(Weird) IMG-friendly lists & programs comparison

[luCZky]

Hi,
I've read a lot of threads here but still I can't find the answer (google isn't helping too).

1) There are many webs with IMG friendly residencies but I not sure whether to trust them. All of them starts with NY and continue with the practically same names until California highlighting that these programs have a huge % of IMG. But what does it mean? That they are the only IMG friendly? I have two theories:
- They are really the only IMG friendly and our chances to get somewhere else are falling to zero (but why?!?!)
- It's a BS. Most of the IMGs were afraid of entering less known parts of US (they knew more just about the big west/east coast cities) and/or they wanted to have a better flight connection to home (ie again west/east big cities) a/o they had whatever else reasons to pick just these programs on the lists (except for their img-friendliness) -> what happened? They got their spots and next year others saw a bigger % of IMGs and thought "huh they are much more img friendly than others" and applied to that programs too, get their spots, made the % bigger... and so on. After that someone invented that img-friendly list... which of course made (again) much more IMGs to apply for residencies there. And now we are in the vicious circle despite the fact that all other programs may be as img friendly as that in NYC or Boston or elsewhere...

I can't make up any reason why to believe the first is true but the problem is that I don't know how PDs and people in general are thinking at these so called img UNfriendly areas.
So what do you think? Is it really wasting of time and money when trying to apply there as an IMG? Or it could be an advantage that no other IMGs are competing against me (us (S.O.))?



2) We are looking for ped residency (IM would be acceptable too but ped is pref) but we don't know where to apply (next year match season).
Of course we are going to apply widely... Of course we know about the most famous US universities but... despite the fact that we are going to graduate from the best university east of Germany and also that I am going to have a master degree (economics) from the top Central Europe university... I don't have any expectations about their interest in us. But there are still hundreds (or at least tens) of other ped programs offered all over the US and we can go everywhere - no families there, no friends, no connections, no preferred climate, no preferred place, nothing... whole our (so far) life stays here in former Czechoslovakia and our future is going to be "tabula rasa" - the only thing we know is that we have to match as couple and that we want to spend rest of our lives as an pediatricians in the US....
I tried to find any lists/ overviews/ reviews/ comparisons/ ratings/ whatever to find out which programs are excellent / good/ poor / really bad and so on... but except of img-friendly lists there was nothing else. According to ERAS there should be something like 200 ped programs participating which means 4,500$ for both of us just for applying to everyone which is nothing compared to your tuition debts but it is still a lot of money (especially for us and with many other necessary fees coming). I am not expecting anyone to sort that whole ERAS list up-to-down but if you could let me know where to find any kind of overviewing information or lists I would be glad. Or please at least tell me how to find out which program can be good and which is really crappy.

Thx a lot!!

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[thedeepend]

Hi,
I'm not really quite sure what you are asking in the first question. What I think I can understand that are you are asking is... why are some programs IMG friendly and others are not and is there a list of Peds programs that are? If that is correct, then my guess is that traditionally there were programs that were less competitive and the remaining spots would be filled by IMG's. Then, like you mentioned, the IMG friendly programs would self perpetuate from there. There are also schools that will just never accept IMG's, it's just the way it is. I don't know of any lists of IMG friendly programs for Peds. As an IMG myself, I looked at NRMP stats of which states accepted IMG's for my specialty and then I applied to all the programs there (if I wanted to work in that state). Unfortunately, they don't break down which schools have accepted IMG's through NRMP, but you can then go to each programs website, look at their current residents and see if they take IMGs. It is a little work but it is worth your time, especially if you are going to be couples matching and it could save you thousands in applications/travelling. That being said I would apply broadly as an IMG couples matching. Peds isn't that competitive, so if you have done well on your boards and you interview well, it is very possible that things will work out. I don't know if that helped, but hopefully a little.
Good Luck!

 

[luCZky]

Hi,
. As an IMG myself, I looked at NRMP stats of which states accepted IMG's for my specialty and then I applied to all the programs there (if I wanted to work in that state).

Sorry for my english... I haven't been speaking english almost 8 years since high school... I must get my english skills back until the November I know...
And thanks for response, I helped a little ...of course it did!

First question is supposed to be answered by US rather than by IMG since they are biased.

But the key point... I have a doubt about the whole IMG friend/unfriend programs thing... And you just highlighted it.
You looked where IMG were accepted last year and applied there since you thought that the rest of places is not going to accept you as an IMG. BUT!!! the all other IMGs did the same a year ago...
So they didn't even apply to these so-called "IMG UNfriendly" spots --> then of course --> no IMG was accepted there --> next year you (and others) looked at the list and saw that --> thus you got scared and again didn't even apply there --> so no IMG got accepted --> next year any other IMG is going to have a look at the match results and...... you already know what's going to happen.

As I said I am in a doubt about all the "good advices" to IMGs like "apply to NY they are IMG friendly" or so...
And yes if we have a look at report for peds it seems like that (IMG places/ All filled places %)
WEST VIRGINIA 50,0%
KANSAS 42,9%
NEW HAMPSHIRE 42,9%
NEW JERSEY 35,2%
ALABAMA 28,1%
MICHIGAN 27,5%
HAWAII 25,0%
NEW YORK 24,3%
MISSISSIPPI 21,4%
FLORIDA 17,9%
TEXAS 17,5%
COLUMBIA 14,9%
ILLINOIS 13,5%
OHIO 11,7%
MINNESOTA 11,4%
IOWA 10,5%
LOUISIANA 9,8%
KENTUCKY 6,9%
WISCONSIN 6,5%
ARIZONA 6,4%
MARYLAND 6,4%
NEW MEXICO 5,9%
MASSACHUSETTS 5,8%
5,8% GEORGIA
4,8% OKLAHOMA
4,5% VIRGINIA
4,4% PENNSYLVANIA
3,4% TENNESSEE
3,3% INDIANA
2,8% NORTH CAROLINA
2,5% CONNECTICUT
1,1% CALIFORNIA
0,0% ARKANSAS
0,0% COLORADO
0,0% MAINE
0,0% MISSOURI
0,0% NEBRASKA
0,0% NEVADA
0,0% OREGON
0,0% PUERTO RICO
0,0% RHODE ISLAND
0,0% SOUTH CAROLINA
0,0% SOUTH DAKOTA
0,0% UTAH
0,0% VERMONT
0,0% WASHINGTON

but.. again... Are the people (and commitees especially) for example in north carolina or maryland or even more in utah or so... really really against IMGs so it is impossible (or practically impossible) to get residency there?
Or it is just a BIAS given by the fact that 99% of IMG are scared to even apply there b/c they act like sheep "no one is coming there so I am not even trying to apply"
So my question was something like: How valid the whole img unfriendly/friendly thing is? Are there really programs which do not accept IMG just because he is IMG? And if there are then what are the states in the US where are people so much against IMG? (according to your knowledge of mentality of people there not according to biased stats)....
Thx!

 

[hallowmann]

Sorry for my english... I haven't been speaking english almost 8 years since high school... I must get my english skills back until the November I know...
And thanks for response, I helped a little ...of course it did!

First question is supposed to be answered by US rather than by IMG since they are biased.

But the key point... I have a doubt about the whole IMG friend/unfriend programs thing... And you just highlighted it.
You looked where IMG were accepted last year and applied there since you thought that the rest of places is not going to accept you as an IMG. BUT!!! the all other IMGs did the same a year ago...
So they didn't even apply to these so-called "IMG UNfriendly" spots --> then of course --> no IMG was accepted there --> next year you (and others) looked at the list and saw that --> thus you got scared and again didn't even apply there --> so no IMG got accepted --> next year any other IMG is going to have a look at the match results and...... you already know what's going to happen.

As I said I am in a doubt about all the "good advices" to IMGs like "apply to NY they are IMG friendly" or so...
And yes if we have a look at report for peds it seems like that (IMG places/ All filled places %)

.......

but.. again... Are the people (and commitees especially) for example in north carolina or maryland or even more in utah or so... really really against IMGs so it is impossible (or practically impossible) to get residency there?
Or it is just a BIAS given by the fact that 99% of IMG are scared to even apply there b/c they act like sheep "no one is coming there so I am not even trying to apply"

I'm not an IMG, and I'm not anywhere close to the match, but I have many relatives and friends who are IMGs and have (and have not) matched. You are trying to imply that the reason no one is matching in the areas that don't have IMGs is because everyone thinks that if a program doesn't have an IMG, its not worth applying to, so you are going to "break the mold" by applying to all these places that have never taken an IMG. The thing is, what makes you think you are the ONLY IMG to think that way? You aren't.

Every year there are thousands of IMGs that are willing to go quite frankly to the middle of nowhere for a training program. The reason they have "IMG friendly" places is that time and again those places have proven that they take IMGs. Its also most likely concentrated in places like NY and CA because they not only have tons of programs in those states with such concentrated populations, they also likely have tons more applicants (including IMGs).

Now sure, its possible some places have never taken IMGs because no great ones have really applied, but more often than not, its a safer bet that a place that has IMGs will be more open to bringing in IMGs. Its also likely that places without IMGs might be more hesitant to take IMGs, especially if they already have tons of AMGs filling spots. There is always a first, but being the first is harder and not as common as it sounds.

Now feel free to apply to any place you want. Who knows what will happen, maybe you'll get lucky. Really though, you should if possible be applying to a ton of places and contacting each program telling them about yourself, why you like their program, and asking if they would look positively at your application (be sure to have a native english speaker review any email you send to PCs or PDs). Contacting the programs and seeing what they say is the only way to really figure out what they are looking for. No one here can tell you with any clear confidence that all the programs in such and such state are "IMG friendly" or "IMG unfriendly," because it varies from program to program, from PD to PD.

I have relatives (IMGs) with good board scores (>240) that have applied for the match to >150 places with only a few interviews, and have failed to match or SOAP. The road is tough and getting tougher. Your best bet is to apply as broadly as you can and put your best foot forward. Good luck.

So my question was something like: How valid the whole img unfriendly/friendly thing is? Are there really programs which do not accept IMG just because he is IMG? And if there are then what are the states in the US where are people so much against IMG? (according to your knowledge of mentality of people there not according to biased stats)....
Thx!

To answer this question, yes there are many programs like this, just as there are programs that don't accept DOs just because they are DOs, and don't accept MDs from mid-low tier US MD schools, just because they are from mid-low tier US MD schools and not top 20 US MD schools.

I personally know of a number of programs that don't or at least no longer accept IMGs. Again though, this is a program specific thing. No one can give you a blanket statement like, "Don't apply to Nevada because EVERY program there hates IMGs." This has to do with who's applying to the programs and who the PDs are.

 

[shopsteward]

Another point to note is that a program which currently has no IMGs will not be familiar with the current immigration/visa requirements for non-US citizens, and will not be up to speed on all the paperwork required. This may be enough of an issue to create a barrier against considering IMGs - if a program can fill with sufficient good AMG candidates, there is no incentive for them to go through the extra trouble of sorting out immigration issues for someone who may be a good candidate but no better than the ones they can get from the USA.

Also, some of the programs which traditionally take IMGs may mainly take US citizens who have studied abroad, which again means no immigration issues for them to deal with. Others may have connections with particular parts of the world, for instance they have a Program Director who was an IMG and is familiar with the quality of medical students from his country and so more willing to consider them.

If there are med students from your university who are currently in residencies in the US, it would be a good idea to get in touch with them and ask for their advice - as well as giving you help in applying to their residency they could perhaps tell you where they got interviews, which might be an indicator of other places which might be interested in you.

If you are Czech or Slovak, you do of course have the right as EU citizens to work on equal terms with other EU citizens in the whole of the EU.

 

[Ronin786]

What has been mentioned in this thread is all definitely on point, but there is one scenario I'd like to add.

In the past when there were out-of-match positions, and even now with programs "all-out", some top-notch IMGs would prefer to take a sure thing rather than take a chance in the match. I spoke to one PD who said they'd rank some IMGs highly, but when they came to them telling them that they had a prematch offer he'd recommend they take that because he can't guarantee anything. So it can be expected that some of the more prestigious universities may place some percentage of IMGs now that the prematch is mostly a thing of the past. That probably won't be a significant percentage, but it is something to keep in mind.

Best thing when applying is to look at the resident list of these programs. Look at more recent classes (PGY1/2), especially with the changes that have happened and are happening with the match. If you've got money to burn then apply everywhere, if not then resident lists are a good estimator of what places give you the biggest chance of getting interviews.

 

[shiftingmirage]

While IMGs are more inclined to apply to IMG friendly programs, they absolutely apply to unfriendly programs as well, just not at the same number. I would also imagine some of the IMGs that apply to unfriendly programs have stellar stats, CVs, and still don't get IVs at unfriendly programs. There are programs that get sufficient interest from AMGs that they don't need to consider IMGs.

Regarding a list of IMG friendly programs - you can check some of the other forums out there. SDN is predominately AMGs, though obviously some IMGs as well. usmleforum is predominately IMGs with some FMGs. What you can do is go to the IMG forums and see where people are getting IVs at. You should strongly consider applying to that program. If you have a solid app, you will not need to apply to 200 programs, I would suggest 100 or so. Yes, lots of $, but do you want to have to go through the process again? Not a time to be frugal.

As you and your SO are applying to the same specialty, what I would do is divide the list of peds programs in half, and individually check program's websites and note the number of IMGs that are residents. If it is 0, I would not bother applying. It will be a pain, but totally worth it come match day next year.

Lastly, California has something called the California Letter. I don't know much about it, but it is the only state I know of that has an extra thing you have to do. Check out the requirements for the Letter. You may decide to not apply to any Cali programs and not have to bother researching them, especially if you can get a list of 100 or so.

 

[MadHopsMD]

You have a double handicap. IMG is one. But something even harder is immigration issues. H1B visa can cost 5Gs for a program, and J1 visa even though reasonable (around 800) -- they need a person who can handle paperwork. This is not always possible. My experience is that perhaps 40-50% of programs sponsor visas usually top school or lower tier schools. Mid-tier schools are fewer.

Also like someone mentioned, even though some schools take all IMG, those are Americans who studied abroad. They still might not take any international candidates due to the immigration hassle.

 

[dragonfly99]

that is a really interesting/helpful comment. I actually didn't realize it costs the program much money to do the visa/apply for one. I guess I assumed the money was on the applicants end, but the program also has to pay? Also they have to have some secretarial person dealing with the visa issues...which costs $ to pay that person...

 

[luCZky]

Unfortunately it's not like "program also has to pay" in fact it's much more like "only program has to pay". J-1 costs me like 100$, H1B is almost free (or maybe totally free) but from program side it's something like 5grands mentioned above for H1b and I guess at least few hundreds for J-1 but another few hundreds/thousands more for attorney/secretary. And the biggest issue is that they are forbidden to transfer these expenses to me. I don't know why it's forbidden by laws but it is. I have absolutely no problem to pay them back every single penny of these expenses but it seems undoable. Maybe it could be done by donation to the hospital (like charity donation) but I'm still not sure whether it is any violation either. And ofc not offering me an IV b/c of visa issue still means no chance to explain them that I'm going to pay that all back. I'm aware of that so I'm still looking forward to 1st of May for DV Lottery results which can change a lot on that issue :-/
But thanks... all of you. It seems that the biggest issue is solved since img-friendliness is not a country-by-country issue but program-by-program one. So the only way how to boost our chances up is to apply to every single program where we satisfy their program requirements. It's costly but still much cheaper than being unmatched.
Thanks once more.

 

[MadHopsMD]

But thanks... all of you. It seems that the biggest issue is solved since img-friendliness is not a country-by-country issue but program-by-program one. So the only way how to boost our chances up is to apply to every single program where we satisfy their program requirements. It's costly but still much cheaper than being unmatched.
Thanks once more.

Marrying an american will work as well.

 

[shiftingmirage]

Also a concern with needing a visa is the chances there will be delays. I was doing an elective and we had an intern join us for his first day at the hospital...in October. It was all because of visa issues. Imagine as a PD, one of your interns won't be available for 4 months, and my guess is there is limited notice that such a problem will arise.

 

[luCZky]

Also a concern with needing a visa is the chances there will be delays. I was doing an elective and we had an intern join us for his first day at the hospital...in October. It was all because of visa issues. Imagine as a PD, one of your interns won't be available for 4 months, and my guess is there is limited notice that such a problem will arise.

Visa delay is not an issue I'm concerned with at all. I don't want be rude so I'm not guessing which country that intern was from but it shouldn't be an issue here in Europe. Our embassies do not handle the visitor visas (we do not need them) so they don't have a lot of stuff to do so they are pretty quick. My fianceé has more then 3 months to solve this (she can start right after match) and I have more then 2. It should be pretty comfortable to solve this in time. And beside that we still can be there for 3 months without visas so despite the fact that we can't work at that time there should be some option like "hospital visitor"status or anything like this so we could join them for everything except the treatment... basically the same like med students do...I hope. But you're right that PD can't know about that and can't know what to expect from our "visa issues" so it would be a good idea to somehow tell him in advance that this isn't an issue at all although I don't know how. But still thx.

Marrying an american will work as well.

I think I don't have enough courage to suggest canceling our wedding to my fianceé

 

[gutonc]

And beside that we still can be there for 3 months without visas so despite the fact that we can't work at that time there should be some option like "hospital visitor"status or anything like this so we could join them for everything except the treatment... basically the same like med students do...I hope.

Let's just get this off the table. The answer is hell no, this will not happen.

 

[MadHopsMD]

Let's just get this off the table. The answer is hell no, this will not happen.

Actually, there are programs that offer B1/B2 visa( VISA link.) where you can do "observerships". You wont get paid though, but you would get a recommendation letter and experience that is an asset to programs. Use forums such as valuemd, where there are more people in your situation and will get more information regarding this issue.

 

[MadHopsMD]

Visa delay is not an issue I'm concerned with at all. I don't want be rude so I'm not guessing which country that intern was from but it shouldn't be an issue here in Europe.

You are right, EU countries have less issue. The countries that have issues are those that require you to go to embassies in the US or native land to get papers. For example in Canada, I get get a J1 visa in the mail. But if I was from an East African nation I would have to go to NYC and wait to get a visa from the embassy. More headaches, thus more delays.

 

[gutonc]

Actually, there are programs that offer B1/B2 visa( VISA link.) where you can do "observerships". You wont get paid though, but you would get a recommendation letter and experience that is an asset to programs. Use forums such as valuemd, where there are more people in your situation and will get more information regarding this issue.

That wasn't the question. The question was "if I match to a residency and don't get my J1/H1B in time for the first day, can I just show up and round while I'm on my (automatic) tourist visa? I promise I won't touch anybody.". That answer remains "hell no".

 

[MadHopsMD]

That wasn't the question. The question was "if I match to a residency and don't get my J1/H1B in time for the first day, can I just show up and round while I'm on my (automatic) tourist visa? I promise I won't touch anybody.". That answer remains "hell no".

Lol that is true. I knew a resident that did not do her final two weeks of ICU because paper work/visa mixup (in the middle of her residency). She ended up going on holiday. She was canadian btw. So it can happen to anyone.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Visa delay is not an issue I'm concerned with at all. I don't want be rude so I'm not guessing which country that intern was from but it shouldn't be an issue here in Europe. Our embassies do not handle the visitor visas (we do not need them) so they don't have a lot of stuff to do so they are pretty quick. My fianceé has more then 3 months to solve this (she can start right after match) and I have more then 2. It should be pretty comfortable to solve this in time.

In general, if you're applying for a J or H visa, you should be able to get one in 2-3 months. But remember that much of the processing is out of your hands, so no matter how hard you're willing to work on it, delays can happen. With a J visa, the hold up is usually the letter of need. With an H, it's much more complicated.

And beside that we still can be there for 3 months without visas so despite the fact that we can't work at that time there should be some option like "hospital visitor"status or anything like this so we could join them for everything except the treatment... basically the same like med students do...I hope.

As mentioned above, this is not a possibility. Without a visa you can't do anything, including orientation.

But you're right that PD can't know about that and can't know what to expect from our "visa issues" so it would be a good idea to somehow tell him in advance that this isn't an issue at all although I don't know how. But still thx.

If you need a visa, then it's an issue. Just because you think it's not going to be an issue for you, it might be.

Unfortunately it's not like "program also has to pay" in fact it's much more like "only program has to pay". J-1 costs me like 100$, H1B is almost free (or maybe totally free) but from program side it's something like 5grands mentioned above for H1b and I guess at least few hundreds for J-1 but another few hundreds/thousands more for attorney/secretary. And the biggest issue is that they are forbidden to transfer these expenses to me. I don't know why it's forbidden by laws but it is.

It's because visas are supposed to be because you can't find a legal US worker to fill the position, so employers are required to pay for visa processing. It's illegal for you to pay the costs in any way.

Maybe it could be done by donation to the hospital (like charity donation) but I'm still not sure whether it is any violation either.

And ofc not offering me an IV b/c of visa issue still means no chance to explain them that I'm going to pay that all back.

Both of thes visa fraud.

I'm aware of that so I'm still looking forward to 1st of May for DV Lottery results which can change a lot on that issue :-/
But thanks... all of you. It seems that the biggest issue is solved since img-friendliness is not a country-by-country issue but program-by-program one. So the only way how to boost our chances up is to apply to every single program where we satisfy their program requirements. It's costly but still much cheaper than being unmatched.
Thanks once more.[/quote]

 

[Lydia87]

Can anyone plz help me regarding getting an observership offer? I'm an IMG In dire need of USCE.. plz help!! 🙁