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PinkFloyd98

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    I have a 3.72 GPA but I took the MCAT twice - the first time I got a 25 and the second time i got a 27. I didn't improve much from the April to August MCAT, but I have a LOT of extra-curriculars (research, LOTS of leadership experience - president of like 3 clubs at a huge public school). What are my chances of getting into a top tier school? I applied to like 6 schools - 5 are in the top tier, and one "safety" school - Drexel. Any help would be appreciated!
     

    Shredder

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      PinkFloyd98 said:
      27

      What are my chances of getting into a top tier school?
      realistically about 0 even if youre urm. 27 is too low, unheard of at top tiers. is this post even real. regardless of ECs research and leadership, 27 doesnt show that youre capable of handling the academic rigor of top schools, or most other schools too in fact
       

      PinkFloyd98

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        Shredder said:
        realistically about 0 even if youre urm. 27 is too low, unheard of at top tiers. is this post even real. regardless of ECs research and leadership, 27 doesnt show that youre capable of handling the academic rigor of top schools, or most other schools too in fact

        Um yes this is real. It's actually my friend who asked this question. I misquoted the MCAT stats, sorry - it was actually a 27 to a 28 score.
         
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          PinkFloyd98 said:
          I have a 3.72 GPA but I took the MCAT twice - the first time I got a 25 and the second time i got a 27. I didn't improve much from the April to August MCAT, but I have a LOT of extra-curriculars (research, LOTS of leadership experience - president of like 3 clubs at a huge public school). What are my chances of getting into a top tier school? I applied to like 6 schools - 5 are in the top tier, and one "safety" school - Drexel. Any help would be appreciated!

          Your chances of gaining admission to a top-20 school are low absent a very compelling reason to look the other way on your MCAT score. Club presidencies count for very little because unless they mean actual work or results, they are kind of inconsequential. Of course, the only thing you stand to lose by applying is money, so I encourage you to try if you believe your application has very real qualities outside of your scores, but know that your scores are a liability. I should add, though, that my undergrad GPA was a 3.55.
           

          rocketman

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            Shredder said:
            realistically about 0 even if youre urm. 27 is too low, unheard of at top tiers. is this post even real. regardless of ECs research and leadership, 27 doesnt show that youre capable of handling the academic rigor of top schools, or most other schools too in fact

            Wow I could almost hear trump saying those words!

            27 is a solid score, but not for a top tier school.
             

            PinkFloyd98

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              PhotoMD said:
              Your chances of gaining admission to a top-20 school are low absent a very compelling reason to look the other way on your MCAT score. Club presidencies count for very little because unless they mean actual work or results, they are kind of inconsequential. Of course, the only thing you stand to lose by applying is money, so I encourage you to try if you believe your application has very real qualities outside of your scores, but know that your scores are a liability. I should add, though, that my undergrad GPA was a 3.55.

              Thanks for your response PhotoMD - I know my friend's chances at a top tier are not good, but what about at my one safety school - Drexel or the Medical College of Georgia (not a resident there though).

              Also, will it hurt that she took the MCAT twice and didn't improve much?
               

              theunderdog

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                yeah i can attest. 27 is a solid score. in fact, it is my score... twice..

                top schools have not rejected me yet. in fact, i'm on GRADES HOLD! i have a 3.5.... which means my mcat passed, but my grades didnt... so dont worry... PM me if u got questions
                 

                carn311

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                  Shredder said:
                  realistically about 0 even if youre urm. 27 is too low, unheard of at top tiers. is this post even real. regardless of ECs research and leadership, 27 doesnt show that youre capable of handling the academic rigor of top schools, or most other schools too in fact

                  Who died and made you master of all things admissions related? Could you come off any more cocky? Man... :eek:
                   

                  Shredder

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                    carn311 said:
                    Who died and made you master of all things admissions related? Could you come off any more cocky? Man... :eek:
                    so my tone was a little brash, im just keeping it real. giving false encouragement isnt nice, its harmful. you can build ppls hopes up now but it will only make them come crashing down when nothing materializes. so im not the one being mean here. everyone knows the chances are close to 0, why not admit it. OP you or your buddy can apply wherever--nobody has the power to stop that. but i do think it might be poorly spent money and that you shouldnt get your hopes up (for top tier). 30 is usually considered to be the "solid" score that will give you a good shot at lower and mid tier schools. everything follows statistical curves with various probabilities--its possible to apply with low credentials but youre banking on being a statistical anomaly. as long as you go into it with that knowledge it should be fine

                    in the hotshot world, ppl appreciate candor and directness. just practicing. i guess thats not the case among younger and more touchy ppl, and maybe even older touchy ppl
                     

                    theunderdog

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                      Shredder said:
                      so my tone was a little brash, im just keeping it real. giving false encouragement isnt nice, its harmful. you can build ppls hopes up now but it will only make them come crashing down when nothing materializes. so im not the one being mean here. everyone knows the chances are close to 0, why not admit it. OP you or your buddy can apply wherever--nobody has the power to stop that. but i do think it might be poorly spent money and that you shouldnt get your hopes up (for top tier). 30 is usually considered to be the "solid" score that will give you a good shot at lower and mid tier schools. everything follows statistical curves with various probabilities--its possible to apply with low credentials but youre banking on being a statistical anomaly. as long as you go into it with that knowledge it should be fine

                      in the hotshot world, ppl appreciate candor and directness. just practicing. i guess thats not the case among younger and more touchy ppl, and maybe even older touchy ppl

                      i dont want to start a flame war or anything, but you have no right to say that people with a 27 have no chance.

                      you dont even have a 27 score, so you wouldn't even know what kind of chance there is.

                      i have a 27 score, and i probably got more interviews than you.

                      peace.
                       

                      Shredder

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                        theunderdog said:
                        i dont want to start a flame war or anything, but you have no right to say that people with a 27 have no chance.

                        you dont even have a 27 score, so you wouldn't even know what kind of chance there is.

                        i have a 27 score, and i probably got more interviews than you.

                        peace.
                        hey nor do i want to war. i only point to statistics and make comments based on that. its not about my personal opinions, its about facts. theres no such thing as having 0 chance, there are only fractions of chance. even with a score of 15 someone could beat the odds and get it. but its unlikely, and that is the key. so for someone with a 15 to go into apps with a very hopeful attitude will very likely lead to disappointment later. take your pick, hope now and disappointment later, or an objective attitude throughout?

                        im glad you got lots of interviews and i hope you do well. i hope you beat the odds in some of them. but it shouldnt be counted on. beating the odds, that is, because by its nature beating the odds usually doesnt happen. then again apps and admissions arent completely random--i hope you have something that makes you special and lets you beat odds. but lower mcat scores put people at a disadvantage, at some schools more than others, and some mcat scores to a greater degree than others. for all practical purposes a 27 at top tier schools is not very realistic
                         
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                        carn311

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                          Shredder said:
                          lower mcat scores put people at a disadvantage, at some schools more than others, and some mcat scores to a greater degree than others. for all practical purposes a 27 at top tier schools is not very realistic


                          Honestly, its not what you said its how you said it. The above is not only more tactfull but also more effective. And this is constructive criticism; your posts are actually some of the more relevant and insightful on this forum.
                           

                          Chopianista

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                            Shredder said:
                            realistically about 0 even if youre urm. 27 is too low, unheard of at top tiers. is this post even real. regardless of ECs research and leadership, 27 doesnt show that youre capable of handling the academic rigor of top schools, or most other schools too in fact


                            ... Wow.
                             

                            Jon Davis

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                              Shredder said:
                              realistically about 0 even if youre urm. 27 is too low, unheard of at top tiers. is this post even real. regardless of ECs research and leadership, 27 doesnt show that youre capable of handling the academic rigor of top schools, or most other schools too in fact

                              Thats utter BULLSH*T. Many TOP-TIER schools such as YALE and CORNELL look past numbers, however there is a line to be drawn at some point for MCAT scores (which is about 30 give or take a couple points). If you have a kick ass GPA and some solid ECs and LORs your MCAT should not hold you back. Its one damn test.

                              One aecdote: My friend had a 27 MCAT, a close to 4.0 GPA, some research, solid LORs and he got an interview at Dartmouth, an ivy league institution.
                               

                              NCF145

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                                Well if you consider Baylor (#13 in the country) to be a top tier, I have heard that they accepted someone with a 21 on their MCAT. But with a 21 on their MCAT I would assume that they were a URM in the URM category (they were probably gay, black, a midget, and a practicing jew from a very poor, strict islamic family).

                                All kidding aside, your chances of being accepted with a 27 to a top tier aren't very good, but they are even less if you don't apply.

                                Best of luck.
                                 

                                DrMojorisin

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                                  I think chances at drexel are pretty decent. Maybe better than 50%, assuming everything else in the application is tidy and decent interviewing skills.

                                  Everywhere else is highly unlikely, with a slim chance if your friend is a URM.

                                  Is it too late to apply to osteopathic schools? I'd have your friend do that if it isn't, I just don't know.

                                  Worst case scenario, your friend probably won't have much trouble getting in next year. 27 with his gpa is about the stats of an average matriculant. Just need to apply to more low end schools and state schools to guarantee admission with those stats.
                                   

                                  tank you

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                                    the only thing im wondering about is why he applied to 5 top-tier schools and only 1 normal school :confused: either hes really arrogant (w/a 27 no less) or very naive..

                                    and i dont think Shredder was out of line, its the truth.
                                    ur friends needs to either add more schools or face all the rejections he will eventually get.
                                     

                                    Shredder

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                                      Jon Davis said:
                                      Thats utter BULLSH*T. Many TOP-TIER schools such as YALE and CORNELL look past numbers, however there is a line to be drawn at some point for MCAT scores (which is about 30 give or take a couple points). If you have a kick ass GPA and some solid ECs and LORs your MCAT should not hold you back. Its one damn test.

                                      One aecdote: My friend had a 27 MCAT, a close to 4.0 GPA, some research, solid LORs and he got an interview at Dartmouth, an ivy league institution.
                                      schools only look so far past numbers. heres something id like schools to publish--mean and median MCAT, as well as standard deviation. it would make chances so much easier to assess. hmm maybe ill pursue that. but you can make inferences on that based on the distribution of mcat scores, if that makes sense.

                                      i dunno why my words caused such an uproar. mcat scores do have meaning, you know, otherwise the test would be out of business. the aamc itself creates and administers it, so it must be important for something. its supposed to be a predictive test, like all standardized tests. its one test but its not like a test in school. its created scientifically to determine certain abilities, theres a lot that goes into it, not like a prof slapping something together at the last minute. i think its actually called psychometrics

                                      when youre in the 30 range and giving or taking a couple of points, it makes a big difference in percentile. and its not about whether mcat should hold you back. the reality is that it can and often does hold people back. btw interviews are meaningless, only acceptances, and dartmouth isnt considered a top tier med school and brown similarly. +thats one friend you cited, compared to the hundreds of applicants with similar or better numbers who were rejected. schools need some way to reduce 5000 applicants to a class size of 150, and its not by reading 5000 essays. also the diff between 27 and 30 (avg matriculant mcat) is somewhat sizeable in percentile--its really all stat

                                      carn311 i see what you mean about constructive criticism. ive faced the same situation myself for something and got pissed off at the person for it. i guess i thought the question itself was slightly outrageous, and maybe even fake, so i gave an extreme response.
                                       

                                      PinkFloyd98

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                                        jtank said:
                                        the only thing im wondering about is why he applied to 5 top-tier schools and only 1 normal school :confused: either hes really arrogant (w/a 27 no less) or very naive..

                                        and i dont think Shredder was out of line, its the truth.
                                        ur friends needs to either add more schools or face all the rejections he will eventually get.

                                        I think naivete. my friend didn't know her score when she applied in May and had taken the April MCAT. Can you add more schools after your AMCAS has been verified?
                                         

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                                          why so hell-bent on a top-tier school? And even a strong candidate (which the OP clearly isn't) should apply to more schools than 5 top-tier and 1 "safety."
                                           
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                                          tank you

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                                            PinkFloyd98 said:
                                            I think naivete. my friend didn't know her score when she applied in May and had taken the April MCAT. Can you add more schools after your AMCAS has been verified?

                                            yes u can, although at this point, some schools have already passed their deadline, so its too late. check the msar on which schools are still available, keeping in mind that it is pretty latein the game now and most schools have already started filling up their classes. maybe she should think about waiting until next year if things dont work out.
                                             

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                                              PinkFloyd98 said:
                                              I have a 3.72 GPA but I took the MCAT twice - the first time I got a 25 and the second time i got a 27. I didn't improve much from the April to August MCAT, but I have a LOT of extra-curriculars (research, LOTS of leadership experience - president of like 3 clubs at a huge public school). What are my chances of getting into a top tier school? I applied to like 6 schools - 5 are in the top tier, and one "safety" school - Drexel. Any help would be appreciated!

                                              The question isn't wether your friend will get into one of 5 top tier schools or Drexel, it's wether your friend will get in at all. Chances are very good that your friend will get in somewhere allopathic. Provided that she add about a dozen (or more) schools to her app. Applying only to "5 top tier schools and Drexel" is presumptuous even for someone with 32+ on the MCAT. With a 27, it's downright dangerous. And I really don't believe that there is such a thing as a "safety school" when talking about med school. I would recommend that your friend add more schools, if possible. Is it her first time applying? She may want to consider studying her butt off for the MCAT and applying again next year with a lot more schools.
                                               

                                              Jon Davis

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                                                Shredder said:
                                                schools only look so far past numbers. heres something id like schools to publish--mean and median MCAT, as well as standard deviation. it would make chances so much easier to assess. hmm maybe ill pursue that. but you can make inferences on that based on the distribution of mcat scores, if that makes sense.

                                                i dunno why my words caused such an uproar. mcat scores do have meaning, you know, otherwise the test would be out of business. the aamc itself creates and administers it, so it must be important for something. its supposed to be a predictive test, like all standardized tests. its one test but its not like a test in school. its created scientifically to determine certain abilities, theres a lot that goes into it, not like a prof slapping something together at the last minute. i think its actually called psychometrics

                                                when youre in the 30 range and giving or taking a couple of points, it makes a big difference in percentile. and its not about whether mcat should hold you back. the reality is that it can and often does hold people back. btw interviews are meaningless, only acceptances, and dartmouth isnt considered a top tier med school and brown similarly. +thats one friend you cited, compared to the hundreds of applicants with similar or better numbers who were rejected. schools need some way to reduce 5000 applicants to a class size of 150, and its not by reading 5000 essays. also the diff between 27 and 30 (avg matriculant mcat) is somewhat sizeable in percentile--its really all stat

                                                carn311 i see what you mean about constructive criticism. ive faced the same situation myself for something and got pissed off at the person for it. i guess i thought the question itself was slightly outrageous, and maybe even fake, so i gave an extreme response.


                                                I never argued against the MCAT at all. If you read carefully, you would have seen that I agree that there must be a line drawn in the sand for MCAT scores for schools. However, I dont think it is used as strongly as you think it is for offers of admission. I think the score history and GPA are together used as a method to provide admission decisions. Why do you think many SDN people with low to mediocre GPAs are getting rejected with 30+ scores (sometimes pre-secondary, read: Wake Forest)?

                                                You might come back and say, well the MCAT scores correlate well with Step 1 and 2 scores. Big deal.

                                                "27 doesnt show that youre capable of handling the academic rigor of top schools, or most other schools too in fact"

                                                That totally off base. Your GPA, course history, ECs during school and possibly major are better indicators than an MCAT score to judge suitability to handle the demanding cirriculum. You're probably looking at this at an intellectual point of view, which is hard to judge by a test score by itself. However, "smarter" people are, on the average, going to do better than less "smarter" people. The interview is a better tool to gauge intellectual strength (ie. how one communicates, handles tough questions, etc.).Interviews hold as much weight as the other parts of the app. Why you call them "meaningless", I can't comprehend.

                                                While at wikipedia, you should have looked up what anecdote meant. It was just a story for the OP to relate to, not for hard evidence. By the way, Dartmouth is a solid school. You are probably using U.S. News to indicate "top-tier" schools and Dartmouth isn't top-tier, TO THEM. Many people on SDN love Dartmouth and to them they are top-tier. I encourage you to look at their residency match list, they do fairly well.

                                                Later.
                                                 

                                                Shredder

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                                                  you make some good points. i applied to dartmouth and its one of my top choices--locations remote but its a good school, superb biz school and strong name. new hampshires a very safe, clean state. i think its how america should be in many ways. gotta peace out, been on sdn way too much lately--hopefully no hard feelings, but if so i hope im able to clear them up sometime.
                                                   

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                                                    BrettBatchelor said:
                                                    I have to call you on this. It is a big deal if you can't pass Step 1 or 2. You won't be practicing in the US.
                                                    actually before jetting i too have to side with brett--step 1 scores are a big deal in obtaining competitive residencies, which schools like to tout such as derm, rads, etc. so mcat scores are indirectly correlated with residency placements, and thus schools are keen to scrutinize them
                                                     

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                                                      Shredder said:
                                                      actually before jetting i too have to side with brett--step 1 scores are a big deal in obtaining competitive residencies, which schools like to tout such as derm, rads, etc. so mcat scores are indirectly correlated with residency placements, and thus schools are keen to scrutinize them
                                                      Even if you don't want a competitive specialty, if you don't/can't pass the step sequence you can't get a license to practice in the US period. That would be a lot of schooling and loans for nothing.
                                                       

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                                                        PinkFloyd98 said:
                                                        I think naivete. my friend didn't know her score when she applied in May and had taken the April MCAT. Can you add more schools after your AMCAS has been verified?

                                                        So is your friend an Under Represented Minority? I know Harvard took a URM with a 29 on their MCAT last year (well, according to MDapplicants.com anyways), top schools would probably do like-wise.

                                                        Given her first MCAT score, a better strategy would have been to diversify her pool of applications. For just $50 more, a surer chance. I think she can get into A medical school, she may have to re-apply next year but her stats are good enough to get in somewhere .
                                                         

                                                        PinkFloyd98

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                                                          Chinorean said:
                                                          So is your friend an Under Represented Minority? I know Harvard took a URM with a 29 on their MCAT last year (well, according to MDapplicants.com anyways), top schools would probably do like-wise.

                                                          Given her first MCAT score, a better strategy would have been to diversify her pool of applications. For just $50 more, a surer chance. I think she can get into A medical school, she may have to re-apply next year but her stats are good enough to get in somewhere .

                                                          No she's not a URM. If the AMCAS has already been verified, you can just add more schools for $50? Also, I know that she received secondaries from these top schools - not sure how heavily they pre-screen though (i.e. Wake and Vanderbilt).
                                                           

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                                                            Shredder said:
                                                            actually before jetting i too have to side with brett--step 1 scores are a big deal in obtaining competitive residencies, which schools like to tout such as derm, rads, etc. so mcat scores are indirectly correlated with residency placements, and thus schools are keen to scrutinize them

                                                            I saw this a mile away, why do you think I brought it up? Yes, they correlate, but this isn't about getting into residencies, let alone competitive ones. People change you know, they are not static for 4 years. By taking into account the overall nature of the person at the point of admission, the admissions committee assumes they will do reasonable on the Step scores. Invariably, that occurs. Its not common to have people fail out of medical schools. You still take the argument to extremes, extending it to getting into competitive residencies. You don't have the privelege to assess that kind of success without the proper information (LORs, extracirriculars, match availability, etc.) You think too linear, think outside the box.
                                                             

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                                                              PinkFloyd98 said:
                                                              No she's not a URM. If the AMCAS has already been verified, you can just add more schools for $50? Also, I know that she received secondaries from these top schools - not sure how heavily they pre-screen though (i.e. Wake and Vanderbilt).

                                                              Wake is notorious for pre-screening. Take a look at the Wall of Shame thread. Many SDN folk with solid scores didn't get them. I am sure if you ask them, they will tell you more about themselves and their thoughts about why they may have been rejected pre-secondary.
                                                               

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                                                                I know this is an old post, but I just noticed it when I was reading something else. So although this is a month late.............

                                                                I'd like to say that I know a lot of people are trying to stay positive and say you might have a chance at a top school.

                                                                However, I am going to have to go along with what Shredder said and say that in a country where competition rules everything, its very very very very very slim of a chance that you will have based on statistics. I'm not saying that it isn't possible. There have been few cases where people got in places like UPenn with a 30 on their MCAT instead of 34-35+.

                                                                However, judging from various resources, chances for this to happen are extremely small. If you can't see yourself anywhere but a top school, then you might want to consider retaking the MCAT and doing your best to score a top score.

                                                                However, I am of the philosophy that it is better to apply broadly and not be concerned with ranking over overall impression based on clinical experience, curricula, etc.
                                                                 

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                                                                  The average scores for accepted students for all med schools are MCAT = 30 and GPA = 3.5. You can apply to top schools, but don't expect to get in. My advice is to apply to 15 schools: 5 top, 5 middle, 5 bottom. With a 27, it's possible that you won't get into middle schools either, so apply to all three sets.
                                                                   

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                                                                  Feb 21, 2004
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                                                                  38
                                                                  1. Medical Student
                                                                  2. Resident [Any Field]
                                                                    the negative 1 said:
                                                                    Isn't about time for these "what are my chances" threads to be permanently banned?


                                                                    I don't think they should be permanently banned because regardless of what others say, this forum is here for advice and some people just like to see what others in the same position would do. However, I do believe that they should be put under one category or maybe a subforum should be created where they could exist so that it wouldn't clutter the space up.
                                                                     
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