WashU vs. Brown premed? Please HELP, I'm incredibly stuck.

[EdgeTrimmer]

Yikes. I came from a relatively easy public school and the classes weren't too bad and was able to get all As. For SAT scores and such, I didn't ace them, but scored relatively well. My impression was that although WashU classes are not easy, there are enough resources, and if you use all the support, you can get a 3.8-4.0 GPA and still have the time for other extracurriculars(am I wrong about this?), which I plan to have mainly research and medicine related extracurriculars like shadowing and volunteering but also spend a lot of my time implementing civic change in the St. Louis area, mainly through art and education, or perhaps a project internationally. I feel like this is some sort of plan I'm comfortable with as opposed to not really having as much of a plan switching to Brown.

My main reason for leaning toward WashU is that although it is tough, I've seen a lot of real cases(LinkedIn, online forums) of people at WashU working hard and going to a top 20 medical school, whereas I haven't really seen the same concrete proof from Brown as much or as often. Although I may be wrong, but my impression is that although it's easier to work through a premed education at Brown, fewer end up at top 20 med schools.

I definitely don't want to burn out in college, but I also am really striving for a top 20 medical school. If Brown and WashU has similar stats at sending students to top 20 medical schools, I think Brown would be the much better experience(I'm definitely not certain that I can get a 3.8-4.0 at WashU, but I am definitely a hard worker and have done well so far, so I may be wrong). But the issue is that I'm not seeing as many stories of people from Brown doing well and going to a top 20 medical school as opposed to WashU.

Am I wrong with this thinking and choosing WashU in this situation?

I don't think 3.8-4.0 will be an easy at most schools, let alone WashU. If you work hard and plan courses and ECs properly from day one you should be fine.

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[efle]

Yikes. I came from a relatively easy public school and the classes weren't too bad and was able to get all As. For SAT scores and such, I didn't ace them, but scored relatively well. My impression was that although WashU classes are not easy, there are enough resources, and if you use all the support, you can get a 3.8-4.0 GPA and still have the time for other extracurriculars(am I wrong about this?), which I plan to have mainly research and medicine related extracurriculars like shadowing and volunteering but also spend a lot of my time implementing civic change in the St. Louis area, mainly through art and education, or perhaps a project internationally. I feel like this is some sort of plan I'm comfortable with as opposed to not really having as much of a plan switching to Brown.

My main reason for leaning toward WashU is that although it is tough, I've seen a lot of real cases(LinkedIn, online forums) of people at WashU working hard and going to a top 20 medical school, whereas I haven't really seen the same concrete proof from Brown as much or as often. Although I may be wrong, but my impression is that although it's easier to work through a premed education at Brown, fewer end up at top 20 med schools.

I definitely don't want to burn out in college, but I also am really striving for a top 20 medical school. If Brown and WashU has similar stats at sending students to top 20 medical schools, I think Brown would be the much better experience(I'm definitely not certain that I can get a 3.8-4.0 at WashU, but I am definitely a hard worker and have done well so far, so I may be wrong). But the issue is that I'm not seeing as many stories of people from Brown doing well and going to a top 20 medical school as opposed to WashU.

Am I wrong with this thinking and choosing WashU in this situation?

Well this is absolutely terrifying. This makes me wonder if achieving this GPA and trying to carry out other time consuming extracurriculars for a top 20 med school isn't doable.

It can absolutely be done. ~25% of WashU applicants land in t20 MD programs (see that link above), particularly by staying at WashU or going to the other midwestern ones.

But what you are realizing is correct - you will probably have to bust ass, and even then, might find out that trying 100% only gets you a 3.7 or something. If you want a chiller college experience, look to Brown. If you're ready to work hard, then you'll fit right in at WashU

 

[Sea Otter]

If you had the choice in this situation(Brown or WashU, assuming you were already in the Medicine and Society program at WashU), which one would you pick if you wanted to go to a top 20 med school? I ask this because of your current experience at WashU and also coming from a public school like me.

That’s tough to answer because other than the facts that it’s in Rhode Island and that it’s an Ivy League school, I know next to nothing about Brown. I’m sure it’s a fantastic school and you could do great there.

I can only speak to my experience at Wash U. You have to work very hard to maintain a 3.9-4.0 there. I took a bit to get acclimated and that led to a couple B’s freshman year. But I figured it out and never got another B after that. I had friends that did better than me and friends that did worse. But I found all my classmates and my professors to be supportive. My advisor was helpful, though it sounds like an above poster didn’t have as positive an experience.

I didn’t end up at a T-20 so idk if I’m the person you want advice from. But I was fortunate enough to have 6 MD acceptances to choose from and I’m now in residency in my top choice specialty. So it turned out pretty good for me.

 

[RJ McReady]

Wash U undergraduate premed classes are probably the same as anywhere else in the country at top level schools. They are without a doubt weed out courses and most of the people who think that they are going to be premed will drop after one or two years.
But, I do think that WashU has huge grade deflation. Meaning, it is very difficult to get an A in the science classes: biology, chemistry, biochemistry, physics, for many reasons, including randomness of professors that are assigned. They have various professors who don’t care about teaching or especially about teaching undergraduates and do not care about whether or not you want to go to med school. We had a an organic chemistry teacher whose lectures we could barely understand. Yet, this class is a bellwether for medical school.
It was up to us to understand the material and study on our own. The university did very little to help us.

 

[RJ McReady]

For people that are reading my posts, I may seem bitter bc I didn’t get an interview, but I’m just giving you the honest assessment of my experience at wash U. I do not regret going there, but I can tell you that there is severe competition and grade deflation. You don’t have the Ivy League name, which does count, I think, at a lot of medical schools. Most importantly, they are not supportive of their own alumni. If I had to do it over again, I would’ve gone to a public school in California, where I would’ve paid a lot less tuition, and I would’ve ended up at the same place for medical school that I am at now.

 

[RJ McReady]

Also, if anyone is interested, their response to the Covid pandemic was pathetic. We were told at spring break, basically without any notice, that we could not go back to campus. They said that they were going to pack all of our things at their cost, but here it is at the middle of August and I have not received any of my things from my dorm. I was not allowed to go back into my apartment and I had to make separate arrangements for some of my essential things to be transported to my medical school. This school is not supportive, bottom line. Yeah, we received no reduction in tuition for the spring semester, despite crappy online “education.“

 

[HopeP]

Also, if anyone is interested, their response to the Covid pandemic was pathetic. We were told at spring break, basically without any notice, that we could not go back to campus. They said that they were going to pack all of our things at their cost, but here it is at the middle of August and I have not received any of my things from my dorm. I was not allowed to go back into my apartment and I had to make separate arrangements for some of my essential things to be transported to my medical school. This school is not supportive, bottom line. Yeah, we received no reduction in tuition for the spring semester, despite crappy online “education.“

Can't disagree that one will find true character in adversity.

 

[dsonic]

Has your decision been finalized? If not, I’d love to share some thoughts!

 

[KnightDoc]

I think I saw your tiktok! Anyway, washu undergrad here applying this cycle:

I think you'll do really well! I didn't have any science background coming into college, but I managed to graduate with a high GPA and high MCAT. What helped me out the most was that there were a lot of (FREE!) tutoring resources for students like me who weren't the strongest science students. I basically took advantage of all of them (chem lab mentoring, pltl, rpm, btl, pcs study groups) and I definitely recommend them if you want to do well.


I don't think we're grade deflated really... I think most people are used to their high school grading system and think that an average around B/B+ is outrageous, but it seems to be in-line with most other schools. But hard agree on that one organic chemistry teacher lol, but luckily I don't think he is allowed to teach anymore. Other than organic chemistry, the other core classes don't rotate their professors as much so the quality of teaching is a lot better.

Remains to be seen if my opinions change (depends on if they interview ig )

I guess "deflated" is in the eyes of the beholder. You are correct that a B/B+ mean is not crazy in the scheme of things, but in a world where the mean/median is 3.7-3.9+, a 3.0/3.3 doesn't work, especially when so many peer schools inflate.

Everything is relative, and while some schools give WashU applicants a break due to their excellent MCAT scores and the known rigor of the grading system, others just don't care. Let's put it like this -- as @RJ McReady said, you guys are definitely hardworking and smart, but coming from WashU, with its B/B+ grading average, does not give you an advantage when applying to med schools.

 

[LunaOri]

Yikes. I came from a relatively easy public school and the classes weren't too bad and was able to get all As. For SAT scores and such, I didn't ace them, but scored relatively well. My impression was that although WashU classes are not easy, there are enough resources, and if you use all the support, you can get a 3.8-4.0 GPA and still have the time for other extracurriculars(am I wrong about this?), which I plan to have mainly research and medicine related extracurriculars like shadowing and volunteering but also spend a lot of my time implementing civic change in the St. Louis area, mainly through art and education, or perhaps a project internationally. I feel like this is some sort of plan I'm comfortable with as opposed to not really having as much of a plan switching to Brown.

My main reason for leaning toward WashU is that although it is tough, I've seen a lot of real cases(LinkedIn, online forums) of people at WashU working hard and going to a top 20 medical school, whereas I haven't really seen the same concrete proof from Brown as much or as often. Although I may be wrong, but my impression is that although it's easier to work through a premed education at Brown, fewer end up at top 20 med schools.

I definitely don't want to burn out in college, but I also am really striving for a top 20 medical school. If Brown and WashU has similar stats at sending students to top 20 medical schools, I think Brown would be the much better experience(I'm definitely not certain that I can get a 3.8-4.0 at WashU, but I am definitely a hard worker and have done well so far, so I may be wrong). But the issue is that I'm not seeing as many stories of people from Brown doing well and going to a top 20 medical school as opposed to WashU.

Am I wrong with this thinking and choosing WashU in this situation?

Yes, I think maybe you're wrong. You think that "Brown would be the much better experience" but your focus is on "going to a top 20 medical school". Why? How about having a happy college experience and going to whichever medical school is a good fit for you? I have nothing against WashU; it's a great school, but as a parent I don't like to see a child give up what they think would make them happy. Four years of college is a long time.

 

[efle]

You think that "Brown would be the much better experience" but your focus is on "going to a top 20 medical school". Why? How about having a happy college experience and going to whichever medical school is a good fit for you?

Quoting for truth. College has the potential to be among the best years of your life. Don't miss out on that just to have a slightly more prestigious diploma in the back office that none of your patients will ever know about

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

OP - My son gave up one of the Ivies (higher "ranked" than Brown) and another T10 to go to a T20 school and have no regrets. He is also aiming for T20 medical schools.

 

[BobbyMaye]

Has your decision been finalized? If not, I’d love to share some thoughts!

By all means, please share your thoughts!

 

[MyOdyssey]

OP - My son gave up one of the Ivies (higher "ranked" than Brown) and another T10 to go to a T20 school and have no regrets. He is also aiming for T20 medical schools.

Was your son incentivized in his choice by a full merit scholarship?

 

[Aviano91]

OP - My son gave up one of the Ivies (higher "ranked" than Brown) and another T10 to go to a T20 school and have no regrets. He is also aiming for T20 medical schools.

Too early for regrets. The ivy difference is real.

 

[efle]

Too early for regrets. The ivy difference is real.

Eh, maybe among the Ivies and other northeastern ivory towers. You go somewhere like Hopkins or Stanford or WashU or Duke and the composition shifts accordingly towards the stronger programs in each region.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Was your son incentivized in his choice by a full merit scholarship?

of course, but we left the decision making to him i.e. was willing to pay full-amount to T10s.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Too early for regrets. The ivy difference is real.

I don't think so. May be if it's Harvard or Stanford, but not others.

 

[Aviano91]

Eh, maybe among the Ivies and other northeastern ivory towers. You go somewhere like Hopkins or Stanford or WashU or Duke and the composition shifts accordingly towards the stronger programs in each region.

My perspective: What happens if these students do not arrive to a top 20? Is it top 20 or bust? I've known people like that. If that happens, the ivy league different will matter 100% even with the ranking not far off. That's why it's too soon for regrets; in my opinion of course.

 

[BobbyMaye]

My hands are tied. I like both institutions, and it seems like both institutions are great for sending people to top 20 medical schools, but put simply I can't decide on which to choose. I feel that sticking with WashU will somehow diminish my chances(though nothing is guaranteed) simply because it is not an ivy league school. At both schools I know I will work hard to get into a top medical school, but I simply don't know how I can justify choosing Brown over WashU from the Ivy League name.

 

[efle]

My perspective: What happens if these students do not arrive to a top 20? Is it top 20 or bust? I've known people like that. If that happens, the ivy league different will matter 100% even with the ranking not far off. That's why it's too soon for regrets; in my opinion of course.

What I'm saying holds true outside of medicine, too. Silicon valley giants, big Chicago consulting firms, desirable STEM employers in the midwest and south (like Boeing, Exxon) are not stuffed with HYP grads the way Wall Street and Boston firms are. Top-shelf employers recruit from campuses like Berkeley, UCLA, U Chicago, Northwestern, WashU, Duke, Rice, Vandy, etc as well, just not the same ones you'd be familiar with if you're born, raised, and educated all in the northeastern microcosm.

Case in point, I'm at a non-Ivy "top 5" for my MD and my significant other who also attended WUSTL was hired by one of FAANG. You really don't give up much by walking away from schools like Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth to join peer student bodies elsewhere unless you have very narrow interests in the northeast.

 

[BobbyMaye]

If anyone has any advice about that ^ or statistics(especially about where Brown premed students end up, because WashU's statistics are much more detailed) please let me know. My parents aren't really convinced that Brown has the same caliber premed program in sending students to top 20 institutions(though I know I will do my best at both).
Brown has a very vague chart for matriculants(Medical Admission Data Snapshot | Health Careers Advising) but they don't even specify what years they were taken from, which yields more doubt about choosing Brown while aiming for top medical schools.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

If anyone has any advice about that ^ or statistics(especially about where Brown premed students end up, because WashU's statistics are much more detailed) please let me know. My parents aren't really convinced that Brown has the same caliber premed program in sending students to top 20 institutions(though I know I will do my best at both).
Brown has a very vague chart for matriculants(Medical Admission Data Snapshot | Health Careers Advising) but they don't even specify what years they were taken from, which yields more doubt about choosing Brown while aiming for top medical schools.

For some Brown is a low-tier Ivy and doesn't have same value as others. Their medical school is not a T20. Brown University (Alpert) is ranked No. 38 (tie) in Best Medical Schools: Research and No. 35 (tie) in primary care. Where as Washington University in St. Louis is ranked No. 6 (tie) in Best Medical Schools: Research and No. 31 (tie) in Best Medical Schools: Primary Care. So I don't understand your logic regarding Brown.

 

[efle]

My hands are tied. I like both institutions, and it seems like both institutions are great for sending people to top 20 medical schools, but put simply I can't decide on which to choose. I feel that sticking with WashU will somehow diminish my chances(though nothing is guaranteed) simply because it is not an ivy league school. At both schools I know I will work hard to get into a top medical school, but I simply don't know how I can justify choosing Brown over WashU from the Ivy League name.

Well let me share a piece of internal data with you. These are the percent of students interviewed at my med school during a recent year from each category.

Spoiler: Interview Percentages

As you can see, more interviewees were supplied by the rest of the top 20 than by the Ivies, and overall the vast majority (>75%) were from non-Ivies.

Making any kind of sacrifice over the perceived prestige differences of Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell vs WashU/Northwestern/Rice/Vandy is entirely occurring inside of people's heads (and on college confidential, of course).

Edit: I'll also add, it is a very bizarre belief to think that everyone wants to move to the northeast for Ivy branding. I went to high school in California and many of the brightest kids preferred state schools like Cal and UCLA above the Ivies without a second thought.

 

[MyOdyssey]

If anyone has any advice about that ^ or statistics(especially about where Brown premed students end up, because WashU's statistics are much more detailed) please let me know. My parents aren't really convinced that Brown has the same caliber premed program in sending students to top 20 institutions(though I know I will do my best at both).
Brown has a very vague chart for matriculants(Medical Admission Data Snapshot | Health Careers Advising) but they don't even specify what years they were taken from, which yields more doubt about choosing Brown while aiming for top medical schools.

Why not ask your admissions representive at Brown to disclose more detailed medical school admissions data for Brown undergrads. Their response should be edifying.

 

[KnightDoc]

Well let me share a piece of internal data with you. These are the percent of students interviewed at my med school during a recent year from each category.

Spoiler: Interview Percentages

View attachment 315488

As you can see, more interviewees were supplied by the rest of the top 20 than by the Ivies, and overall the vast majority (>75%) were from non-Ivies.

Making any kind of sacrifice over the perceived prestige differences of Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell vs WashU/Northwestern/Rice/Vandy is entirely occurring inside of people's heads (and on college confidential, of course).

Edit: I'll also add, it is a very bizarre belief to think that everyone wants to move to the northeast for Ivy branding. I went to high school in California and many of the brightest kids preferred state schools like Cal and UCLA above the Ivies without a second thought.

Lie, damn lies, and statistics. Your graph does not show what you purport it to show. All it shows is that 8 schools (Ivies) supplied more interviewees than 5 schools (HYPSM), and that 20 schools (T20) supplied more interviewees than 8. In fact, it seems pretty clear that if you strip out the .24 supplied by the Ivies, the .31 supplied by the remaining 12 looks a lot less impressive, since it is proportionally less than the .24 supplied by the Ivies!!!! (.03 for each Ivy, .026 each for the other 12.)

Yes, the vast majority of interviewees (and, for that matter, med students) are from non-Ivies, given that there are 8 Ivies and over 4,000 other schools.

It is irrefutable that the Ivies are over represented. The debate is whether this is because the schools themselves confer some advantage, or, as I believe, it is simply a function of the Ivies being over populated with very strong candidates.

 

[efle]

Lie, damn lies, and statistics. Your graph does not show what you purport it to show. All it shows is that 8 schools (Ivies) supplied more interviewees than 5 schools (HYPSM), and that 20 schools (T20) supplied more interviewees than 8. In fact, it seems pretty clear that if you strip out the .24 supplied by the Ivies, the .31 supplied by the remaining 12 looks a lot less impressive, since it is proportionally less that .24 supplied by the Ivies!!!! (.03 for each Ivy, .026 for the other 12.)

Yes, the vast majority of interviewees (and, for that matter, med students) are from non-Ivies, given that there are 8 Ivies and over 4,000 other schools.

I hate to break it to you but .24/8 and .31/12 are about as close as you can get with small denominators

 

[KnightDoc]

I hate to break it to you but .24/8 and .31/12 are about as close as you can get with small denominators

Okay, but the rounding goes the other way, so it's not true that more interviewees (by school) were provided by the "rest of the T20." Four additional T20s collectively added .07, when each Ivy added .03 all by itself (and we both know that some Ivies added way more than others!).

 

[Aviano91]

What I'm saying holds true outside of medicine, too. Silicon valley giants, big Chicago consulting firms, desirable STEM employers in the midwest and south (like Boeing, Exxon) are not stuffed with HYP grads the way Wall Street and Boston firms are. Top-shelf employers recruit from campuses like Berkeley, UCLA, U Chicago, Northwestern, WashU, Duke, Rice, Vandy, etc as well, just not the same ones you'd be familiar with if you're born, raised, and educated all in the northeastern microcosm.

Case in point, I'm at a non-Ivy "top 5" for my MD and my significant other who also attended WUSTL was hired by one of FAANG. You really don't give up much by walking away from schools like Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth to join peer student bodies elsewhere unless you have very narrow interests in the northeast.

We at least agree that you 'give up' something. My wife attends UPENN's master in data science program currently and is on her way to quite the career (but enough about our spouses ). I've been in law/business for 9 years now as well. You don't have to listen but I feel it should not be underestimated. You have to work a little bit harder if you're not apart of that 'league'. I don't care what school someone went out of outside of the Ivy league. I literally see it every week.

At the end of the day you should attend a program that you think you can deal with for 4 years. If your goal is to absolutely go top 20, think about what i'm saying. As the thread shows there is at least one or two from WashU's undergrad that did not get into a t20 med program. That's the OP's goal.

OP, don't be silly and think that you can't get into a t20 from Brown.

Additionally, what if you don't reach that goal? Let's not fall into faulty thinking and assume you will be an amazing student compared to all of the other super amazing studs that graduated from high school and made it to WashU and then dropped out of the pre-med program due to rigor. You hope for the best and work for it but some of the arguments in this thread aren't too convincing for WashU.

What if you one day you just say F it and decide to go into another field? You know... just like the WashU statistics (as stated in this thread) and nation wide pre med statistics show? Alot drop out. You will do well coming from WashU but you could be better. You can go just the same to Brown and possibly have a better time and still make it to a top 20 med school just the same.

 

[az72098]

Hey! I just graduated from WashU- I'm taking a gap year but currently in the midst of the MD application cycle. I haven't read this whole forum super thoroughly, but I can definitely speak to my own experiences (both negative and positive) being premed at WashU. I had a really great experience overall both from an academic perspective and was able to be involved in a lot of amazing ECs that made my college career special. From what I'm aware of, med schools understand and respect the rigor of WashU's premed program, so if your reasons for not going is just because it's not an Ivy, I wouldn't worry. Grade deflation is real but med schools are also aware of that so it all kinda balances out. Anyway, feel free to DM me if you have specific questions or just wanna chat about the school!

 

[KnightDoc]

Hey! I just graduated from WashU- I'm taking a gap year but currently in the midst of the MD application cycle. I haven't read this whole forum super thoroughly, but I can definitely speak to my own experiences (both negative and positive) being premed at WashU. I had a really great experience overall both from an academic perspective and was able to be involved in a lot of amazing ECs that made my college career special. From what I'm aware of, med schools understand and respect the rigor of WashU's premed program, so if your reasons for not going is just because it's not an Ivy, I wouldn't worry. Grade deflation is real but med schools are also aware of that so it all kinda balances out. Anyway, feel free to DM me if you have specific questions or just wanna chat about the school!

Exactly how does it balance out? We all know WashU students are very bright as a group, and this is proven by how well they perform on the MCAT as compared to other schools. But do you know whether, and, if so, by how much, WashU graduates outperform everyone else after normalizing GPAs (i.e., how much better does a 3.4/520 fare coming from WashU as compared to the national number)?

The experience of other recent grads who have posted suggests it's not by much, if at all. The numbers definitely suggest WashU has more than its fair share of such candidates, but I have seen nothing to suggest that they do better than their similarly situated peers from across the country, while the evidence definitely suggests their GPAs would be higher if they attended other schools.

 

[az72098]

Exactly how does it balance out? We all know WashU students are very bright as a group, and this is proven by how well they perform on the MCAT as compared to other schools. But do you know whether, and, if so, by how much, WashU graduates outperform everyone else after normalizing GPAs (i.e., how much better does a 3.4/520 fare coming from WashU as compared to the national number)?

The experience of other recent grads who have posted suggests it's not by much, if at all. The numbers definitely suggest WashU has more than its fair share of such candidates, but I have seen nothing to suggest that they do better than their similarly situated peers from across the country, while the evidence definitely suggests their GPAs would be higher if they attended other schools.

At WashU there's a lot of talk about what we call the "WashU Bump." Meaning, when looking at national stats for med school acceptances, it's safe to bump up a WashU GPA to compare to peer institutions. People say different things but generally I've heard you can bump your GPA at WashU by ~0.2 (ie. a 3.4 is a 3.6 when comparing to others). To address your example, our data shows in the past 5 years that 91% of first time applicants with a 520/3.4 are accepted. So judging by LizzyM anyway, which says 69% for those stats, a WashU student would actually be better off.

 

[efle]

When you compare the WashU grid against the national AMCAS grid (equalizes both GPA and MCAT), there is indeed a WashU Bump for getting in somewhere. But for many people, that means their not-super-competitive state schools, like Mizzou or U Iowa for many locals.

The bump doesn't really exist for top 20s - see my link to the thread about that data earlier. When you compare the WashU GPAs that get accepted to top schools, it's similar to the overall MSAR ranges for those schools, not lower.

 

[KnightDoc]

When you compare the WashU grid against the national AMCAS grid (equalizes both GPA and MCAT), there is indeed a WashU Bump for getting in somewhere. But for many people, that means their not-super-competitive state schools, like Mizzou or U Iowa for many locals.

The bump doesn't really exist for top 20s - see my link to the thread about that data earlier. When you compare the WashU GPAs that get accepted to top schools, it's similar to the overall MSAR ranges for those schools, not lower.

This^^^^^. Also, and please don't take this the wrong way, because most schools do this, but realize WashU is shading its reported data. Reapplicants have a lower acceptance rate for reasons that might seem obvious, but WashU is only reporting first time acceptance rates (no doubt in order to boost its reported numbers) while the data provided by AAMC (and to which @LizzyM cites) reports ALL applicants, not just first timers, so the AAMC data will be lower by definition.

I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from, but 520 is 98%-ile in 2020, and the WashU admit number for that GPA/MCAT combo is 80%, not 91% (from 2014 through 2018). HUGE difference!!!

Given how admissions are just more and more competitive every year, the odds are very high the WashU 2019-20 number is below even the reported 80%. Suffice it to say the 69%/91% comparison is apples to oranges, to the extent it is valid at all. My money is on the bump being nonexistent, other than to the extent a 3.4 from WashU is just a stronger candidate, with stronger research, ECs and MCATs, than a generic candidate from a random school with the same GPA.

If their numbers were so great, why massage them by filtering out reapplicants, and by parsing the MCAT percentiles so finely so as to make a direct comparison to the AAMC numbers impossible?

 

[MyOdyssey]

Hopefully, the OP will follow through with my earlier suggestion of asking for more granular medical school admissions data from Brown so s/he can have a head to head comparison.

Posting that data here would give us some insight into how grade inflation/deflation by elite undergrads affects admission rates. Brown and Wash U are on opposite sides of the spectrum in terms of grade inflation/deflation and it would be interesting to see whether common perceptions about how differences in grading policies impacts medical school admissions.

 

[KnightDoc]

Hopefully, the OP will follow through with my earlier suggestion of asking for more granular medical school admissions data from Brown so s/he can have a head to head comparison.

Posting that data here would give us some insight into how grade inflation/deflation by elite undergrads affects admission rates. Brown and Wash U are on opposite sides of the spectrum in terms of grade inflation/deflation and it would be interesting to see whether common perceptions about how differences in grading policies impacts medical school admissions.

The problem with that is going to be that Brown is a pretty small school (half the size of WashU), and a disproportionate number of their pre-meds have a guaranteed seat in their med school, so a head to head comparison will be impossible. The bottom line is really where we started -- they are both great schools, and small perceived differences in med school admission prospects should not drive the decision.

 

[MyOdyssey]

The problem with that is going to be that Brown is a pretty small school, and a disproportionate number of their pre-med have a guaranteed seat in their med school, so a head to head comparison will be impossible. The bottom line is really where we started -- they are both great schools, and small perceived difference in med school admission prospects should not drive the decision.

Skilled stats heads like you and @efle should be able to tease out the effects of Brown's BS/MD program and give us a true head to head ...

 

[az72098]

This^^^^^. Also, and please don't take this the wrong way, because most schools do this, but realize WashU is shading its reported data. Reapplicants have a lower acceptance rate for reasons that might seem obvious, but WashU is only reporting first time acceptance rates (no doubt in order to boost its reported numbers) while the data provided by AAMC (and to which @LizzyM cites) reports ALL applicants, not just first timers, so the AAMC data will be lower by definition.

I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from, but 520 is 98%-ile in 2020, and the WashU admit number for that GPA/MCAT combo is 80%, not 91% (from 2014 through 2018). HUGE difference!!!

Given how admissions are just more and more competitive every year, the odds are very high the WashU 2019-20 number is below even the reported 80%. Suffice it to say the 69%/91% comparison is apples to oranges, to the extent it is valid at all. My money is on the bump being nonexistent, other than to the extent a 3.4 from WashU is just a stronger candidate, with stronger research, ECs and MCATs, than a generic candidate from a random school with the same GPA.

If their numbers were so great, why massage them by filtering out reapplicants, and by parsing the MCAT percentiles so finely so as to make a direct comparison to the AAMC numbers impossible?

Haha alright guys I'm not trying to start a fight here. I only replied to share my own personal experience as a WashU student and med school applicant and to help out OP however I can. You can go back and forth all you want about specific statistics for any school, but when it comes down to it, every person is gonna be a different applicant and have different things going for them outside of MCAT, GPA, and the school they attended. I don't think anyone should really be picking a college entirely based on their med school acceptance stats so it's honestly not worth it to micro-analyze all of this. There are a lot of factors that allow an individual to thrive academically (not to mention socially/emotionally) in college so maybe step back and look at other factors you like/don't like about both schools!

 

[KnightDoc]

Skilled stats heads like you and @efle should be able to tease out the effects of Brown's BS/MD program and give us a true head to head ...

Not possible after accounting for the fact that, with the significantly smaller sample size, after stripping out the BS/MDs, the data just won't be meaningful. WashU had 370 med school applicants last year; Brown had 289, around 70 of which were funneled directly into its med school. (Brown medical school only fills 53% of its class of 144 through AMCAS.) This skews its premed data so much that it really can't be compared to anything else.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Not possible after accounting for the fact that, with the significantly smaller sample size, after stripping out the BS/MDs, the data just won't be meaningful. Brown medical school only fills 53% of its class of 144 through AMCAS. This skews its premed data so much that it really can't be compared to anything else.

I’m referring to Brown undergrads v Wash U undergrads NOT Brown med v. Wash U Med.

 

[efle]

Skilled stats heads like you and @efle should be able to tease out the effects of Brown's BS/MD program and give us a true head to head ...

I doubt they'd ever share the kind of data WashU does, after all the flak Harvard caught when the scandal broke about the A- average and A mode.

Even Princeton recently caved to the power of inflation. For a decade they had a formal policy that limited A grades to 1/3rd of the class across all departments. They quietly got rid of that a few years back. I don't have proof, but seems easily deduced that they had a good reason - either they were losing too many pre-professional school admits to inflating peers, or realized they were damaging the grad school outcomes of the people who did matriculate.

Point being, when an entire institution that prided itself on meaningful grading among the intellectual cream of the crop does away with that policy, you know you need to pay attention to grade inflation/deflation when choosing where to attend.

 

[KnightDoc]

I’m referring to Brown undergrads v Wash U undergrads NOT Brown med v. Wash U Med.

Yes, that's what I'm quoting!!

Undergrads with a guaranteed acceptance into the med school shouldn't be part of the discussion. After screening them out, Brown has half the number applying as WashU. I'm sure if we had the same data from the Brown pre-med advising office that we do from WashU, it would show that their pre-meds have higher GPAs and higher acceptance rates, without having to strip out reapplicants. But, on the other hand, they have a lot less people applying each year (after stripping out the BS/MDs and others who have guaranteed admission, which will certainly boost their reported numbers). But it's unfair to just strip them out, since they'd probably be admitted elsewhere regardless. That makes it difficult to make a meaningful comparison.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Yes, that's what I'm quoting!!

Undergrads with a guaranteed acceptance into the med school shouldn't be part of the discussion. After screening them out, Brown has half the number applying as WashU. I'm sure if we had the same data from the Brown pre-med advising office that we do from WashU, it would show that their pre-meds have higher GPAs and higher acceptance rates, without having to strip out reapplicants. But, on the other hand, they have a lot less people applying each year (after stripping out the BS/MDs and others who have guaranteed admission, which will certainly boost their reported numbers). But it's unfair to just strip them out, since they'd probably be admitted elsewhere regardless. That makes it difficult to make a meaningful comparison.

In 2019-2020, Wash U supplied 370 applicants to medical schools. Brown supplied 289 applicants to medical schools.

https://www.aamc.org/system/files/2019-11/2019_FACTS_Table_A-2.pdf

The table doesn't specify whether BS/MD students are counted as "applicants" to medical schools. Intuitively, Brown's BS/MD students would not be counted as "applicants" from Brown, because students apply to the BS/MD program from high school, not Brown undergrad.

In any event, Brown's BS/MD program only matriculates about 50 students out of high school.

Program in Liberal Medical Education | Medical School | Brown University

An innovative program that combines undergraduate education and professional studies in medicine in a single eight-year program.

www.brown.edu

This means that, assuming all 50 students make it to the point when they "graduate" from Brown undergrad and assuming they are then counted as "applying" to Brown Med (Alpert), then the number of Brown undergrads applying to med school (excluding BS/MD) would be 239 for 2019-2020.

370 (Wash) v. 239 (Brown) aren't drastically different in proportion to their underlying undergrad classes (I believe Wash U has a somewhat larger class size). They can be compared but only if Brown would release its detailed medical school admissions data as Wash U has done. Brown has an incentive to do so if their grade inflating ways help their students get into medical school.

 

[KnightDoc]

In 2019-2020, Wash U supplied 370 applicants to medical schools. Brown supplied 289 applicants to medical schools.

https://www.aamc.org/system/files/2019-11/2019_FACTS_Table_A-2.pdf

The table doesn't specify whether BS/MD students are counted as "applicants" to medical schools. Intuitively, Brown's BS/MD students would not be counted as "applicants" from Brown, because students apply to the BS/MD program from high school, not Brown undergrad.

In any event, Brown's BS/MD program only matriculates about 50 students out of high school.

Program in Liberal Medical Education | Medical School | Brown University

An innovative program that combines undergraduate education and professional studies in medicine in a single eight-year program.

www.brown.edu

This means that, assuming all 50 students make it to the point when they "graduate" from Brown undergrad and assuming they are then counted as "applying" to Brown Med (Alpert), then the number of Brown undergrads applying to med school (excluding BS/MD) would be 239 for 2019-2020.

370 (Wash) v. 239 (Brown) aren't drastically different in proportion to their underlying undergrad classes (I believe Wash U has a somewhat larger class size). They can be compared but only if Brown would release its detailed medical school admissions data as Wash U has done. Brown has an incentive to do so if their grade inflating ways help their students get into medical school.

There is nothing "intuitive" about it. They enter Brown med as M1s. They are counted in MSAR. They are part of the population AAMC is tabulating.

I don't know what "approximately 50 students" means. But I know what 41% (not 47%, as I mistakenly stated above!) of 144 equals.

Routes of Admission

We offer multiple admission routes for qualified applicants, which results in a remarkably talented and diverse medical student body.

www.brown.edu

So, knock another 9 off your 239, and, yeah, 230 is a lot different than 370 (62%).

You are right about pre-meds as a proportion of the class. Brown's class is around half the size of WashU's. That's what makes the comparison invalid. They have half the number of students to place, and their GPAs are higher. It stands to reason they would do better, but it's not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[MyOdyssey]

There is nothing "intuitive" about it. They enter Brown med as M1s. They are counted in MSAR. They are part of the population AAMC is tabulating.

I don't know what "approximately 50 students" means. But I know what 41% (not 47%, as I mistakenly stated above!) of 144 equals.

Routes of Admission

We offer multiple admission routes for qualified applicants, which results in a remarkably talented and diverse medical student body.

www.brown.edu

So, knock another 9 off your 239, and, yeah, 230 is a lot different than 370 (62%).

Approximately is how Brown's webpage describes their target number of BS/MD admittees in a single year.

No one cares what percentage of Brown's medical school class is comprised of Brown BS/MD students (41% apparently) because the issue is how Brown non-BS/MD undergrads compare to Wash U non-BS/MD undergrads when applying to medical schools.

How do you know the cited table includes BS/MD students? The table itself doesn't say.

370 and 239 are not drastically different numbers. Both Wash U and Brown are on the leaderboard for medical school applicants per year according to the official table I cited.

 

[KnightDoc]

Approximately is how Brown's webpage describes their target number of BS/MD admittees in a single year.

No one cares what percentage of Brown's medical school class is comprised of Brown BS/MD students (41% apparently) because the issue is how Brown non-BS/MD undergrads compare to Wash U non-BS/MD undergrads when applying to medical schools.

How do you know the cited table includes BS/MD students? The table itself doesn't say.

370 and 239 are not drastically different numbers. Both Wash U and Brown are on the leaderboard for medical school applicants per year according to the official table I cited.

They are as different (or the same) as 62 and 100 (C- and A+ ).

I know the table includes all applicants to med school, and BS/MD matriculants are counted as applicants in the year they matriculate, otherwise they wouldn't be included in MSAR (and they are). The table doesn't have to say. It's a table of applicants. There isn't someone sitting in an office compiling it by hand. It's extracted from AMCAS data.

All M1s go through AMCAS, even BS/MD. The reason for that is so that these people are accounted for, since, after all, they do occupy MD seats, they are applicants, they are accepted, and they matriculate. Why wouldn't they be in any particular table? In general it doesn't matter, but it does at schools like Brown and UMKC, where a ridiculous proportion of the class comes from the program, or at a UG like Brown, where 59/289 applicants come from it (plus whoever started BS/MD and applied out, so aren't counted in the 59).

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Brown takes around 60 BSMD candidates every year and they are included in the AMCAS data when they matriculate.