What are Labs Like in Pharm School?

[nerdystar]

I'm just curious what labs are like in pharmacy school. Do they resemble undergrad chemistry or biology labs where you come in and do an assigned experiment and then write an individual lab report? Or are they different? And if they are, the how so? Do you like pharm school labs better than undergrad labs?

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[alwaystired]

I'm just curious what labs are like in pharmacy school. Do they resemble undergrad chemistry or biology labs where you come in and do an assigned experiment and then write an individual lab report? Or are they different? And if they are, the how so? Do you like pharm school labs better than undergrad labs?

At University of Southern Nevada, we do not have any labs. They are developing a research lab, but I don't know if any labs will be incorporated in the future.

 

[sdn1977]

I've been out of school too long to have an accurate answer, but when I went to pharmacy school, we did have labs. We actually identified unknowns through laboratory experiments (similar to undergrad organic labs) and we had compounding labs where we made different products. I was very aware of stuff they no longer taught though - I learned a lot about compounding from older pharmacists I worked with. So, between the labs and my intern experience, I really did learn how to make an "elegant" product (which is an actual pharmaceutical term to describe a well compounded product - usually topical). I have heard from students in the last 10 years though, some of the labs now incorporate parenteral compounding which is a big deal because of the huge lawsuit which took place in CA due to a poorly compounded parenteral product.

 

[npage148]

The pharmacy practice labs at ub are best described as a practical compounding skills lab. You make capsules and all the basic dispensed products and also IV's in sterile enviroment. We made Ointments, lotions, creams, PLO gel, capsules, suspensions, solution, suppositores, IV bags and syringes. At ub there are lots of research labs but there are no classes that require them for pharm practice. They are for the factually involved in research and their students. Pharmacy practice students have the oppurtiunity to do work in these labs as extra credit. These labs are like the organic and bio labs. I hope you can read this and understand it. Im tired and its kinda hard to explain becasue the 2 labs are so starkly differnt

 

[spacecowgirl]

At Carolina we had several different labs, I am not sure if the curriculum has changed in the past two years regarding labs. Your P1 year consists of a compounding lab one semester and a community lab the next. Compounding is as it sounds - you make nonsterile products such as capsules, creams, ointments, suppositories, suspensions, gels, etc. Community lab is learning how to take verbal and written orders, profile, fill and counsel. You typically have a pre-lab for compounding that consists of calculations and learning about the different ingredients in compounds and why they are used (suspending agents, emollients, flavoring/sweetners). Pre-lab for community lab is memorizing classes of drugs, drug names (brand and generic) and basic counseling information. Second year lab is another semester of community with some focus on pharmaceutical care and reviewing charts, making recommendations etc in addition to what you do in P1 lab. You also have a semester of hospital lab where you learn sterile prep of parenterals as well as how to fill patient carts, code boxes, etc. I feel like we had some other lab thrown in there but I can't remember now This year is really affecting my brain.

Basically pharm labs are nothing like undergrad - they are much more applied knowledge.

 

[nerdystar]

Thanks everyone for your input. I was just wondering b/c I really hate undergrad labs. They are soooo boring to me. I wish undergrad lab just consisted of teaching us techniques and methods. I'm glad that the pharm schools sounds like they'll be teaching us useable and important knowledge.

 

[DrugDealer]

At University of Southern Nevada, we do not have any labs. They are developing a research lab, but I don't know if any labs will be incorporated in the future.

How do you feel about the lack of labs? Do you feel you are getting short-changed? That was one of my reasons for declining my acceptance to USN.

 

[alwaystired]

How do you feel about the lack of labs? Do you feel you are getting short-changed? That was one of my reasons for declining my acceptance to USN.

I don't feel shortchanged yet. I say yet b/c I just want to learn compounding/IV/TPN at some point. At USN you work in the pharmacy quite a bit (40 8 hour days (first 2 years) and then 6 weeks each summer those years) so I am under the understanding that we will be exposed to it as we go along....which is more practical, b/c you really don't compound on a daily basis in retail. As for hospital TPN, and IV's, etc. I don't know when we will learn that. Maybe our 3 year in rotations? My knowledge of the third year is not where I would like it to be. But overall, USN does things differently and I can't say that I miss not having labs, esp. since I don't know how much we use the compounding.

A third year or grad could answer this better I am afraid.

 

[Requiem]

At University of Southern Nevada, we do not have any labs. They are developing a research lab, but I don't know if any labs will be incorporated in the future.

That seems like a huge curriculum GAP.

Nonetheless, we have many labs in pharmacy school. This semester, we have a pharmaceutical analysis (where you study analytical methods for analyzing drugs, very similar to analytical chemistry with a pharmacy application) i.e HPLC, DSC Calorimetry, etc.

We have a pharmaceutics lab where we compound prescriptions, research the ingredients, and prepare a final product + lab write up, as per usual.

As well, we have a pharmacy skills lab - where we practice filling prescriptions, counseling, patient interviews, etc. You are trained in basically the functioning of a community pharmacy, receiving transfers, faxed, verbal prescriptions, etc.

As well we have an anatomy and physiology lab. So to the person without labs, I feel sorry for what you're missing man.

 

[npage148]

Funny, I knew what requiem's post was gonna say even before i read it

 

[alwaystired]

That seems like a huge curriculum GAP.

Nonetheless, we have many labs in pharmacy school. This semester, we have a pharmaceutical analysis (where you study analytical methods for analyzing drugs, very similar to analytical chemistry with a pharmacy application) i.e HPLC, DSC Calorimetry, etc.

We have a pharmaceutics lab where we compound prescriptions, research the ingredients, and prepare a final product + lab write up, as per usual.

As well, we have a pharmacy skills lab - where we practice filling prescriptions, counseling, patient interviews, etc. You are trained in basically the functioning of a community pharmacy, receiving transfers, faxed, verbal prescriptions, etc.

As well we have an anatomy and physiology lab. So to the person without labs, I feel sorry for what you're missing man.

You do not need to be in a "lab" to practice filling Rx,counseling, recieving transfers, verbal Rx. That is why USN puts you in the real world the first week you are in the program. I guess that is their version of "lab" As for A&P, everyone had to have that already, so no, we don't have that for a lab for that either. As for feeling sorry for us, please don't. We aren't the ones writing pointless lab reports and I am sure we will aquire all the skills necessary to be great pharmacists without attending "lab".

 

[Requiem]

You do not need to be in a "lab" to practice filling Rx,counseling, recieving transfers, verbal Rx. That is why USN puts you in the real world the first week you are in the program. I guess that is their version of "lab" As for A&P, everyone had to have that already, so no, we don't have that for a lab for that either. As for feeling sorry for us, please don't. We aren't the ones writing pointless lab reports and I am sure we will aquire all the skills necessary to be great pharmacists without attending "lab".

Well, it's better to learn how to do something (i.e practicing filling) before you actually have to do it, no?. That is why my school puts you in a summer rotation after you've completed a year of schooling, not during the first week of a program when you basically know nothing related to pharmacy.

As for pharmaceutics and pharmaceutical analysis, they're important areas which require a lab session.

I absolutely hate lab writeups with a passion; however, at the end of the day, as much as I'd love not to do them, I know they're not "pointless".

I hope no one was planning on a research career in your class

All in good humour.

 

[DrugDealer]

You do not need to be in a "lab" to practice filling Rx,counseling, recieving transfers, verbal Rx. That is why USN puts you in the real world the first week you are in the program. I guess that is their version of "lab" As for A&P, everyone had to have that already, so no, we don't have that for a lab for that either. As for feeling sorry for us, please don't. We aren't the ones writing pointless lab reports and I am sure we will aquire all the skills necessary to be great pharmacists without attending "lab".

Accepting and making transfers, taking Dr. calls, filling scripts, etc. can easily be learned on the job without any former training or practice, but I think the real value of pharmacy practice lab comes from the counseling training. I think it would be very nerve-racking to try to just wing your first counseling sessions. Being able to practice with classmates and receive feedback from your professors really helps smooth out the kinks and boost your confidence.

 

[sdn1977]

I can't tell you how old this makes me feel! When I was in my pharmaceutics lab (where we made & labeled products)...we had to hand write labels! I thought that was sooooo backwards because at my intern job, I put each label into the typewriter (ie - wound the platen back, intserted the label, the wound it up to be typed - can you even envision this???? ..do any of you remember a typewriter?). Here it is now...20 something years later...yeah - the important part is what you tell the patient! The label will have everything on it the programers will have decided you need. Pharmaceutics, IMO very, very, humble opinion...is making a very elegant, useful product and explaining it very, very well to your patient! The label will get done no matter what (just be sure you can duplicate it when the power goes out - which has happened to me about 3 times a year!). Have Fun!

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Accepting and making transfers, taking Dr. calls, filling scripts, etc. can easily be learned on the job without any former training or practice, but I think the real value of pharmacy practice lab comes from the counseling training. I think it would be very nerve-racking to try to just wing your first counseling sessions. Being able to practice with classmates and receive feedback from your professors really helps smooth out the kinks and boost your confidence.

I agree with this. Of all of the things you mentioned above, the one that's giving me the most trouble during in my current intern position is learning to counsel. I'm supposed to be learning it, but it's very hard to pick up on the fly. Effective counseling training involves a lot of listening, practicing and feedback. The pharmacy I was working in was very, busy, so there wasn't a lot of time for a lot of coaching from the pharmacist. I've just transferred to a slower store, and my new preceptor wants to work on counseling and compounding. It will be a nice change of pace.

I'm really lucky, I'll have almost a year of internship under my belt when I start pharmacy school in August.

 

[alwaystired]

Accepting and making transfers, taking Dr. calls, filling scripts, etc. can easily be learned on the job without any former training or practice, but I think the real value of pharmacy practice lab comes from the counseling training. I think it would be very nerve-racking to try to just wing your first counseling sessions. Being able to practice with classmates and receive feedback from your professors really helps smooth out the kinks and boost your confidence.

I am more nervous about taking Dr. calls then counseling....you can practice both these things with your preceptor. And if you have kinks, the pharmacist will help you straighten them out. Dr.'s terrify me just because they can be impatient...patients are more forgiving (yes they are impatient too, but they are often not under as much stress and pressure as the physicians with the stack of 100 pharmacy calls )

Not in response to drug dealer, USN gets a bad rap for not having "labs" but really we do have these things, just labeled differently. For example, what drug dealer mentioned, practicing about counseling, etc...we have a Pharmacy Communications class where we have to present a drug to either 20 students sometimes or even the whole class other times, and this is just the first year. We have done presentations about specific diseases and the a drug used extensively for the treatment of that disease state, etc. The school manages to work this into the block system throughout the years.

Getting back to the original question. Yes pharmacy school has labs. Some are more traditional with lab reports and others are non-traditional and not even called lab. IMO, these pharmacy school labs are better than undergrad because you are actually learning things that are relevant to the profession. Also IMO, the material is personally interesting.

 

[ForgetMeNot]

I am more nervous about taking Dr. calls then counseling....you can practice both these things with your preceptor. And if you have kinks, the pharmacist will help you straighten them out. Dr.'s terrify me just because they can be impatient...patients are more forgiving (yes they are impatient too, but they are often not under as much stress and pressure as the physicians with the stack of 100 pharmacy calls )

Keep in mind that quite often it's not the actual physician who calls in medications during the day.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I am more nervous about taking Dr. calls then counseling....you can practice both these things with your preceptor. And if you have kinks, the pharmacist will help you straighten them out. Dr.'s terrify me just because they can be impatient...patients are more forgiving (yes they are impatient too, but they are often not under as much stress and pressure as the physicians with the stack of 100 pharmacy calls )

I used to be extremely scared about this part of it too, but then my preceptor bottom-lined it for me. He said, "When a doctor or someone from their office calls to use our services, WE are the boss." This was after I let a doctor get off the phone with me without providing all the info we needed to fill the script.

I think it's inherent in how we view doctors in our society - they really are revered, maybe too much so. But the pharmacy is the domain of the pharmacist. The pharmacist decides if, when and how to fill the script. The doctor must supply the right information and must cooperate with the pharmacist if they want their patient to get the drug.

Case in point. Got a phoned in prescription from a gas doc on Friday afternoon. Controlled substances script for his FATHER. Pharmacist doesn't like it. Tells me to call the doctor back (on his cell) with a few questions. Doctor is kind of dick with me. So I calmly tell him, "Dr. Dick in order for us to fill this prescription for your father's controls, I am going to need to get some information from you." In my mind I'm chanting, "I'm the BOSS, I'm the BOSS, I'm the BOSS," because yeah, it makes me nervous. But I think I handled it OK. The pharmacist was satisfied, both by my performance and the doctor's explanation. So the script got filled.

Good learning experience.

 

[dgroulx]

Some of what is being described as labs is what we do in regular class. Learning to counsel is done all throughout therapeutics, as well as a special class called communications. We have a class every semester in years 1 & 2 called Practicum. It's basically getting your feet wet in a pharmacy (both retail & hospital).

Our classes called "labs" aren't until year 3. Last semester we practiced using every device possible, trying each blood glucose meter and learning how each one worked, different blood pressure cuffs, pregnancy tests, injecting ourselves with saline, testing INR, testing FEV, practiced using each type of inhaler, etc. Each week we also had to make up our own case dealing with the disease state of the week. Each case had to have at least 4 disease states, be on 4 meds + 1 OTC. They were a pain in the butt. We also worked in our "fake pharmacy". We mainly set up things in the computer, learned to verify, use the DUR screen, etc.

This semester I have compounding lab. Each week we are assigned 2 to 3 products to make. We have pre-lab questions and we must fill out our compounding sheet, including all calculations, before class. We also have a UF label template for Word. Our labels have to be printed and brought to class. This class is fun. This week I'm making Zinc Oxide 17% ointment and Sulfur 4%/Salicylic Acid 2% ointment. We make our product, place them in the appropriate container, label them, then shine them up so there are no fingerprints. We've made various capsules & solutions and will finish up with suppositories. Fitting for the "end" lab.

 

[ultracet]

All4MyDaughter:
Your posts have been very interesting to me... in both AL and VA the only ones who are allowed to counsel and take dr. calls (rxs over the phone etc) are the pharmacist/intern and an intern is defined by someone who is currently enrolled in pharmacy school too.

is the law not like that where you are??

i know we've beaten the should you be counseling horse to death so i don't even want to go there...

i'm just curious

 

[All4MyDaughter]

All4MyDaughter:
Your posts have been very interesting to me... in both AL and VA the only ones who are allowed to counsel and take dr. calls (rxs over the phone etc) are the pharmacist/intern and an intern is defined by someone who is currently enrolled in pharmacy school too.

is the law not like that where you are??

i know we've beaten the should you be counseling horse to death so i don't even want to go there...

i'm just curious

bbmuffin:

I don't mind answering your questions.

In Kentucky an intern is someone who is enrolled or accepted to pharmacy school. So I got my intern card after I got my acceptance letter from UK in October of 2005.

I know there are different opinions on this message board about whether or not I should be an intern, should be counseling, etc.

Kentucky law says:
I can be an intern because I have been accepted to pharmacy school.
Interns are supposed to spend 2/3 of their time counseling and processing scripts.
The preceptor is responsible for training and supervising the intern.


As far as how it works in real life, I'm on an appropriately short leash. If I counsel, the pharmacist is always there to listen and add info I may have missed. If I compound, the pharmacist checks each step as I go. At my old store, all the pharmacists hated doing the FlavorRX stuff, so I was appointed to be the "flavorer." But I always told the pharmacist how much of the different flavors/enhancers I was going to use and got my calculations approved in advance.

 

[ultracet]

bbmuffin:

I don't mind answering your questions.

In Kentucky an intern is someone who is enrolled or accepted to pharmacy school. So I got my intern card after I got my acceptance letter from UK in October of 2005.

I know there are different opinions on this message board about whether or not I should be an intern, should be counseling, etc.

Kentucky law says:
I can be an intern because I have been accepted to pharmacy school.
Interns are supposed to spend 2/3 of their time counseling and processing scripts.
The preceptor is responsible for training and supervising the intern.


As far as how it works in real life, I'm on an appropriately short leash. If I counsel, the pharmacist is always there to listen and add info I may have missed. If I compound, the pharmacist checks each step as I go. At my old store, all the pharmacists hated doing the FlavorRX stuff, so I was appointed to be the "flavorer." But I always told the pharmacist how much of the different flavors/enhancers I was going to use and got my calculations approved in advance.

ok that's cool!

i just didn't know what KY law stated!

wonder if the majority of states require enrollment or just acceptance

i love the flavorrx stuff...
as far as calculations.... well the last rph i worked with that had me flavor just said... ehh it can't get too sweet

 

[kristakoch]

One thing that worries me about the schools with no lab time is where are they going to learn how to make IVs, chemo, etc. You realyl have to be able to do that in a controlled lab environment to learn the technique, which is an art more than a science. And since we all know that it is very rare that a pharmacist actually does the IV admixtures in hsopitals, they won't get the experience at all. And you need to have that experience to properly check or potentially do an IV on a STAT order when there is no tech around when you are a pharmacist, that class is indespensible.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

ok that's cool!

i just didn't know what KY law stated!

wonder if the majority of states require enrollment or just acceptance

i love the flavorrx stuff...
as far as calculations.... well the last rph i worked with that had me flavor just said... ehh it can't get too sweet

Kentucky law has changed at some point in the not too distant past. Not sure though. You get 50 states, and probably 50 different laws!

I like the flavor stuff too. The other day I made some omeprazole suspension and flavored it grape for two little baby girls with reflux. Sad thing is, it took me longer to get their PA from the insurance company than it did to make the meds. Insurance is the PITS.

 

[alwaystired]

ok that's cool!

i just didn't know what KY law stated!

wonder if the majority of states require enrollment or just acceptance

i love the flavorrx stuff...
as far as calculations.... well the last rph i worked with that had me flavor just said... ehh it can't get too sweet

NV requires enrollment.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

The lab at WVU is basically where they throw everything they need to teach us that doesn't quite fit into the other classes. Compounding, global case studies, journal clubs, etc.

 

[SomeGuy]

Well, I'm only in the first year of my program, but we have the following labs:

1. Simulated Patient Interactions in our communications class. Here, we introduce ourselves, get info on the patient and knowledge of the drug, explain what they need to know, promise to followup and say goodbye. As we progress in the year, they throw in twists, like patients that are emotionally unstable for whatever reason, or can't figure out a way of remembering to take their meds 5x/day.

2. Orgo labs. 'Nuff said

3. Simulated Patient Interactions for our dispensing lab class. Here, we're somewhat doing the above, but also educating on various medication forms, like suppositories, inhalers, creams etc.

4. Computer Dispensing Labs. We take verbal scripts where they "forget" to give us a lot of the info we need, so we have to get it. Also, written scripts and re-checking scripts for errors. We just enter everything into the computer and make the labels. We have to check references to make sure we put on proper auxiliary stickers. Let's just say that the computer system has a number of quirks, especially with regards to how big a unit is.

5. Community Site Visits, where we visit a pharmacy four times throughout the term to observe and complete various tasks. Haven't started this yet, but luckily I was placed in a close-by location!

 

[dgroulx]

One thing that worries me about the schools with no lab time is where are they going to learn how to make IVs, chemo, etc. You realyl have to be able to do that in a controlled lab environment to learn the technique, which is an art more than a science. And since we all know that it is very rare that a pharmacist actually does the IV admixtures in hsopitals, they won't get the experience at all. And you need to have that experience to properly check or potentially do an IV on a STAT order when there is no tech around when you are a pharmacist, that class is indespensible.

Maybe they have a mandatory hospital practice rotation. They can learn it then.

 

[kristakoch]

Maybe they have a mandatory hospital practice rotation. They can learn it then.

Even if they have a hospital practice rotation, chances are they will not do it there. It is pretty rare that on rotation you do any IV admixtures, especially if you are at a large hospital. Where I had my advanced hospital rotation, I did do IV admixtures, but that was because they are very slow. I know people who were at large hospitals who just basically watched what was going on all day. It would be very very hard to conduct quality assurance on all of their sites to make sure the student gets the practice. Just beciase it says they should be doing it in their manual doesn't mean they will be. You will see this when you start rotations.
Also, there is no way I would want to do my first IVs at a hsopital rotation with real products. You should be given the chance to practice (as much as possible) with saline or expired products at school where a teacher can watch you and help you.