Western Atlantic University School of Medicine - Thoughts/Experiences?

[stethan]

In the Caribbean, accreditation was never a requirement until 2023, now it has been reversed for now. Email the ECFMG yourself or visit below. Don't take my word for it.

Intealth: Recognized Accreditation Policy

www.ecfmg.org

This implementation will not affect:

An individual’s eligibility for ECFMG Certification. IMGs can continue to apply for and pursue ECFMG Certification, even if their medical school currently does not meet the requirements of the Recognized Accreditation Policy. IMGs can pursue ECFMG Certification as long as their medical school meets ECFMG’s current requirements.

Now if a school like WAUSOM isn't recognized by the ECFMG in the first place, the graduate is scre**d regardless of any accreditation once they need the ECFMG. But CAAM-HP is ultimately a scam; again in my opinion. But accreditation does matter for schools and students seeking Title IV, which many do. But not for ECFMG registration leading to licensure.

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[8jsi37]

Candidacy is really just the entry to accreditation. From my experience, it a matter of providing documentation of a functioning school. You and I can start a school, StudentDoc School of Medicine, provide documentation, and can probably get candidacy before a site visit. It isn't true accreditation, that's true. Caam-hp should actually remove that stage altogether, but that's another discussion. Caam-hp is a bit of a racket itself since it's schools governing themselves, but that's also another topic. But what can you do, that's all there is for some countries. ACCM seems way less corrupt and schools appear to be running to them.

I do somewhat agree with the big 3 statement as it has been the norm for years, but the big 3 have their own big issues. Adtalem (Devry) is definitely not innocent in any way lol.

Yeah it's just an entry point in getting accredited but nothing substantial yet. I agree, CAAM-HP is corrupt and so is every other accrediting body. It sucks that a lot of students don't understand this part when choosing a med school in the caribbean (but honestly, if they live in the US, its better to exhaust all of your options before going down here).

I agree that the big 3 isnt perfect and they have their own issue as I am attending one right now. But you gotta ask, which caribbean school is "perfect" or close to that? There really no "perfect" one. I think the most appealing thing about the big 3 is that if you graduate from one, you deal with a lot fewer headache and BS compared to a random carib school. They take care a lot of things that a student wouldn't really think of. Accreditation is almost a non-issue but of course the big 3 has had their share of concerning accreditation. I doubt anything "bad" will happen. They are also approved in all 50 states if someone is looking to practice in all 50 states with California being one of the more difficult state. I think the big 3 have their own issues, but if you can make it to graduation, you'll deal with a lot fewer BS. However, this is contingent on IF the student can make it to graduation. IMO, the biggest issue with the big 3 is the insane attrition rate especially during the 1st and 2nd semester. By the time I finished basic sciences, I lost about 40-50% of my class. Overall, the better option is going to a US MD or DO school if you plan on practicing in the US.

 

[future Dr. Brandon]

unfortunately for the current students at WAUSM they are going to have to wait it out. Since their school is not accredited no school is going to accept their transfer credits and they would have to start over from term 1. It's not a great situation to be in however, I believe WAUSM will eventually figure it out, they have to, however how it's going to impact the students in the future is anyone's guess. I'm very concerned about the students that have passed 5th term and are doing clinical rotations and just waiting on the step 1. The further you get away from that information the less likely you are to pass the exam. My hope is that this is a bump in the road and eventually the waters calm and students will be fine, but it's not ideal to say the least.

 

[future Dr. Brandon]

That's really what I meant. CAAM-HP is running a racket in my opinion. Not ACCM, from what it appears. There's a few articles about CAAM-HP including some sites popping up like CAAM-HP Report Site

But whether that matters until the ECFMG clamps down, in terms of accreditation, if it's not ACCM, it's CAAM-HP. At least for now, neither is a "requirement." This all explains why SGU said to H with both, and worked with their local government to get WFME certification.

SGU was going to lose its accreditation which is why it jumped to GMDC. They were already on probation, and they were not going to be able to clean up all of the issues that CAMMHP asked them to do in time.

 

[stethan]

SGU was going to lose its accreditation which is why it jumped to GMDC. They were already on probation, and they were not going to be able to clean up all of the issues that CAMMHP asked them to do in time.

This is why I think CAAM-HP is corrupt. We know the pros and cons of Caribbean schools, and also the obviously better schools. Schools such as American University of Antigua, Texila, and American University of Barbados 😳 receive accreditation while SGU was placed on probation? Seems suspicious.

Especially those schools that have left CAAM-HP and successfully obtained ACCM.

In the past, I've tried to see why SGU was placed on probation, but the notes were very vague and still are.

St George’s University School of Medicine – Caribbean Accreditation Authority for Education in Medicine and Other Health Professions

Seems like a good move by SGU.

For WAUSOM, their notes are misleading. Candidacy status is misleading to the general public.

Western Atlantic University School of Medicine – Caribbean Accreditation Authority for Education in Medicine and Other Health Professions

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Seems like a good move by SGU.

Now SGU is accredited by GMDC. Whose only job is to accredit SGU. Which is the major employer on the island. This is ripe for abuse -- although I'm not suggesting I have any info that SGU has serious problems, but overall this isn't good.

 

[stethan]

Now SGU is accredited by GMDC. Whose only job is to accredit SGU. Which is the major employer on the island. This is ripe for abuse -- although I'm not suggesting I have any info that SGU has serious problems, but overall this isn't good.

You're right, this is all around bad and even far more corrupt. The GMDC website is a joke in terms of how new medical schools can obtain accreditation too. It says something along the lines of the school must first be accredited by another organization (caam/ACCM?) and also be in operation for x years. No other school will ever be in Grenada. It simply wouldn't be allowed as long as SGU is the cash cow.

But what can you do? Even the LCME has it's own issues.

 

[future Dr. Brandon]

This is why I think CAAM-HP is corrupt. We know the pros and cons of Caribbean schools, and also the obviously better schools. Schools such as American University of Antigua, Texila, and American University of Barbados 😳 receive accreditation while SGU was placed on probation? Seems suspicious.

Especially those schools that have left CAAM-HP and successfully obtained ACCM.

In the past, I've tried to see why SGU was placed on probation, but the notes were very vague and still are.

St George’s University School of Medicine – Caribbean Accreditation Authority for Education in Medicine and Other Health Professions

Seems like a good move by SGU.

For WAUSOM, their notes are misleading. Candidacy status is misleading to the general public.

Western Atlantic University School of Medicine – Caribbean Accreditation Authority for Education in Medicine and Other Health Professions

i've looked into a bunch of Caribbean schools and AUA has a massive attrition rate. A friend of mine went there and transferred to UMHS after half his class failed out. I never heard of UMHS ( University of Medicine and Health Sciences) before but it was started by the Ross family and seems to be a smaller version of Ross. They boost pretty impressive stats online, 92% first time match rate with a 4% attrition rate, which would be insane and close to US Schools. I dunno, but he seems pretty happy there, passed his step 1 on the first try and is in his 3rd year clinicals in Georgia, i guess to each their own.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

4% attrition?

 

[gyngyn]

They boost pretty impressive stats online, 92% first time match rate with a 4% attrition rate, which would be insane and close to US Schools.

That's right, these "data" are insane. They boost cash from naive applicants.
There is simply no way that this is remotely accurate.

 

[future Dr. Brandon]

That's right, these "data" are insane. They boost cash from naive applicants.
There is simply no way that this is remotely accurate.

They have to report these stats to their accrediting agency so when you say there is no way this is remotely accurate, I would say it has to be or else they can be sued. So far I do not see any court cases going on with UMHS to say that what they are putting out is false. Can you point to this or is this just your opinion?

 

[gyngyn]

They have to report these stats to their accrediting agency so when you say there is no way this is remotely accurate, I would say it has to be or else they can be sued. So far I do not see any court cases going on with UMHS to say that what they are putting out is false. Can you point to this or is this just your opinion?

The Caribbean schools are unaccredited by any US authority.
They do not answer to US laws.
There is evidence that the number who begins enrollment is well above the number that graduates. Thus, a claim of 4% attrition is inaccurate.

 

[future Dr. Brandon]

The Caribbean schools are unaccredited by any US authority.
They do not answer to US laws.
There is evidence that the number who begins enrollment is well above the number that graduates. Thus, a claim of 4% attrition is inaccurate.

but where is the proof it is inaccurate? and what is their number of enrollment vs their graduates? You are correct they are not LCME but that does not mean they do not have to follow guidelines set forth by their accrediting agency. By no means am I saying you should pick a Caribbean school over a US school but your claims of this information being inaccurate would need proof. I also know that just because there are many schools in the Caribbean you cannot just blanket that statement. Every school is different, and you really need to take the time to research each one respectively. If you can show me that these stats are inaccurate, please do I would be very interested by how much they are incorrect.

 

[future Dr. Brandon]

The Caribbean schools are unaccredited by any US authority.
They do not answer to US laws.
There is evidence that the number who begins enrollment is well above the number that graduates. Thus, a claim of 4% attrition is inaccurate.

also, another incorrect statement by you. The FTC can certainly get involved when the data is falsified.

Federal Trade Commission Takes Action Against For-Profit Medical School for Using Deceptive Marketing to Lure Students

The Federal Trade Commission has taken action against a for-profit medical school in the Caribbean and its Illinois-based operators, alleging they deceptively marketed the school’s medical license

www.ftc.gov

 

[PuzzlesMD]

but where is the proof it is inaccurate? and what is their number of enrollment vs their graduates? You are correct they are not LCME but that does not mean they do not have to follow guidelines set forth by their accrediting agency. By no means am I saying you should pick a Caribbean school over a US school but your claims of this information being inaccurate would need proof. I also know that just because there are many schools in the Caribbean you cannot just blanket that statement. Every school is different, and you really need to take the time to research each one respectively. If you can show me that these stats are inaccurate, please do I would be very interested by how much they are incorrect.

Isn't NotAProgDirector's comment with that screenshot not proof your 4% attrition is inaccurate?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

It's impossible to know for certain what's happening at UMHS.

I'm on their Admission page, which is here: Admissions & Aid | UMHS Medical School

Half way down, they state:
3 Annual Start dates
Class size 70 - 120
96% student retention rate
95% first time pass on Step 2

If we assume a class size of 100 on average, three classes per year, that's 300 students.
Ok great. Now let's look at their match list. It's prominently posted on their main page. I copied the 2024 data to a spreadsheet. How many matches were there? 172. And that includes a bunch of Transitional years -- which either mean that people didn't match to a full residency, or that some people are listed twice (once for their TY, and then for their advanced program). IN any case, something doesn't add up. Looks like 100-150 people disappeared.

96% student retention rate. They clearly state on multiple places on the web site that most people whom start, will graduate. But this number is very tweakable. They likely don't include anyone whom drops out. So perhaps they don't really ever expel anyone. They let you keep paying tuition and failing until you give up. Then you don't count as "non retention", since it was your choice to leave. It simply doesn't match with their class size.

Unless the class size represents the total size of all three classes. in that case, there are too many matches, which raises other questions.

The pass rate for Step 2 is obviously impacted by those failing S1 never getting to take it.

Looking at the match list itself is interesting. As expected, most are matching to FM, IM, Peds in community settings. 1/3 of the matches are in PR. Some of those listed that look like Univeristy based sites are actually community affiliates, or prelim positions. Nothing wrong with any of this, as long as people are aware of the likely outcome.

A 4% drop out rate seems too good to be true. If so, then they have found either a great way to pick people whom will do well in medical school, or they have an educational program that is somehow better than everyone else's. If either of those is the case, they should publish on it. Or, the numbers are being fudged.

 

[medschoolletsgo]

4% attrition?

View attachment 387607

You're interpreting the data wrong. That is how many that were admitted that year, and how many graduated that year. The school has been steadily growing and wasnt started until 2008. So the 101 is the class who started in 2013, 5 years after the school started.

 

[medschoolletsgo]

Also WAUSM is truly ****ed now. Theyre not approved by ECFMG for Pathways to complete ECFMG certification: 2025 Pathways | Medical Schools Eligible for Pathways

 

[medschoolletsgo]

It's impossible to know for certain what's happening at UMHS.

I'm on their Admission page, which is here: Admissions & Aid | UMHS Medical School

Half way down, they state:
3 Annual Start dates
Class size 70 - 120
96% student retention rate
95% first time pass on Step 2

If we assume a class size of 100 on average, three classes per year, that's 300 students.
Ok great. Now let's look at their match list. It's prominently posted on their main page. I copied the 2024 data to a spreadsheet. How many matches were there? 172. And that includes a bunch of Transitional years -- which either mean that people didn't match to a full residency, or that some people are listed twice (once for their TY, and then for their advanced program). IN any case, something doesn't add up. Looks like 100-150 people disappeared.

96% student retention rate. They clearly state on multiple places on the web site that most people whom start, will graduate. But this number is very tweakable. They likely don't include anyone whom drops out. So perhaps they don't really ever expel anyone. They let you keep paying tuition and failing until you give up. Then you don't count as "non retention", since it was your choice to leave. It simply doesn't match with their class size.

Unless the class size represents the total size of all three classes. in that case, there are too many matches, which raises other questions.

The pass rate for Step 2 is obviously impacted by those failing S1 never getting to take it.

Looking at the match list itself is interesting. As expected, most are matching to FM, IM, Peds in community settings. 1/3 of the matches are in PR. Some of those listed that look like Univeristy based sites are actually community affiliates, or prelim positions. Nothing wrong with any of this, as long as people are aware of the likely outcome.

A 4% drop out rate seems too good to be true. If so, then they have found either a great way to pick people whom will do well in medical school, or they have an educational program that is somehow better than everyone else's. If either of those is the case, they should publish on it. Or, the numbers are being fudged.

im a UMHS student. It's like 60 students per class. Also dont know anyone whos been dismissed from there. They really pride themselves on the high retention. Usually like 75% of the class passes each class. I'm currently in my maine semester before step 1 dedicated. I'm planning of FM so not too worried. UMHS has been pretty solid ngl.

In case you don't believe me about how many students per semester, here's a screenshot from the class registration page:

 

[NotAProgDirector]

You're interpreting the data wrong. That is how many that were admitted that year, and how many graduated that year. The school has been steadily growing and wasnt started until 2008. So the 101 is the class who started in 2013, 5 years after the school started.

That's somewhat fair, but it disagrees with your assessment that there are 60 per class. They clearly state they admitted 270 people in 2019. And they clearly state that there are three classes annually. That's an average of 90 people per class. Likely there are more people in the September class, so I expect it isn't distributed evenly

Also dont know anyone whos been dismissed from there. They really pride themselves on the high retention. Usually like 75% of the class passes each class.

That's interesting. Per their online handbook, you get dismissed if you fail the same class twice, fail a class while on probation (for failing another class), or fail any three classes. With a 25% failure rate per class, it would be very difficult for only 4% to be dismissed. Let's use your stated 60 people in a class as an example. 25% of 60 is 15 people failing each class. Each semester has 2-3 major classes. If you fail two of them, you get dismissed. So that would mean that the 15 people failing each class have to be different -- so that would mean that 45 people (of 60) fail a class each year. Although perhaps what you meant was that 25% of each cohort fails one class -- that would be much more reasonable. Even with that, it means that almost everyone who retakes a class passes it and doesn't fail something subsequently.

 

[medschoolletsgo]

That's somewhat fair, but it disagrees with your assessment that there are 60 per class. They clearly state they admitted 270 people in 2019. And they clearly state that there are three classes annually. That's an average of 90 people per class. Likely there are more people in the September class, so I expect it isn't distributed evenly

That's interesting. Per their online handbook, you get dismissed if you fail the same class twice, fail a class while on probation (for failing another class), or fail any three classes. With a 25% failure rate per class, it would be very difficult for only 4% to be dismissed. Let's use your stated 60 people in a class as an example. 25% of 60 is 15 people failing each class. Each semester has 2-3 major classes. If you fail two of them, you get dismissed. So that would mean that the 15 people failing each class have to be different -- so that would mean that 45 people (of 60) fail a class each year. Although perhaps what you meant was that 25% of each cohort fails one class -- that would be much more reasonable. Even with that, it means that almost everyone who retakes a class passes it and doesn't fail something subsequently.

So if they fail a class they are retaking, they get "dismissed" and have to appeal. They always seem to accept the appeals. I know people who took one class 3 times after an appeal and then passed it. I also know someone who went through the dismissal process twice, got their appeal approved twice, and kept going.

The September class is larger around 80-90 but the data from 2017-2019 is out of date. There were more students coming here at that time then around COVID, class sizes became smaller. They are starting to pick back up now with new students but there definitely was a dry period of 40-60 students a semester between 2020-2024.

 

[future Dr. Brandon]

Isn't NotAProgDirector's comment with that screenshot not proof your 4% attrition is inaccurate?

there is no way to confirm it's accuracy so i'm not taking this as factual.

 

[stethan]

there is no way to confirm it's accuracy so i'm not taking this as factual.

It's all self reported. Yes, accreditation takes this data into consideration, but it won't affect the school in the event that the school is possibly issuing misleading messages or bending the truth. They might have to "explain" the information given to the public, but highly unlikely.

However, if the school is giving false data to the accreditation bodies, yes that's a violation.

 

[future Dr. Brandon]

off topic but IMG's had a pretty successful match this year and something I did not know, was they make up 25% of the physicans.

IMGs Show Strong Performance in 2024 Match - Caribbean Accreditation Authority for Education in Medicine and Other Health Professions

In 2010, ECFMG instituted medical school accreditation by a recognized accrediting agency as a future requirement for ECFMG Certification. The goal of this initiative, now known as the Recognized Accreditation Policy, is to stimulate accreditation efforts worldwide and promote global standards...

caam-hp.org

 

[EthylMethylMan]

off topic but IMG's had a pretty successful match this year and something I did not know, was they make up 25% of the physicans.

IMGs Show Strong Performance in 2024 Match - Caribbean Accreditation Authority for Education in Medicine and Other Health Professions

In 2010, ECFMG instituted medical school accreditation by a recognized accrediting agency as a future requirement for ECFMG Certification. The goal of this initiative, now known as the Recognized Accreditation Policy, is to stimulate accreditation efforts worldwide and promote global standards...

caam-hp.org

I would bet my right thumb that the overwhelming majority of those were from the big 3.

 

[GiraffeGirl2]

Also WAUSM is truly ****ed now. Theyre not approved by ECFMG for Pathways to complete ECFMG certification: 2025 Pathways | Medical Schools Eligible for Pathways

Does this mean WAUSOM students that are already in rotations can’t take Step 1 in 2025? Or could this be updated if ECFMG approves it prior to 2026?

 

[stethan]

Does this mean WAUSOM students that are already in rotations can’t take Step 1 in 2025? Or could this be updated if ECFMG approves it prior to 2026?

The pathways is for direct certification of the old (and discontinued Step 2 CS exam). Students of schools not on this list simply go through other pathways. However, for WAUSOM, it doesn't matter because until the school has an ECFMG sponsor note, it's students can't go through any pathways, whether in 2025 or 2035.

 

[GiraffeGirl2]

The pathways is for direct certification of the old (and discontinued Step 2 CS exam). Students of schools not on this list simply go through other pathways. However, for WAUSOM, it doesn't matter because until the school has an ECFMG sponsor note, it's students can't go through any pathways, whether in 2025 or 2035.

Oh I see, thank you. So why do you think they are having so much trouble obtaining a ECFMG sponsor note?

 

[stethan]

I do not know. I do know that it is not the school's age because the American Canadian school of medicine, which I believe started after WAUSOM (2023), even has an ECFMG sponsor note. I'm not sure what WAUSOM is telling its students, but based on their social media, it seems like full steam ahead with betting that the ECFMG will sign off soon.

 

[medschoolletsgo]

As of today (10/17/24). Its crazy to me that they have on their site how its a big deal they got provisional CAAM-HP accreditation but their students are SOL when it comes to applying to take any of the USMLE exams.

 

[stethan]

Yea I agree with you totally. So for ECFMG certificate you can graduate with a school without accrediation but you won't be able to take step? I'm a little confused because if your school isn't accredited how can you take step and even get an certificate?

Yes. Accredtiation and ECFMG certification are independent of each other. Many international schools have no accreditation but could have ECFMG certification.