What are the chances for an interview? Should I retake the MCAT?

[Malakite]

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Hello everyone,
I need some major advice, I'm in a difficult situation. I am trying to apply to MST Programs, however, I haven't received any interviews. I applied to about 5 MSTP private schools, and one MSTP state school. My research background is decent. Academic Research for about 3 years, 1 publication, several presentations, an undergraduate thesis, and 2 more publications hopefully coming by the end of spring 2009. My AMCAS is good with a solid PS, Research Essay, and MD/PhD Essay. cGPA: 3.93 and sGPA. 4.0. However, the big problem is my MCAT score.

I will be honest, I have taken the MCAT 3 times already. Here is the score summary: 23, 27, and the latest score is a 30. I try to convince myself to forget about the first score because I took it while I had the flu and its drastically below my MCAT average. Im sure everyone knows this by now, but never take a standardized test while sick! 🙁 My average on practice MCATs was in the 29-32 range (that was BEFORE I even took the first one). If there is one thing I would go back and change, that would be how I studied for it. I got the 23 after taking the TPR course, and the 27 and 30 after doing Exam Krackers for only 1.5 months. I probably should have given myself more time to study using Exam Krackers, but the last MCAT date was of course in August so I was pushed for time. Now I am in bad situation b/c I really feel like it is my MCAT score that is holding me back. What are my chances for an MSTP interview? And if I get no interviews, should I retake the MCAT again and reapply?

p.s. I also applied to the MD only programs just in case. I have not heard about those interviews either.

 

[CancerKiller007]

Well your self-diagnosis is right. Your research and GPA are fine (assuming that you have other ECs like volunteering and intramural and such). Your MCAT will be a problem. As a rule of thumb, one needs to get above 32 to be considered competitive at most programs (I would even say above 35 for top 20 programs). I am in smilar situation..in that i am being rejected from top program for the lower MCAT and lack of publication.


And apply broadly....look at most of the successful applicants over here, they all applied to at least 15 schools. 5 is way too low, and to be honest, with lower MCAT score you should have also included MD/PhD programs as well. Do not get hung up on MSTP desiganation. MD/PhD is an MD/PhD regardless of the MSTP designation. I would say apply to 5 dream, 5 reach, and 5 safety.

As for chances for interview, I do not know. My gut says you have very low chance this late in the cycle, but who knows. Anyways, keep you chin up, and reapply next cycle if you are not successful this time around.

 

[CancerKiller007]

OOps i forgot to answer the question: Yes. Retake the MCAT, and try to score above 32 and than reapply next time around. You might want to explain your consecutive low scores in secondary or interview without being defensive about it.

 

[Malakite]

Thanks for the help. Yeah, I guess I will retake the MCAT. I am hoping on getting into the MD program so that I can reapply for the MSTP. Any MCAT tips for a 32+? Verbal is my hardest section. EK helped me a lot for the sciences. Any tips on the verbal section maybe? And if all else fails, does a PS: 13 V: 8-9 BS:12 look bad? Its a 33-34, but uneven.

 

[Jorje286]

PS: 13 V: 8-9 BS:12 look bad? Its a 33-34, but uneven.

That's what I got, and I got 4 interviews even though I applied quite late and I'm international (no publications either). So no you can make it with that score, but you have to apply broadly. I think there's slightly more emphasis on the science sections than on the verbal section, especially if English is not your native language.

 

[CancerKiller007]

Ya I was not implying that it is impossible to get interview with 32, but rather it would be easier to get interviews with higher score and a publication.

 

[Malakite]

Elaborating on one of CancerKiller's comments, would it be reasonable to write a letter to the MD Admissions Offices briefly discussing the adverse factors surrounding the low 23 score?

 

[Ariodant]

Elaborating on one of CancerKiller's comments, would it be reasonable to write a letter to the MD Admissions Offices briefly discussing the adverse factors surrounding the low 23 score?

It may help, but not much. The adcoms want to know what you can potentially achieve, and telling them why your score is low doesn't let them gauge your potential.

 

[CancerKiller007]

I do not think this will help this late in the game. You should have done this in late november early december.

In any case, why do not you write an update letter? You can include all the things you done since the AMCAS submission, and briefly highlight your strengths. In there, you can subtly include your justification for lower score...something like...i am awere that there are many other qualified candidates with higher scores and more publications etc, but you wont find a candidate more committed to physician scientist track.

Hope this helps.

 

[Malakite]

That sounds pretty legit. I notified all the schools a few days ago of current strengths like maintaining my Science GPA; however, yes, I may send a follow up that will include some other things. Thanks for the help

 

[Brokenward]

I agree with CK. I think you have to apply broadly. Low MCAT scores are a serious detriment; but if you can demonstrate a sustained passion for biomedical research, and build a record of success in both the lab and clinic, you still may be considered favorably by ADCOMs. Some programs adhere more strictly to the "objective" interpretation of an applicant's potential by MCAT scores; but others seem to value a holistic impression of an entire application. But whether or not an applicant has "the right stuff," might be a judgment call which is inherently case-by-case. Though I haven't updated my MDapps profile (and intentionally so), I applied to 42 programs, received around 20 immediate rejections, but was granted 15 interviews. My MCAT is 31 and my GPA is right about 3.5. I've been accepted to 6 programs. I guess what I am saying is that there are many ways to stand out as an applicant, the MCAT is one (but not the only) way.

 

[GliaGirl]

I agree, you need to retake the MCAT, and also apply to many more schools. Apply broadly as well. I would suggest at least 5 top 20, 5 top 50, and a few lower ranked schools.

Try what you haven't done yet to improve your MCAT score. I did Kaplan and it worked very well for me. Give yourself a few months to study and do lots of practice tests, especially official AMCAS tests.

 

[itsallthesame]

The way I see it: Think about what you'd think if you were sitting on an adcom.

Person's taken the MCAT 3 times. First score was just plain bad. Second was meh. Third was OK. Even if you get a 40 on the next administration, I personally wouldn't care much. Are you going to take the USMLE's twice before passing? That's a risk people don't want to take. Esp since MD/PhD's have a little more on their plate and tend to fare a little worse with the tests.

You need to convince these people that you are a superstar prospect for being a biomedical researcher. Yes, there are good schools with cut offs. I know of at least one non-MSTP program that will not look at 32 or worse MCATs. You will do this by not applying programs MD only (you could still get in MD only, but it shows a lack of commitment to research to apply MD only). And you will get a better publication record. That means first author pubs in a GOOD journal. If you go first author in a 10+ impact factor journal (think of PNAS as the worst that is acceptable), you'll get in somewhere. That isn't easy to do. You'll have to find a PI who is good and will let you have your own project, and one that is good enough that it would usually go to a post-doc or grad student, and you have to do all of the intellectual and physical work. It's not easy, but they are out there. You also need to get great letters of rec from well known faculty. Nothing beats starting an interview with: "oh, you know so and
so, she wrote you a great letter."

Also, you may consider doing your PhD first. Sure it will cost you some debt, but it'll beef up the med school app, you might be able to start sooner, great GPA + 30 MCAT + PhD will get you in. And the NIH has a loan repayment program for post docs with debt who spend 3 years in basic science research worth up to 105K of debt relief. Not shabby.

 

[GliaGirl]

This person already has a great GPA and a publication. The only thing missing is a good MCAT score. Make sure to keep doing research while you re-apply. Try to get a job in the lab you worked in for 3 years, or move elsewhere. But watch out: if you take a job as a tech, you might not be doing anything that will get your name on more papers. More papers can't hurt, but are not needed. With 1 publication, you are already way ahead of most applicants. Don't waste the time between gradtuation and reapplying. Do "real" research over the summer, even if it means not being paid very much.

 

[Ariodant]

I don't think schools can easily find out where else you are applying and whether it's MD/PhD or MD only. Applying some schools for MD only as a safety is not lack of sincerity, it's reality.

 

[Malakite]

I am confident I can do better on the MCAT. I learned a great lesson after I took the first two MCATs: I wasn't ready to take it, I wasn't consistently making 31+, which equals, more practice. So why did I take the MCAT a 2nd and 3rd back after back (July & Aug) when I wasn't ready? Well, I thought I was completely ready in July, and that a high 20 was the best I could do, but I was very determined to take it a 3rd time, regardless of it looking bad.

Note the dramatic increase of about 7 points on the MCAT. That was within 2-3 months of studying. After I got the 23, I'll be honest, everyday dreamed about being a 30+ MCAT student. I knew had a good application, but I never thought I could make a 30 on the real thing. Thus, I doubted my potential in taking standardized tests. Once I got a 30, I discovered more about myself. I do not regret taking the test 3 times because it helped me unravel more of my mind's potential. It now re-inspires me to take it again to see where I really stand after I prepare for several months.

 

[fastrandstrongr]

Also, you may consider doing your PhD first. Sure it will cost you some debt, but it'll beef up the med school app, you might be able to start sooner, great GPA + 30 MCAT + PhD will get you in. And the NIH has a loan repayment program for post docs with debt who spend 3 years in basic science research worth up to 105K of debt relief. Not shabby.

but the mcat is only good for 3 years, right? would have to rush your phd an awful lot to fit within that time window... since your suggestion seems like a rather unorthodox method of achieving the md/phd and would probably require the OP taking the mcat again anyways, i think it'd be worth it to try one more time (after some insane studying) now.

 

[Malakite]

I am confident I can do better on the MCAT. I learned a great lesson from this MCAT experience so far: I wasn't fully prepared to take it. I wasn't consistently making 31+, which equals, more practice. So why did I take the MCAT a 2nd and 3rd back after back (July & Aug) when I wasn't ready? Well, I thought I was actually ready in July, and that a high 20 was the best I could do. After the 27, I told myself that my state school would be the best bet; however, I was still very determined to take it a 3rd time, regardless of it looking bad.

Note the dramatic increase of about 7 points on the MCAT. That was within 2-3 months of studying. After I got the 23, I'll be honest, things were certainly depressing. Everyday I dreamed about being a 30+ MCAT student. I knew I had a good application, but I never thought I could make a 30 on the real thing. Thus, I doubted my potential in taking standardized tests. Once I got a 30, I discovered more about myself.

I do not regret taking the test 3 times because it helped me unravel more of my mind's potential (besides just being motivated with school and the other things I enjoy). I hope that some people can understand where I am coming from. I believe this experience has taught me, like for others, a valuable lesson of potential that will carry me through many of the difficulties of med and graduate school.

Getting a PhD would def. beef up my application. However, I am ready to go for a MD/PhD career program, and if not this year, definitely next year after having done better on the MCAT. If I sit out an extra year, I am going to try and get my undergraduate thesis published in a good journal with about 6 authors on it. I was also thinking about going out of state to one of the MSTP schools I applied to and doing research. Would this have any affect on adcoms? If not the out of state research idea, I was thinking about getting an EMT certification while working back in my academic research lab. If you have any good ideas about what I should do with a year off, please let me know.

 

[Malakite]

.

 

[Malakite]

Also, if I retake the MCAT, any pointers on what yall did to get a 32+? i'll have 4-5 months to study if I take it again

 

[tiamat360]

but the mcat is only good for 3 years, right? would have to rush your phd an awful lot to fit within that time window... since your suggestion seems like a rather unorthodox method of achieving the md/phd and would probably require the OP taking the mcat again anyways, i think it'd be worth it to try one more time (after some insane studying) now.

The MCAT expiration might actually be good for the OP: get a PhD, take the MCAT and do much better, and all the previous low MCAT scores are gone because they've expired.

If you're determined to apply MD/PhD, you should see if you can find out how different schools view the MCAT. You don't want to apply to (many) schools that average it; look more towards others that count only your latest or highest exam. Taking it four times is still a red flag, but less at schools that only look at your best score.

 

[Malakite]

So the next questions are: Should I get my PhD before reapplying? Or should I reapply to the MD only programs, try to get in, then the following year, retake the MCAT, and reapply to that school's MSTP? At this point I am hoping on getting into the MD only program, then trying to reapply to the MSTP. Should I let the Adcoms know about these prospects?

 

[Malakite]

.

 

[Jorje286]

So the next questions are: Should I get my PhD before reapplying? Or should I reapply to the MD only programs, try to get in, then the following year, retake the MCAT, and reapply to that school's MSTP? At this point I am hoping on getting into the MD only program, then trying to reapply to the MSTP. Should I let the Adcoms know about these prospects?

Go to an MD only program. There's no point of doing just a PhD if you already plan on going to med school. You can do research with an MD only and without the PhD, and yes some schools would allow you to apply to the MSTP after your first or second year of med school. PhD only should be your last choice (that is if you couldn't get in to MD).

 

[BNSN]

Go to medical school if you can, MSTP or not. What matters is that you can see patients because if you have that, you can get hired at any university. After that, you can talk to your chairman and tell him you want to do research. He won't mind because either way, you will be supporting your salary through patients and/or NIH grants and he won't have to pay for you.

If you want, after medical school, you can get a PhD. And that part will be easy -- you can get into any PhD program in the US if you have an MD.

So, yes, Jorje is totally correct. The order of priority should be.

1. MSTP
2. MD
...
10. PhD

Mind you, this has nothing to do with the quality of the PhD degree. IMO, PhD are far more intellectually rigorous than MD's, but academia really isn't about intellectual rigor -- it's about money.

 

[itsallthesame]

"He won't mind because either way, you will be supporting your salary through patients and/or NIH grants and he won't have to pay for you."

You say that as though getting an NIH grant is easy. Without years of dedicated research time to build a resume with great pubs (ex: 2-3 first author nature/science/cell) you're just not gonna make it. Finding a solid post-doc to get those pubs without a phd will be hard, but not impossible. Thinking that you can just do a residency, be a clinician and then tell your boss that you want to start a lab (requiring an investment of several hundred k's up front) and apply for an NIH grant to fund it... really? If you don't have an R01 worthy CV when you get your first faculty possition, you'll be so busy paying yourself with patients that you'll never get off the ground with your research.

I agree with previous people that sure, MD over PhD would be better, you can always do your PhD in the middle (regardless of being in an MD/PhD or MSTP program) and at just about any school in the country.
BUT: If you aren't getting into medical school for whatever reason, a PhD would boost your cred and you might get into a better school after if you CAN'T get into med school w/o. The question becomes, do you want to tech for 2 years and then do 8 years of med school or just phd for 4-5 then do med school at a better school?

Finally, the phd only option will give you a legit reason for retaking the MCAT (well, my score expired, so I had to, and look! a 34!)

 

[Malakite]

Basically, it appears that taking the MCAT 4 times is a bad idea. I used to think the test was kinda fun, but now since it's potentially ruined my current plans, I want to stab it in the neck with a screw driver.

 

[LuckyBunny2009]

Hey, I'm not sure if taking the mcat a fourth time is worth it. You do have a 30 and I personally took it three times...it was horrendous. Just thinking about all the stress and nights spend spilling over mcat books...ugh. I think this is a personal call, if you want to put yourself through this or not. Your gpa is solid. Ppl have gotten into MD programs (I'm not sure about mdphd) with a lot less and with a 30 mcat. I think the core issue might be your list of schools. Did you apply to very competitive programs? Are you international?

From my standpoint, you have a decent application. Perhaps a little clinical experience? You are free to contact schools that have given you a rejection about what it was in your application that need to be improved. I encourage that you do this and save yourself from a lot of work and frustration.

And DO write an update letter. Write that you would cancel all possible interviews for a chance to attend that school or something. And like Jorje said, tie in your strong selling points, don't linger on the mcat scores. Maybe just a sentence or two about it if you feel that you have to bring it up. Email the letter! Do it quick!

Good luck!

 

[LuckyBunny2009]

PS, you should try asking LizzyM, she has many years of experience on the admissions committee. Ask her about the mcat and such. She's a frequently sought-after source for advice in the MD forum...and has been invaluable to me too!

 

[PerpetualPupil]

Here is some advice: the advice coming from the "Pre"-Anything people on here is about as reliable as the Italian public transit system.

Why do I say that? During the time period leading up to the application period I sought out the advice of the all-knowing on this forum, and had I followed their advice I would have not been granted multiple acceptances ("middle of the pack" institutions and an Ivy) to MD/PhD programs. I don't have a 40 and/or a 4.0.

If you choose to listen (er...read) to anything on here, choose this: do everything you possibly can to make yourself an attractive applicant and put your heart into it. From the sound of it, seems like you know what that entails. Just go for it and brush off the amateur opinions that plague SDN. Good luck and work hard!

 

[QofQuimica]

OP, did you only apply to six schools? IMO, that is your biggest problem. I had a 43 on the MCAT, and I applied to 22 schools! Granted, I was applying MD-only, but still, do you follow my point here???

People do get into MD/PhD programs with 30 on the MCAT, including some of our forum members. (I'll let them post their experiences/advice if they choose.) But probably most people do not get into MD/PhD programs with only applying to half a dozen of them, especially if they're all highly ranked programs!

If you can't get into an MD/PhD program, my advice as a PhD-to-MD is that you *not* do a PhD first. Instead, focus on getting yourself into a med school. It's a lot easier to add on a PhD as a med student than it is to add on an MD as a grad student. Unless you're from CA, you can probably get into one of your state med schools and then either apply for their MD/PhD program internally, or take a leave to do a PhD after your second or third year of med school if they don't have a formal MD/PhD program. You should also be aware that MD programs tend to value non-research ECs more than MD/PhD programs do, and many MD programs value research less than MD/PhD programs do. In other words, you may need to get some significant shadowing and/or service experience if you haven't already in order to be a successful MD-only applicant.

One other thing you should realize: old MCAT scores *never* disappear. When I applied in 2005, my MCAT scores from 1996 (when I was in college) still showed up. Sure, they were expired, but they were there on my transcript a full decade later for the med school adcoms' viewing pleasure. Basically, any med school you ever apply to for the rest of your life will know about your previous three MCAT scores. So don't go the PhD-to-MD route with the misguided idea that the passage of enough time will somehow erase your previous test scores.

Best of luck to you. 🙂

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

One other thing you should realize: old MCAT scores *never* disappear. When I applied in 2005, my MCAT scores from 1996 (when I was in college) still showed up. Sure, they were expired, but they were there on my transcript a full decade later for the med school adcoms' viewing pleasure. Basically, any med school you ever apply to for the rest of your life will know about your previous three MCAT scores. So don't go the PhD-to-MD route with the misguided idea that the passage of enough time will somehow erase your previous test scores.

Best of luck to you. 🙂

Interesting Q. I did not know that. It's a shame that such things happen - scores (should) expire for a reason. Just like if your school had an under-wraps administrative action against you that was erased from your record - it should be off the record.

It seems that only medical schools (and perhaps licensing boards?) want to dredge up every little thing from decades ago.

 

[QofQuimica]

Interesting Q. I did not know that. It's a shame that such things happen - scores (should) expire for a reason. Just like if your school had an under-wraps administrative action against you that was erased from your record - it should be off the record.

It seems that only medical schools (and perhaps licensing boards?) want to dredge up every little thing from decades ago.

Well, fortunately most people don't take the crazy kind of route that I did, and this issue never comes up. 😉

I just don't want the OP to decide to go PhD-to-MD (by far the hardest route to becoming a physician scientist) because s/he thinks it will be a good way to get those old MCAT scores off the record. Again, to anyone within reading distance who wants an MD/PhD and can't get into an MD/PhD program, go MD-to-PhD, not the other way around. Or just get a research MD or MD/MS. No one should go PhD-only unless they're intending their PhD to be a terminal degree.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

To the OP:

Let me just state that the theory of getting a PNAS+ paper to overcome the MCAT is just stupid. Many schools will pre-screen you without even seeing all the rest, and even a PNAS paper may not convince them to accept you over a bad MCAT. The reason is that at this point they know that the PI is the driving force of the ideas behind the project (which is also the case with a PhD student and even a post-doc to a degree, but much more so with a pre-grad student), and they also probably know that there's major assistance in the execution of such a project.

Also, getting a PhD, even at a top school, is inadvisable. Why? Because the silly adcoms at the MD will see the PhD as a nice little extracurricular and the MCAT will still be likely more relevant to their admitting you than the PhD! Also, PhD-only can drag on and on (5-7 years, for instance) because there's no pushing from the MSTP.

At this point I would suggest reapplying next year with your 30 MCAT to a huge range of MSTPs, or just giving up on the MSTP and applying MD only. If you focus on the MD well, you can probably get into a good residency conducive to research, such as IM, peds, or pathology, and then go from there or from fellowship. The one major worry is the USMLE Step 1. You don't want a repeat of the MCAT, so if you go this route, make sure you study early on and prepare yourself well. It's more detail and memorization oriented than the MCAT, so if you invest the effort you should do (relatively) better.

My personal case was a 3.5 GPA, double science major, 40 MCAT (34 on first try), and two years of research but no publications. I applied to nearly 40 MSTPs (essentially the top 1-50, save a few), withdrew from 6 pre-secondary, got 18 interviews and went to 6 of those and was accepted to one place (withdrew from a few post-interview after the acceptance). In all, I got interviews from only 2 top-ten schools. Now, I could say that this is due to a lack of publications or poor interviewing. However, the interviews weren't objectively bad and I know of many people at top 5 schools with no publications when applying/interviewing. Clearly, the 3.5 GPA was preventing me from getting interviews at more top 10s.

It's a whole package deal. I'm worried that the MCAT is seen as a better measure of aptitude and promise for the MSTP than the GPA, although at this point I would disagree with that since the GPA is reflective of hard effort (crucial for a PhD and 3rd year clerkships) and the Step 1 is more facts-based than the MCAT and not as steeply curved. The caveat here is that if the GPA is at a "weaker" school, it may not do enough to offset the poor MCAT as the same GPA at a top 1-20 undergrad.

 

[fastrandstrongr]

Here is some advice: the advice coming from the "Pre"-Anything people on here is about as reliable as the Italian public transit system.

Why do I say that? During the time period leading up to the application period I sought out the advice of the all-knowing on this forum, and had I followed their advice I would have not been granted multiple acceptances ("middle of the pack" institutions and an Ivy) to MD/PhD programs. I don't have a 40 and/or a 4.0.

If you choose to listen (er...read) to anything on here, choose this: do everything you possibly can to make yourself an attractive applicant and put your heart into it. From the sound of it, seems like you know what that entails. Just go for it and brush off the amateur opinions that plague SDN. Good luck and work hard!

someone's on a bit of a high horse, no? forums are meant for advice and perhaps some of us aren't all knowing, but the people here are genuinely trying to help and enlighten others to the different options available to them. also, you are being hypocritical in telling the OP not to listen to advice from people at SDN but then offering up advice yourself...

 

[imbored]

I got a 29 on my MCAT my second time (i got a 28 the first time) but have been accepted to a MD-PhD program. So it is possible. I entered the process with 3 first-authored articles in good journals in my field (and other rly good research expierences that I wont divulge into right now), a good GPA, and good ECs. However, I did apply to about 30+ schools. I have been invited to a total of 7 interviews (some of them were MD only), but only one invite to an official MSTP. The acceptance I currently have is to a non-MSTP MD/PhD program. I am still waiting to hear back from about 9 schools, but I am not really optimistic as it is nearing the end of MD-PhD interviews.

The reason to apply to so many schools in your situation is because different schools place difference emphasis on different things. Some schools value the experience over the scores, but others don't. And you really can't tell which schools do before hand. For me, some really nice directors of some of the MSTP schools personally emailed me explaining why I wasn't invited for an interview, and they all basically said that I was one of the top candidates for research experience and was really close to being invited, but my MCAT score was just too below the average of the current applicant group to allow an invite. So I think publications are really important (especially if they are first-authored), but still not enough to counterbalance a low MCAT. But again, I think a lot of schools have differing philosophies, which is why it is important to apply to a bunch of schools in your case.

 

[QofQuimica]

The reason to apply to so many schools in your situation is because different schools place difference emphasis on different things. Some schools value the experience over the scores, but others don't. And you really can't tell which schools do before hand. For me, some really nice directors of some of the MSTP schools personally emailed me explaining why I wasn't invited for an interview, and they all basically said that I was one of the top candidates for research experience and was really close to being invited, but my MCAT score was just too below the average of the current applicant group to allow an invite. So I think publications are really important (especially if they are first-authored), but still not enough to counterbalance a low MCAT. But again, I think a lot of schools have differing philosophies, which is why it is important to apply to a bunch of schools in your case.

Exactly. 👍

Congrats on your acceptance. 🙂