what about that good old PhD

[Newman8r]

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Well, I have recently thought that I might want to go get the phd before I even apply to med school. I want to do this out of personal interest, I have really enjoyed the research I have been doing and I want to take it to the next level.

I know way too much about the MD/DO process, but I really don't know too much about going to grad school for the phd. Also, I really don't feel like doing a combined program.

Can someone tell me about the whole process, including:

-costs
-required tests
-timetables
-application process
-how busy the schedule is
-any other info

Thanks a lot

 

[Medikit]

If you go for an MD/PhD you get your MD paid for and a stipend.

 

[Hoberto]

Why wouldn't you go for a combined program?

It's paid for, faster and you'll make more money.

-costs
Should cost you nothing or very little. This depends heavily on the program and school. You may have to put in time as a GA/TA in exchange for tuition/stipend. I am mostly familiar with engineering..where one doesn't pay for grad school.

-required tests
GRE or GRE-subject depending on your field. After that, you'll need to pass the qualifier for your school which is a test of the major themes\courses of your discipline.

-timetables
Minimum is typically 5 years, can take up to ten years to complete.

-application process
Much like undergrad. Stiffer competition depending on school and discipline.

-how busy the schedule is
Depends a LOT on professor. You could be working 20hrs + classes or 60 hrs + classes + TA work.

-any other info
Usually with combined programs the PI has an interest in getting you degreed and outta there. With a PhD only you risk having a PI who keeps you around for no good reason other than he likes having the extra labor in the lab. This happens an awful lot and can be a complete nightmare. If you would be a competitive applicant you should seriously consider the combined programs and then go PhD as a backup plan.

 

[Newman8r]

Why wouldn't you go for a combined program?

It's paid for, faster and you'll make more money.

-costs
Should cost you nothing or very little. This depends heavily on the program and school. You may have to put in time as a GA/TA in exchange for tuition/stipend. I am mostly familiar with engineering..where one doesn't pay for grad school.

-required tests
GRE or GRE-subject depending on your field. After that, you'll need to pass the qualifier for your school which is a test of the major themes\courses of your discipline.

-timetables
Minimum is typically 5 years, can take up to ten years to complete.

-application process
Much like undergrad. Stiffer competition depending on school and discipline.

-how busy the schedule is
Depends a LOT on professor. You could be working 20hrs + classes or 60 hrs + classes + TA work.

-any other info
Usually with combined programs the PI has an interest in getting you degreed and outta there. With a PhD only you risk having a PI who keeps you around for no good reason other than he likes having the extra labor in the lab. This happens an awful lot and can be a complete nightmare. If you would be a competitive applicant you should seriously consider the combined programs and then go PhD as a backup plan.

The reason I was skeptical about the combined program is that I have heard people say you are doing both the medical stuff and the phd work kind of at the same time. This seems like it would be too much stuff to get done in only 7 years (thats the timeframe, right?)

10 years would be a nightmare though. I'm gonna have do do a little more research on this subject

 

[Medikit]

The reason I was skeptical about the combined program is that I have heard people say you are doing both the medical stuff and the phd work kind of at the same time. This seems like it would be too much stuff to get done in only 7 years (thats the timeframe, right?)

10 years would be a nightmare though. I'm gonna have do do a little more research on this subject

Nah, you spend 2 years pretty much only doing you ms1 and ms2 stuff. Then you take the USMLE-1 and start doing research. During the next 3 years you work towards completing your PhD. Then after that is done you start doing ms3 and ms4. Ask more questions about it in the MSTP forum: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=32

Don't forget to read the FAQ: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=64282

 

[Scottish Chap]

Well, I have recently thought that I might want to go get the phd before I even apply to med school. I want to do this out of personal interest, I have really enjoyed the research I have been doing and I want to take it to the next level.

I did a Ph.D. in pharmacology before medical school application. I'll try to answer you with only the biosciences in mind.
-costs
At a good school, it's free (meaning tuition, health care, and a stipend of between $16, 000 and $22, 000/year is paid). Note: these numbers are usually only for the biosciences as a lot of governmental money gets directed there.

-required tests
Only the GRE general test. One or two more competitive programs like Hopkins may also as for a subject test in biology, biochemistry etc. Some programs will accept the MCAT in lieu of the GRE if your application is going to be late.

-timetables
Starting: usually the same time as undergraduates in the Fall.
Duration: the mean time for a U.S. bioscience Ph.D. is now 5.5. years. Some finish faster (I took 3.5 years) and some take longer (I personally know two guys who took 7 and 8 years, respectively).

-application process
Most application deadlines are January, starting the Fall of the same year.

-how busy the schedule is
You'll be taking mostly classes the first year or two. I had usually two lectures per day and the odd tutorial. The rest of the time you are expected to be in lab and to study (contrary to popular belief, graduate school classes are often as hard and more detailed than medical school classes so you WILL have to study hard at a good program). After your classes are fisnished, most Ph.D. advisors will be looking for 45+ hours in lab. I averaged 65+ with more than one 100-hour week at the busy times.

-any other info
Graduate school is full of ups and downs. 90% of what you do will not work and you cannot let that shake you or make you insecure. Unlike medical school or law school where there is a set curriculum that they absolutely have to teach you in order for you to pass the classes and graduate, graduate school often leaves you at the mercy of your advisor's time schedule. It can also get political; if someone does not like you or you cross the wrong person, you can get in a whole lot of trouble and your thesis can be jeopardized. There are no real people to turn to for help if this happens. In addition, you have to be extremely motivated in lab to get publications. Overall, I'm glad I did it and I would not change a thing. It is a rewarding educational experience and, unlike the M.D., it is universally accepted to work in any country.

 

[Newman8r]

thanks for the replies, all of this is really helpful.

and by the way, I would be looking to study neuroscience.

 

[CADreaming06]

thanks for the replies, all of this is really helpful.

and by the way, I would be looking to study neuroscience.

basically i did what you are planning on doing - phd in neuro, and now am applying to med school. i would suggest that you think about the md-phd, the previous poster was right re. time/tuition saved.

most of the schools i applied to did require the bio gre, but it wasn't a huge part of the process. the gre seemed to be more important. the application is in the fall ($60 or so /school), and the interviews all happen between the end of january and the end of march.

the previous poster was right re. stipend - it depends on the school and if you have a fellowship, but the going rate in SF and NYC and MA is between 25500 and 26500.

neuro can take more time than a biochem or more molecular field. in systems neuroscience, it unfortunately is still common to hear of people graduating in 7 years or more. in developmental neuroscience it can be faster depending on your research. something to consider when looking at labs. if you are md-phd, the projects can sometimes be tailored for a faster track phd. good luck, if you have any other questions let me know.

 

[Mitro]

Seriously, go with the combined program. They are faster for a reason - most programs offer protection against excessively long PhDs. Some school's programs seem not to, like Harvard. But in many schools, the MD/PhD directors have a fair amount of pull and can keep you on track. This is why a nightmare combined program is 9 or 10 years, while nightmare PhD then MD would be 11. Also, others were right about the debt. You make less money in academics, so all those loans will be harder to pay off.

Also, I don't know if anyone pointed this out, but you don't have to take the GREs when applying to combined programs

 

[ddmo]

Pardon me for being the jerk, but how does one think they want to get a PhD without having any idea what obtaining one involves? It's basically completely dependent on how fast you can obtain enough significant results in order to write an acceptable thesis. Your research advisor also makes a big impact on how long it will take you to finish the degree.

I realize you like your research now, but would you be content with doing it for another 4 years? If anything, go combined since as mentioned above it will cut the time down a little. However, I have heard many people make the case that a PhD in addition to an MD or DO is simply unnecessary, but it does not work the other way around.