Weird question, but can I get disciplined or dismissed for this?

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circulus vitios said:
Getting him disciplined or kicked out of med school for "unprofessional" behavior is as bad as a bs sexual harassment story. Student loan debt is for real, bud. I'd burn her to the mother****ing ground.
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Except she would be truthfully reporting him for continuing known and documented behavior. He would be a lying piece of #%^*.

Both are mean and vindictive, but OP would mean and vindictive, lying piece of #%^*.
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sb247 said:
Except she would be truthfully reporting him for continuing known and documented behavior. He would be a lying piece of #%^*.

Both are mean and vindictive, but OP would mean and vindictive, lying piece of #%^*.
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But still a physician. Just sayin'
 
sb247 said:
Except she would be truthfully reporting him for continuing known and documented behavior. He would be a lying piece of #%^*.

Both are mean and vindictive, but OP would mean and vindictive, lying piece of #%^*.
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And?
 
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circulus vitios said:
Getting him disciplined or kicked out of med school for "unprofessional" behavior is as bad as a bs sexual harassment story. Student loan debt is for real, bud. I'd burn her to the mother****ing ground.
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Except OP was unprofessional. She's not the one making anything up. And if you're seriously putting unprofessionalism on the same level as sexual harassment, I worry about you.
 
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I'm not sure a medical student has a professional obligation to reply to a student about a non existent club at all. Emails from the dean, that's a stupid one to blow off. Emails about classes, patients, etc.- yes.
Clubs, no.
I changed my mind.
Tell her that her constant harassment is interfering with your education and to kindly harass someone else about a non essential class club.
 
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And if anyone from the administration asks about it, that should be your response. You're working too hard to concern yourself with non essential extracurricular pursuits. If they pursue it with a followup, ask if they read all their email from people they don't know. It's perfectly OK to be an a$$hole physician, there are many.
 
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Ismet said:
Except OP was unprofessional. She's not the one making anything up. And if you're seriously putting unprofessionalism on the same level as sexual harassment, I worry about you.
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A medical student has no professional obligation to another medical student.
 
DermViser said:
A medical student has no professional obligation to another medical student.
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Except that the OP volunteered for a leadership position and then shirked the responsibilities of the position. And further, ignored the efforts of other students to take over that responsibility, frustrating their efforts.

I'm not saying this is a huge deal, but I don't see how anyone can say the OP isn't in the wrong here
 
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southernIM said:
Except that the OP volunteered for a leadership position and then shirked the responsibilities of the position. And further, ignored the efforts of other students to take over that responsibility, frustrating their efforts.

I'm not saying this is a huge deal, but I don't see how anyone can say the OP isn't in the wrong here
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I agree it was wrong, more bc it's a nuisance. As a student, I would have just gone to the physician sponsor of the group to get the info I needed. That being said, it doesn't merit an MSPE mention of unprofessionalism - which can (will) be overblown. This scenario is not like the guy who graduated from Case Western.
 
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DermViser said:
I agree it was wrong, more bc it's a nuisance. As a student, I would have just gone to the physician sponsor of the group to get the info I needed. That being said, it doesn't merit an MSPE mention of unprofessionalism - which can (will) be overblown. This scenario is not like the guy who graduated from Case Western.
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I agree. I just don't think we should be overly forgiving of the OPs pretty crappy behavior. He needs to learn some life lessons from this event - but it shouldn't have any potentially career altering implications for him.
 
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southernIM said:
Except that the OP volunteered for a leadership position and then shirked the responsibilities of the position. And further, ignored the efforts of other students to take over that responsibility, frustrating their efforts.

I'm not saying this is a huge deal, but I don't see how anyone can say the OP isn't in the wrong here
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He's in the wrong, but threatening to take him to the Dean for lack of professionalism is seriously ****ed up.
 
southernIM said:
I agree. I just don't think we should be overly forgiving of the OPs pretty crappy behavior. He needs to learn some life lessons from this event - but it shouldn't have any potentially career altering implications for him.
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I agree. Avoidant personality will be very caustic for him esp. in residency where program faculty expect "professional" behaviors like answering emails w/in a reasonable amt. of time, turning in forms on time, completing medical records and dictations, on time etc. OP should make an attempt to learn these things now and fast.
 
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DermViser said:
A medical student has no professional obligation to another medical student.
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Why not? I do think the girl was overreacting and the threat was unnecessary (although I wouldn't be surprised if she was just empty threatening him in order to provoke a faster response), but we are adults in a professional school who will be physicians in a few years. OP took on the responsibility of the group, didn't put in the required effort to keep it going, and avoided responding to the person who wants to take it over and bring it back. IMO if you take on the responsibility of a group, even if it's a "meaningless" student group, you have a professional obligation to either actually fulfill your responsibilities or pass it on to someone more capable. Maybe it's not a professional obligation to another student, it's more of a professional obligation to the school-associated student group. He was also responsible for some material associated with the group, which belonged to the group, not to him, which he left in his locker and is most likely in the trash now. In the big scheme of things, these little things probably don't matter, but you have to wonder what OP will do when he has real responsibilities.

DermViser said:
I agree it was wrong, more bc it's a nuisance. As a student, I would have just gone to the physician sponsor of the group to get the info I needed. That being said, it doesn't merit an MSPE mention of unprofessionalism - which can (will) be overblown. This scenario is not like the guy who graduated from Case Western.
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And I would agree if this were the only instance of him avoiding emails. A fellow med student reporting him about a club would not make it into the MSPE. But there is clearly a general professionalism concern as this has happened at least twice now. OP still has another year before that gets written, so if he continues this trajectory, it could definitely be a problem.

Also, not every student group has a faculty advisor who knows what's going on. You usually have a faculty advisor listed, but that's just for the paperwork. Often the students run the show. And if the girl contacted the faculty member who in turn contacted OP, and OP continued avoiding the emails, then THAT would be an even bigger professionalism problem.
 
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Ismet said:
Why not? I do think the girl was overreacting and the threat was unnecessary (although I wouldn't be surprised if she was just empty threatening him in order to provoke a faster response), but we are adults in a professional school who will be physicians in a few years. OP took on the responsibility of the group, didn't put in the required effort to keep it going, and avoided responding to the person who wants to take it over and bring it back. IMO if you take on the responsibility of a group, even if it's a "meaningless" student group, you have a professional obligation to either actually fulfill your responsibilities or pass it on to someone more capable. Maybe it's not a professional obligation to another student, it's more of a professional obligation to the school-associated student group. He was also responsible for some material associated with the group, which belonged to the group, not to him, which he left in his locker and is most likely in the trash now. In the big scheme of things, these little things probably don't matter, but you have to wonder what OP will do when he has real responsibilities.



And I would agree if this were the only instance of him avoiding emails. A fellow med student reporting him about a club would not make it into the MSPE. But there is clearly a general professionalism concern as this has happened at least twice now. OP still has another year before that gets written, so if he continues this trajectory, it could definitely be a problem.

Also, not every student group has a faculty advisor who knows what's going on. You usually have a faculty advisor listed, but that's just for the paperwork. Often the students run the show. And if the girl contacted the faculty member who in turn contacted OP, and OP continued avoiding the emails, then THAT would be an even bigger professionalism problem.
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Thank you Tracy Flick:


j.k.
 
DermViser said:
I agree it was wrong, more bc it's a nuisance. As a student, I would have just gone to the physician sponsor of the group to get the info I needed. That being said, it doesn't merit an MSPE mention of unprofessionalism - which can (will) be overblown. This scenario is not like the guy who graduated from Case Western.
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@DermViser, what happened there?
 
Ismet said:
Hey now :p
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I'm kidding, of course. When I think of the person high on their horse, who would report a fellow student for professionalism to the medical school (not specifically the OP's scenario), I think of Tracy Flick in the movie Election.

That being said, I think the OP should be aware there are very much people in medical school and even in residency who will be more than happy to throw you under the bus if you give them a reason. Solution: Don't give them a reason.
 
DermViser said:
I'm kidding, of course. When I think of the person high on their horse, who would report a fellow student for professionalism to the medical school (not specifically the OP's scenario), I think of Tracy Flick in the movie Election.

That being said, I think the OP should be aware there are very much people in medical school and even in residency who will be more than happy to throw you under the bus if you give them a reason. Solution: Don't give them a reason.
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I know you're kidding :p And I'm not really condoning what the girl did. But I do think what OP did/avoided doing is a concern. And I think we generally agree on that point.
 
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This is why you don't join clubs and all that other crap in med school. Nothing to gain and always something to lose.
 
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operaman said:
Closing statement for your email to the dean:

"She's a kind person with a good heart, but maybe the stress and loneliness of medical school is getting to her. I don't want to see anything bad happen to her, but I hope she can get the help she needs."
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Yes, by all means, top off your current problems by adding a libel and slander suit to the mix. /sarcasm
 
Mass Effect said:
Yes, by all means, top off your current problems by adding a libel and slander suit to the mix. /sarcasm
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How is @operaman's statement libel/slander? It's a concerned student looking out for his fellow student for the good of the profession.:p
 
If the person was that b*tchy to bring up professionalism with another student they probably would honestly throw libel in there if you followed operaman's scenario
 
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Mass Effect said:
Yes, by all means, top off your current problems by adding a libel and slander suit to the mix. /sarcasm
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Well, slander is a notoriously difficult thing to prove. Most states require slander/libel to be both 1) untrue and 2) told with malicious intent. Proving both is hard, especially since OP would only reference encounters where there was no written record. It would be his word against hers. Malicious intent is also difficult, especially if the written emails he sends the dean indicate that he doesn't want her to get in trouble etc., just that he wants her to stop harassing him and hopes she gets whatever help she needs.

The reality is that no lawyer would take her case on contingency (unless OP is truly loaded) so she'll have to pay thousands in legal fees out of her own pocket for a very slim chance of recovering anything. Remember: she would also need to show that she had suffered damages in some way, and if nothing happens besides her feeling like an idiot, well, that's very difficult to quantify. In reality, this goes nowhere. Administration will want it gone and the last thing they want is a lawsuit. Suzzy MS2 will get a stern talking to about "no means no" and that will be the end of it.

While I've never done this exact plan, I have done a few similar things when threatened and I've always found that the other side backs down immediately once they themselves are threatened in any way. It's easy for Suzzy MS2 to leverage a career-damaging professionalism violation, but quite another to be facing one her self for sexual harassment and even possible expulsion if she continues to harass the OP. Once he plays the card, she will fold. 99% sure. And if she doesn't, she will make herself look crazy as she tries to defend herself. Win-win.
 
operaman said:
The reality is that no lawyer would take her case on contingency (unless OP is truly loaded) so she'll have to pay thousands in legal fees out of her own pocket for a very slim chance of recovering anything. Remember: she would also need to show that she had suffered damages in some way, and if nothing happens besides her feeling like an idiot, well, that's very difficult to quantify. In reality, this goes nowhere. Administration will want it gone and the last thing they want is a lawsuit. Suzzy MS2 will get a stern talking to about "no means no" and that will be the end of it.

While I've never done this exact plan, I have done a few similar things when threatened and I've always found that the other side backs down immediately once they themselves are threatened in any way. It's easy for Suzzy MS2 to leverage a career-damaging professionalism violation, but quite another to be facing one her self for sexual harassment and even possible expulsion if she continues to harass the OP. Once he plays the card, she will fold. 99% sure. And if she doesn't, she will make herself look crazy as she tries to defend herself. Win-win.
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Operaman, I like you.
 
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operaman said:
Well, slander is a notoriously difficult thing to prove. Most states require slander/libel to be both 1) untrue and 2) told with malicious intent. Proving both is hard, especially since OP would only reference encounters where there was no written record. It would be his word against hers. Malicious intent is also difficult, especially if the written emails he sends the dean indicate that he doesn't want her to get in trouble etc., just that he wants her to stop harassing him and hopes she gets whatever help she needs.

The reality is that no lawyer would take her case on contingency (unless OP is truly loaded) so she'll have to pay thousands in legal fees out of her own pocket for a very slim chance of recovering anything. Remember: she would also need to show that she had suffered damages in some way, and if nothing happens besides her feeling like an idiot, well, that's very difficult to quantify. In reality, this goes nowhere. Administration will want it gone and the last thing they want is a lawsuit. Suzzy MS2 will get a stern talking to about "no means no" and that will be the end of it.

While I've never done this exact plan, I have done a few similar things when threatened and I've always found that the other side backs down immediately once they themselves are threatened in any way. It's easy for Suzzy MS2 to leverage a career-damaging professionalism violation, but quite another to be facing one her self for sexual harassment and even possible expulsion if she continues to harass the OP. Once he plays the card, she will fold. 99% sure. And if she doesn't, she will make herself look crazy as she tries to defend herself. Win-win.
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I think you have a very tenuous grasp on reality, frankly. An email such as the one you suggest would damage the student's reputation in a profession where one can't afford to have their reputation tarnished for such things as implied mental instability, harassment, and stalking. You think the school is going to just brush off such an accusation? We're not in grade school anymore. This kind of thing is what ends up in Dean's letters and ends your chances for residency, if you're even allowed to continue without a psychological evaluation. I don't know of a soul who would lay down and take it and not fight back with one hell of a legal defense. And you also greatly underestimate the power of common sense. The story simply isn't logical and plenty of people will see through it. All they have to do is nail down the OP on a specific date and time one of these so-called incidents happened and if the girl was somewhere else that she can prove, the OP is screwed, not to mention the fact that this "buddy" he trusts could easily roll over when lawyers start breathing down his neck. People are successfully sued for slander every single day and the guilty ones who get away with it are the ones who are loaded and can afford the sleaziest lawyers in America to fight their battle for them. Bottom line, your posts are nothing short of irresponsible and if the OP takes your suggestion, he is asking to not only be dismissed but to face one hell of a career-ending lawsuit on top of it.
 
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Mass Effect said:
I think you have a very tenuous grasp on reality, frankly. An email such as the one you suggest would damage the student's reputation in a profession where one can't afford to have their reputation tarnished for such things as implied mental instability, harassment, and stalking. You think the school is going to just brush off such an accusation? We're not in grade school anymore. This kind of thing is what ends up in Dean's letters and ends your chances for residency, if you're even allowed to continue without a psychological evaluation. I don't know of a soul who would lay down and take it and not fight back with one hell of a legal defense. And you also greatly underestimate the power of common sense. The story simply isn't logical and plenty of people will see through it. All they have to do is nail down the OP on a specific date and time one of these so-called incidents happened and if the girl was somewhere else that she can prove, the OP is screwed, not to mention the fact that this "buddy" he trusts could easily roll over when lawyers start breathing down his neck. People are successfully sued for slander every single day and the guilty ones who get away with it are the ones who are loaded and can afford the sleaziest lawyers in America to fight their battle for them. Bottom line, your posts are nothing short of irresponsible and if the OP takes your suggestion, he is asking to not only be dismissed but to face one hell of a career-ending lawsuit on top of it.
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Sounds like we may have to agree to disagree.

Frankly, this should end up in MS2's dean's letter and lord knows I would not want her to be my fellow resident! Writing a believable story that fits the timeline is quite simple. I may exaggerate slightly here with some of my examples, but the general idea of reporting her for harassing him is absolutely what I would do. Where I would tone it down would be the insinuations of romantic interest and I would be careful to phrase my written comments in such a way that keeps me clear (ie. "I'm not sure why she keeps harassing me. After she kept coming by my study carrel in the library, I made it clear that I'm not interested and that I have a serious girlfriend and especially don't feel comfortable working with her on this student group thing. I've tried ignoring her emails hoping she would get the hint, but she keeps emailing me. I don't know if it's unrequited romantic interest or simply her being lonely and stressed with school. I just know I am feeling uncomfortable and would like her to stop contacting me.")

Child's play.

I have to say, every time I've done anything remotely like this, people around me say it's nuts and talk about all the trouble I could get in, but inevitably it never happens because the person coming after me to begin with never expects to be playing defense. People who report fellow students for "severe professionalism" violations simply because they didn't reply to emails about a student interest group are not going to be comfortable under fire. They will cave. Every. Time.

The defamation suit is a nonstarter. MS2 will have to foot 2-3 years of legal bills out of her own pocket for a case that will hinge on whether or not she can prove she never ever went by the library (or wherever OP wants to say she harassed him that is also a place she goes all the time anyhow). When deposed, you plead ignorance as to specifics, especially since any deposition would come 1-2 years after any alleged incident. Besides, he has emails from her, one of which even threatens to report him to the dean!

Yup, I'd make my defense a good offense. And I would sleep like a baby.
 
Mass Effect said:
The email he has threatens to report him to the dean for the situation with the club, which by the way, is backed up by the OP's personal history with the club and the school/emails. That's it. All this crap about her harassing him in the library, etc. is just asking for trouble. Frankly, any attorney who got his degree from somewhere other than a Cracker Jack box will slice and dice the OP with one swing. Plead ignorant to the specifics? LOL, yeah, never gonna fly. If you accuse someone of stalking, you damn well better have specifics and if you don't, you damn well better be prepared to pay the consequences for the accusation. You can't just say whatever you want, damage someone's reputation and destroy their career, then just shrug your shoulders, smile and say "but I don't remember when it happened" and expect to get away with it. This is the fantasy of a third grader, not a grown adult.
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MS2 is that you?
 
DermViser said:
Ah, I just missed his post. Yes, it seems like Senor S fits the bill based on his quite postal reaction.
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Did you even read this guy's post? He admits to having done something like this multiple times. The girl in the OP, although obviously a neurotic freak, isn't lying; the OP, if he follows operaman's plan, would be. And operaman certainly has it all thought out, fully researched and everything. If he had any sense, he'd delete all his posts in this thread.
 
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Señor S said:
Did you even read this guy's post? He admits to having done something like this multiple times. The girl in the OP, although obviously a neurotic freak, isn't lying; the OP, if he follows operaman's plan, would be. And operaman certainly has it all thought out, fully researched and everything. If he had any sense, he'd delete all his posts in this thread.
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Where did he say he did the exact plan? He only defended himself WHEN THREATENED. You want him to cower in fear due to another student? Yeah, that's the kind of doctor I want.
 
operaman you kinda seem like one of those "I want to president of AMSA and then the AMA" types to me.
 
PL198 said:
operaman you kinda seem like one of those "I want to president of AMSA and then the AMA" types to me.
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Actually the complete opposite. Have you seen the officers of AMSA, esp. of the national AMSA organization?
 
Señor S said:
Did you even read this guy's post? He admits to having done something like this multiple times. The girl in the OP, although obviously a neurotic freak, isn't lying; the OP, if he follows operaman's plan, would be. And operaman certainly has it all thought out, fully researched and everything. If he had any sense, he'd delete all his posts in this thread.
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In my defense, my similar actions were different enough and removed enough from this thread and all things medical that I'm not worried. In only one case did I have to go forward with things; the others the people backed down on the mere suggestion that they would face risk themselves.

The girl in the OP is beyond neurotic freak; she's directly threatening the OP and his career in much the same way my hypotheticals would threaten hers.
 
DermViser said:
Where did he say he did the exact plan? He only defended himself WHEN THREATENED. You want him to cower in fear due to another student? Yeah, that's the kind of doctor I want.
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No, what I want from my doctor is someone who isn't a vengeful, lying third grader, hellbent on revenge at the expense of the truth. I want someone who isn't going to maliciously lie to get back at people, someone who owns up to his responsibility in answering emails, and when threatened, deals with the person with the TRUTH, not fabrications that sound like they were invented by a soap-opera-addicted grade-schooler. He's endorsing lying, even in a legal deposition. If that's the kind of doctor you want, then I think that says just as much about you as it does operaman.

Oh, and since you missed it...

I have to say, every time I've done anything remotely like this, people around me say it's nuts and talk about all the trouble I could get in, but inevitably it never happens because the person coming after me to begin with never expects to be playing defense.
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operaman said:
In my defense, my similar actions were different enough and removed enough from this thread and all things medical that I'm not worried. In only one case did I have to go forward with things; the others the people backed down on the mere suggestion that they would face risk themselves.

The girl in the OP is beyond neurotic freak; she's directly threatening the OP and his career in much the same way my hypotheticals would threaten hers.
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If it's anything like what you described, it's still slander, as you must know. Delete it before one of your classmates finds it.
 
DermViser said:
Where did he say he did the exact plan? He only defended himself WHEN THREATENED. You want him to cower in fear due to another student? Yeah, that's the kind of doctor I want.
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I want doctors to be reasonably honest, and slandering somebody in response to an ostensibly true accusation is about as dishonest as you can get.
 
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DermViser said:
Actually the complete opposite. Have you seen the officers of AMSA, esp. of the national AMSA organization?
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I personally know one of them.. they do shady stuff all the time and then kiss ass their way out. if I did the same stuff, I'd be sitting in some administrators office somewhere.
 
Señor S said:
I want him to be reasonably honest, and slandering somebody in response to an ostensibly true accusation is about as dishonest as you can get.
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Unfortunately, without the actual OP's emails I can't formulate a really good, airtight, 100% non slanderous plan. Hopefully her original emails would be friendly enough that I could construe them as flirtatious if read with the right tone; with any luck she used exclamation points and emoticons! :) Pretty easy to turn it into ignoring what to the OP were unwanted romantic advances from a harassing underclassman without even adding some fictitious incidents.

Jazzing it up a little bit would be fun though!

Oh, and seriously, not worried about my posts here -- SOOOOOO completely unrelated from anything I've ever done. The underlying principles are similar, but the stories completely different. It's like how The Odyssey and Star Wars are basically the same story, yet completely different.
 
PL198 said:
I personally know one of them.. they do shady stuff all the time and then kiss ass their way out. if I did the same stuff, I'd be sitting in some administrators office somewhere.
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The ones who go for AMSA officer positions are the same douches who go for student govt. in high school. It's to put their name on something for the CV. Which I'm perfectly fine with, however, they then cloak it in actually wanting to change things, when they have no intention of doing so. The brownnosing begins early on for them and do it for perceived advantage to get a residency.

They SAY they want to represent students when it comes to bringing up concerns re: grading policy, etc. but in actuality, it's more just a way for them to continue to kiss butt of administrators. They lie and speak the company line officially the entire way, right up until MS-4 to get what they want. You can do a lot when you can waste money from the med school's credit card to go for AMSA conventions.
 
And with that, this thread has hit 100 replies.

Now we just need Ark to come in here and say something about "bishes" and this ought to hit 200+

:)
 
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