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Wash U vs. UMich?
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You said it yourself, doesn't matter where you go to school for Med School. Both institutions are fantastic and you will get a fantastic education at each. I know UMich has a very large premed population, so you'll find a lot of people with similar aspirations (this is not to say you won't find similar minded people at WashU).
I say go where you get a better feel. Definitely visit both and see how you feel about the school. Sometimes all it takes is a stroll around the quad at lunch time to really know.
I say go where you get a better feel. Definitely visit both and see how you feel about the school. Sometimes all it takes is a stroll around the quad at lunch time to really know.
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Wash U all the way
I've had friends who went to those schools. WashU was really competitive (kids stealing each others' things...), especially among the pre-med population. It's a great school, but a pressure cooker and fairly cut-throat. My other friends enjoyed UMich (undergrad and med school)--still competitive, but not cut-throat.
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My vote is for Michigan but I'm biased because I'm graduating from there this semester and I also don't know much about WashU for undergrad. But Michigan is amazing. You will be well prepared for medical school (as long as you put in the work) and campus life is great. I can't type much though because I'm lazy but I'll PM you later.
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Both are great schools. I think you should consider debt and weather. Winters in Michigan are freakin' cold. Washington is a little better.
Personally, I would choose the one that will leave you with less debt.
Personally, I would choose the one that will leave you with less debt.
Medical school admission is (mostly) based off of MCAT and GPA. The prestige of the school is irrelevant if you aren't above the cutoff for MCAT and GPA (e.g. an applicant with GPA=3.0/MCAT=30 from MIT is SOL vs. GPA=4.0/MCAT=30 from No-Name-State-U). So if your goal is to be an MD, go to a school where you are most likely to get a high GPA. One that grade-inflates would be the surest thing. Alternatively, going to a school with sub-par classmates would do the trick as well since most classes will curve based on # standard deviations away from the mean.
For your purposes, the resources both schools offer are pretty much equivalent. How well you prepare for medical school will be a function of how hard you work, not whether you choose UM or Wash. You could go to any med school from either of those.
Also since prestige is important to you for med school, I would really consider the total COA for each school into your decision. Less debt now will give you a little more freedom in choosing med schools.
Also since prestige is important to you for med school, I would really consider the total COA for each school into your decision. Less debt now will give you a little more freedom in choosing med schools.
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I was actually in the UMich Honors program - for me, it was a complete and utter waste of time. Think about what you want to get out of the program - prestige? Access to better resources? The Honors program advertises both of those points heavily, yet, it offers none of those. All you get are pointless changes in courses* for your Freshman and Sophomore years and the opportunity to live in South Quad (which, I guess, isn't too bad since Freshmen risk getting thrown into a North Campus dorm). You won't even graduate with "honors" - that requires that you write a thesis before graduating. You absolutely do not need to be in the Honors program to write a thesis, nor does the Honors program provide you with any extra resources to help you with writing a thesis. All you'll get are a few inconsequential "H" tags on a few of your courses (I guarantee you that none of the med school admissions officers in the US are going to look at that "H" and attribute any importance to it - that is, if they see it at all). Honors Advising is a joke - I got burned with bad info and ended up just going to regular academic advising. I should've confirmed the information myself, but if I was going to dig through pages of UMich course policies on my own, why bother going to an advisor?
I had the very same choice 6 years ago between WUSTL or UMich Honors (add Johns Hopkins and Northwestern as well). At the time, I loved UMich - or actually, I loved Ann Arbor (I'd spent a decent amount of time there during high school). Looking back - well, as an in-stater, not graduating with a mountain of debt was a big positive (WUSTL, JHU, and NW all wanted double of what UMich was asking). However, I've heard stories from friends who went to other prestigious schools and I think I would've liked those much better. At Brown, advisors will hunt you down to make sure that you've gotten all of your graduation requirements completed. At Michigan, I've seen a ton of people realize during senior year that they couldn't graduate. These people weren't dumb - one had already gotten into medical school. Unfortunately, that's just how it is at UMich. One might say that you should be responsible enough to cover your own ass, but, if you're paying to go to a school that bills itself as one of the best, shouldn't it actually measure up to other top-tier schools? Why would you choose it over WUSTL?
Also, Michigan is a huge state school. That's not necessarily a bad thing - more people means more opportunities (there are so many research labs that you can get into one at almost any time**). On the other hand, it also means that there's little individual attention per student. As a cell/molec bio major there, I had classes with ~300 people even in the my senior year. The smallest lecture I had in my major was Endocrinology, 2nd semester senior year, with about 50 people. I know that other departments may do better (I hear that people are pretty happy with the Physics department) but Bio has a ton of people (all pre-meds). On top of this, good luck trying to find a study space at the UGLi or in the Grad stacks during exam time. If you study well at home, it's not a big deal... unless you have a loud roommate. See what I'm saying? I'm sure you're smart enough to make it at UMich, but there are factors beyond just intelligence that you should worry about.
There's no right or wrong answer here - what's right for me may not be right for you, and there are plenty of UMich alumni who like the school. It's also indisputable that UMich has some of the best research opportunities available at any undergraduate institution. However, I'd advise you to research further into why you're choosing one school over the other. I'm sure that WUSTL has some stellar research opportunities as well. Choose the school that fits your personality and needs the best. As a pre-med, your primary job is to do get good grades. Make sure that the school you choose offers you the resources (personal attention, academic help, library space, squishy dorm beds, whatever) you need to get that basic goal covered. Once that's done, you can worry about getting recommendation letters, shadowing opportunities - whatever. Don't be swayed by the fluff.
*Honors Classic Civ is the EXACT SAME CLASS as regular Classic Civ except that you get to write an extra paper. Honors Organic Chem is the exact same course as well, except that you get to do extra homework through a separate discussion section. Honors Calc II was described by one of my friends' advisors as "a course designed to lower the GPA of Honors students." What's the point? Is it going to make you a more well-rounded person than if you had taken only regular courses? If you want to see what Sociology is all about, go ahead and take Soc. No need to wait for the Honors program to make you well-rounded by forcing you to take the same course with an extra paper.
** If you're really interested in research at UMich, look into UROP. The program will show you exactly what you need to do to get your foot into a research lab. Whether or not it's a quality lab that actually cares about whether you learn something is, of course, something you need to take care of on your own.
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Go where you liked more. Honestly it's not going to matter much. There may be small perks at one program that the other doesn't have, but really, when it comes down to getting you into medical school, you can't go wrong with either.
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You might have better chance at making good connections at JHU if you want to stay in the northeast for medical school, but the role those sorts of things play is probably minimal.
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As other people have been saying - it doesn't matter. In any case, none of the schools you've mentioned are Ivies anyway. There are people from Harvard who can't get into any medical school in the United States. There are people who went to tiny no-name liberal arts schools at top medical schools. Is it easier to get into a medical school if you're at Harvard? Maybe... but you probably got into Harvard because you were cream of the crop, so, of course you'd have a better chance of getting in. The school name might help slightly, but if you're coming out of Harvard with a 23 MCAT and you're applying to only top 10 medical schools... prepare to take a year off.
The difference between UMich, WUSTL, and JHU in regards to med school admissions.. well, there isn't one. Pretend that you're on an admissions committee. You have two applicants with the exact same scores and extracurriculars. One went to JHU, one went to WUSTL. Would you feel confident picking one over the other based on school alone? Is a JHU student really that much more qualified than a WUSTL student (and vice versa)?
Go to the school where you think you'd be the happiest. Define "happiness" however you like, whether it's in terms of geographical location, tuition costs, or mascot.
I was discussing this thread with a friend the other day and they brought up this important point - realize that higher education is a business. They may place the utmost importance on academics, but that doesn't mean they have to care about YOUR academic performance. Work hard. It's the only way to maximize your chances of getting in.
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If you want to go to medical school you should avoid both of these places. A prestigious undergraduate college will do you absolutely no good in the medical school admissions process. You would be much better off going to a college where you dominate the competition and get a 4.0 than going to Michigan and getting a 3.4.
Some of these medical schools are getting 10,000 applications per year and they do not have the time or the inclination to normalize transcripts to account for the rigor of the undergraduate college or major. In fact the US News and World Report rankings are based in part on the undergraduate GPA of the medical schools entering classes and taking a kid from JHU with a 3.5 will not help their ratings as much as a kid from Washington State or Eastern Michigan with a 4.0.
When you get to college flunk all of the placement exams. Do not take calculus based physics. Avoid honors classes. That's how you get into med school.
Some of these medical schools are getting 10,000 applications per year and they do not have the time or the inclination to normalize transcripts to account for the rigor of the undergraduate college or major. In fact the US News and World Report rankings are based in part on the undergraduate GPA of the medical schools entering classes and taking a kid from JHU with a 3.5 will not help their ratings as much as a kid from Washington State or Eastern Michigan with a 4.0.
When you get to college flunk all of the placement exams. Do not take calculus based physics. Avoid honors classes. That's how you get into med school.
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If you want to go to medical school you should avoid both of these places. A prestigious undergraduate college will do you absolutely no good in the medical school admissions process. You would be much better off going to a college where you dominate the competition and get a 4.0 than going to Michigan and getting a 3.4.
Some of these medical schools are getting 10,000 applications per year and they do not have the time or the inclination to normalize transcripts to account for the rigor of the undergraduate college or major. In fact the US News and World Report rankings are based in part on the undergraduate GPA of the medical schools entering classes and taking a kid from JHU with a 3.5 will not help their ratings as much as a kid from Washington State or Eastern Michigan with a 4.0.
When you get to college flunk all of the placement exams. Do not take calculus based physics. Avoid honors classes. That's how you get into med school.
This is absolutely horrible advice.
+1. Obnoxious dad is... obnoxious.
Adcoms do take undergraduate rigor into account. In a thread in pre-allo, LizzyM mentioned that they have a list of ~400 institutions along with some kind of list of grades and MCAT scores that lets them see how difficult, on average, an institution is.
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Sort of.. there's some truth to Obnoxious' post, but I'm not sure I'd be confident enough to follow it. In any case, a strong MCAT score help in equalizing the differences between institutions as well.
One example - Harvard (yes, the Harvard) is known for grade inflation. Their classes are curved to a B+, compared to a B- for UMich.
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I have been around academic medicine for the past 34 years. I've also reviewed the literature concerning medical school admissions and undergraduate rigor. My kid is in medical school. My kid went to an extremely rigorous undergrad and majored in chemistry. She almost didn't get in because her GPA was lower than people who had majored in psych at second tier colleges.
I also lived in Ann Arbor for a number of years and I can tell you that that campus is littered with failed premeds who would have been better off going to Western Michigan.
OP, save yourself the $160,000 you'd spend in Ann Arbor or St. Louis. Go to a college where you'll beat the stuffing out of the competition. You might even have some fun.
Not saying going to a tough school is an excuse to do poorly.
There are thousands of failed premeds everywhere... ~ 22,000 every year. I don't know what the distribution is between "tough" and "not tough" schools.
Going to an expensive undergrad definitely isn't a free ticket to med school. You have to be confident you can do well.
I'm a fan of the cheap undergrad approach myself. But there are plenty of folks that go on to great med schools from these two places as well. No reason why OP can't be one of them if he works hard.
There are thousands of failed premeds everywhere... ~ 22,000 every year. I don't know what the distribution is between "tough" and "not tough" schools.
Going to an expensive undergrad definitely isn't a free ticket to med school. You have to be confident you can do well.
I'm a fan of the cheap undergrad approach myself. But there are plenty of folks that go on to great med schools from these two places as well. No reason why OP can't be one of them if he works hard.
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OP, save yourself the $160,000 you'd spend in Ann Arbor or St. Louis. Go to a college where you'll beat the stuffing out of the competition. You might even have some fun.
I've got to agree with Obnoxious Dad here. I went from an unranked undergrad to a top 5 med school. Everybody I knew who went to Ivys for undergrad from my HS who were premed did not make it to med school and they were probably smarter than I am. Maybe it was the chip on my shoulder that motivated me but sometimes I like to think that in the end, I made the better decision.
Be aware that you may be the hot **** where you are now but every level you go up, it takes orders of magnitude more work to be the hot **** and a huge amount of the competition is culled (yes I used a slaughterhouse term because slaughter is exactly how I'd describe the premed process at most schools). Getting into ANY med school has about the same competition as getting into an ivy for undergrad. Thats the beauty of the combined program because, for the most part, you get to skip the filter that eliminates the most people.
In terms of practical advice, WashU will probably be a better choice if they are similar cost because private schools in general take care of their students better. There is not too much academically different about their undergrad programs I think. Location also plays a huge factor.
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I'm at WashU! So far, I like it a lot! 1st year is very relaxed here but 2nd year is stressful as hell (but I think that applies to med schools everywhere). I'm currently procrastinating from studying for step 1 by posting here.
I don't know that much about the undergrad since the med school is on a separate campus. I have been there a few times for grad school events and socials and I have to say that its beautiful! I haven't really had a chance to interact with the undergrads. I know some people who went there for undergrad and they generally have good things to say about it.
But my recommendation for WashU is not just because I go there. I really do think it is the better choice over Michigan just because of the public school/private school dichotomy. If the price is the same, I'd go where I'm treated best. Looking at WashU's undergrad, you'll be treated like royalty. I don't know anything about Michigan but theres less support at many big public schools and I've heard horror stories of UC Berkeley in particular where the school and your advisers won't even flinch at failing you out in your first semester and ruining forever your chances of med school
Also OP, I know you may not be thinking this far ahead yet, but if you really want to go to a "top" medical school, I would strongly consider the debt load you will be faced with after undergrad. Unless you're getting a significant amount of scholarships/grants, I wouldn't write off going to a cheaper place. Top med schools will set you back >$40k/yr. + cost of living... >$200k in all, and it's much more difficult to get scholarships for med schools. Add that to your undergrad debt... let's just say, I've never seen an attending or resident on here say that >$300k for a medical education is worth it. You could be paying that off for a long, long time. If you minimize your debt now, you will be less inhibited in choosing an expensive medical school.
Not to mention, no one knows where reimbursement will go in the future. Or what you will be interested in. What happens if you get to HMS and find out you want to do primary care? With $300k in loans?
I know it's tough to think that far into the future. But should you assume this debt, it will stick with you for decades until you pay it off. So do realize what you're getting into and how it will affect you in the future.
Not to mention, no one knows where reimbursement will go in the future. Or what you will be interested in. What happens if you get to HMS and find out you want to do primary care? With $300k in loans?
I know it's tough to think that far into the future. But should you assume this debt, it will stick with you for decades until you pay it off. So do realize what you're getting into and how it will affect you in the future.
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If you absolutely have to go to one of these places to impress your family & friends, pick Michigan. I just looked at the WUSTL catalog and that joint does not offer algebra based physics. Calculus based physics is a GPA buster and a complete waste of time. Every university in the Big 10 offers algebra based physics and so do Princeton and Cornell. Algebra based physics is all you need for the MCAT. Why put yourself through the agony of multivariable calculus just to take physics? It makes absolutely no sense.
When a college administration does not want to offer algebra based physics, it tells you that it does not care about your ultimate success as a premed. You want facilitators and not inhibitors as teachers and administrators.
If you want to be a fool, at least be smart about it.
When a college administration does not want to offer algebra based physics, it tells you that it does not care about your ultimate success as a premed. You want facilitators and not inhibitors as teachers and administrators.
If you want to be a fool, at least be smart about it.
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If you absolutely have to go to one of these places to impress your family & friends, pick Michigan. I just looked at the WUSTL catalog and that joint does not offer algebra based physics. Calculus based physics is a GPA buster and a complete waste of time. Every university in the Big 10 offers algebra based physics and so do Princeton and Cornell. Algebra based physics is all you need for the MCAT. Why put yourself through the agony of multivariable calculus just to take physics? It makes absolutely no sense.
When a college administration does not want to offer algebra based physics, it tells you that it does not care about your ultimate success as a premed. You want facilitators and not inhibitors as teachers and administrators.
If you want to be a fool, at least be smart about it.
I guess I could maybe agree with this if your entire goal in life is to get into med school. Unfortunately, once you matriculate, life continues, and you will find that you will be MUCH better prepared for it having gone to Wash U over pudunk-U.
It's silly to avoid a school because it only offers calculus-based physics. I guess the implication is that everyone is too stupid to get it, so why not go with something easier? Is it possible that you could enjoy your tenure in college AND learn? Is there not something satisfying about truly understanding physics, rather than memorizing alebraic equations?
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If you absolutely have to go to one of these places to impress your family & friends, pick Michigan. I just looked at the WUSTL catalog and that joint does not offer algebra based physics. Calculus based physics is a GPA buster and a complete waste of time. Every university in the Big 10 offers algebra based physics and so do Princeton and Cornell. Algebra based physics is all you need for the MCAT. Why put yourself through the agony of multivariable calculus just to take physics? It makes absolutely no sense.
When a college administration does not want to offer algebra based physics, it tells you that it does not care about your ultimate success as a premed. You want facilitators and not inhibitors as teachers and administrators.
If you want to be a fool, at least be smart about it.
...are you serious? This is a joke. I'm curious to know what your experience "being around academic medicine" consists of, because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Everyone would do well to ignore this guy's advice.
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If you look at the data in the MSAR you will see that less than 15% of the MS1s over the last decade were physical science majors. Approximately 33% of the MS1s did not major in a science as an undergraduate.
My kid went to a college that ranks in the top 25 in terms of % of alumni who earn doctorates in the sciences according to the NSF's Survey of earned doctorates. She aced PChem. She scored at the 95th percentile on the American Chemical Society's National Organic chemistry exam. Her writing ability score on the MCAT surpassed the average at Harvard. The last half of one of her interviews was conducted in French. She also has a stack of rejection letters that's an inch thick because she only had a 3.5.
I had been told before she went to college that rigor counts in the admissions process. It doesn't.
What is your point with this? People major in whatever they're interested in. I didn't major in physics because I didn't particularly enjoy it. I imagine attitudes like mine are reflected in the statistics.
Great. sounds like she was an OK student.
Yea - what about the other sections? the writing section is worthless compared to the other sections. I did well on it and the only studying I did for it was the week before I took the test.
This can be fairly common if one claims to be fluent in another language. Again - ordinary.
Look .... you didn't tell us much about her application. No MCAT score. No extracurriculars. Nothing about the quality of her LOR's, research, etc. To forgo providing any of this information and then assert that her rejections were due to her GPA is absurd. If anything it was probably GPA + a lot of other things, like her MCAT score, which you didn't mention. I'm assuming you only provided the bit about the writing score because the rest of the sections were below average for Harvard...
You provided no information in your post to assert that. Frankly, I see lots of undergrads and med students here with a better understanding of the admissions process than you. Like Cole, I'm beginning to doubt your real "exposure" to academic medicine and I suggest other readers ignore the "advice" you're providing in this thread.
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Please stop posting. You clearly know nothing about the admissions process, and the data you cite has absolutely nothing to do with anything related to pre-med preparation. Also, your daughter may not be as outstanding as you say - there could be a huge flaw in her application apart from her GPA. You're using one person's experience to generalize the whole process. That's just stupid.
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Don't like my posts? That's tough.
My kid's MCAT exceeded 30. She had letters of recommendation from an internal medicine residency program director and the chief of endocrine surgery at a tier one med school. She performed research for two summers for that surgeon. Neither one of the med schools employing those guys would giver her an interview.
She had a variety of ECs ranging from sitting on her college's honor committee to running three marathons to volunteering at a hospital to singing at various functions.
You think it's normal for an American to interview in French? Get real.
Look at all of the threads on SDN related to undergraduate rigor on this board. The overwhelming opinion is that undergraduate status is a non-factor.
Furthermore I am the only person in this discussion who actually has cited data. You have simply spouted off your prejudices.
If you want to see the studies about rigor, look at the work of Clarence Kreiter of the University of Iowa Med School. Kreiter argues that undergraduate rigor ought to matter but most of the literature contradicts him.
I agree with Kreiter. Undergraduate rigor should matter. However, it doesn't.
My kid's MCAT exceeded 30. She had letters of recommendation from an internal medicine residency program director and the chief of endocrine surgery at a tier one med school. She performed research for two summers for that surgeon. Neither one of the med schools employing those guys would giver her an interview.
She had a variety of ECs ranging from sitting on her college's honor committee to running three marathons to volunteering at a hospital to singing at various functions.
You think it's normal for an American to interview in French? Get real.
Look at all of the threads on SDN related to undergraduate rigor on this board. The overwhelming opinion is that undergraduate status is a non-factor.
Furthermore I am the only person in this discussion who actually has cited data. You have simply spouted off your prejudices.
If you want to see the studies about rigor, look at the work of Clarence Kreiter of the University of Iowa Med School. Kreiter argues that undergraduate rigor ought to matter but most of the literature contradicts him.
I agree with Kreiter. Undergraduate rigor should matter. However, it doesn't.
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I'm also curious what you mean by this. Are you a physician on the admissions committee, or do you just live near a medical school?
And you say your kid scored over a 30. Does that mean a 31 or a 39? Big difference. I think your average med school matriculant has a 33 these days.
People also forgot to mention that the medical school applications process is oftentimes a total crapshoot.
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I'm also curious what you mean by this. Are you a physician on the admissions committee, or do you just live near a medical school?
And you say your kid scored over a 30. Does that mean a 31 or a 39? Big difference. I think your average med school matriculant has a 33 these days.
People also forgot to mention that the medical school applications process is oftentimes a total crapshoot.
My daughter was admitted to medical school in the fall of 2009. If you look at Table 17 on the AAMC website, you will see that the average total MCAT that year for matriculants was 30.8. My kid's MCAT was higher than that. The fall of 2010 was the first year that the average MCAT exceeded 31.
Where does 33 come from? Your sphincter?
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Calm down, dad. I'm mostly just curious. And I said these days, not 2009. That was just some reference for anyone who cares. Check out the new MSAR from this year, it's either a 32 or 33.
By the way, over 30 means nothing - you and I both know what you meant...Why didn't you just say over 33, or over 36?
Anyway, you're viewpoints do have SOME truth, but you have to sift through the cynicism and the extreme generalizations.
And you never answered my original question. What do you know about the admissions process besides what your kid, and possibly a handful of her friends, went through?
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That going to a very difficult undergraduate school is not ideal grade-wise for a premed is hardly a new, novel or uncommon idea. Even MIT's school paper has covered this issue in recent weeks.
http://tech.mit.edu/V131/N20/su.html
However, as an alumnus of MIT and academic attending physician for a few decades, I think that this is a complex issue that needs to be individualized. SOME young folks will go to an academically less rigorous institution and thrive and get A's and go on to med school. Others may not be challenged and may give up on the idea, especially if they are not in the presence of a solid science environment, regardless of their major.
Similarly, at more academically challenging environments, some will do poorly, and others will thrive. They may thrive at the expense of some GPA. Whether an individual med school OR adcom member takes this into account is variable. But very few in my opinion (and only my opinion) will regret their decision to go to an academically challenging school.
As a parent discussing these options with my children, I think that I would like them to choose the MOST academically challenging environment they can handle (my spouse agrees by the way....). I would rather them end up at a "lower ranked" med school due to this GPA effect, although honestly, I'm doubtful of that as an outcome for most students in this situation.
Although MIT wasn't easy for me and my grades were undoubtedly lower than they would have been elsewhere AND I didn't get into some top schools, I have always been and continue to be glad I went there. I use many of the skills I learned there, the connections I made there, and became a better scientist and physician for having been there. Sure, I could have done these elsewhere, but it was great having the chance to be at MIT.
To the OP. Go to Wash U as you know is right for you. Good luck!
http://tech.mit.edu/V131/N20/su.html
However, as an alumnus of MIT and academic attending physician for a few decades, I think that this is a complex issue that needs to be individualized. SOME young folks will go to an academically less rigorous institution and thrive and get A's and go on to med school. Others may not be challenged and may give up on the idea, especially if they are not in the presence of a solid science environment, regardless of their major.
Similarly, at more academically challenging environments, some will do poorly, and others will thrive. They may thrive at the expense of some GPA. Whether an individual med school OR adcom member takes this into account is variable. But very few in my opinion (and only my opinion) will regret their decision to go to an academically challenging school.
As a parent discussing these options with my children, I think that I would like them to choose the MOST academically challenging environment they can handle (my spouse agrees by the way....). I would rather them end up at a "lower ranked" med school due to this GPA effect, although honestly, I'm doubtful of that as an outcome for most students in this situation.
Although MIT wasn't easy for me and my grades were undoubtedly lower than they would have been elsewhere AND I didn't get into some top schools, I have always been and continue to be glad I went there. I use many of the skills I learned there, the connections I made there, and became a better scientist and physician for having been there. Sure, I could have done these elsewhere, but it was great having the chance to be at MIT.
To the OP. Go to Wash U as you know is right for you. Good luck!
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David,
The average MCAT for the most recent class was slightly over 31. It's not 33. That's what you'll find on Table 17 if you would actually look.
I am a little leary about telling you explicitly about my long term vantage point on this process. I've already revealed too much as it is. I am close to this process, however.
Tildy,
My wife and I were gung ho about our little darling going to an elite, rigorous college. She probably will be a better physician for having done it. However, she came close to not getting into med school at all. She almost learned a tough lesson the hardest way possible. First and foremost she wanted to be a physician. She did not want to be the most scientifically gifted barmaid at Applebees.
OP,
If you are still reading this thread, I'm writing straight from the heart. If you want to go to med school more than anything, take the path of least resistance.
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I have referred you to Clarence Kreiter's works on the issue of handicapping transcripts for undergraduate rigor. I have cited the data from the MSAR detailing the undergraduate majors of MS1s. I have cited the most recent AAMC data concerning average MCAT.
What have you cited?
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Not to beat a dead horse but...
You are whining that your daughter, who went to a "top 25 in terms of % of alumni who earn doctorates in the sciences" or whatever that means, and MATRICULATED into med school, did not get acceptances to every school she applied to? Sounds like you got a good deal since she may not have matriculated if she went to a crappy school.
I will try to break this down..
It seems pretty obvious that:
1. Her MCAT score was low and brought down her standing. She probably had a 31, which is borderline.
2. She probably applied to a lot of very competitive programs, and some safeties, and maybe got into a safety, thus making you feel like you threw your money away on college.
The application process is complex, and based on a lot of variables. One of these is luck, no way around it.
From my experience, going to a top school helps tremendously. Kids from top undergraduate programs tend to matriculate at top med schools, and tend to end up in the top residencies. Yeah, you can get in without a top undergrad program, but you will need to be stellar in all other aspects of your application to compete. And trust me, an MCAT score of 31 gives you very little leverage.
There are tens of thousands of applicants, and all who matriculate will be similar. with all else being equal OF COURSE it helps to go to the better program. You may suffer by a lower GPA, but probably not since most fancy-pants schools have grade inflation, assuring all alumni will be successful. Furthermore, it is a FACT that many of the top med schools weigh your GPA by the ranking of your school, assuring that mostly IVY league snobs fill their ranks. 'thems the breaks.
So to OP, the best school is Wash U. Now Michigan is a great public school (one of the best), but it's not Wash U. My only consideration would be cost. Are you going to owe $150K in loans? That would suck, and would force me to reconsider. But if your daddy's rich- go to Wash U.
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I was responding to the OP about the course she should take. I'm not whining. My kid got in. By the way, a score of 31 was above average. How can an above average score be border line?
There are seven medical schools in the Ivy League. Throw in the other ionospheric places like Chicago, Northwestern, Pitt, UCLA, Duke, Baylor and a few others and you get 25 schools that MIGHT handicap transcripts for undergraduate rigor. However, the literature will tell you that most schools do not normalize transcripts. A 3.75 from Kansas State will get you farther in the admissions process at Rosalind Franklin than a 3.1 from the University of Chicago. If you look at the MSAR and the data on the AAMC website you will there just isn't much room statistically for an applicant from Harvey Mudd or Cal Tech with a 3.1. Sorry.
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This exact question illustrates your ignorance.
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I wouldn't say that rigor doesn't count at all in the process but the mcat is probably what did her in. You can have the most rigorous education on earth but if you can't show that you do well on a standardized exam, med schools have no way to know that the knowledge stuck and that is the sad truth.
But your daughter should get used to having standardized tests determine competitiveness. Basically nothing else you do in med school matters for residency selection except your step 1 score. I've heard of program directors just putting everybody in an excel sheet and sorting by highest score and then call it a day in terms of selecting who to interview.
She sounds like a very smart girl and I'm not being sarcastic. The thing is, at this level, everybody seems smart or talented by some metric or another. I had four journal papers published in undergrad including one first author paper that is still on the top 10 most read list for a research journal more than 2 years after it was published. A friend of mine who applied to med school at the same time was a pro golfer. Does that make me or him a better applicant than your daughter? Who knows.
Med school admissions is very much a crapshoot and you just don't know what is going on under the covers. I applied to 30 med schools and was accepted to 4 of them. I was told by the chair of a major department at a top 5 med school after my interview with him that he would do everything he could to get me accepted at his school. I was rejected a month later. I was told by the MD/PhD director at a top 10 school that I was one of their top choices and I shouldn't worry about getting in. I didn't get in. They may have been sincere but there was something else preventing me from getting in or they may have been lying through their teeth. Who knows.
This crap happens all the time. The only thing you can do is apply extremely broadly, prepare to be punched in the face, and accept what you get.
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I will repeat this one more time. Her MCAT was above the average for people who matriculated in 2009. Furthermore, she got in.
Her problem was that she had a 3.5 GPA in Chemistry from a very tough college. She applied to all of the schools like Drexel, Temple, Rush MCW, Rosalind etc. that take people with average MCATS at 30 or 31. She got one acceptance.
These places simply did not care that she was a physical science major from a college that produces scads of people who eventually earn doctorates in the sciences. They didn't care that she was fluent in French. They didn't care that she had worked as a researcher at a tier one medical school for a summer in the endocrine surgery lab. All they cared about was grades.
My point is that the OP should be concerned about her GPA if she wants to go to medical school. A 4.0 from UW Stevens Point or Eastern Washington will get her farther than a 3.1 from Cal Tech. These medical schools care about their rankings. They know that a B+ student from MIT is brighter than a 4.0 from Missouri State but they don't care. The US News rankings will reward them for taking students who took the easier path.
Her problem was that she had a 3.5 GPA in Chemistry from a very tough college. She applied to all of the schools like Drexel, Temple, Rush MCW, Rosalind etc. that take people with average MCATS at 30 or 31. She got one acceptance.
These places simply did not care that she was a physical science major from a college that produces scads of people who eventually earn doctorates in the sciences. They didn't care that she was fluent in French. They didn't care that she had worked as a researcher at a tier one medical school for a summer in the endocrine surgery lab. All they cared about was grades.
My point is that the OP should be concerned about her GPA if she wants to go to medical school. A 4.0 from UW Stevens Point or Eastern Washington will get her farther than a 3.1 from Cal Tech. These medical schools care about their rankings. They know that a B+ student from MIT is brighter than a 4.0 from Missouri State but they don't care. The US News rankings will reward them for taking students who took the easier path.
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Your horrible point has been illustrated. Move along.
