What are some medical school "red flags"

[el_duderino]

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Correct. Keep in mind that a bad semester can tank a year, but I';ll see that one might have a bad Fall, but recover by Spring.

So you follow performance based on years not semesters?

Not true. AdComs don't know who has a committee and who doesn't. This is another pre-med urban legend.
Not having a pre-medical committee letter is a red flag (in most cases).

Urban legend? At least a few schools I applied to specifically said they strongly recommend a committee letter, and at least one secondary I filled out asked me to explain why I didn't submit a committee letter, if I didn't.

 

[Goro]

True, but it's not a universal requirement. Just from my experience, in >10 years, never once has a committee LOR vs individual LORs ever been raised as an issue about a candidate in our Adcom meetings.

So the take-home is: do your homework as to what the school requires.

It's more of a red flag if you apply to a school that requires a committee letter and you don't submit one...That says one has trouble following instructions, or think that rules don't apply to them. Those are red flags!

Urban legend? At least a few schools I applied to specifically said they strongly recommend a committee letter, and at least one secondary I filled out asked me to explain why I didn't submit a committee letter, if I didn't.

 

[mehc012]

Strongly disagreeing. Uncouth is a problem for someone applying to a professional position.

Starring in a porn movie is legal, can be lucrative, and is certainly an interesting and potentially 'once in a lifetime' opportunity. Should a prospective medical student do it?

Nose-picking is merely uncouth. Yet somehow, it seems to be regarded as a problem...

Yes, they should, if they have the chance and the job itself does not bother them personally. It in no way impacts their ability to be a doctor, and it's a shame that they would be looked down on for trying to be fiscally responsible and earn money to do what they need for their actual intended career.

Nose-picking isn't considered uncouth, it's considered gross since you have to touch their hands. Plus, that brings up some serious hand-washing concerns (hmm...this person just picked their nose, flicked it, and then tried to touch me. I wonder if they'll wash between patients).

 

[LizzyM]

Not true. AdComs don't know who has a committee and who doesn't. This is another pre-med urban legend.
Not having a pre-medical committee letter is a red flag (in most cases).

Some adcoms do know which of its feeder schools have a committee letter. I know that Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Princeton, Penn, Hopkins, Duke and Emory (just to run my hand down the east coast) have a letter. There are others that don't come to mind at the moment. If you are from a school that is a known feeder for a specific medical school (e.g. there are more than 15 applicants per year from that school) and your school has a committee and you don't use the committee, it will be noted.

 

[Goro]

At my school, this may be the realm of our wily old Admissions Dean. But even if it is, he never, ever let's us know if it's an issue.

Some adcoms do know which of its feeder schools have a committee letter. I know that Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Princeton, Penn, Hopkins, Duke and Emory (just to run my hand down the east coast) have a letter. There are others that don't come to mind at the moment. If you are from a school that is a known feeder for a specific medical school (e.g. there are more than 15 applicants per year from that school) and your school has a committee and you don't use the committee, it will be noted.

 

[plumazul]

Some adcoms do know which of its feeder schools have a committee letter. I know that Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Princeton, Penn, Hopkins, Duke and Emory (just to run my hand down the east coast) have a letter. There are others that don't come to mind at the moment. If you are from a school that is a known feeder for a specific medical school (e.g. there are more than 15 applicants per year from that school) and your school has a committee and you don't use the committee, it will be noted.

Really? None of the several outstanding east coast publics on your list of "feeder schools"? smh

 

[LizzyM]

Really? None of the several outstanding east coast publics on your list of "feeder schools"? smh

They might be feeder schools but they don't come to mind as quickly with regard to committee or composite letters.

 

[plumazul]

They might be feeder schools but they don't come to mind as quickly with regard to committee or composite letters.

If you do consider the following to be feeder schools, you can add Rutgers, Maryland and Penn State to your list of east coast schools that offer committee letters.

 

[mehc012]

If you do consider the following to be feeder schools, you can add Rutgers, Maryland and Penn State to your list of east coast schools that offer committee letters.

Guys, the point wasn't "list all schools with committee letters" or "make sure LizzyM includes my school because she is at a prestigious institution and therefore being a feeder to her school is a good sign". It was just an example that some schools DO pay attention to such things and that adcoms at those schools do have a mental list of "schools which I usually see a committee letter from". Jeez, there was even a caveat in the initial post by Lizzy that this is not a comprehensive list, just the ones on the tip of her tongue.

 

[LizzyM]

If you do consider the following to be feeder schools, you can add Rutgers, Maryland and Penn State to your list of east coast schools that offer committee letters.

duly noted.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

Disciplinary actions for cheating, alcohol, drugs. Failing courses or semesters. Academic dismissal. Periods of time unaccounted for. Getting fired from a job. Retaking the MCAT a very short time after getting a poor, and getting a similar score. Padding GPA with fluff classes, or community college classes.

Getting fired from a job really?

 

[mehc012]

Getting fired from a job really?

How is that NOT a red flag?
Hell, that's a red flag for an application to Chipotle...it's just easy to leave off your app. There's no way for them to see all the jobs you've ever had, and even if you list a position you were fired from, they would have to specifically call your reference (not going to happen) and ask, which they can't do.
So, yeah...aside from whether being fired should be a red flag at all (it should), it's definitely a warning sign if someone is shortsighted enough to put something non-required which looks bad into their app.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

How is that NOT a red flag?
Hell, that's a red flag for an application to Chipotle...it's just easy to leave off your app. There's no way for them to see all the jobs you've ever had, and even if you list a position you were fired from, they would have to specifically call your reference (not going to happen) and ask, which they can't do.
So, yeah...aside from whether being fired should be a red flag at all (it should), it's definitely a warning sign if someone is shortsighted enough to put something non-required which looks bad into their app.

True story: I got fired from a volunteer clinical activity. And I really want to put the activity on the application (the bring fired part) not so much. How do I go about this?

 

[mehc012]

True story: I got fired from a volunteer clinical activity. And I really want to put the activity on the application (the bring fired part) not so much. How do I go about this?

That's what I'm saying...you can put the activity on and they will be none the wiser that you were fired unless they actually call (which they likely won't) and ask about something other than 'did Bob work here and how many hours?'
If your app in some way shows that you were fired, it's either through a poor decision when you put the app together or some bizarre set of circumstances which required you to explain why you quit volunteering.

 

[Plecopotamus]

True, but it's not a universal requirement. Just from my experience, in >10 years, never once has a committee LOR vs individual LORs ever been raised as an issue about a candidate in our Adcom meetings.

Goro, I think that this is one of those areas in which your experience varies due to being at an osteopathic school (maybe b/c you welcome so many applications from individuals who are in a variety of circumstances that make them ineligible for or make it impractical to obtain one). I have seen several threads in which you have said it's no big deal not to have the support of your school's committee in spite of others chiming in to disagree. Now that LizzyM has weighed in on this, please consider that similar to physician LORs, this is one realm in which allopathic and osteopathic adcoms might weigh things differently.

I think enough MD programs are like LizzyM's that it does SDNers a disservice to call it a myth or suggest it only matters at schools where it is explicitly required -- many allopathic programs make it clear that it is very strongly recommended (and we wouldn't ignore strong recs in just about any other part of the app). The wiggle room that exists seems to be for non-trads and people with extenuating circumstances, but they are often expected to explain a missing committee letter in the secondary. If applicants from one's school are known to typically have the letter, lacking one must at least give pause -- did the committee not support the applicant? why? was the applicant unable to provide materials to the adcom in a timely fashion? what does it say about the applicant that he's choosing to apply without the letter instead of waiting a year and applying with it? I don't know how much it could hurt an applicant, but I really don't want someone here to be hurt by applying without a letter instead of waiting a cycle to get one, b/c your advice and that of all the adcoms on here is taken very seriously by the pre-meds.

 

[Goro]

Duly noted.

Goro, I think that this is one of those areas in which your experience varies due to being at an osteopathic school (maybe b/c you welcome so many applications from individuals who are in a variety of circumstances that make them ineligible for or make it impractical to obtain one). I have seen several threads in which you have said it's no big deal not to have the support of your school's committee in spite of others chiming in to disagree. Now that LizzyM has weighed in on this, please consider that similar to physician LORs, this is one realm in which allopathic and osteopathic adcoms might weigh things differently.

I think enough MD programs are like LizzyM's that it does SDNers a disservice to call it a myth or suggest it only matters at schools where it is explicitly required -- many allopathic programs make it clear that it is very strongly recommended (and we wouldn't ignore strong recs in just about any other part of the app). The wiggle room that exists seems to be for non-trads and people with extenuating circumstances, but they are often expected to explain a missing committee letter in the secondary. If applicants from one's school are known to typically have the letter, lacking one must at least give pause -- did the committee not support the applicant? why? was the applicant unable to provide materials to the adcom in a timely fashion? what does it say about the applicant that he's choosing to apply without the letter instead of waiting a year and applying with it? I don't know how much it could hurt an applicant, but I really don't want someone here to be hurt by applying without a letter instead of waiting a cycle to get one, b/c your advice and that of all the adcoms on here is taken very seriously by the pre-meds.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

what does it say about the applicant that he's choosing to apply without the letter instead of waiting a year and applying with it?

If you're an older non-trad, say 40+ years old, by the time you finish you could be 50 years old, giving you maybe 15 years of solid practice. Each year you put off roughly equates to 6-7% of your total future lifetime earnings, not factoring in what is left over after the exorbitant debt you have taken on. Would you wait another year just for a committee letter or just run with what you have if you think you can get in with your current application?

 

[Plecopotamus]

If you're an older non-trad, say 40+ years old, by the time you finish you could be 50 years old, giving you maybe 15 years of solid practice. Each year you put off roughly equates to 6-7% of your total future lifetime earnings, not factoring in what is left over after the exorbitant debt you have taken on. Would you wait another year just for a committee letter or just run with what you have if you think you can get in with your current application?

<Sigh>
I specifically noted that there is "wiggle room for non-trads and people with extenuating circumstances", which is why those people can and do get exempted from needing them plenty of times once it is explained in the secondary. The problem arises for people who don't have a good reason, which would primarily be traditional applicants applying without one but coming from a well known school with a committee. Nonetheless, a 40+-year-old applicant in a well known, formal postbacc or SMP trying to forgo a committee letter is going to stand out negatively. Whether it would be worth it to him to submit an app he knows doesn't put his best foot forward after investing so much time and money would be dependent on numerous factors that may have personal or financial consequences (uprooting kids and an employed spouse if you hurt your shot at the local/affiliated schools).

I don't want to derail this thread further. I was just commenting to Goro, b/c there have been some mixed messages.
FWIW, I do not like committee letters and wish they'd be abandoned.

 

[listener23]

In terms of fluff classes like 100 level science classes... Will they forgive you if you mix them with high 300 level science classes

@Catalystik

 

[Fedaykin]

Starring in porn between college and potential med school matriculation

Supporting roles to the star are acceptable?

 

[Catalystik]

In terms of fluff classes like 100 level science classes... Will they forgive you if you mix them with high 300 level science classes

@Catalystik

You might get by with Astronomy.

 

[stranger1]

Some adcoms do know which of its feeder schools have a committee letter. I know that Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Cornell, NYU, Princeton, Penn, Hopkins, Duke and Emory (just to run my hand down the east coast) have a letter. There are others that don't come to mind at the moment. If you are from a school that is a known feeder for a specific medical school (e.g. there are more than 15 applicants per year from that school) and your school has a committee and you don't use the committee, it will be noted.

Hi LizzyM,

Not to go off topic, but I went to one of the schools on your list. I was told not to use a committee letter if I graduated 2+ years ago since it won't be that helpful. Is it still a red flag if you aren't applying as a senior or a recent grad?

 

[LizzyM]

Send a separate letter or add something to your secondary making that statement. Some applicants go back to their alma mater for an interview to up date the committee. If you've been out of school two years and employed you can always substitute an employers letter ... of course you still need two science professors at most schools which means going back (at least electronically) to your college anyway.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

<Sigh>
I specifically noted that there is "wiggle room for non-trads and people with extenuating circumstances", which is why those people can and do get exempted from needing them plenty of times once it is explained in the secondary. The problem arises for people who don't have a good reason, which would primarily be traditional applicants applying without one but coming from a well known school with a committee. Nonetheless, a 40+-year-old applicant in a well known, formal postbacc or SMP trying to forgo a committee letter is going to stand out negatively. Whether it would be worth it to him to submit an app he knows doesn't put his best foot forward after investing so much time and money would be dependent on numerous factors that may have personal or financial consequences (uprooting kids and an employed spouse if you hurt your shot at the local/affiliated schools).

I don't want to derail this thread further. I was just commenting to Goro, b/c there have been some mixed messages.
FWIW, I do not like committee letters and wish they'd be abandoned.

Agree and sorry if I came across argumentative, I had a feeling my post was terse after I wrote it and drifted off into sleep. Thanks for the response.

 

[listener23]

You might get by with Astronomy.

Is that it? Because I'm contemplating blatantly taking a 100 intro to to bio course next semester along with my biochem and microbiology (300+ upper levels)

 

[mehc012]

Is that it? Because I'm contemplating blatantly taking a 100 intro to to bio course next semester along with my bio chem and microbiology

Wouldn't that be boring?
I always do poorly in boring classes.

 

[Goro]

It will be OK.

Is that it? Because I'm contemplating blatantly taking a 100 intro to to bio course next semester along with my bio chem and microbiology

 

[listener23]

Wouldn't that be boring?
I always do poorly in boring classes.

Well i do "relatively"poorly (not get an A) in interesting classes that are "hard"(meaning upper levels that have a lot of competition for the A or just a lot of material). A 100 level bio class filled with freshman pre nursing students should be a cake walk

 

[childish93]

Supporting roles to the star are acceptable?

Yes. It shows selflessness and a willingness to work in teams (often double or triple teams) to help others...

 

[Noctámbulo]

Goro, I think that this is one of those areas in which your experience varies due to being at an osteopathic school (maybe b/c you welcome so many applications from individuals who are in a variety of circumstances that make them ineligible for or make it impractical to obtain one). I have seen several threads in which you have said it's no big deal not to have the support of your school's committee in spite of others chiming in to disagree. Now that LizzyM has weighed in on this, please consider that similar to physician LORs, this is one realm in which allopathic and osteopathic adcoms might weigh things differently.

I think enough MD programs are like LizzyM's that it does SDNers a disservice to call it a myth or suggest it only matters at schools where it is explicitly required -- many allopathic programs make it clear that it is very strongly recommended (and we wouldn't ignore strong recs in just about any other part of the app). The wiggle room that exists seems to be for non-trads and people with extenuating circumstances, but they are often expected to explain a missing committee letter in the secondary. If applicants from one's school are known to typically have the letter, lacking one must at least give pause -- did the committee not support the applicant? why? was the applicant unable to provide materials to the adcom in a timely fashion? what does it say about the applicant that he's choosing to apply without the letter instead of waiting a year and applying with it? I don't know how much it could hurt an applicant, but I really don't want someone here to be hurt by applying without a letter instead of waiting a cycle to get one, b/c your advice and that of all the adcoms on here is taken very seriously by the pre-meds.

I go to a large state school that does not offer committee letters. It's a thing. And, while I may not have the advantage of the support, it's certainly not a "red flag."

 

[mehc012]

I go to a large state school that does not offer committee letters. It's a thing. And, while I may not have the advantage of the support, it's certainly not a "red flag."

That's not what people are saying at all. They're saying that IF your school offers a committee letter and you decide not to use it, that can raise eyebrows.
If your school doesn't offer them, you will clearly not be raising eyebrows by not getting one.

 

[Plecopotamus]

I go to a large state school that does not offer committee letters. It's a thing. And, while I may not have the advantage of the support, it's certainly not a "red flag."

If you read my post, you will see that I specifically said (as did LizzyM) this is applicable to schools that offer the committee letters and are well known to the med schools you are applying to, not to someone from a school that doesn't offer them:

If applicants from one's school are known to typically have the letter, lacking one must at least give pause

 

[won'tstop]

I'd add that mentioning one's mental illness can potentially be a red flag. I don't know how such things are best handled in an application, especially as they often play important roles in people's lives, but I do know that there have been a number of SDN threads devoted to them.

are you saying that mentioning a patient's mental illness in the personal statement?

 

[mehc012]

are you saying that mentioning a patient's mental illness in the personal statement?

No (I think...your sentence is rather confusing and incomplete).
It is often risky to mention your own experience with mental illness. Even though it's not uncommon and healthcare professionals should be understanding, there is still stigma.

 

[goft20]

Being banned from SDN is an automatic red flag. True story.

 

[Noctámbulo]

If you read my post, you will see that I specifically said (as did LizzyM) this is applicable to schools that offer the committee letters and are well known to the med schools you are applying to, not to someone from a school that doesn't offer them:

Thanks, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

[Stagg737]

Is that it? Beca
use I'm contemplating blatantly taking a 100 intro to to bio course next semester along with my biochem and microbiology (300+ upper levels)

Fluff classes shouldn't be an issue if you only take a few of them. There is a big difference between taking 3-4 'fluff' classes while in college vs. taking 3-4 fluff classes per year...

For the bolded (community college classes)... really? To clarify my surprise: I thought the conventional wisdom was that one's major doesn't matter. Some majors have more 'fluff' classes than others, no? You think this is a red flag?

It depends on what the classes are and what the rest of your transcript looks like. If you're taking 100 level bio or just general electives to graduate at cc I don't think many schools will care where you take them, after all there are plenty of students who do their first year or two at a cc then transfer. If you're taking upper level classes or classes towards your major (cell bio, organic, genetics, etc.) it would be a red flag. Especially if you get Bs or Cs in gen chem then take orgo at a cc and get As. If you can't get solid grades in higher level undergrad classes, how can you expect Adcoms to think you'll succeed in med school?