What are the chances that DO’s schools would adapt LCME standards and convert to MD’s?

[deleted1029873]

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So we can have one unified physician system with no bias or stigma towards different degrees?

 

[ThatGIguy]

So we can have one unified physician system with no bias or stigma towards different degrees?

You think the people who work hard during undergrad shouldnt have the ability to distinguish themselves as md?

 

[deleted859689]

So we can have one unified physician system with no bias or stigma towards different degrees?

If you want the MD, go MD. No one here is stopping you. Chances are 0 imo for obvious reasons.

 

[Goro]

So we can have one unified physician system with no bias or stigma towards different degrees?

ZERO
/thread

 

[Allosteopath]

Ask in 50 years.

 

[Sephirakra]

So we can have one unified physician system with no bias or stigma towards different degrees?

An infamous president of one of the original five schools tried this about ten years ago. It... didn't go well.

 

[m1redsox]

So we can have one unified physician system with no bias or stigma towards different degrees?

Zero. I think most Osteopathic institutions take a lot of pride in their holistic approach (including OMM) to medicine and would staunchly oppose abandoning those principles.

 

[MaximusD]

Zero. I think most Osteopathic institutions take a lot of pride in their holistic approach (including OMM) to medicine and would staunchly oppose abandoning those principles.

You mean their marketing schemes?

Eyeroll


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[Kardio]

So we can have one unified physician system with no bias or stigma towards different degrees?

I doubt it would make as dramatic a difference as you may think. Some schools will always be more competitive than others, and graduate outcomes will always reflect this.

 

[m1redsox]

You mean their marketing schemes?

Eyeroll


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I mean, don’t get me wrong, I’m still choosing MD>DO, but don’t you think bone manipulation could be useful in specialties like PM&R, sports med, or other branches of family med?

 

[m1redsox]

And dont you think that the DOs in these specialties already do this?

Certainly? I think that's my point. @MaximusD seems to believe OMM is all a marketing scheme, but some of it seems pretty useful to me!

 

[KnightDoc]

I didn't know I can't post a debatable post without getting people upset, I should've used reddit for my question

I'm not sure people are really all that upset. I'm a neutral observer here who has absolutely no skin in the game, but it looks to me like all they're saying is it was looked at and didn't happen for various reasons, so it's not going to happen.

 

[Pluto98]

when are the residencies going to be combined or have they already? Is this less likely to bias DO's to match in competitive fields?

 

[Cornfed101]

when are the residencies going to be combined or have they already? Is this less likely to bias DO's to match in competitive fields?

This year. The bias will remain because people are people. I am interested to see if it goes both ways. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few former AOA programs that only/mostly accepted DOs just to stick it to the man.

 

[Pluto98]

They are fully combined and this year there will be NRMP that will include all previous AOA programs

Thoughts on how this might improve the chances of a DO to match into more competitive specialties?

 

[Goro]

Thoughts on how this might improve the chances of a DO to match into more competitive specialties?

I suspect that it will be a slow osmosis.

Over the past few years, the number of DOs getting into historic ACGME uber-specialties has been increasing to the tune of ~5%/year. While this is still single digits, the trend line is still upwards. Thus, the doors are slowly cracking open.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

So we can have one unified physician system with no bias or stigma towards different degrees?

Pedigree bigotry has always existed and will continue to exist. I have made the comment several times. MDs do it to each other. As a resident, we had to attend local medical meetings for our specialty. Whenever another resident approached me and asked..." So, where are you a resident?" I would respond, "Oh, you must be from .....(fill in your local Ivy). They would cough and harumph and say Why do you ask? My response... Only people from...( fill in your local Ivy) ask me that question. They just wanted me to know where they were training , in an appearance of superiority. I was never asked that question by a resident from St Elsewhere. Pedigree bigotry is a thing and they will let you know where they trained in about 30 seconds of meeting them.

 

[Pluto98]

Pedigree bigotry has always existed and will continue to exist. I have made the comment several times. MDs do it to each other. As a resident, we had to attend local medical meetings for our specialty. Whenever another resident approached me and asked..." So, where are you a resident?" I would respond, "Oh, you must be from .....(fill in your local Ivy). They would cough and harumph and say Why do you ask? My response... Only people from...( fill in your local Ivy) ask me that question. They just wanted me to know where they were training , in an appearance of superiority. I was never asked that question by a resident from St Elsewhere. Pedigree bigotry is a thing and they will let you know where they trained in about 30 seconds of meeting them.

Thats actually really funny. Isn't it a natural thing to ask though (where do you train)?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Thats actually really funny. Isn't it a natural thing to ask though (where do you train)?

You would think so. But in that academic environment, where attendings, residents and fellows are present, those training at the local Ivy were all to eager to ask straight away. As your career advances, when it happens to you ,you will hopefully remember my observation. Asking where you trained becomes much less common when you enter clinical practice. Actually, several physicians for whom I have the greatest respect trained at Ivys and I found this out by accident. Quite often, superior physicians are unassuming, lovely people as nothing is ever very difficult for them. They excel at most things. Not every Ivy grad does this for sure, but I've found it to be common.

 

[Pluto98]

You would think so. But in that academic environment, where attendings, residents and fellows are present, those training at the local Ivy were all to eager to ask straight away. As your career advances, when it happens to you ,you will hopefully remember my observation. Asking where you trained becomes much less common when you enter clinical practice. Actually, several physicians for whom I have the greatest respect trained at Ivys and I found this out by accident. Quite often, superior physicians are unassuming, lovely people as nothing is ever very difficult for them. They excel at most things. Not every Ivy grad does this for sure, but I've found it to be common.

How does one find this out by accident? I will definitely keep your observation in mind!

 

[Angus Avagadro]

How does one find this out by accident? I will definitely keep your observation in mind!

Comes up in casual conversation with other docs. Patients ask about them when I recommend a consult with that physician. Many patients are wary of consulting with Docs they dont know and knowing some of their backround helps aleve their anxiety. I looked a couple up myself when I thought they would be a good consultant in that particular case. A few came up with a pedigree as long as your arm, unknown to me prior, but I did know they were excellent physicians.

 

[Moko]

Pedigree bigotry has always existed and will continue to exist. I have made the comment several times. MDs do it to each other. As a resident, we had to attend local medical meetings for our specialty. Whenever another resident approached me and asked..." So, where are you a resident?" I would respond, "Oh, you must be from .....(fill in your local Ivy). They would cough and harumph and say Why do you ask? My response... Only people from...( fill in your local Ivy) ask me that question. They just wanted me to know where they were training , in an appearance of superiority. I was never asked that question by a resident from St Elsewhere. Pedigree bigotry is a thing and they will let you know where they trained in about 30 seconds of meeting them.

So basically Ivy-trained MDs are the vegans of medicine. 🤔

 

[DNAJB6]

Zero. I think most Osteopathic institutions take a lot of pride in their holistic approach (including OMM) to medicine and would staunchly oppose abandoning those principles.

Most DOs I know don't do OMM. Most shy away from the topic.

 

[DNAJB6]

Ask again in 5 years, 10 years or 20 years as it typically takes a generation for medical culture to embrace and change. For example, it wasnt until 1980s that hospitals were forced to give DO admitting privileges. And it was a good 25 years before DOs were fully integrated and accepted throughout the medical community

Forced by the federal government or by state law?

 

[m1redsox]

Most DOs I know don't do OMM. Most shy away from the topic.

I concur, but the majority of the institutions themselves seem to be very proud of it- which is why I consider it very unlikely that they would abandon the one thing that makes them unique. The only DOs I know who use it went into NMM, PM&R, Family Med, Sports Med, or something along those lines.

 

[Goro]

So basically Ivy-trained MDs are the vegans of medicine. 🤔

Or PETA members?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You mean their marketing schemes?

Eyeroll


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Having had a rotation where I had to interact very closely with OMM faculty.... I can say that many of these individuals truly believe in their heart of hearts that they are somehow magically different and that OMM is some miracle treatment. The AOA is all the marketing schemes, but on a school by school level many of the individuals that teach OMM are simply very misguided.

Certainly? I think that's my point. @MaximusD seems to believe OMM is all a marketing scheme, but some of it seems pretty useful to me!

He's talking about the "holistic" bit. It's 100% a marketing scheme, although there are some true believers as I mention above.

when are the residencies going to be combined or have they already? Is this less likely to bias DO's to match in competitive fields?

Already combined. This is the first year of a fully combined match, although last year was pretty close as most programs in the NMS (DO) match were programs that weren't going to be able to keep taking residents past that year.

This year. The bias will remain because people are people. I am interested to see if it goes both ways. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few former AOA programs that only/mostly accepted DOs just to stick it to the man.

Thoughts on how this might improve the chances of a DO to match into more competitive specialties?

Overall the chances of a DO to match competitive specialties is going to decrease, but not because of the merger. It's going to be the massive influx of new DO/MD grads into the applicant pool that is going to really hurt applicants. For DO's who check all the boxes and are elite applicants the merger is actually a benefit, and this has slowly been seen over the last few years as more and more elite matches are coming out of DO schools each year.

Overall the trend has been that the top applicants are matching better and better, I know for a fact a DO interviewed at Harvard and other elite programs for a surgical sub this year, but the bottom students have had a harder and harder time. Very polarized, and I expect this trend to continue further.

 

[stickgirl390]

Why is it so common to assume DO schools would prefer to become MD schools? I’m sure they are proud of what they offer the medical field and their patients, and want to keep a name for themselves.

 

[Goro]

Why is it so common for premeds to assume DO schools would prefer to become MD schools?

FTFY.

To follow up Anatomy grey's astute comments, for the True Believers, OMM/OMT is not merely a treatment modality, it's a belief system. They are very prone to magic thinking and confirmation bias.

 

[CosmeticLeFort3]

You think the people who work hard during undergrad shouldnt have the ability to distinguish themselves as md?

Brutal blackpill!

 

[CosmeticLeFort3]

I mean, don’t get me wrong, I’m still choosing MD>DO, but don’t you think bone manipulation could be useful in specialties like PM&R, sports med, or other branches of family med?

Don't you think a medical license could be useful?

 

[deleted804295]

FTFY.

To follow up Anatomy grey's astute comments, for the True Believers, OMM/OMT is not merely a treatment modality, it's a belief system. They are very prone to magic thinking and confirmation bias.

You're an adcom at a DO school though. 😱

Personally I think DOs are pretty cool. I'd trust one over an MD or chiropractor for bone issues and back/knee pain.

 

[deleted859689]

I would just go to an ortho, either MD or DO

 

[R=1-sin(theta)]

You mean their marketing schemes?

Eyeroll


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$2000 to reserve a DO seat and it's non-refundable? LMAO, some holistic DO DO principles for you. Worse than Cal North State if you ask me.

 

[Goro]

You're an adcom at a DO school though. 😱

Personally I think DOs are pretty cool. I'd trust one over an MD or chiropractor for bone issues and back/knee pain.

We look at our True Believer colleagues as we do our eccentric relatives. We love them, but when they're out of the room, we shake our heads and wonder. My dear friend Dr KC, DO, one of my go-to people when I'm hurting, will sometimes go on about homeopathy and magnets. I've given up trying to reason with her because it's hard to reason with people on a Mission from God.

 

[FISTMCLARGEHUGE]

Or PETA members?

Yeah the HMS students are always outside my house on weekends protesting/yelling something about me going to class Monday through Saturday and refinancing my mortgage to their tuition

 

[Goro]

$2000 to reserve a DO seat and it's non-refundable? LMAO, some holistic DO DO principles for you. Worse than Cal North State if you ask me.

Think of it as insurance. You'll make it back as an attending.

 

[Mkif586]

Is stigma in the workplace real though? I mean, do MDs and other medical personnel look down on DOs thinking that they are less smart? (Not talking about PDs).

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Is stigma in the workplace real though? I mean, do MDs and other medical personnel look down on DOs thinking that they are less smart? (Not talking about PDs).

Yes. But Mds do it to each other too. The Ivy grads do it to non Ivy grads. Pedigree bigotry is a real thing. Dont worry about others feeling superior. Worry about being an excellent physician and they will come to you.

 

[deleted804295]

Is stigma in the workplace real though? I mean, do MDs and other medical personnel look down on DOs thinking that they are less smart? (Not talking about PDs).

No. In fact I actually look up to DOs particularly ones in difficult to get into specialties like derm because they had to go through so much bs.

 

[medwriter87]

You think the people who work hard during undergrad shouldnt have the ability to distinguish themselves as md?

Your comment makes no sense. You can slack off in undergrad and still get an MD from the caribbean with a beating pulse these days.

 

[Isoval]

You think the people who work hard during undergrad shouldnt have the ability to distinguish themselves as md?

Being at a DO school does not translate to being undistinguished in undergrad.

This also reads like you think that the DO degree is a punishment. It's not, and I really shouldn't have to explain that one.

 

[ThatGIguy]

Being at a DO school does not translate to being undistinguished in undergrad.

This also reads like you think that the DO degree is a punishment. It's not, and I really shouldn't have to explain that one.

If it’s truly not a punishment then there should still be a MD and DO degree respectively, not one combined degree as OP suggests

 

[Etopn23]

MD= Varsity
DO= Junior Varsity
Different levels, period.

That’s bull****. I can’t believe people believe this garbage. In the real world there’s no difference.

We are all working towards the same goal. No need to bash our peers.

 

[Goro]

MD= Varsity
DO= Junior Varsity
Different levels, period.

Only in the minds of ignorant pre-meds.

 

[Sephirakra]

MD= Varsity
DO= Junior Varsity
Different levels, period.

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