what are my chances?

[kela1100]

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graduated in 2004 with b.a. in biology...was pre-med but abandoned the idea b/c i thought my grades were too low...now rethinking the whole thing...

cumulative gpa: 3.03 (upward trend in last 4 semesters...3.00, 3.65, 3.68, 3.68)
science gpa: 2.7

current masters student with one semester completed (courses were intro to biotech and concepts in pharmaceutical sciences...gpa=4.0....currently taking molecular cell bio)

work full time in pharmaceutical industry

still need to do a second semester in orgo to fufill prereqs and take MCAT...should i even bother?

 

[blee]

Do you really want to be a doctor? If you do, you could stand a reasonable chance of getting in. People here and elsewhere have been successful with stats similar or worse than yours.

You have an upward trend in GPA, which is good. your science GPA is quite low, but mine was lower. Your grad school record is nice, but don't expect the 4.0 to carry nearly as much weight as your undergrad transcript. You will need to complete your pre-reqs, take the MCAT, and prepare your application. If you really want this, then don't give up!

 

[happydays]

yeah, every adcom knows that grad school classes are super easy. (Yes, they are, in terms of getting an A.)

Do well on the MCAT, get some more meaningful EC's in, and you should be fine. Good luck!

 

[Beau Geste]

yeah, every adcom knows that grad school classes are super easy. (Yes, they are, in terms of getting an A.)

No, they're not. At least they weren't in my program. Several failed out.

 

[GradTX]

yeah, every adcom knows that grad school classes are super easy. (Yes, they are, in terms of getting an A.)

Do well on the MCAT, get some more meaningful EC's in, and you should be fine. Good luck!

Easy? Out of my class of around 40, less than 5 have stayed to take qualifying exams. *cough*

 

[t33sg1rl]

Keep your chin up, because your story is just like mine!

I graduated in 2001 with a 3.0 overall, 2.7 science. I'd started premed but changed my major to Drinking&Partying after freshman year. My trend was a good freshman year, awful middle year, and reasonable last year (I graduated a year early).

After undergrad, I took a job as a research assistant at a large respected university. My first year out, I didn't take any classes (I was a little burned out by academics!) but after that I took 1-2 classes a semester (luckily, I could take courses for free as a full-time employee). My grad GPA was 3.6 over 12 credit hours (and yes, grad GPA is just as important as undergrad!!!)

I met with the director of admissions after being interviewed and promptly rejected from my first choice school, and here's what she said:
First of all, the school had no concerns about my grades. The poor undergraduate record was completely compensated by graduate work (proving that I was capable of paying attention in class) and strong science MCATs (11 physics, 13 bio) proving that I did, in fact, know the prerequisite basic sciences (in spite of C's in more science classes than I care to count).
The worst thing in my record, according to Ms. Admissions, and the reason for the rejection, was that I didn't adequately explain my poor undergrad years, and combined with a 38 MCAT, she said I came across as looking for a "free pass" based only on MCATs. But, her overall message was that I was a very strong applicant, and if I didn't get in somewhere else that year, she looked forward to admitting me the following year.

So take heart, wait another year or two before applying, ace the MCAT, get good research/clinical experiences. That's where your recommendation letters will be from-I can tell you, it's an awkward email that begins, "Dear Dr. X, I was in your Organic Chemistry class six years ago and got a C. Can you please write me a recommendation letter for medical school?"

Good luck!

 

[relentless11]

yeah, every adcom knows that grad school classes are super easy. (Yes, they are, in terms of getting an A.)

Do well on the MCAT, get some more meaningful EC's in, and you should be fine. Good luck!

"Every" is a strong word. I believe this view is inaccurate. I have been fortunate enough to take med school general pathology, and grad school systemic pathology. The grad course was a lot harder. I'm sure fellow grad students on here can echo this notion. Any grad program worth its salt is harder than undergrad in terms of getting an A. A motivating factor is a C is considered failing, and in many programs, you can be kicked out of the program for getting one C.

Therefore, comparing undergrad vs. grad grades is like comparing apples and oranges. Its not because one is easier than the other. To assume so would be misguided. The reason that undergrad grades are weight more is the fact that most people apply with ONLY undergrad courses. Weighting the undergrad grades allows for some set standard to compare students (along with MCAT scores).

Regardless, one must always try to boost undergrad grades, even in a graduate program. I have been lucky to be allowed to take undergrad courses as electives, even as a PhD student. These undergrad grades will count as post-bacc according to our med school. This may be something to look into.

In a nutshell....in response to the original poster, if you feel that your application is deficient in terms of undergrad GPA, then take more undergrad classes to show adcoms that this is no longer the truth. High grades in grad courses are probably worth more than EC's, especially grad course in sciences...and as t33sg1rl stated, the adcoms saw her grad performance as redeeming her undergrad GPA.

The adcoms can't question your grades if you did 1-2 years of post-bacc and got a 3.5+ combined with 3.5+ of graduate courses in say...pharmacology/toxicology, pathology, chemistry, biochemistry, etc. Just keep it up, and push hard! Don't give up! 🙂

 

[gardengirl]

graduated in 2004 with b.a. in biology...was pre-med but abandoned the idea b/c i thought my grades were too low...now rethinking the whole thing...

cumulative gpa: 3.03 (upward trend in last 4 semesters...3.00, 3.65, 3.68, 3.68)
science gpa: 2.7

current masters student with one semester completed (courses were intro to biotech and concepts in pharmaceutical sciences...gpa=4.0....currently taking molecular cell bio)

work full time in pharmaceutical industry

still need to do a second semester in orgo to fufill prereqs and take MCAT...should i even bother?

If you want it bad enough, you'll make it happen. Don't let anything stand in the way. Best of luck to you!

 

[happydays]

"Every" is a strong word. I believe this view is inaccurate. I have been fortunate enough to take med school general pathology, and grad school systemic pathology. The grad course was a lot harder. I'm sure fellow grad students on here can echo this notion. Any grad program worth its salt is harder than undergrad in terms of getting an A. A motivating factor is a C is considered failing, and in many programs, you can be kicked out of the program for getting one C.

Therefore, comparing undergrad vs. grad grades is like comparing apples and oranges. Its not because one is easier than the other. To assume so would be misguided. The reason that undergrad grades are weight more is the fact that most people apply with ONLY undergrad courses. Weighting the undergrad grades allows for some set standard to compare students (along with MCAT scores).

Not EVERY, but from taking grad classes and talking to grad students, a B- is considered a failing grade. Most people get A's. A's are given out to a lot more people than undergrad classes. (in a grad class, 50% A's, in my undergrad classes 15~25% A's. Cold hard facts.) The material is harder, but it's easier to get A's.

Put it this way: the people at my school who want an easy A take the grad classes in the med school. Competition is far less than our undergrad classes.

This is my experience, perhaps it's not true every where, but I know that people tend to get higher grades in grad school.

 

[relentless11]

Most people get A's. A's are given out to a lot more people than undergrad classes. (in a grad class, 50% A's, in my undergrad classes 15~25% A's. Cold hard facts.) The material is harder, but it's easier to get A's.

It really depends on the class you take. I agree we do see more A's in our courses, but it does not neccessarily mean it is easier. In fact undergraduates have taken our classes under special permission, and some did not even pass the class. Vice versa, some of our graduate students have taken upper division undergrad courses (including me), and thought those were a lot easier to get A's in compared to the grad courses.

Put it this way: the people at my school who want an easy A take the grad classes in the med school. Competition is far less than our undergrad classes. This is my experience, perhaps it's not true every where, but I know that people tend to get higher grades in grad school.

Indeed, this is YOUR experience, at your school. As you can see, the majority of those that replied did not have the same experience. Academic standards vary between schools, the classes you take, and the program you are in. Based on your assumptions and observations that people at your school who want an easy A take grad classes in the med school, I do not think this is adequate to make an all encompassing assumption that "every adcom knows grad school classes are super easy". Considering the director of our MSTP would kindly disagree.

Anyway in regards to the original poster, I suggest you find the mentor thread. There are a few people in here who would have very useful information regarding grad-->MD related things. I have spoken to a few, and they have been very helpful. It appears that many of them had similar experiences to t33sg1rl, where grad grades made up for deficiencies in undergrad GPA. Something to think about kela1100, since you are taking biotech, and pharm courses.

 

[Beau Geste]

You could also argue that those in a Master's or Doctoral level program are probably pretty serious students anyway and SHOULD get A's and B's. Graduate programs are a good way to weed out good students from bad. Many undergraduate students are either taking a class to fulfill a gen ed requirement or to fulfill a major requirement - either one they need to pass to graduate. Not all are concerned about graduate education. Most grad students ARE concerned with their performance.

 

[NeuroResearch]

Hi, I agree with Megboo. Graduate course grades appear inflated, and so the conclusion that many draw is that it is "easy" to get A's in graduate-level courses.

I speak as a doctoral student in a pretty competetive neuroscience program: 1) Any grade less than a B is considered failing in our program/department and in the Graduate School, so everyone works very hard. 2) We got into our program because we truly care about the subject matter, so we know our stuff & if we don't, we study hard to know it, thus making B or below grades highly unlikely. 3) While we may not get less than a B, the distance between an A and B is "compressed," such that one still needs to work hard to get that A (as opposed to an A- or a B+).

In the end, however, what matters in Grad school is our research and how many high profile papers we manage to publish. If med schools don't trust "inflated" Grad school grades, then they ought to look carefully at the publication record.

 

[JimmyG]

Ditto Megboo and Neuro--As aren't just given out in grad school. Typically the students in a graduate program are the ones who work the hardest in the area they desire to study. Usually it is the subject they are studying that inspires them to do well or they have a history of good academic performance prior to being accepted to a graduate program.

Nothing like grad school to make the "smart" kids feel average...

 

[happydays]

Here's what LizzyM (an adcom member) just said:

Master's programs have the "grade inflation" problem... no one gets less than a 3.0 in a master's program (it would be grounds for dismissal in many programs) and therefore even good grades are pretty much meaningless.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=3421369&postcount=4

 

[QofQuimica]

Ditto Megboo and Neuro--As aren't just given out in grad school. Typically the students in a graduate program are the ones who work the hardest in the area they desire to study. Usually it is the subject they are studying that inspires them to do well or they have a history of good academic performance prior to being accepted to a graduate program.

Nothing like grad school to make the "smart" kids feel average...

I agree too. I'd say that a B is the most common grade that most people earn in grad school. I've attended two graduate programs, and in my experience, you have to bust your butt to get an A. My MS GPA was a 3.5, and it wasn't because I didn't work hard! At my current school, they have one of those ridiculous +/- systems. Getting an A+ is so hard that I've only managed to do it once in my 4.5 years here. Again, most people get Bs through A-s.

One other thing to consider that some of you already mentioned is that the attrition in grad school is really high. Almost everyone who starts med school graduates, but the majority of people who start grad school toward a Ph.D. drop out or are forced out with MS degrees or no degrees at all. I've seen it happen to a lot of people.

Here's what LizzyM (an adcom member) just said:

Master's programs have the "grade inflation" problem... no one gets less than a 3.0 in a master's program (it would be grounds for dismissal in many programs) and therefore even good grades are pretty much meaningless.

LizzyM is either being ambiguous or else she's plain wrong. Nothing against her; she gives a lot of useful advice, but if she actually meant that all grad school *matriculants* pull 3.0s, she's mistaken. People frequently DO get below a 3.0 in graduate programs, and then they go on academic probation for a semester. If they don't bring their grades back up above a 3.0, they flunk out of school. If she meant that all GRADUATES of graduate programs have 3.0 GPAs or better, then that is true. But that's to their credit, not because their classes were easy. Just imagine how many of your college classmates would flunk out of school if only the people with GPAs of 3.0 or better were allowed to continue on the following semester.

 

[happydays]

"even good grades are meaningless" in a masters program. You don't have to believe it, even if it did just come from an adcom member. The grad students at my lab says that in our PhD program, a B- is failing, verses that's the average in some of our undergrad classes. Plus, I never said that grad classes are easy; I said that it's easier to get good grades.

 

[QofQuimica]

"even good grades are meaningless" in a masters program. You don't have to believe it, even if it did just come from an adcom member. The grad students at my lab says that in our PhD program, a B- is failing, verses that's the average in some of our undergrad classes. Plus, I never said that grad classes are easy; I said that it's easier to get good grades.

This is not about belief; I'm LIVING through it. It don't get no realer than this.

The thought also occurs to me that she might specifically be referring to those MS programs geared toward people to bring up their grades if they have poor undergrad GPAs. I'll be pretty surprised if she's talking about all grad programs in general. But if she is, well, like I said, I respect her opinion about many things, but I flat-out think she's wrong about this one. (shrug)

 

[LabMonster]

graduated in 2004 with b.a. in biology...was pre-med but abandoned the idea b/c i thought my grades were too low...now rethinking the whole thing...

cumulative gpa: 3.03 (upward trend in last 4 semesters...3.00, 3.65, 3.68, 3.68)
science gpa: 2.7

current masters student with one semester completed (courses were intro to biotech and concepts in pharmaceutical sciences...gpa=4.0....currently taking molecular cell bio)

work full time in pharmaceutical industry

still need to do a second semester in orgo to fufill prereqs and take MCAT...should i even bother?

Returning the thread to the op - yes it is possible. You'll have to work insane hours, you'll be tired all the time etc etc. Consider it pre-training for residency

Check out my MDApp page - and I didn't do a post bacc. Good luck 👍

 

[Sundarban1]

Plus, I never said that grad classes are easy.

Really...

grad school classes are super easy.

Spoken by someone who:
A.) Has never taken a graduate class in their life and/or
B.) Chose a super easy field to get a graduate degree in

I, however graduated from one of the top programs in the North East in biomedical science and can tell you that what you are saying is 100% crap.

Have a good one 😎

 

[happydays]

Really...



Spoken by someone who:
A.) Has never taken a graduate class in their life and/or
B.) Chose a super easy field to get a graduate degree in

I, however graduated from one of the top programs in the North East in biomedical science and can tell you that what you are saying is 100% crap.

Have a good one 😎

And next to "grad classes are super easy" I said "in terms of getting an A." Don't even try!

Plus, how do you know I've never taken grad classes? I have, and I've done much much better in those than some of my intro classes. And those classes are grad CHEM classes, so no, it's not an easy subject.

 

[QofQuimica]

And next to "grad classes are super easy" I said "in terms of getting an A." Don't even try!

Plus, how do you know I've never taken grad classes? I have, and I've done much much better in those than some of my intro classes. And those classes are grad CHEM classes, so no, it's not an easy subject.

Come on, guys, can't we all just get along? Maybe graduate classes really are graded easier than undergrad classes at happy's school. If they are, maybe I should transfer there.

I agree that this thread got way off-topic. OP, my suggestion would be that you contact the admissions office of your state medical school and talk to them about how to make your app as competitive as you can. I wish you the best of

 

[happydays]

Come on, guys, can't we all just get along? Maybe graduate classes really are graded easier than undergrad classes at happy's school. If they are, maybe I should transfer there.

I agree that this thread got way off-topic. OP, my suggestion would be that you contact the admissions office of your state medical school and talk to them about how to make your app as competitive as you can. I wish you the best of

Come on over to UMich! 🙂