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What application information do medical schools verify during a 2nd and 3rd year?

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Gauss44

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Just heard a scary story about a medical student getting kicked out of school in her 2nd or 3rd year for lying on her application. I was wondering what application information medical schools verify and how strict they are? (And how strict they aren't? Where do you have more leeway? Where don't you have much leeway and have to get things exactly right?)
 

Toutie

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Do you know exactly what she lied about? Getting things "exactly right" is very different from outright lying. To be tossed out of school, she must have had a very significant lie.
 
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Tchotchke

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This could be a rumor...but you never know.

Be honest in your application. When it comes to hours, it's ok to round A LITTLE (like, to the nearest 10) but keep in mind that schools have every right to contact the people you list as references for those activities. Don't say you did something that you did not (activities as a whole, hours, responsibilities and tasks in that activity, etc). It could come back to bite you in the angle-side-side, or at the very least. you'll be looking over your shoulder for a while.
 
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Just heard a scary story about a medical student getting kicked out of school in her 2nd or 3rd year for lying on her application. I was wondering what application information medical schools verify and how strict they are? (And how strict they aren't? Where do you have more leeway? Where don't you have much leeway and have to get things exactly right?)
I've heard of this happening as late as the fourth year of med school. What, when, how much, or if schools verify, depends on the institution. It averages out to "not common," but do you really want to be waiting for Damocles sword to fall all through med school?

For Hobbies you have leeway. Maybe for Artistic Endeavors, too. For all else, best to be on the up and up. Reasonable rounding is OK.
 
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gonnif

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Just heard a scary story about a medical student getting kicked out of school in her 2nd or 3rd year for lying on her application. I was wondering what application information medical schools verify and how strict they are? (And how strict they aren't? Where do you have more leeway? Where don't you have much leeway and have to get things exactly right?)

Lets clarify all this.

Every school has a stated policy that an false representation on an application can result in rescinding an acceptance, from the moment you get accepted until the day your degree is awarded.

When you sign an AMCAS, your are certifying that all information is accurate
When you submit a Secondary, you are signing that all information is accurate
When you take an offer of acceptance or at pre-matriculation, you are stating all info is accurate.
For all three above you either explicitly or implicitly agree to follow all rules, policies, etc as published (usually in student handbook)
BTW, from the moment you apply, you are agreeing to follow the student handbook and all rules; it is up to you to seek them out on the website

After you take an offer of acceptance, you go thru pre-matriculation, where your criminal background check and your official transcripts, which you have to have sent directly to the school, are reviewed. At this point a deeper check maybe done where they verify LORs writers, some ECs, (why do it on thousands of applicants when you need to do it on a few hundred pre-matriculants ).

Well, what's next? As a medical student, you are going be touching patients in hospitals. Each of those hospitals has to follow their state's laws on background checks and each school will have an agreement to do so. This is where things like expunged and sealed criminal records may come into play. Most laws allowing sealed or expunged records have exceptions for review for law enforcement and medical employment. And simply because it is sealed or expunged in court, doesnt mean it wont show up on arrest record. You may have to agree to have the record unsealed or you may dismissed. Additionally, more intensive background checks may look deeply on SSN, DOB, and other info and come up with say a school you never listed. Sometimes these issues will come up on the constant internal audit that any hospital or medical school essentially does now simply to keep in compliance with accreditation.

So, to your questions, medical schools and their associated training hospitals can and will probe almost every orifice of your background, and depending on state law, medical board, hospital regulations, and a host of other accreditations, may say, we wont have this student work in this hospital touching these patients because whatever reason they find that can be construed as misrepresentation on your application. Do not expect or hope for leeway as there is no way to assume that will happen.

So lets go further just to show you the risks. Now you have two years of medical school and $80,000 of loans. If your reason for dismissal is egregious enough that can be construed as getting a loan under false pretenses, you may get the DOE demanding fill restitution and take you to civil court to get it. And even on very rare occasions, get criminal charges in federal court (some medical student who was a drug dealer had this happen).

Now that either you are are puckered so tight that not even gas will pass or so scared that everything has evacuated, this is why when doing AMCAS, I suggest you err on the side of caution. For example, Ohio gives speeding tickets as misdemeanors yet applicants overlook it. Or you had what you thought was an informal IA for Alcohol as freshman report it.

Let me also add, since you will be working in a hospital in states that may allow pot, do not assume you are free to partake. In addition to drug testing, pot is still federally illegal. And our current United States Attorney General, Jefferson Beauregard Sessions, the Third, that fine gentleman from Alabama, has taken up the cause of marijuana as a gateway drug. Perhaps his knowledge is from Reefer Madness but the DEA is now instructed to enforce the laws. The DEA is also the agency that goves licenses to medical providers for control substances. In short, dont f*ck with the DEA.

Yes, I painted the harshest picture on purpose as the at is the most impact of this risk. It takes alot for a school to dismiss you . Lying on your application especially about academic or illegal behavior will get you kick out and you will have virtually no legal recourse

 
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ecko126

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A search brought up this thread: What happens if you lie on a med school application about previously attending

One poster says that their school does a full investigation into every student (previous acceptances, volunteering hours, etc) that usually takes until 4th year, and the students who are caught are subject to criminal prosecution afterwards. That might be the worst case you could get, but at least one school does do it.

Do you know what the student actually did/lied about?

Just heard a scary story about a medical student getting kicked out of school in her 2nd or 3rd year for lying on her application. I was wondering what application information medical schools verify and how strict they are? (And how strict they aren't? Where do you have more leeway? Where don't you have much leeway and have to get things exactly right?)
 
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ecko126

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I personally know someone who was caught in an AMCAS W/A section lie. She was lacking volunteer hours, so she lied about 400 non-medical volunteer hours over the span of two years (during her junior year and application year, so most were "anticipated hours"). Apparently, her school contacted the supervisor after MS1 year and caught the lie. Turns out she only worked ~25 hours with the organization and did not verify her "400 hours" with the contact she listed on AMCAS. She had to go in front of the medical school's dean and plead her case (her argument was that she planned to do the hours but never had time). She got away with only a slap on the wrist, but I should note that she did extensive research and volunteer work at her institution during MS1 year and had straight honors. I don't know if that was factored into the decision to keep her. She was sweating bullets for two months.

TL;DR: Can you lie on AMCAS and get away with it? 98/100 times, yes. Should you take that chance for such little gain? Absolutely not.

I don't get why they would check so late, though. If they just checked in the summer before she started school, they would have rescinded her acceptance and filled the spot off the waitlist easily. I can understand if something like a criminal record was not fully disclosed and comes up later, but checking volunteering a year after a student has started school seems weird to me. Did she do something that made them decide to check?
 

Gauss44

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What brought on my question is that neither life, nor AMCAS, is black and white, binary, clear as day - or free of alternative perceptions and interpretations. I'm sure that well-meaning applicants have probably faced issues involving accuracy. That is where my question lies.
 
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What about future hours? For example, I listed like 30 hours future for an activity and then they changed the volunteering schedule such that I wasn't able to complete them. I had completed all of the hours I listed as complete at the time of applying, but didn't get to finish the future hours for one activity. Would a situation like this be something to be worried about?
No, because you clearly delineated the difference on your application between completed and future involvement. I'd hope that no one would worry about a 30 hour difference, but if you were put to the wall, your volunteer coordinator would be able to back up your explanation.

Future hours are not going to be much regarded, as "life happens." People break legs, get mono, have sick family members needing help, get fired, their PI dies, loses funding, or moves to another institution, etc.
 
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If the hours were listed as future hours then possible events beyond your control are assumed. Not like you showed a pattern of deliberate deceipt.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
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Yhorm the Giant

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This is the kind of stuff that scares me! So when I was 16, in 2006, I was handcuffed and had to wait for my parent to come get me from an elementary school I was at night, just hanging out with my friends, literally just laying down looking at the stars at like 11 at night(small town....like 3000 people). I went to a meeting the next week with my juvenile probation officer or whatever the title was, he had me write a 1 page paper on what I could have done that night instead to give me ideas besides public trespassing again.
So, I've wanted to err on the side of caution and report it if asked about any juvenile stuff, I contacted the court house, they found the record of the event, but said no charges were filed, the lady said it was handled "non-judicially", I guess meaning it was pretty unofficial, yet she had the record and that I just had to write a paper on it, meaning there is a record, but she specifically said there were no charges. Yet there is a record. But no charges. Yet there's a record....and my circular mental battle continues. I contacted them to see exactly what to put on my application or a secondary if there was a misdemeanor charge, but since there wasn't one I wouldn't even know what to put on the primary or secondary. But man I would not want to be dismissed in my 2nd, 3rd or 4th year....
Thoughts?
 

ecko126

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I've heard of this happening as late as the fourth year of med school. What, when, how much, or if schools verify, depends on the institution. It averages out to "not common," but do you really want to be waiting for Damocles sword to fall all through med school?

For Hobbies you have leeway. Maybe for Artistic Endeavors, too. For all else, best to be on the up and up. Reasonable rounding is OK.

Would it be best for me to keep in contact with volunteer and research supervisors throughout the four years of medical school so that they are able to vouch for me if someone decides to check a couple years in? I think some of them already forgot me, so I have no doubt that in 3-4 years they wouldn't be able to remember me at all haha
 

blackroses

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This is the kind of stuff that scares me! So when I was 16, in 2006, I was handcuffed and had to wait for my parent to come get me from an elementary school I was at night, just hanging out with my friends, literally just laying down looking at the stars at like 11 at night(small town....like 3000 people). I went to a meeting the next week with my juvenile probation officer or whatever the title was, he had me write a 1 page paper on what I could have done that night instead to give me ideas besides public trespassing again.
So, I've wanted to err on the side of caution and report it if asked about any juvenile stuff, I contacted the court house, they found the record of the event, but said no charges were filed, the lady said it was handled "non-judicially", I guess meaning it was pretty unofficial, yet she had the record and that I just had to write a paper on it, meaning there is a record, but she specifically said there were no charges. Yet there is a record. But no charges. Yet there's a record....and my circular mental battle continues. I contacted them to see exactly what to put on my application or a secondary if there was a misdemeanor charge, but since there wasn't one I wouldn't even know what to put on the primary or secondary. But man I would not want to be dismissed in my 2nd, 3rd or 4th year....
Thoughts?
It doesn't sound like you were even arrested - it just sounds like the cop tossed handcuffs on you to try to scare you. This is not something you need to disclose.
 
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Gauss44

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Without getting into identifying levels of detail, I have a case of Winkelvoss and Zuckerberg going on.... How would you handle that on an application?
 

Tchotchke

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Without getting into identifying levels of detail, I have a case of Winkelvoss and Zuckerberg going on.... How would you handle that on an application?
Make the Student Doctor Network movie

I think the issue is that without certain details, one cannot appropriately advise you. Was this plagiarism? Was is an extracurricular business venture? Was your misstep officially called out by your school's administration? Were you confronted about this issue and there is record of some sort of legal or institutional action? Or, was the issue never raised but you regret something from the past?
 

gonnif

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I don't get why they would check so late, though. If they just checked in the summer before she started school, they would have rescinded her acceptance and filled the spot off the waitlist easily. I can understand if something like a criminal record was not fully disclosed and comes up later, but checking volunteering a year after a student has started school seems weird to me. Did she do something that made them decide to check?

It takes a while to thoroughly check each student usually done under the auspices of the office of General Counsel and/or Compliance Officer in order to comply with 1) state law 2) state medical licensing, 3) associated hospitals and clinical sites, 4) accreditation for school and associated sites (ie Joint Commission). Each of these levels may have different compliance rules, require audits or spot checking, and all will be reviewed in house (to clean it up) prior to reporting to each level .

Another large factor is, while the primary mission of the medical school is to train physicians, the primary risk/worry of the overall institution, particularly associated hospitals or increasingly large hospital systems is branding/reputation. They do not want 10 years from now some doctor someplace to be found out because they killed patients due to incompetence or was in a medicare fraud to be found somehow had gotten into medical school under false pretenses and the medical school is named. Some 20-30 years ago or more, there was a spate of students getting in with falsified transcripts, degrees etc and years later getting caught on something, and splashing the medical school name across the tabloids. It is one of the reasons that the LCME (which accredits medical schools) requires that schools have admissions policies and standards, and then adheres to those policies (which are check in constant audits of a kind) and that is school varies too much from that (as in requirement waivers), they can be dinged in re-accreditation .
 
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gonnif

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Without getting into identifying levels of detail, I have a case of Winkelvoss and Zuckerberg going on.... How would you handle that on an application?
That is a business and civil action and doesnt need to be reported
 
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Gauss44

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Make the Student Doctor Network movie

I think the issue is that without certain details, one cannot appropriately advise you. Was this plagiarism? Was is an extracurricular business venture? Was your misstep officially called out by your school's administration? Were you confronted about this issue and there is record of some sort of legal or institutional action? Or, was the issue never raised but you regret something from the past?

None of those. I'm just trying to make the most truthful, accurate and fair application possible. I'm in the process of filling out AMCAS right now and am doing my due diligence.
 
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Gauss44

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That is a business and civil action and doesnt need to be reported

It is impressive if reported. I guess I'm trying to strike a balance between being fair to oneself by not understating or omitting one's best accomplishments, but also not overstating for more obvious reasons.
 

ecko126

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It takes a while to thoroughly check each student usually done under the auspices of the office of General Counsel and/or Compliance Officer in order to comply with 1) state law 2) state medical licensing, 3) associated hospitals and clinical sites, 4) accreditation for school and associated sites (ie Joint Commission). Each of these levels may have different compliance rules, require audits or spot checking, and all will be reviewed in house (to clean it up) prior to reporting to each level .

Another large factor is, while the primary mission of the medical school is to train physicians, the primary risk/worry of the overall institution, particularly associated hospitals or increasingly large hospital systems is branding/reputation. They do not want 10 years from now some doctor someplace to be found out because they killed patients due to incompetence or was in a medicare fraud to be found somehow had gotten into medical school under false pretenses and the medical school is named. Some 20-30 years ago or more, there was a spate of students getting in with falsified transcripts, degrees etc and years later getting caught on something, and splashing the medical school name across the tabloids. It is one of the reasons that the LCME (which accredits medical schools) requires that schools have admissions policies and standards, and then adheres to those policies (which are check in constant audits of a kind) and that is school varies too much from that (as in requirement waivers), they can be dinged in re-accreditation .


That seems reasonable. Thank you for the insight! With how competitive admissions has become, I can totally see the need for something like that. Still, I'm surprised medical schools have people looking through old applications to check volunteering.
 

gonnif

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That seems reasonable. Thank you for the insight! With how competitive admissions has become, I can totally see the need for something like that. Still, I'm surprised medical schools have people looking through old applications to check volunteering.

Making sure all the laundry is clean before an audit or report is likely why
 
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