We need this exact thing to happen in Family Medicine

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A thought occurred to me as I sat at lunch with a group of other fam docs at a CME conference a couple weeks ago.

As physicians, we've been so involved in turf wars with each other that we've been blindsided by the real turf war, and have yet to unite. Overzealous medical boards confiscating huge sums in the form of dues, corporate medicine, frivolous lawsuits, managed care, healthcare "reform"... the list goes on and on. Everyone saw the pot of money and wanted a piece of the action and for the most part, we've given it to them.
 
Meh.

I'd really like if they want from big 10-year exam to open book questions every quarter/year like some of the other boards, but I just don't find MOC in FM that onerous and I usually learn something.
 
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mark v said:
A thought occurred to me as I sat at lunch with a group of other fam docs at a CME conference a couple weeks ago.

As physicians, we've been so involved in turf wars with each other that we've been blindsided by the real turf war, and have yet to unite. Overzealous medical boards confiscating huge sums in the form of dues, corporate medicine, frivolous lawsuits, managed care, healthcare "reform"... the list goes on and on. Everyone saw the pot of money and wanted a piece of the action and for the most part, we've given it to them.
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Our lack of true organization and representation has led to us being manipulated and basically ripped off.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
Meh.

I'd really like if they want from big 10-year exam to open book questions every quarter/year like some of the other boards, but I just don't find MOC in FM that onerous and I usually learn something.
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You passive stance on useless training and time consuming activities that are worthless is eye opening. But most FM docs seem to be very passive.
 
Ericslv said:
You passive stance on useless training and time consuming activities that are worthless is eye opening. But most FM docs seem to be very passive.
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Did you not read my post? I don't find them useless on the whole. I've yet to take a KSA (used to be SAM) where I didn't learn something new. The Part 4 stuff is more hit or miss, I'll admit. I've done 2 of the AAFP METRIC activities for that - one I learned something, one I didn't.

As for time consuming - hogwash. If a KSA takes you more than maybe 2 hours, then you're doing it wrong. I hardly think 2 hours/year is asking too much - especially as you get 8 CME hours for doing one.

Part 4 takes me 30 minutes two times (or at least it did for DM and HTN). So 60 minutes across the whole year and you can claim up to 20 hours of CME for it. Yeah, totally unbearable time consuming.
 
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VA Hopeful Dr said:
Did you not read my post? I don't find them useless on the whole. I've yet to take a KSA (used to be SAM) where I didn't learn something new. The Part 4 stuff is more hit or miss, I'll admit. I've done 2 of the AAFP METRIC activities for that - one I learned something, one I didn't.

As for time consuming - hogwash. If a KSA takes you more than maybe 2 hours, then you're doing it wrong. I hardly think 2 hours/year is asking too much - especially as you get 8 CME hours for doing one.

Part 4 takes me 30 minutes two times (or at least it did for DM and HTN). So 60 minutes across the whole year and you can claim up to 20 hours of CME for it. Yeah, totally unbearable time consuming.
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See this is where you are brainwashed. You can get the same thing for 1/2 the price at any other CME event. Not to mention that it's not voluntary. You have to have it to stay board certified. Which is BS. Physicians should be able to get any cme they want and tailor it to their wishes. The ABFM should have no say in that. It is a total conflict of interest. It's a money making BS. It's unbearable because I don't want to be forced to do their crappy CME. I have my own sources. I also don't want to pay someone who lobbies insurance companies and hospitals to keep me of their networks if I don't use their board. Stop giving your power away.
 
  1. 1. MOC should not be associated with hospital privileges.
  2. 2. MOC should not be associated with insurance reimbursements or network participation.
  3. 3. MOC should not be required for Maintenance of Licensure.
  4. 4. MOC should not be mandatory.
  5. 5. All Board certificates must be converted to lifetime status; only then will MOC be voluntary.
 
Ericslv said:
See this is where you are brainwashed. You can get the same thing for 1/2 the price at any other CME event. Not to mention that it's not voluntary. You have to have it to stay board certified. Which is BS. Physicians should be able to get any cme they want and tailor it to their wishes. The ABFM should have no say in that. It is a total conflict of interest. It's a money making BS. It's unbearable because I don't want to be forced to do their crappy CME. I have my own sources. I also don't want to pay someone who lobbies insurance companies and hospitals to keep me of their networks if I don't use their board. Stop giving your power away.
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Untrue:

AAFP Emergency CME Course in Las Vegas, NV, $900/26 hours. So $34/hour.

A single METRIC module is basically $200 (free with AAFP membership but $200 yearly ABFM fee) so $10/hour. Or, you know, 1/3rd the price.

FMX this year was $800 for up to 28 hours. That's $28/hour.

My state's yearly meeting was $600. I could max out at 25 hours. That's $24/hour.

Also at all of those, 1 hour of time gives you 1 hour of CME. MOC is much more efficient.



Beyond that, it can be voluntary. Do DPC. Loads of those folks drop board certification. Get one of the alternate boards (the ones that don't require ABMS certification) and work somewhere those are accepted. You're somewhat limited, but there are jobs to be had that way.

Ericslv said:
  1. 1. MOC should not be associated with hospital privileges.
  2. 2. MOC should not be associated with insurance reimbursements or network participation.
  3. 3. MOC should not be required for Maintenance of Licensure.
  4. 4. MOC should not be mandatory.
  5. 5. All Board certificates must be converted to lifetime status; only then will MOC be voluntary.
Click to expand...

1. Its not required on any large level, each hospital makes their own rules about that.
2. Medicare doesn't require it. That means that any insurance that does does it on their own. If Blue Cross wants to make it mandatory, that's their business.
3. Its not in many, if not most, states
4. Its not, see above
5. I actually wouldn't mind this. You have 2 tiers. Certified but not doing MOC, and Certified and doing MOC. Let hospitals/insurance/employers decide whether or not they care.
 
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VA Hopeful Dr said:
Untrue:

AAFP Emergency CME Course in Las Vegas, NV, $900/26 hours. So $34/hour.

A single METRIC module is basically $200 (free with AAFP membership but $200 yearly ABFM fee) so $10/hour. Or, you know, 1/3rd the price.

FMX this year was $800 for up to 28 hours. That's $28/hour.

My state's yearly meeting was $600. I could max out at 25 hours. That's $24/hour.

Also at all of those, 1 hour of time gives you 1 hour of CME. MOC is much more efficient.



Beyond that, it can be voluntary. Do DPC. Loads of those folks drop board certification. Get one of the alternate boards (the ones that don't require ABMS certification) and work somewhere those are accepted. You're somewhat limited, but there are jobs to be had that way.



1. Its not required on any large level, each hospital makes their own rules about that.
2. Medicare doesn't require it. That means that any insurance that does does it on their own. If Blue Cross wants to make it mandatory, that's their business.
3. Its not in many, if not most, states
4. Its not, see above
5. I actually wouldn't mind this. You have 2 tiers. Certified but not doing MOC, and Certified and doing MOC. Let hospitals/insurance/employers decide whether or not they care.
Click to expand...

So many excuses just for ABFM. They suck. Stop making excuses for them.
 
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VA Hopeful Dr said:
I disagree. I'm not displeased with them. Sorry if that ruins your narrative.
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It doesn't ruin my narrative. It just shows how people choose to be victims and feed the academic trolls. Off course bluedog to the rescue. lol. I'm quite sure you are both in the minority.
 
Ericslv said:
It doesn't ruin my narrative. It just shows how people choose to be victims and feed the academic trolls. Off course bluedog to the rescue. lol. I'm quite sure you are both in the minority.
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Its possible we're in the minority, I honestly have no idea.

Pretty sure we're not victims though.
 
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Blue Dog said:
Neither am I. MOC is one of the things that sets us apart from the nurses. Suck it up.
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If you need MOC to set you apart from nurses you are in bigger trouble than you think. A few crappy questions and a stupid "quality" measures thing which measures nothing is not going to save you from NP's. There are multiples of NP's graduating more than MD's that go into primary care. About 1/2 of those NP's are going into primary care.
 
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Ericslv said:
It doesn't ruin my narrative. It just shows how people choose to be victims and feed the academic trolls. Off course bluedog to the rescue. lol. I'm quite sure you are both in the minority.
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:rolleyes:
 
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VA Hopeful Dr said:
Meh.

I'd really like if they want from big 10-year exam to open book questions every quarter/year like some of the other boards, but I just don't find MOC in FM that onerous and I usually learn something.
Click to expand...

Same here but I also have looked at the 990s for ABFM and their foundation and see that they've been making quite a bit from their near monopoly hold over us and skimming it off to their foundation to work on pet projects. That's our money.
Sunshine is a good disinfectant. We need to look and talk about that more. To prevent it, some competition is valuable. National Board of Physicians and Surgeons - Board Certification is not perfect (I'd prefer some sore of periodic testing) but it's a good start to keeping ABFM and ABMS in line.
 
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FamilymedMD said:
Same here but I also have looked at the 990s for ABFM and their foundation and see that they've been making quite a bit from their near monopoly hold over us and skimming it off to their foundation to work on pet projects. That's our money.
Sunshine is a good disinfectant. We need to look and talk about that more. To prevent it, some competition is valuable. National Board of Physicians and Surgeons - Board Certification is not perfect (I'd prefer some sore of periodic testing) but it's a good start to keeping ABFM and ABMS in line.
Click to expand...
I've been pleased with how the ABFM responds to our complaints.

The simulation that was part of the Part 2 stuff is now optional.

Going away from the big 10 year exam.

We were told in June that they are looking into making it less expensive (though truthfully $200/year isn't bad).
 
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The profession is in trouble if some people believe some certification test (not grueling med school and residency) is what set them apart from "nurses"... We are brainwashed!
 
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VA Hopeful Dr said:
I've been pleased with how the ABFM responds to our complaints.

The simulation that was part of the Part 2 stuff is now optional.

Going away from the big 10 year exam.

We were told in June that they are looking into making it less expensive (though truthfully $200/year isn't bad).
Click to expand...

Yep. FWIW, the current board chair-elect of the ABFM is one of my colleagues, and we were in the same room during the recertification exam this Spring. Trust me, they feel our pain.
 
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W19 said:
The profession is in trouble if some people believe some certification test (not grueling med school and residency) is what set them apart from "nurses"...
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It's just one more thing. Nurses have no MOC process. If they want to practice medicine independently, that's something that needs to change. As far as independent practice goes, that cat's out of the bag (thanks to legislation, not competence), so at this point all we can do for patient safety (aside from educating the public) is try to set the bar as high as possible, and make sure they're held accountable when they **** up.
 
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First BC is fine. Anything after that is just BS. If you partner is your colleagues now I know why you protect them so much. Total conflict of interest. They rip doctors off. Nothing they do improve quality. Why do I have to do an office project to show I'm improving quality and if I don't I lose my BC. What a bunch of s it. They are not more qualified than me or any other doctor. They seem to think they are. NBPS is all we need. Get rid of the academic garbage bogging us down. Nurses aren't going away because we have MOC. They are here because as group we are not well organized and allow organizations such a ABFM to take advantage of us. The ABMS and the rest of them are just taking advantage of us all.
 
Ericslv said:
If you partner is your colleagues now I know why you protect them so much. Total conflict of interest.
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I'm used to you being incoherent, but you consistently manage to outdo yourself. Do you even know what a conflict of interest is...?
 
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Blue Dog said:
I'm used to you being incoherent, but you consistently manage to outdo yourself. Do you even know what a conflict of interest is...?
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Clearly if your partner works for the ABFM you are receiving a kickback because that's how physician partnerships work these days.
 
Blue Dog said:
I'm used to you being incoherent, but you consistently manage to outdo yourself. Do you even know what a conflict of interest is...?
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I'm used to you being clueless. Now you have outdone yourself. Perhaps your judgement is jaded because you have no idea what your talking about. Or perhaps you think you know everything. Which is usually the case with you.
 
It seem you both need to get a room together. lol. But if you want to keep supporting a crap group like ABFM and keep paying them your hard earned money, go right ahead. The rest of us have better things to do.
 
Ericslv said:
It seem you both need to get a room together. lol. But if you want to keep supporting a crap group like ABFM and keep paying them your hard earned money, go right ahead. The rest of us have better things to do.
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Like whine pointlessly on SDN...? Yeah, we know.
 
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Ericslv said:
I'm used to you being clueless. Now you have outdone yourself. Perhaps your judgement is jaded because you have no idea what your talking about. Or perhaps you think you know everything. Which is usually the case with you.
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I don't know everything. However, I tend to avoid commenting on things that I don't know anything about. You should try it.
 
I asked nicely if we could keep it civil in here. Since that doesn't seem to be happening, I'm going to close the thread.
 
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