Weight of dean's letter?

[LemonLime]

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If a school has already offered you an interview, how much will a dean's letter influence their ranking decision (assuming one has an average dean's letter)?
Is dean's letter mostly used for granting interviews or does it come into play with how one is ranked?
Any help would be great! THANKS 🙂

 

[Gern Blansten]

Obviously negative comments can hurt you pretty badly. These are rare and usually significant if it gets as far as the Dean's letter(it seems that most schools have some system of checks to prevent random derogatory comments that are unfounded from appearing in the letter). If your letter is average without any negative comments, it probably won't have much impact.

 

[rufio173]

What's an average letter?

Isn't it that one line that is super important... kind of like morse code for your overall performance.

For example: I recommend Mr/Ms. So and So with the greatest confidence for his/her residency position of choice. VS...

I recommend Mr/Ms. So and So highly for his/her residency position of choice.

I recommend Mr/Ms. So and So for his/her residency position of choice.

I mean the first one with that sweet modifier sounds waaaay better.

So, which modifier is best... I mean real modifiers... I've just given out some examples of what I think he/she might write at the end.

Peace,
John

 

[LemonLime]

What I mean by average letter is exactly that... that one line at the bottom. What if your dean just 'recommends' you (but without confidence, etc). I know there are certain levels that correspond to how they recommend you. Just wanted to know how much that will hurt you in the end (assuming you already got an interview)

 

[nutmegs]

What's an average letter?

Isn't it that one line that is super important... kind of like morse code for your overall performance.

For example: I recommend Mr/Ms. So and So with the greatest confidence for his/her residency position of choice. VS...

I recommend Mr/Ms. So and So highly for his/her residency position of choice.

I recommend Mr/Ms. So and So for his/her residency position of choice.

I mean the first one with that sweet modifier sounds waaaay better.

So, which modifier is best... I mean real modifiers... I've just given out some examples of what I think he/she might write at the end.

Peace,
John

the modifiers vary by school- some use 4, some use 5. my school uses 4 (outstanding, excellent, very good, good). the programs know if the modifier is 3/4, 2/4, etc. at my school it's actually calculated, not assigned by the dean's letter writer, and indicates top 10%, etc.

 

[OB1🤙]

So here's my question- if every school's dean uses a different set of code words, how in the hell are PD's supposed to decipher these codes? Does every dean send out copies of their code words to every program in the country for every specialty? Are there magic decoder rings that get sent out? Are there golden plates with seeing stones? Is there voodoo involved? If so, should I walk down to the French Quarter and consult with my local voodoo priestess?

Seriously, if there aren't any standards for these mystical code words, how do they have any use at all? Maybe I'm missing something profound here, it wouldn't be the first time.

Maybe I'll just go visit the voodoo priestess for the fun of it.

 

[nutmegs]

So here's my question- if every school's dean uses a different set of code words, how in the hell are PD's supposed to decipher these codes? Does every dean send out copies of their code words to every program in the country for every specialty? Are there magic decoder rings that get sent out? Are there golden plates with seeing stones? Is there voodoo involved? If so, should I walk down to the French Quarter and consult with my local voodoo priestess?

Seriously, if there aren't any standards for these mystical code words, how do they have any use at all? Maybe I'm missing something profound here, it wouldn't be the first time.

Maybe I'll just go visit the voodoo priestess for the fun of it.

I know that the undergrad committee letters use the same kind of codes, and the admissions dean at my school always knows "oh, that's their second highest ranking".

maybe it is a ring 👍

 

[Gern Blansten]

It can be difficult. Most schools also include an explanation page that deciphers it. It was nice when all schools just listed a class rank and got it over with in a very simple way. I guess that is not PC anymore.

 

[LemonLime]

Is that line really that important? So some schools decide they are going to give you an interview based on that one sentence? I guess what I want to know is how much that line will hurt you if you have an average scoring from your dean
Any thoughts?

 

[signomi]

I mentioned before that I had the world's worst dean's letter. I was only at the school 22 months and it was written by an elderly doc who pretty much wrote a letter saying he had no idea who I was. He then made the letter a complete list of each and every comment ever written about me by every staff member (attendings, residents, nurses, janitors, serial killers). You can bet your butt the people who fill out >50% of your recs are people with an axe to grind, when they are optional. All my glowing evals paled next to comments that any rational human would realize were made by bitter angry people who exaggerate.
I applied to about 30 residencies, got 2 interviews and didn't match. I scrambled into a different residency and did well. Now I am applying for fellowships only to places that don't require the Dean's Letter. So it is still haunting me.
A bad Dean's Letter can kill you.

 

[nutmegs]

I mentioned before that I had the world's worst dean's letter. I was only at the school 22 months and it was written by an elderly doc who pretty much wrote a letter saying he had no idea who I was. He then made the letter a complete list of each and every comment ever written about me by every staff member (attendings, residents, nurses, janitors, serial killers). You can bet your butt the people who fill out >50% of your recs are people with an axe to grind, when they are optional. All my glowing evals paled next to comments that any rational human would realize were made by bitter angry people who exaggerate.
I applied to about 30 residencies, got 2 interviews and didn't match. I scrambled into a different residency and did well. Now I am applying for fellowships only to places that don't require the Dean's Letter. So it is still haunting me.
A bad Dean's Letter can kill you.

I dunno man. I don't really know of many people who deliberately f*ck someone's eval over something trivial- you really have to rub someone the wrong way, and if more than one person did it to you I as a decision maker would have to think there is only one common denominator to those evals.

 

[LemonLime]

I have alot of interviews right now (>20 programs). However, I am concerned that an average dean's letter will kill my chances of matching into a program if I only take about 10-11 interviews.
Any thoughts before I give up on this subject all together 🙂

 

[chips]

you sound like a really strong candidate. the schools that offered you the interviews did so based on what they've seen so far, and an average (it doesn't sound to me like your letter will be anything like what the other poster was describing) dean's letter will not change all the other aspects of your application. if you're truly worried about your class rank (that's essentially what the one sentence is about), then go on more interviews. my take is you'll have no problems matching; it's unlikely for residency programs to penalize you in match for not doing well your first two years.

 

[Venus21pam]

Does anyone have an idea how PDs look at foreign grads and their Dean's Letters?
I mean I asked my Dean's Office to write a letter for me but they haven't done it before so I have no clue what they put in it. I'm not sure if it's going to be even close to what a Dean's Letter should look like.
Knowing the people that work there I will just get a transcript once again with maybe my grades highlighted. My school just doesn't do evaluations after each rotation. We get our grades and that's it.

Any foreign grads that could comment on their experience?
Thanks in advance!

 

[pgy13]

I barely look at the dean's letters for IMGs. Usually pretty worthless.

 

[Gern Blansten]

chips is right. The one-line that is being discussed ONLY tells class rank. You could be the biggest jerk in the world and have the highest "code word" in your recommendation sentence if you are ranked high enough. Class rank can generally be estimated by looking at the transcript(except for strictly P/F schools), so to me, that is not the most important portion of the dean's letter. The more telling information is found in the narrative information. It doesn't necessarily have to be glowing, but negative remarks, especially from more than one person on different rotations, can seal your fate. There are somewhat negative comments (can't always tell if the evaluator is trying to soften the negativity) and then there are damning comments (there is NO doubt what the evaluator is saying). You don't want either but the latter will make it VERY tough on you.
Most dean's letters have similar content (ie worked well with the team, good personality, adequate fund of knowledge, etc). A small percentage have such glowing comments that it can significantly elevate your status. In contrast, a small percentage can have such negative comments that they can change you from an acceptable candidate to an unrankable candidate. In my opinion, the dean's letter is good for sorting out candidates that have a track record of problematic behavior. It usually takes something pretty darned bad for someone to write something obviously negative. It just doesn't happen that often.

 

[Duckie24]

So here's my question- if every school's dean uses a different set of code words, how in the hell are PD's supposed to decipher these codes? Does every dean send out copies of their code words to every program in the country for every specialty? Are there magic decoder rings that get sent out? Are there golden plates with seeing stones? Is there voodoo involved? If so, should I walk down to the French Quarter and consult with my local voodoo priestess?

Seriously, if there aren't any standards for these mystical code words, how do they have any use at all? Maybe I'm missing something profound here, it wouldn't be the first time.

Maybe I'll just go visit the voodoo priestess for the fun of it.

Too funny, Bruin. Loved reading this one. For some reason, I just have this picture of a PD as Yosemite Sam sitting at his desk saying, "I say, I say now, boy, what in the same hell does this here verbage mean!?"

Seriously, isn't our class rank included in the letter anyway? I thought part of the letter was the students quartile ranking.

After all is said and done, I can't imagine, after one's personal interview, that the selection committee is going to be sitting around saying, "Well, Joe Schmoe at Boondock State 'strongly recommends' Casper so I guess we should take him over Jesper because John Doe at East Bumbleweed only 'recommends' him in the dean's letter."