Weird Loan Question!

[DPTloans]

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Here is my weird loan question:
I'm going to graduate this year from a private three-year PT program. Although, I come from an immigrant family, they have worked hard and made enough money to be able to send me to college and then PT school without having to take out loans. I realize I am very lucky and try to pay it back by working as hard as I can in school.
However, I find that when I tell people, my family helped put me through school, they treat me differently. My family will not be supporting me once I graduate, so I need a job just like anybody else, but I'm worried that if my future employees know that I don't have loans, they won't let me negotiate my salary, or will treat me differently from other employees in some way.
For some reason, I'd like to pretend like I have some amount of loans. Can anyone tell me a bit about what the loans process has been like for them so that I sounds knowledgable on the topic?
Thanks!

 

[DjT3kN]

I'm sorry but why would your loans come up when negotiating your salary? That is an irrelevant topic to discuss, in my opinion. It's not like they will give you more/less money just because you have more/less loans to pay back. I should know... I used to be an employer. Also, why lie to your colleagues about having less or more loans? Just don't discuss it. You're pretty much putting up this facade that will hit you in the face later when the truth surfaces. Be yourself and not someone you think people will like. Good on you that family is willing to help supplement your education and it doesn't make you any less of a decent human being. Now if you're an incompetent and rude type of physical therapist.... there's not much I can say to save you here. Just be yourself and the right people will come into your life. Don't stress over what others will think, be yourself and nothing more.

 

[engmedpt]

This literally doesn't make sense. People negotiate based on need, confidence, factors and quality the employer places in the job description, average salary in the surrounding area, ect.

Loans aren't something that's brought up. In fact a debt burden is none of an employer's business.

Hope that helps. I start this fall and have no undergrad loans. That being said I will never be discussing my finances with employers.

 

[DPTloans]

I'm sorry but why would your loans come up when negotiating your salary? That is an irrelevant topic to discuss, in my opinion. It's not like they will give you more/less money just because you have more/less loans to pay back. I should know... I used to be an employer. Also, why lie to your colleagues about having less or more loans? Just don't discuss it. You're pretty much putting up this facade that will hit you in the face later when the truth surfaces. Be yourself and not someone you think people will like. Good on you that family is willing to help supplement your education and it doesn't make you any less of a decent human being. Now if you're an incompetent and rude type of physical therapist.... there's not much I can say to save you here. Just be yourself and the right people will come into your life. Don't stress over what others will think, be yourself and nothing more.

Things come up whether they are relevant or not. And this has come up in every internship I've had so far. Just looking for advice, not someone to tell me whether they think my question is relevant or not.

 

[aroszko]

Agreed, don't discuss loans or any other finances with employers or co-workers, its none of their business. Good for you for being able to get out debt free, negotiate just as anyone else would!

 

[DPTloans]

This literally doesn't make sense. People negotiate based on need, confidence, factors and quality the employer places in the job description, average salary in the surrounding area, ect.

Loans aren't something that's brought up. In fact a debt burden is none of an employer's business.

Hope that helps. I start this fall and have no undergrad loans. That being said I will never be discussing my finances with employers.

Things come up whether they are relevant or not. And this has come up in every internship I've had so far. Just looking for advice, not someone to tell me whether they think my question is relevant or not.

 

[callmecrazy]

Things come up whether they are relevant or not. And this has come up in every internship I've had so far. Just looking for advice, not someone to tell me whether they think my question is relevant or not.

Yes, loan burden in general is discussed a lot in this field. No one is forcing you to participate in that conversation and share personal financial information though. In an interview setting it is absolutely inappropriate. Pretending to have loans when you don't only makes you a liar, which your colleagues will dislike a whole lot more than someone without debt.

 

[engmedpt]

In an interview setting it is absolutely inappropriate

Agreed. Bringing them up is like asking the employer to question your motives and discriminate against hiring you (without telling you the real reason of course because I'm sure that has to be completely illegal. of course someone woudnt state that.) While this situation sounds awful I heard of someone who apparently on a post said that she/he would discriminate (not necessarily on SDN). I would just avoid it completely..............would you tell someone you have a massively unpaid mortgage as well in an interview? Heck no, that's personal

^I know they're different. Just making another personal comparison.

 

[DjT3kN]

Things come up whether they are relevant or not. And this has come up in every internship I've had so far. Just looking for advice, not someone to tell me whether they think my question is relevant or not.

And what I said earlier is the advice I am giving. Just as @callmecrazy mentions and I too have said, lying about your financial burden makes you a liar and will be easily disliked by others. ADVICE GIVEN... take it or leave it. So there is no point in you acting as if you're financially burden due to loans when you HAVE ZERO. Don't participate in the conversation, as well as no one is forcing you into it either. Just be a caring, competent, and likeable physical therapist. THAT'S ALL YOU NEED TO DO.

 

[DesertPT]

If you are seriously asking us whether or not you should lie in your first job interviews upon completion of a professional doctorate degree, I think you know what the answer to that question is going to be.

You are free to negotiate your salary without talking about student loans. If you are specifically asked about it, you should instinctively answer honestly, although I would be worried about an employer that insists on knowing your student loan balance during a job interview.

 

[engmedpt]

If you are seriously asking us whether or not you should lie in your first job interviews upon completion of a professional doctorate degree, I think you know what the answer to that question is going to be.

You are free to negotiate your salary without talking about student loans. If you are specifically asked about it, you should instinctively answer honestly, although I would be worried about an employer that insists on knowing your student loan balance during a job interview.

Totally agree on first part.

On second........is that even legal??? That's like asking how much someone still has on a mortgage before hiring and then possibly discriminating against them, isn't it?

 

[PTpro]

Agreed. It definitely shouldn't come up in an interview. As for co-worker conversations I wouldn't bring it up. But on the off chance someone one day convinces you to tell them how much debt you have I can't imagine them treating you different. I know I wouldn't. I don't wish student loan debt on anyone. If they do it's out of jealousy. Unless you rub it in people's faces you should be fine.

 

[DesertPT]

That's like asking how much someone still has on a mortgage before hiring and then possibly discriminating against them, isn't it?

More or less, yep.

 

[starrsgirl]

I guess if I were ever in a situation with an employer who offered me X in salary and Y as a loan payback bonus option, I would promptly renegotiate asking for the same salary but with the Y as a signing bonus or longevity bonus or something (i.e. payed after so many years) with no explanation. And/or, before accepting the offer, I would ask for the regulations (i.e. written documentation) on the loan payback first to read all the fine print. I've dealt with this issue a little bit with various scholarships and stipends. I have no loans/debt in school but that doesn't mean I can't get scholarships/stipends. I've found that some scholarships pay directly to you anyway so the issue is avoided. (In the same way, if the loan payback is payed directly to you then it's a null issue). If the amount has to be paid to the loan provider itself, then definitely renegotiate and try to turn it into another financial incentive. I don't think you have to explain what your finances look like. An employer can accept/not accept your re negotiation. You could also renegotiate a higher salary with no payback option. Often, a renegotiation like this is a win for the employer anyway.

Whether or not you have loans should NOT come up before the job offer. If someone in an interview says something like "yes, we know it's important to pay off your school debt", you can simply nod and agree that yes, school is expensive. In that way, you are not engaging in the conversation. You don't need to lay your financial history bare on the table.

Bottom line, is you should go into an interview with a minimum amount of salary in your mind. This is the amount you value yourself. If you set that bar first, then it's a pretty easy decision....if the employer doesn't offer you enough, you say no, if they do, they have met your required minimum and you know it has nothing to do with loans. If you value yourself lower and accept a lower salary, that burden is on you. My personal minimum salary figure when I graduate is not lower because I don't have loans. It's based on the value I feel I will bring to a company.

 

[DrRehab]

In terms of negotiation, this will not make any difference. 99% of places will not negotiate with you simply because you are in no place to negotiate as a new grad. You have no marketable skills or experience that makes you better than anyone else. I say this as a facility director, who when hiring people, are offered salaries placed purely on experience. It works out to placing people in categories, such as new grade (0-3 years), low-mid level (3-5 years), mid level at (5-8 years), experienced (8-12 years), and high grade (12+ years).

 

[DesertPT]

99% of places will not negotiate with you simply because you are in no place to negotiate as a new grad.

@jblil's new grad salary survey data doesn't agree.

See here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/starting-salary-for-dpt-new-grads.931151/

 

[DrRehab]

@jblil's new grad salary survey data doesn't agree.

See here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/starting-salary-for-dpt-new-grads.931151/

Thats nice, but as all know, people exaggerate and make claims all day long. I am speaking from the director view, as well as the policies in the multiple places I have worked. If a new grad asked to negotiate, we would practically laugh in their face because we could find 100 other PTs dying for the opportunity to be in their place. Im sure you could negotiate in areas with low PT supply, or if you have some other experience (CSCS certification), but dont expect to negotiate with zero leverage.

 

[DesertPT]

Thats nice, but as all know, people exaggerate and make claims all day long. I am speaking from the director view, as well as the policies in the multiple places I have worked. If a new grad asked to negotiate, we would practically laugh in their face because we could find 100 other PTs dying for the opportunity to be in their place. Im sure you could negotiate in areas with low PT supply, or if you have some other experience (CSCS certification), but dont expect to negotiate with zero leverage.

Perhaps it is area dependent as some areas are certainly a bit saturated, and I don't know about where you are, but where I live there are certainly not hundreds of new PTs so desperate for any job that they are willing to take whatever scraps you push off the table for them. If somebody low balls you you shouldn't just automatically take it on the assumption that if you don't you won't be able to feed your family or something. The point of the salary survey above is that new grads are successful at negotiating there salary up a bit more often than you'd think, not that they are always successful. I don't think dozens of people on there would just anonymously lie just for the heck of it. And we are only talking about a few thousand a year more here.

If I was a new grad and you offered me say $60k a year, and I explained that as a new grad I am in a tough position with a lot of debt to pay off and was looking for closer to $70k, and you then "laughed in my face", then that would instantly confirm for me that you were not somebody I wanted to work for anyway. I would expect a little more professional communication abilities from a potential employer than that.

And what would motivate you to pay me more for a CSCS? OCS or SCS maybe, but CSCS is pretty dime a dozen from what I've seen.

 

[callmecrazy]

Thats nice, but as all know, people exaggerate and make claims all day long. I am speaking from the director view, as well as the policies in the multiple places I have worked. If a new grad asked to negotiate, we would practically laugh in their face because we could find 100 other PTs dying for the opportunity to be in their place. Im sure you could negotiate in areas with low PT supply, or if you have some other experience (CSCS certification), but dont expect to negotiate with zero leverage.

So you're implying that the collective "we" are lying about whether or not we negotiated our salaries? What motivation would there even be for doing so? It says a lot that you feel your anecdotal experience trumps data collected from a few hundred of your peers.

 

[DPTErudition]

I don't think the people in the survey lied. I was able to negotiate a salary increase by several thousand with no experience. And if they laughed in my face, there are plenty of clinics that would have a more favorable reaction. As a director, you should be able to conceptualize that your way and experiences don't equate to some type of gold standard. The basis for being able to negotiate up? That could be anything from being prepared with information regarding typical salaries in the setting to hitting it off with the interviewer and them realizing the new grad would be an asset to their company.

 

[engmedpt]

In terms of negotiation, this will not make any difference. 99% of places will not negotiate with you simply because you are in no place to negotiate as a new grad. You have no marketable skills or experience that makes you better than anyone else. I say this as a facility director, who when hiring people, are offered salaries placed purely on experience. It works out to placing people in categories, such as new grade (0-3 years), low-mid level (3-5 years), mid level at (5-8 years), experienced (8-12 years), and high grade (12+ years).

So the fact that I do parttime work and went ahead and acquired some marketing skills on my own for myself which will continue forward throughout grad on an as needed basis wouldn't give me an edge? ....Really. If you work in a private outpatient clinic you're going to need grads that can do that.

I was significantly more tech savvy than most of the PTs I shadowed....actually showing them a thing or two simply because they hadn't done it before. Am I arrogant about it? No, not really, it makes total sense...they didn't grow up with computers as much and Ive been glued to it for assignments and collaboration for the last four years. I know my generation is growing up with a skillset that has been ingrained plain and simply.....from necessity as well as a social platform. Everything is moving to electronic documentation and apps will be popping up more and more for healthcare. Just wait. Im calling it. Already see start ups popping up. How exactly would skill sets like that not serve as leverage but an accelerated OCS title from a "residency" would? If anything I wouldn't care about the titles much unless they were gained through the actual normal time commitment (i.e. 3 years of working. at which point you aren't a new grad).

Are you serious on the CSCS?....you would place value on that? What about an excellent interview, collaboration and lobbying for APTA (yeah plan on that one), strong references of patient experiences and outcomes (from past CIs) posted on linkedin to give you an edge (yeah, planning on that one as well), and excellent people skills? This profession is just as much teaching as it is a science.

 

[engmedpt]

Thats nice, but as all know, people exaggerate and make claims all day long. I am speaking from the director view, as well as the policies in the multiple places I have worked. If a new grad asked to negotiate, we would practically laugh in their face because we could find 100 other PTs dying for the opportunity to be in their place. Im sure you could negotiate in areas with low PT supply, or if you have some other experience (CSCS certification), but dont expect to negotiate with zero leverage.

Obviously if you're a director then you have your own way of doing things but you should also be aware that it is infuriating that you would "laugh in a new grad's face." I understand if they didn't have leverage then you would say they didn't have room to negotiate, but not in that way.

While I'm about to start, all I can say is that I guess I'm glad I've been networking with every single clinic I've been to and created spreadsheets of contacts for when the time comes. My school's alumni network is a plus as well.

I guess I'm also aware that if I hit my rotations correctly and treat it like a 2 month interview then my CI might see the extra effort I put in and keep it in mind if I apply.