Well damn

[hoyden]

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Young college students will never stop studying for the MCAT. They will always strive to have the title of doctor. I believe 18 year old kids don't have any concept of the financial impact of medical school, residency, increasing taxes, and decreasing physician salaries.

Think back to when you were in college. Why did you want to become a physician?

I believe those reasons are still very prevelant. Go to the premedical forum to understand what I mean.

This is difficult to grasp for some who are already physicians.

Absolutely NOT true. My son is almost 18 and he applied to engineering school instead of premed exactly because of this particular crap called obamacare.
His reasoning was - if in 4 years something changes, I can still add some courses, take MCAT and apply to medschool afterwards. I think NOW this won't happen at all and I support his decision wholeheartedly, though if he would pursue the medical doctor path he would be the third generation of physicians in my family.

But taking at least 12 years of hard work out of somebody's life and starting professional life with 300K in debt is just not worth it.

 

[partydoc]

As a young professional you would not consider moving for higher pay, better career growth, or an overall better standard of living? I would. I would gian my degree/training and move for best opporunities no matter if it were medicine, engineering, science, business etc. etc.

For example, why work US hours for Can. pay when you could have Can. pay for Can. hours?

I would. My parents left their country for better opportunities and came here. I can't imagine that I wouldn't as well.

Absolutely NOT true. My son is almost 18 and he applied to engineering school instead of premed exactly because of this particular crap called obamacare.
His reasoning was - if in 4 years something changes, I can still add some courses, take MCAT and apply to medschool afterwards. I think NOW this won't happen at all and I support his decision wholeheartedly, though if he would pursue the medical doctor path he would be the third generation of physicians in my family.

But taking at least 12 years of hard work out of somebody's life and starting professional life with 300K in debt is just not worth it.

That's your son. His view on it is different because he has a physician for a parent. There are plenty of kids out there with blue collar parents who would go to med school even if it meant making 100k/ year.
The debt incurred is so far away its almost not even a factor. When I started school I had no idea what the debt I will be in really meant. And after your first year its pretty much too late to drop out and do something else.

Think about PhD's, average tenure track professor salary is around 100k. They do undergrad, grad school, and fellowships and often times don't get their first real jobs until their early 30's (much like physicians). Yet, there's plenty of demand for that.
I also know plenty of PhD's making less thank 60k/ year.

I think there will always be a demand for med school even if salaries drop substantially.

 

[hoyden]

I would. My parents left their country for better opportunities and came here. I can't imagine that I wouldn't as well.




That's your son. His view on it is different because he has a physician for a parent. There are plenty of kids out there with blue collar parents who would go to med school even if it meant making 100k/ year.
The debt incurred is so far away its almost not even a factor. When I started school I had no idea what the debt I will be in really meant. And after your first year its pretty much too late to drop out and do something else.


I think there will always be a demand for med school even if salaries drop substantially.

I doubt it. And it is not the salary as the main reason but the balance of input/output altogether.

My son is reasoning so clearly because he is an immigrant himself - he came here when he was 10 and he has seen all the hardships I have had to go through to become anesthesiologist again.
I do not have any debt for medschool, however.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I would. My parents left their country for better opportunities and came here. I can't imagine that I wouldn't as well.




That's your son. His view on it is different because he has a physician for a parent. There are plenty of kids out there with blue collar parents who would go to med school even if it meant making 100k/ year.
The debt incurred is so far away its almost not even a factor. When I started school I had no idea what the debt I will be in really meant. And after your first year its pretty much too late to drop out and do something else.

Think about PhD's, average tenure track professor salary is around 100k. They do undergrad, grad school, and fellowships and often times don't get their first real jobs until their early 30's (much like physicians). Yet, there's plenty of demand for that.
I also know plenty of PhD's making less thank 60k/ year.

I think there will always be a demand for med school even if salaries drop substantially.

That's because kids have no idea how hard it is to pay back $300,000 in debt earning $250K with a 40 percent effective tax rate. This is evident by all the student loans and the looming trillion dollar student loan default issue.

 

[partydoc]

That's because kids have no idea how hard it is to pay back $300,000 in debt earning $250K with a 40 percent effective tax rate. This is evident by all the student loans and the looming trillion dollar student loan default issue.

So should young 20 somethings be allowed to take out those loans if they don't really understand the full implications?

I didn't really understand until I made an excel sheet and started running the numbers.

But hey, I'm going to be a doctor, so I guess it'll all work itself out.

 

[RapidSequence]

I also think the brain drain thing is a myth. You've got 40k people applying to < 20k spots....there's surely a significant buffer of more-than-qualified folks just standing in line. Not to mention that the degree of competitiveness for med school in socialized European countries puts US admission standards to shame.

I have to agree, there is no way there will ever be a lack of applicants BUT you have to see what's going on out there. Right now established doctors are leaving the clinical realm for practice management, pharmaceuticals and consulting. You won't see a lack of people entering med school but you'll see a bunch of people in there 50's & 60's ask themselves is the increased liability, stress, and government interference of clinical medicine worth it.

At the end of the day the only constant is change. Still, policy makers are overlooking a crucial point and that is the HUGE demoralizing effect decreasing pay, increasing gov't/hospital regulation, and suffocating debt has on the physicians you hope will cooperate with your change in healthcare policy.

I personally could care less about $$. I only care about helping people and not working like a dog - unfortunately I think helping the patient will become harder and the hours expected of us are increasing, for a decreasing amount of pay.

On paper ObamaCare looks great, how it plays out... That's a different story.

 

[yappy]

Brain drains do not refer to unfilled professional school applicants or graduates. It refers to people getting their "world class" post high school education and leaving the country for better jobs/opportunities in countries that are better positioned to grow economically in the future. I can see this happening if said medical graduate has skills that are in high demand.

I have to agree, there is no way there will ever be a lack of applicants BUT you have to see what's going on out there. Right now established doctors are leaving the clinical realm for practice management, pharmaceuticals and consulting. You won't see a lack of people entering med school but you'll see a bunch of people in there 50's & 60's ask themselves is the increased liability, stress, and government interference of clinical medicine worth it.

 

[doctor712]

I think medstudentquest is correct on this. From residency, offers range between 180-240ish, and usually for 4 days of work. Add some private practice with that, and you are making 300k easily. Remember that psychs also don't have a great deal of overhead-they dont' need equipment, nurses, etc. Just need a secretary/biller and you are good to good. Also, they dont' charge 65$/session. You are thinking therapists. Psychs in pp usually charge around $100/15 minute med check, around 300$/hr. For those working in wealthier areas, they can charge even more. I know because even though I'm not in psych, I was interested in psych as a student and interviewed at some pretty good places, and became acquainted with the stats.

Interventional cards makes significantly more than 225k. Maybe in the middle of Manhattan or something due to saturation, but otherwise salary is much more than that.

Agreed, some Psychs make 300$ an hour, and some make 100$ an hour. MDs, not PhD/therapists. Why? That's what I pay mine. (without using insurance).

And yes, Intvl Cards can make SERIOUS money. but out of Fellowship, 3 of my friends and co-authors down here, in SoFlo, got offered a salary starting with a 2... (academics not PP). So, these numbers may be on either side of range, but they exist and are very real.

D712

 

[Monty Python]

Yep, exactly. If I was an employer, I would absolutely drop the healthcare coverage. So I guess in theory we have become a single payer system with the highest medical education costs in the world, and with the highest liability in the world.

Why do i see the exodus of thousands of older docs? Where does that leave us as younger docs?

Precisely. Last week I went for my annual skin cancer checkup. My dermo said he's taking down his shingle for good if it passes. Orthopod in my church choir said the same thing. Their frustration level with the entire bill and all it's intrusions into private practice is patently obvious.

 

[IlDestriero]

Precisely. Last week I went for my annual skin cancer checkup. My dermo said he's taking down his shingle for good if it passes. Orthopod in my church choir said the same thing. Their frustration level with the entire bill and all it's intrusions into private practice is patently obvious.

They'll wait a few more years to take advantage of the short term increase in insured patients though.

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"The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is."

 

[BLADEMDA]

They'll wait a few more years to take advantage of the short term increase in insured patients though.

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“The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.”

We may see a short term "boom" from the law in terms of revenue in the next 12-36 months until the "hammer" falls on us.