Was Touro right or wrong?

[siinew]

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i can't help but wonder how these friends of yours would feel if they knew that you think their sexual orientation is filed in the same catagory as "S&M".

Hey! Don't be dissin' S & M yo! Now you're discriminating against me! 🙂

But seriously, I think the whole gay vs. straight thing is such a drag. I think that in 4 or 5 decades (if we make it that far), US society will finally have come to terms with what Kinsey et al. pointed out many years ago: Nobody is 100% gay or 100% straight, but rather all adult humans fall somewhere along the continuum, and are bi-sexual to varying degrees. And so what? Who cares really? But I "digest" (again).

 

[DropkickMurphy]

It is a sexual preference, just like S&M.

Maybe I should claim I'm discriminated against for my fondness for sadism.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

From what I understand, this is not true. Why would anyone make the choice to be discriminated all their lives?

But anyway, I see some of your points, but why not throw away all talk about the organizations rights and blah blah blah. In the end, don't you feel for this group of students that got kicked in the face by their school?

Good question, why do teens all over the world still do the Goth thing and get tattoos and piercings all over their body?


I don't feel like they got kicked in the face. Their club's funding was dropped. Several clubs at DMU had their funding dropped in the past years and all of the members (to my knowledge) are making it through life just fine.

i can't help but wonder how these friends of yours would feel if they knew that you think their sexual orientation is filed in the same catagory as "S&M".

I've had this exact same conversation with them. About half of them agree with me.

I didn't say that I consider S&M and Homosexuality to be the same, merely that they are both sexual orientations.

And as to whether Touro has the RIGHT to make such decisions based on religious freedom - ask a lawyer. It has to do with local and state non-discrimination laws.

To the best of myknowledge from conversations with several friends in law school, discrimination laws apply to admittance into a program, hiring, and housing issues, not to club funding by a private institution.

As I and several others have said several times, if you don't like the options of the poll, make your own.

Siinew,
You've demonstarted an inability to discuss in rational terms within the realm of relevency to this argument.

Regarding state-run media, South African media is state run and way more liberal than any European media outlet I have ever seen. Where else can a commentator say on the evening news "We should invade Washington and kill George Bush"? and have no fear of repercussions?

 

[siinew]

Siinew,
You've demonstarted an inability to discuss in rational terms within the realm of relevency to this argument.

Regarding state-run media, South African media is state run and way more liberal than any European media outlet I have ever seen. Where else can a commentator say on the evening news "We should invade Washington and kill George Bush"? and have no fear of repercussions?

1. There has been no relevancy to this "argument" (at least you're sort of finally admitting that you chose one side before you started this "impartial" poll) since you started the whole charade. But good job on creating a soapbox with this poll that allowed you to parade around your opinions for everyone. Bravo, chap.

2. Hatred of GWB doesn't necessarily make anyone liberal. If it did, then I guess every country in the world is liberal - even the ones who pretend to like us for the bene's. All it means is that they are smart enough to see through the rampant BS this administration spews on a daily basis... and you don't have to be liberal to figure that out. Secondly , providing one example of a state-run media that is supposedly liberal is hardly proof that all state-run media are liberal. State-run media are state-run, and reflect the ideologies of their masters; ideologies which come in all shapes and sizes.

 

[Al2VCOM]

Touro is capable of spending its money anyway it wants.
Did Touro approach the pulled funds for the group in a respectful manner?

Seriously I don't know; somebody tell me.

In any case if you are a medical school in the SF, CA region wanting to drop $$$ support from a Gay Rights/Interest club, you have it coming to you.

 

[bcat85]

I don't understand this thread. They can do whatever they want. It would be like going to a catholic medical school and starting the "Future Abortion Providers of America" club. c'mon

Edit: sorry about the resurrection.. i didn't realize this thread was so old.

 

[bth7]

I don't understand this thread. They can do whatever they want. It would be like going to a catholic medical school and starting the "Future Abortion Providers of America" club. c'mon

Edit: sorry about the resurrection.. i didn't realize this thread was so old.

Well, the difference is that some people would call LGBT people a medically undeserved minority, whereas I don't think anyone would call "Future abortion providers" a medically underserved minority.

People chose to be abortion providers. LGBT people are born that way.

bth

 

[J1515]

I'll never understand these people who whine and complain about everything except the one thing that matters...their education. You people are all in medical school TO LEARN MEDICINE AND BECOME DOCTORS! Who the hell cares about clubs. Who even has time for this nonsense.

 

[lilzelda2]

I'll never understand these people who whine and complain about everything except the one thing that matters...their education. You people are all in medical school TO LEARN MEDICINE AND BECOME DOCTORS! Who the hell cares about clubs. Who even has time for this nonsense.

A LGBT club would allow a chance to learn about issues facing a certain population. LGBT patients are at higher risk for certain diseases and some LGBT doctors do face the risk of not being hired because of their sexuality in some states.

Being a doctor means more than just knowing facts but also having the ability to interact and gain the confidence of your patients, if your just oblivious to a persons lifestyle or situation then what kind of doctor are you going to be. I think an LGBT club or any club that tries to help marginalized people would be a good thing to any school.

And really whats the purpose of SOMA?

 

[Concubine]

LGBT people are born that way.

bth

That's debatable.

 

[bth7]

That's debatable.

Not according to the American Medical Association, the American Academy of pediatrics and the American Psychiatric Association, and every other major medical organization in the US.

• AMA policy regarding sexual orientation
• AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS Sexual Orientation and Adolescents
• American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual Adolescents
• American Academy of Psychiatry, "Reparative" Therapy

What are your sources?

bth

 

[Concubine]

Not according to the American Medical Association, the American Academy of pediatrics and the American Psychiatric Association, and every other major medical organization in the US.

• AMA policy regarding sexual orientation
• AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS Sexual Orientation and Adolescents
• American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual Adolescents
• American Academy of Psychiatry, "Reparative" Therapy

What are your sources?

bth

I'm not looking for a debate, I was simply pointing out that the proper way to put across your point would have been to say that "evidence suggests that LGBT people are" instead of "LGBT people are". No more, no less.

Sorry, for some reason I've been nitpicky lately and it's annoying the hell out of me.

 

[Concubine]

Off topic (but your references reminded me), but does anyone other than myself think that the fields of phycology and phyciatry are pseudoscience?

Edit: This probably isn't the place to discuss this. END.

 

[bth7]

Off topic (but your references reminded me), but does anyone other than myself think that the fields of phycology and phyciatry are pseudoscience?

Edit: This probably isn't the place to discuss this. END.

Do you think that pediatrics is pseudo-science?

bth

 

[JayneCobb]

What are your sources?

bth

I'm curious if you have anything other than consensus statements? I'd much prefer primary literature as to something like this, as it doesn't seem that any of those links substantiate their statements. And it comes across more as a false appeal to authority than proof that it's not a choice. Call me an internist, but this isn't up to the level that I call proof. However, I'll freely admit that I'm not even remotely familiar the literature on the subject, and am open to some primary literature on the topic. And would like to know what further scientific research has shown on the topic since the mid-90's Dateline special I saw as a high schooler.

 

[bth7]

The topic is a complex one. It falls under the topic of "Neuro-Psychiatry," or the field that attempts to understand qualities that are observed in people's behavior (like addiction, intelligence, sexual orientation, risk taking, etc.) with underlying neurological mechanisms.

With any behavior, there is an aspect that is modifiable, and there is an aspect that is not. (Much like one's risk of developing heart disease.)

The evidence at this point seems to suggest the sexual orientation is at least partially explained by some in utero event. To date, the best predictor of homosexuality in men is the number of older brothers you have. It matters not if these brothers grew up with you or if you've even ever met them, it only matters that you shared the same womb.

There are several large scale studies underway (most famously, the gay brothers study) looking for a genetic basis for sexual orientation. This genetic link is suggested by twin studies, but twin studies can't reveal a gene, they only suggest a genetic propensity.

Here's some studies for starters, if you are really interested:

Blanchard, R., Cantor, J. M., Bogaert, A. F., Breedlove, S. M., & Ellis, L. (2006). "Interaction of fraternal birth order and handedness in the development of male homosexuality." Hormones and Behavior, 49, 405–414.

Rahman Q. (2005). The neurodevelopment of human sexual orientation. Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Reviews 29 :1057–1066.

Williams et al. (2000). Finger-lengths ratios and sexual orientation. Nature 404:455-456.

Bailey, J.M., Dunne, M.P., Martin, N.G. (2000). Genetic and environmental influences on sexual orientation and its correlates in an Australian twin sample. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 78(3)

Santtila P, Sandnabba NK, Harlaar N, Varjonen M, Alanko K, von der Pahlen B. Potential for homosexual response is prevalent and genetic. PMID: 17904267

Muscarella F, Elias VA, Szuchman LT. Brain differentiation and preferred partner characteristics in heterosexual and homosexual men and women. Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2004 Aug;25(4):297-301. PMID: 15361821

Bodo C, Rissman EF. The androgen receptor is selectively involved in organization of sexually dimorphic social behaviors in mice. Endocrinology. 2008 May 8. PMID: 18467440

bth

 

[J1515]

A LGBT club would allow a chance to learn about issues facing a certain population. LGBT patients are at higher risk for certain diseases and some LGBT doctors do face the risk of not being hired because of their sexuality in some states.

Being a doctor means more than just knowing facts but also having the ability to interact and gain the confidence of your patients, if your just oblivious to a persons lifestyle or situation then what kind of doctor are you going to be. I think an LGBT club or any club that tries to help marginalized people would be a good thing to any school.

And really whats the purpose of SOMA?

In that case I should have probably joined the Muslim student association, Christian student association, Jewish student association, African American student association, and whatever other club there is out there.

If a school has a club and it interests you, then great. But in the long run it really doesn't matter. It's just another thing for people to whine about. People go to medical school to get an education. Not participate in clubs.

 

[bth7]

In that case I should have probably joined the Muslim student association, Christian student association, Jewish student association, African American student association, and whatever other club there is out there.

If a school has a club and it interests you, then great. But in the long run it really doesn't matter. It's just another thing for people to whine about. People go to medical school to get an education. Not participate in clubs.

We're not whining. We're trying to educate.

 

[J1515]

We're not whining. We're trying to educate.

This whole thread is a whine. Who cares if a school doesn't fund a club. It is their job to give you a medical education and that's it.

 

[bth7]

This whole thread is a whine. Who cares if a school doesn't fund a club. It is their job to give you a medical education and that's it.

The only person whose whining on this thread is you. If you are not interested in the topic, why continue to post?

Certainly there are many threads on SDN that are not of particular interest to me, but I don't feel the need to post onto to them that I don't find the topic relevant.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

In that case I should have probably joined the Muslim student association, Christian student association, Jewish student association, African American student association, and whatever other club there is out there.

If a school has a club and it interests you, then great. But in the long run it really doesn't matter. It's just another thing for people to whine about. People go to medical school to get an education. Not participate in clubs.

Perhaps, but I have no choice about the exorbitant student activity fees that I and every other medical student have to pay. And, guess what 90% of those funds go to? Buying lunches for noontime student club meetings. (That's not an exaggeration - I was a student government treasurer, and knew where the money went.) So, since I'm paying fees that buy lunches for the Baptist Student Association, if I want a Gay Students Alliance so that I can go to a club that I find interesting and actually have some of my fees buy my own lunch - to me, that is not an inconsequential or trivial issue. And I have nothing against the Baptist Student Association - unless they object to a club that I do want to join. Actually, the only reason I never went to the Baptist meeting was because, if I choked on their cheap pizza, there wouldn't be one single person in the room who would know how to give me last rites properly.

This is an old thread that's been revived - but I still find the old argument "a private university can do whatever they want" amusing. If they want students who have federally-guaranteed financial aid, then they fall under the definition of a federal contractor - which they already do if they do one single iota of federally-supported research. This issue of whether private school students have federal protection was settled many years ago - and they do. When somebody opens a medical school that is willing to reject any and all federal aid so that they really can do whatever they want, that will be truly interesting.

Oh, wait. There's this little thing called "accreditation" that they'll have to do without, too. I don't know about AOA standards, but I do know that Tuoro's discrimination against a gay student group would have been a direct violation of LCME standards, without question.

 

[bth7]

Oh, wait. There's this little thing called "accreditation" that they'll have to do without, too. I don't know about AOA standards, but I do know that Tuoro's discrimination against a gay student group would have been a direct violation of LCME standards, without question.

The nondiscrimination policies of U.S. medical schools are governed via the accreditation process of the Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA) and the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME).

LCME accreditation standard MS-31 (approved June 2007)
In the admissions process and throughout medical school, there should be no discrimination on the basis of gender, sexual orientation, age, race, creed, or national origin.

COCA accreditation standard 5.2.2 (approved August 25th, 2007)
Recruiting and selection of students for admission to a College of Osteopathic Medicine must not discriminate on the basis of race, color, gender, religion, national origin, or age.​

Thus, the 60,000 allopathic medical students enjoy the support of their profession in combating discrimination against students who identify as gay or lesbian. The 15,000 osteopathic medical students do not.

And we all thought that MD=DO. Well it does, unless your gay or lesbian.

Guess who wants to change this?

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Thus, the 60,000 allopathic medical students enjoy the support of their profession in combating discrimination against students who identify as gay or lesbian. The 15,000 osteopathic medical students do not.

I truly admire and respect your courage in working to change the osteopathic system. My experience as a gay medical student has been amazing. I was just a couple of days shy of 44 years old when I started medical school. When I finished my undergraduate work in 1983, any sign that I was gay would have kept me out of medical school - at least, here in the South it would have.

Now, I can actually say that being gay was an advantage. My school, OUCOM, is dead serious about having diversity in medical school classes. I'm certainly not "obvious," but when you meet me it would probably cross your mind that I might be gay. That's fine with me - in your 20s, you can gloss over questions about getting married - but when you're 43 and you've never married - well, I'd rather they realized I was just gay and not a complete misfit and social failure. My interviewers, I realize now, were interested in the fact that I was older, that I had a business background in healthcare, and that I was gay. Our medical school classes have consistently had 2 or 3 students who were pretty much openly gay. Oklahoma has a fantastic osteopathic school that I have great respect for and they don't discriminate against gay students to my knowledge, but I have come to truly love and respect OUCOM.

I'm still pretty old-fashioned, though. It wasn't until my second year that I finally decided to bring a date to a school dance. I kept telling my date to hold his head up high when we walked through the door - while I was just trying not to wet myself. But my classmates were absolutely wonderful and accepted us completely. They knew I was gay and thought I was ashamed of it. It was a remarkable night in my life that I'll always remember.

Tolerance is alive and well in the South. Who knew?

 

[J1515]

Are you people serious? Because they don't want to fund a club that makes them discriminatory???? You sound like Al Sharpton.

Hey, I tried to start up a Native Alaskan Medicine club but my school wouldn't fund it. I should sue since Alaskans are being discriminated against. Geez. Worry about getting good grades and doing well on your boards. Where do you people find all this extra time to complain about every little thing. You are going to be doctors!!! Just appreciate the fact that you've been given the opportunity to make life and death decisions for another person. The other option is you might not be in medical school at all. What if you fail two tests and get dismissed from school with all this debt hanging over your head? That would put all this extracurricular nonsense in perspective.

 

[bth7]

I truly admire and respect your courage in working to change the osteopathic system. My experience as a gay medical student has been amazing. I was just a couple of days shy of 44 years old when I started medical school. When I finished my undergraduate work in 1983, any sign that I was gay would have kept me out of medical school - at least, here in the South it would have.

Now, I can actually say that being gay was an advantage. My school, OUCOM, is dead serious about having diversity in medical school classes. I'm certainly not "obvious," but when you meet me it would probably cross your mind that I might be gay. That's fine with me - in your 20s, you can gloss over questions about getting married - but when you're 43 and you've never married - well, I'd rather they realized I was just gay and not a complete misfit and social failure. My interviewers, I realize now, were interested in the fact that I was older, that I had a business background in healthcare, and that I was gay. Our medical school classes have consistently had 2 or 3 students who were pretty much openly gay. Oklahoma has a fantastic osteopathic school that I have great respect for and they don't discriminate against gay students to my knowledge, but I have come to truly love and respect OUCOM.

I'm still pretty old-fashioned, though. It wasn't until my second year that I finally decided to bring a date to a school dance. I kept telling my date to hold his head up high when we walked through the door - while I was just trying not to wet myself. But my classmates were absolutely wonderful and accepted us completely. They knew I was gay and thought I was ashamed of it. It was a remarkable night in my life that I'll always remember.

Tolerance is alive and well in the South. Who knew?

Wow! That's a really amazing story. I hope you'll share it. Next month, The DO magazine will publish responses to this months issue, which is all about diversity. Your perspective & experience would be a great addition.

Here's my take on the articles:

• Brooke Johnson. Life in Transition: Transgender DO provides safe haven for patients. The DO Magazine. American Osteopathic Association. May 2008. p 42-45. <https://www.do-online.org/pdf/pub_do0508transgen.pdf>
• Brooke Johnson. Out but not Loud: Even as acceptance grows gay DOs, students remain wary. The DO magazine. American Osteopathic Association. May 2008. p 36-42. <https://www.do-online.org/pdf/pub_do0508outnotloud.pdf>

Many osteopathic physicians and students contributed to this publication. However, I know that there was a great deal of opposition to this article, even before it was published. Osteopathic medicine has a history of difficulty in tackling LGBT health care issues and acknowledging the presence of LGBT physicians within their ranks.

• Buchanan, Wyatt. "Gay rights group's charter is revoked." San Francisco Chronicle 12 Sept 2006: B5. <http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/09/12/BAGSPL3NVR1.DTL>
• American Medical Student Association. 11 Sept. 2006: "Medical Students at TU to protest Abolition of Gay-Straight Alliance Group" <http://www.amsa.org/news/release2.cfx?id=278>
• Denina, Chris. "Gay Club Loses Touro OK." Vallejo Times-Herald 9 Sept. 2006: A1 <http://www.tugsa.net/bth7/06.09.09-VTH.htm>
• Touro University Gay-Straight Alliance. Wikipeida.org. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touro_University_Gay-Straight_Alliance#Controversy>
• Hopping, Bryan. Time to Accept LGBT physicians in the AOA. <http://www.tugsa.net/hoppingletter.pdf>
  

I believe it is worth taking a critical look at Director Crosby's statement in the article. According to Crosby, "the AOA policy prohibits the association from discriminating against any group or individual based on race, gender, creed, religion, national origin, ancestry, age, marital status, disability or sexual orientation, including gender identity. This policy is reflected in the orientation manual issued to all AOA bureau, committee and council members, as well as in the AOA's employee manual."

However, the relevant AOA documents state otherwise:

1. The AOA Code of Ethics Section 3: <http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=aoa_ethics> ​

A physician-patient relationship must be founded on mutual trust, cooperation, and respect. The patient, therefore, must have complete freedom to choose her/his physician. The physician must have complete freedom to choose patients whom she/he will serve. However, the physician should not refuse to accept patients because of the patient's race, creed, color, sex, national origin or handicap.

2. COCA accreditation standard 5.2.2 <http://www.tugsa.net/COCA.standards.pdf>​

Recruiting and selection of students for admission to a College of Osteopathic Medicine must not discriminate on the basis of race, color, gender, religion, national origin, or age.

Sexual orientation and gender identity are absent from both policies. Why the discrepancy between Mr. Crosby's statement and the actual documents?

President Aljuni's statement is likewise concerning, "I attribute the fact that this has never been raised as an issue of concern to the strength of the AOA's open policy regarding protection from discrimination of any kind." I have a difficult time with this statement as I know "this" has been raised with him, in person, by many individuals.

Many individuals within the osteopathic family are currently working on legislation within the AOA that would change this situation. Now is the moment to share your story and show your support for gay, lesbian and transgender osteopathic physicians and students, and to thank the AOA for demonstrating the courage the discuss their status.

How to submit letters:
Readers can submit letters for publication in The DO by sending email to [email protected]. Alternatively, readers can write to Letters to the Editor, c/o Patrick Sinco, managing editor, American Osteopathic Association, 142 E Ontario St, Chicago, IL 60611-2864.​

Warmest regards & thank you so much for your time,

Bryan Thomas Hopping
Touro University College of Osteopathic Medicine, Vallejo, CA
Member, American Osteopathic Association
Member, Gay and Lesbian Medical Association

 

[bth7]

Are you people serious? Because they don't want to fund a club that makes them discriminatory???? You sound like Al Sharpton.

Hey, I tried to start up a Native Alaskan Medicine club but my school wouldn't fund it. I should sue since Alaskans are being discriminated against. Geez. Worry about getting good grades and doing well on your boards. Where do you people find all this extra time to complain about every little thing. You are going to be doctors!!! Just appreciate the fact that you've been given the opportunity to make life and death decisions for another person. The other option is you might not be in medical school at all. What if you fail two tests and get dismissed from school with all this debt hanging over your head? That would put all this extracurricular nonsense in perspective.

I'm a the top of my class, and I scored a 228 on USMLE Step 1. But thanks for the study tips.

 

[J1515]

I'm a the top of my class, and I scored a 228 on USMLE Step 1. But thanks for the study tips.

You completely missed the point. 🙄 Oh well.

 

[bth7]

You completely missed the point. 🙄 Oh well.

What if you fail two tests and get dismissed from school with all this debt hanging over your head? That would put all this extracurricular nonsense in perspective.

You missed my point, which was: given my academic standing, apparently I won't be able to put all this in the perspective for which you are advocating.

Perhaps if I were to fail two tests, as you suggested, then I might understand your point, as of yet, I haven't and I don't.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

You completely missed the point. 🙄 Oh well.

Having a student organization really isn't our point, either. As a gay medical student, I don't expect everyone to agree with my viewpoints and I don't expect everyone to love me, either. What I do expect is to attend a school that protects my right to be free from harrassment based on sexual orientation. Free from discrimination not because they're nice people - but because those two words, "sexual orientation", are part of a written and enforceable policy.

 

[J1515]

You missed my point, which was: given my academic standing, apparently I won't be able to put all this in the perspective for which you are advocating.

Perhaps if I were to fail two tests, as you suggested, then I might understand your point, as of yet, I haven't and I don't.

Fine. You get a completely irrational resident/attending for your ob/gyn rotation who for whatever reason dislikes you and decides to fail you regardless of how well you do on the shelf. Happy? I suppose you'll say now "but I already did and passed ob/gyn" just to stray from the topic at hand, which is you are in medical school to get a medical education. Clubs are a bonus.

 

[J1515]

Having a student organization really isn't our point, either. As a gay medical student, I don't expect everyone to agree with my viewpoints and I don't expect everyone to love me, either. What I do expect is to attend a school that protects my right to be free from harrassment based on sexual orientation. Free from discrimination not because they're nice people - but because those two words, "sexual orientation", are part of a written and enforceable policy.

You have no proof that the reason they won't fund your organization is because you are gay. To me personally, I don't care if a classmate is gay, straight, black, white, transexual, or an alien from the planet rhubarb. You guys are here to get a medical education and that's the bottom line. The school can choose to fund or not fund whatever they want, as long as they provide you with a medical education. You can't scream "discrimination" everytime you don't get what you want.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

You have no proof that the reason they won't fund your organization is because you are gay. To me personally, I don't care if a classmate is gay, straight, black, white, transexual, or an alien from the planet rhubarb. You guys are here to get a medical education and that's the bottom line. The school can choose to fund or not fund whatever they want, as long as they provide you with a medical education. You can't scream "discrimination" everytime you don't get what you want.

Boy, are we coming full-circle in this argument. Proof? Tuoro explicitly said that they would not permit a gay student organization. You also just ignored my post - this really isn't about student organizations, it's about securing policies that prohibit discrimination. If you don't care if a student is gay, that's very commendable - you're not part of the problem that we have. Unfortunately, not everyone is like you.

I just provided some commentary about my thoughts and my experiences. At my allopathic school, a) discrimination based on sexual orientation is already prohibited by the LCME and school policy, and b) decisions on new student organizations are made by the Student Council without input from administration - and the Student Council can't turn-down an organization unless it doesn't meet the same guidelines imposed on everyone else - your Native Alaskan organization would have to be approved if the minimum required number of students wanted to do it.

You seem to have an almost unhealthy level of respect for "the school's" decisions. As for me, I am the same age as most of the people in administration. I am paying their salaries with very expensive loans that I will have to repay. Once they accepted me as a student, I became the customer. They work for me. Student activity fees are my money, not their money. "Because we said so" doesn't fly with me - that ain't good enough. Learn to question authority, my young colleague. Don't surrender your first amendment rights so cheaply.

 

[J1515]

You seem to have an almost unhealthy level of respect for "the school's" decisions. As for me, I am the same age as most of the people in administration. I am paying their salaries with very expensive loans that I will have to repay. Once they accepted me as a student, I became the customer. They work for me. Student activity fees are my money, not their money. "Because we said so" doesn't fly with me - that ain't good enough. Learn to question authority, my young colleague. Don't surrender your first amendment rights so cheaply.

You are completely missing the point. This isn't a matter of surrendering my first amendment rights or having respect or disrespect for administration. It's a matter of what you applied to medical school for. I went to medical school to become a doctor. Everything else is extra. I attended club meetings here and there because they were fun and I had a personal interest. If all the clubs suddenly disappeared one day it wouldn't matter. The school is giving you a chance to become a doctor and that is all they owe you and that is all you should care about. If you have other concerns then you should have just skipped medical school and went into politics. Going to medical school is a privilage, as is becoming a physician. It's not about administration catering to my personal hobbies or beliefs and doing everything I want. It's about me working towards my goal.

People at my school complained when the Dean changed the attendence policy, modified the curriculum and schedule, as well as changed the retest policy. These are things that directly interfere with the reason why students choose to go to medical school. Who cares if they fund or don't fund some extracurricular activities. You will still be a doctor and that is all that matters.

 

[bcat85]

Wow! That's a really amazing story. I hope you'll share it. Next month, The DO magazine will publish responses to this months issue, which is all about diversity. Your perspective & experience would be a great addition.

Here's my take on the articles:

• Brooke Johnson. Life in Transition: Transgender DO provides safe haven for patients. The DO Magazine. American Osteopathic Association. May 2008. p 42-45. <https://www.do-online.org/pdf/pub_do0508transgen.pdf>
• Brooke Johnson. Out but not Loud: Even as acceptance grows gay DOs, students remain wary. The DO magazine. American Osteopathic Association. May 2008. p 36-42. <https://www.do-online.org/pdf/pub_do0508outnotloud.pdf>

Many osteopathic physicians and students contributed to this publication. However, I know that there was a great deal of opposition to this article, even before it was published. Osteopathic medicine has a history of difficulty in tackling LGBT health care issues and acknowledging the presence of LGBT physicians within their ranks.

• Buchanan, Wyatt. "Gay rights group's charter is revoked." San Francisco Chronicle 12 Sept 2006: B5. <http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/09/12/BAGSPL3NVR1.DTL>
• American Medical Student Association. 11 Sept. 2006: "Medical Students at TU to protest Abolition of Gay-Straight Alliance Group" <http://www.amsa.org/news/release2.cfx?id=278>
• Denina, Chris. "Gay Club Loses Touro OK." Vallejo Times-Herald 9 Sept. 2006: A1 <http://www.tugsa.net/bth7/06.09.09-VTH.htm>
• Touro University Gay-Straight Alliance. Wikipeida.org. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touro_University_Gay-Straight_Alliance#Controversy>
• Hopping, Bryan. Time to Accept LGBT physicians in the AOA. <http://www.tugsa.net/hoppingletter.pdf>
  

I believe it is worth taking a critical look at Director Crosby's statement in the article. According to Crosby, "the AOA policy prohibits the association from discriminating against any group or individual based on race, gender, creed, religion, national origin, ancestry, age, marital status, disability or sexual orientation, including gender identity. This policy is reflected in the orientation manual issued to all AOA bureau, committee and council members, as well as in the AOA's employee manual."

However, the relevant AOA documents state otherwise:

1. The AOA Code of Ethics Section 3: <http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=aoa_ethics> ​

2. COCA accreditation standard 5.2.2 <http://www.tugsa.net/COCA.standards.pdf>​

Sexual orientation and gender identity are absent from both policies. Why the discrepancy between Mr. Crosby's statement and the actual documents?

President Aljuni's statement is likewise concerning, "I attribute the fact that this has never been raised as an issue of concern to the strength of the AOA's open policy regarding protection from discrimination of any kind." I have a difficult time with this statement as I know "this" has been raised with him, in person, by many individuals.

Many individuals within the osteopathic family are currently working on legislation within the AOA that would change this situation. Now is the moment to share your story and show your support for gay, lesbian and transgender osteopathic physicians and students, and to thank the AOA for demonstrating the courage the discuss their status.

How to submit letters:
Readers can submit letters for publication in The DO by sending email to [email protected]. Alternatively, readers can write to Letters to the Editor, c/o Patrick Sinco, managing editor, American Osteopathic Association, 142 E Ontario St, Chicago, IL 60611-2864.​

Warmest regards & thank you so much for your time,

Bryan Thomas Hopping
Touro University College of Osteopathic Medicine, Vallejo, CA
Member, American Osteopathic Association
Member, Gay and Lesbian Medical Association

You have like a gay-defense arsenal.. I've never seen research like this on SDN

 

[Cancer Man]

This has been a good discussion for the most part. I do like Bcat85's comment on a pro-abortion club at a catholic medical school. Excellent comparison.

First, since the Touro schools are private institutions, they can do pretty much whatever they want as long as they are not descriminating.

Second, Touro is associated with a religion. One religiously afiliated school I know of won't even let you grow a beard (granted a bit more trivial) without special permission. This same school will also dismiss students for behavior not consistant with the teachings of the particular religion. So far, nothing has ever happened to that school.

I think that it is important that if an institution is associated with a religion, that it should hold to the principles of that religion. That being said, I can understand the school's point of view and why they made their decisions.

I also need to ask a question because I am grossly ignorant of LGBT issues and the community at large. I've worked with some LGBT people and got along just fine, but that's about it. Why do "safe zones" need to exist?

Someone, please explain it to me in simple terms. Thanks.

 

[Medinsane]

Let's replace 'gay' with 'african american' or 'asian' and the answers would be significantly different. When will people realize that discrimination is discrimination no matter what instituion it's backed by, religoius or not.