. There is no kosher food available for sale on campus. The computer lab is made unavailable during Sabbath. The campus as a whole closes during Jewish religious holidays.

In fact, my understanding of Touro's raison d'etre is that they wanted a medical institution that would allow Jewish students to practice their faith while attending school. Please note that the point isn't to preach to non-Jewish students: applicants at Touro (as far as I know) aren't even asked asked whether they are Jewish.

Should Touro also providing funding for a Jews for Jesus group on campus? Anti-Zionist Association? Computer-Gaming-On-Saturday club? Ham-and-cheese club?

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

Bump

 

[siinew]

1. I'm not now nor have I ever been active duty in the military. I won't be for 2 more years and even then I will be amongst the lowest of peons in the Medical Corps taking care of the men and women who risk their lives so people like you can say whatever you want without risk of repercussions.

Please, feel free to start your own un-slanted poll and show me how much the voting changes. I'll be sitting here watching the totally un-slanted CBS evening news waiting.

1. I would venture to guess there are probably other people reading (and replying) in this thread, as well as other threads on this site, who have already risked their lives for their country, so your point #1 is really not much of the point I think you want it to be. I am one of those, and forgive the cliche, but it's true, I was jumping out of planes (Special Forces Medic) while you were <insert activity here, probably relating to your high school years>.

2. Dude, wtf is up with you and CBS news?!? I just have to hijack this post for one sec, sorry, but if you honestly think that CBS is slanted to the LEFT you have no f*cking idea what news really is. The entire news industry has shifted so far right over the past decade, that people like you can make asinine statements like that and nobody calls you on it. I won't hijack any further, but let me put it like this. If you REALLY look at world news, then Fox = Facism, CBS = Republican(t), NPR = centrist (on their leftist days), Christian Science Monitor = actual unbiased, international news, shows like "Democracy Now" = slightly left. I'll stop there. Sorry for the political commentary, but this is a bit of a political thread.

BTW, I actually agree with you and most of the folks on this thread, as to the actual OP. Touro is a private school. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. The notion that it even matters at a med school is kind of creepy to me. There are a lot more important things to be worrying about, if you're a med student there or anywhere else, imo.

 

[It'sElectric]

1. I would venture to guess there are probably other people reading (and replying) in this thread, as well as other threads on this site, who have already risked their lives for their country, so your point #1 is really not much of the point I think you want it to be. I am one of those, and forgive the cliche, but it's true, I was jumping out of planes (Special Forces Medic) while you were <insert activity here, probably relating to your high school years>.

2. Dude, wtf is up with you and CBS news?!? I just have to hijack this post for one sec, sorry, but if you honestly think that CBS is slanted to the LEFT you have no f*cking idea what news really is. The entire news industry has shifted so far right over the past decade, that people like you can make asinine statements like that and nobody calls you on it. I won't hijack any further, but let me put it like this. If you REALLY look at world news, then Fox = Facism, CBS = Republican(t), NPR = centrist (on their leftist days), Christian Science Monitor = actual unbiased, international news, shows like "Democracy Now" = slightly left. I'll stop there. Sorry for the political commentary, but this is a bit of a political thread.

BTW, I actually agree with you and most of the folks on this thread, as to the actual OP. Touro is a private school. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. The notion that it even matters at a med school is kind of creepy to me. There are a lot more important things to be worrying about, if you're a med student there or anywhere else, imo.

In terms of U.S. politics (not international), U.S. media is definitely slanted more left than right. I think a lot of people compare the U.S. media to international media/politics (inparticular Europe) and go on and on about how conservative it is. If you look at the actual U.S. political climate, you can tell that U.S. media is more liberal than conservative. Next, you'll say the New York Times is conservative.

 

[Kuba]

This is a very biasely written poll. I can't believe future doctors would not be more sympathetic to different types of people. Who cares about the right of the organization, care about the rights of the students there. I think they should have the right to a support group just as much as any other club on campus, and they should not be discriminated (i.e. not funded) Yes, legally Touro has the right, but they are bastards for taking a step backwards.

 

[siinew]

In terms of U.S. politics (not international), U.S. media is definitely slanted more left than right. I think a lot of people compare the U.S. media to international media/politics (inparticular Europe) and go on and on about how conservative it is. If you look at the actual U.S. political climate, you can tell that U.S. media is more liberal than conservative. Next, you'll say the New York Times is conservative.

Interesting you bring up international vs. US - that's a good point, although I don't think you wanted it to be. What you, as an American, consider liberal, is actually nowhere near liberal. I don't know if you have lived in a foreign country (being stationed on a military base doesn't count), but I'm guessing not. After living in Europe for several years (many years ago), I remember being appalled at how woefully mis- and underinformed most of my fellow Americans were once I returned home. The culture here of low voter turnouts, political apathy, 8th-grade-level journalism, poor education and TV network news - which is anything but liberal - creates an environment where you can say something like "you can tell that the U.S. media is more liberal than conservative" and probably actually even believe it yourself.

 

[Kuba]

This poll is not slanted in the least, the votes are though by greater than a 2:1 ratio.
I'm not a republican and I'm also not a democrat. I vote based on the issues and who I think will be the better politician, not by lumping people together into all-encompassing groups like Nazi Germany.
\

Are you joking? You should read your poll again. On a positive note, you have the tools necessary to be a successful politician, so congrats

 

[CatsandCradles]

Bottom line: students are in medical school for medical education. The need for a specific LGBT ‘club’ on campus is only justified if there is a medical relevance to the club’s existence. Otherwise, it’s simply a bunch of people with a certain lifestyle view that want to legitimize / voice their collected opinion. The LGBT issue is about lifestyle and its medical relevance is limited to epidemiology and reproductive health, so why isn’t there a Heterosexual Student Association? Because the LGBT groups (particularly on campuses) are so very politically driven and inherently tied to certain political views.


And being that Touro is a private religious-based institution, it can do whatever it pleases, just as Yale can enroll an ex-Taliban soldier and Harvard can invite the ex-President of Iran to speak on September 11th as if he’s a Nobel Prize winner. (tongue in cheek)

You people act amazed that an institution in the 21st century hasn’t followed suit with the progressive liberalization of our educational system… Give me a break.

Interesting. Interesting. I knew about Yale enrolling an ex-Taliban soldier, but Harvard...

 

[It'sElectric]

Interesting you bring up international vs. US - that's a good point, although I don't think you wanted it to be. What you, as an American, consider liberal, is actually nowhere near liberal. I don't know if you have lived in a foreign country (being stationed on a military base doesn't count), but I'm guessing not. After living in Europe for several years (many years ago), I remember being appalled at how woefully mis- and underinformed most of my fellow Americans were once I returned home. The culture here of low voter turnouts, political apathy, 8th-grade-level journalism, poor education and TV network news - which is anything but liberal - creates an environment where you can say something like "you can tell that the U.S. media is more liberal than conservative" and probably actually even believe it yourself.

You seriously misunderstood my post. You proved my point entirely, so thank you.

I'll try one more time for the reading impaired. You are correct, international politics are FAR more liberal than U.S. politics (just as I mentioned previously). Thus, by U.S. STANDARDS, the U.S. media does have a liberal slant.

Does that make sense now?

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

This is a very biasely written poll. I can't believe future doctors would not be more sympathetic to different types of people. Who cares about the right of the organization, care about the rights of the students there. I think they should have the right to a support group just as much as any other club on campus, and they should not be discriminated (i.e. not funded) Yes, legally Touro has the right, but they are bastards for taking a step backwards.

Touro never said that Gays couldn't congregate, they never said Gays couldn't attend their school, they never said that Gays couldn't have a club. All Touro said was that they weren't going to fund it.


I am very sympathetic to many different types of people when there is a reason to be so, however just because your groups beliefs don't mesh with those of your school is not a good enough reason for me. Do you think a Catholic school would provide funds for a Pro-abortion club? I doubt it. This is the exact same thing and I feel it is a tragedy the vocal minority used blackmail and the media to blow the situation way out of proportion instead of allowing a private institution to spend their money as they see fit.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

CBS = Republican(t),

With one comment you showed me and the entire world which side you are looking at the issues from.

Just because the news media is right of your apparent extreme leftist views doesn't make them republican.

As previously stated, they may be conservative relative to the world stage, however I am comparing them to US politics.

I have lived outside the US both in Germany and South Africa at the time the US was planning and then invding Iraq. I know how liberal foreign countries can be, especially their state-run media.

I thank you for your service to our country and respect you for it. My comment about my military commitment was in regards to an individual claiming that since I am affiliated with the military, I am homophobic and anti-gay. Considering one of my best friends from college was gay as well as several friends I have now, I would venture to say that I am neither.

 

[Kuba]

Touro never said that Gays couldn't congregate, they never said Gays couldn't attend their school, they never said that Gays couldn't have a club. All Touro said was that they weren't going to fund it.


I am very sympathetic to many different types of people when there is a reason to be so, however just because your groups beliefs don't mesh with those of your school is not a good enough reason for me. Do you think a Catholic school would provide funds for a Pro-abortion club? I doubt it. This is the exact same thing and I feel it is a tragedy the vocal minority used blackmail and the media to blow the situation way out of proportion instead of allowing a private institution to spend their money as they see fit.

Pro-abortion is a politcal stance/religious belief. Homosexuality is more like an ethnicity than a stance. Lets say there is a school founded by KKK members. Would it be ok for this school in your opinion to allow all types of clubs for all types of ethnicities except that they did not allow the African-American club to receive their funding?

 

[Kuba]

By the way, I am not personally invested in this. I don't have many homosexual friends and I am a straight male, but I think it is ridiculous to discriminate against the gay population in this manner.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

Pro-abortion is a politcal stance/religious belief. Homosexuality is more like an ethnicity than a stance. Lets say there is a school founded by KKK members. Would it be ok for this school in your opinion to allow all types of clubs for all types of ethnicities except that they did not allow the African-American club to receive their funding?

No offense Kuba, I really enjoy reading your posts but I think you off the mark on this one. Homosexuality is not ethnic or anything like it. In fact religion is more closely tied to ethnicity. It is a life style and does not fall under the same category. Having said that it doesn't mean the gay and lesbian community should be treated with disrespect but you have to understand where you fit into the social political scope of nation so you can best address the issues you are fighting for.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

Pro-abortion is a politcal stance/religious belief. Homosexuality is more like an ethnicity than a stance. Lets say there is a school founded by KKK members. Would it be ok for this school in your opinion to allow all types of clubs for all types of ethnicities except that they did not allow the African-American club to receive their funding?

Read Fizban's post, it is right on the money.


Homosexuality is not an ethnicity or even close. It is a sexual preference, just like S&M.


Regarding your KKK reference (which is not even remotely similar to the actual situation), I would defend the KKK group's right as a private institution to do as they pleased with their money. I wouldn't agree with it, but they have the right to spend their money as they see fit. The real question would be why would blacks (or jews or catholics for that matter) attend a school run by the KKK?

 

[siinew]

You seriously misunderstood my post. You proved my point entirely, so thank you.

I'll try one more time for the reading impaired. You are correct, international politics are FAR more liberal than U.S. politics (just as I mentioned previously). Thus, by U.S. STANDARDS, the U.S. media does have a liberal slant.

Does that make sense now?

No, it's you who misunderstood. The FACT that "by U.S. STANDARDS, the U.S. media does have a liberal slant." is exactly the problem.

Does that make sense now?

 

[siinew]

With one comment you showed me and the entire world which side you are looking at the issues from.

Just because the news media is right of your apparent extreme leftist views doesn't make them republican.

As previously stated, they may be conservative relative to the world stage, however I am comparing them to US politics.

I have lived outside the US both in Germany and South Africa at the time the US was planning and then invding Iraq. I know how liberal foreign countries can be, especially their state-run media.

I thank you for your service to our country and respect you for it. My comment about my military commitment was in regards to an individual claiming that since I am affiliated with the military, I am homophobic and anti-gay. Considering one of my best friends from college was gay as well as several friends I have now, I would venture to say that I am neither.

Wow, if that one comment showed you all that, you must possess special super-powers... perhaps the power to change reality at a whim? Sorry, but no, I am not extreme leftist. In fact, many of my opinions probably cross over into conservative territory, while many would be considered liberal, and some probably libertarian, in fact. But those are all just labels and categories, which are a clumsy representation of a person's opinions, and don't really speak to my original point.

CBS and FOX, and any network news in this country may not be state-run, it's true, but they are undoubtedly "corporate" run. Secondly, if there has EVER, in my lifetime, been a news media that has ventured close to being state-run in this country, it is the one under the current administration. Thirdly, the vast majority of the news media that are "state run" as you put it, are actually in military regimes which are quite far from liberal.

As to the "corporate run" US media, this puts a huge conservative slant on any news they report. From the stories they cherry pick, to the way they present. The CBS issue with GWB that you mentioned is a great example. That story was valid. If you had followed what went on after the smoke cleared, you would see that the person who broke the story, the original journalist who investigated it, you would see that the original story was actually true...and certainly not a surprise anyway. These and other events are written about in several books. Yes, yes, I know... the ol' Rush Limbaugh approach is one to pull out of the hip-pocket here: "Well, if they're writing about it, then it must be liberal, ergo it must be a lie."

Funny how anyone who stands up for nailing corporate corruption, environmental destruction, separation of church and state, locking up GOP pedophiles and rooting out hypocrisy behind those currently in power is a "dirty liberal." But then again, they are obviously all fueled by the liberal bastion... the center of the liberal USA.... CBS NEWS!!! OMG!!!

 

[Kuba]

Homosexuality is not an ethnicity or even close. It is a sexual preference, just like S&M.

From what I understand, this is not true. Why would anyone make the choice to be discriminated all their lives?

But anyway, I see some of your points, but why not throw away all talk about the organizations rights and blah blah blah. In the end, don't you feel for this group of students that got kicked in the face by their school?

 

[innominata]

The LGBT groups are the first to scream discrimination, but if someone doesn't toe the line and respect them, they're quick to label others as bigoted homophobes.

it's easy to sit and write stuff like this when you haven't been discriminated against...

imagine going from rotation to rotation and everytime someone asks you, "so, are you married or are you single?", wondering if you can be truthful with your answer without having it jeopardize your grade/evaluation or learning experience.

imagine having to watch attendings and residents roll their eyes and smirk at having to call a pt's same-sex partner after a surgical procedure is over.

imagine having your landlords jack up your rent to a level you can't afford, only after meeting your partner a couple of days earlier.

people can say that discrimination doesn't exist, but these are all things that have happened to me in the past 8 weeks alone... is there any reason that i shouldn't be (at the very least...) frustrated by this stuff?

 

[innominata]

My comment about my military commitment was in regards to an individual claiming that since I am affiliated with the military, I am homophobic and anti-gay. Considering one of my best friends from college was gay as well as several friends I have now, I would venture to say that I am neither.

i can't help but wonder how these friends of yours would feel if they knew that you think their sexual orientation is filed in the same catagory as "S&M".

 

[Kuba]

Considering one of my best friends from college was gay as well as several friends I have now, I would venture to say that I am neither.

Thats is the exact same lines racists have been using for the last 50 years - "but my best friend is black."

 

[frycek]

How is it possible to take this poll seriously? I think it was wrong of Touro to ban the gay club on simple human rights grounds, but how could I say that the University should support any club "regardless of what the group stands for"? That would imply that they should blithely sit by and fund the KKK. And as to whether Touro has the RIGHT to make such decisions based on religious freedom - ask a lawyer. It has to do with local and state non-discrimination laws. These are non sequiturs in regards to whether it was actually RIGHT or WRONG of Touro to take these actions, as the thread title implied. I would imagine that the results would be significantly different had you actually asked the question you claimed you were going to ask, giving the simple options of a) right or b) wrong.