What are the Pros and Cons of Letters grades Vs Pass/Fail

[futurephysician57]

I hear people complaining about letter grades but I don't get why

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[WedgeDawg]

Are you talking about med school or undergrad

 

[futurephysician57]

Are you talking about med school or undergrad

Medical school

 

[WedgeDawg]

Medical school

It's less stressful. The difference between a 90% and an 89% in terms of knowledge or application is literally meaningless. However, if a 90% was the cutoff for an A the distinction would matter for some stupid arbitrary reason. But for me both are just a pass so if I get an 89% I don't care at all and I'm happy that I 1) passed and 2) did pretty well. Why put yourself through unnecessary stress?

Preclinical grades don't really mean anything anyway unless your school uses them for AOA. The main differentiation is still step 1 and to a lesser extent clinical grades.

That being said, some students have commented that having letter grades keeps them motivated and a pass/fail curriculum wouldn't so if that's your thing maybe grades are better, but if you can't find intrinsic motivation, you probably aren't going to be super happy in medicine anyway.

 

[Lawpy]

It's less stressful. The difference between a 90% and an 89% in terms of knowledge or application is literally meaningless. However, if a 90% was the cutoff for an A the distinction would matter for some stupid arbitrary reason. But for me both are just a pass so if I get an 89% I don't care at all and I'm happy that I 1) passed and 2) did pretty well. Why put yourself through unnecessary stress?

Preclinical grades don't really mean anything anyway unless your school uses them for AOA. The main differentiation is still step 1 and to a lesser extent clinical grades.

That being said, some students have commented that having letter grades keeps them motivated and a pass/fail curriculum wouldn't so if that's your thing maybe grades are better, but if you can't find intrinsic motivation, you probably aren't going to be super happy in medicine anyway.

it would be nice if all medical schools made preclinical years unranked P/F.

 

[takeurmeds02]

That being said, some students have commented that having letter grades keeps them motivated and a pass/fail curriculum wouldn't so if that's your thing maybe grades are better, but if you can't find intrinsic motivation, you probably aren't going to be super happy in medicine anyway.

In terms of school rankings, exactly this. I truly believe that you're only going to perform as well as you're going to perform. No one else's score is going to change that. If it does, then you weren't busting your ass to begin with but it shouldn't even be about that. You should only be trying to beat your previous best; wherever you fall in rank, is where you fall. I'm more concerned with learning the material well enough for Step 1.

 

[futurephysician57]

In terms of school rankings, exactly this. I truly believe that you're only going to perform as well as you're going to perform. No one else's score is going to change that. If it does, then you weren't busting your ass to begin with but it shouldn't even be about that. You should only be trying to beat your previous best; wherever you fall in rank, is where you fall. I'm more concerned with learning the material well enough for Step 1.

Thank you so much

 

[aldol16]

For one, letter grades aren't particularly conducive to a collaborative learning environment because you're more likely to be competing against your peers to get those high grades and/or AOA. This also isn't so good for mental health, as it induces unnecessary stress. You are an adult and should be learning for yourself - not for some arbitrary extrinsic value attached to an "A." Most top schools have adopted a P/F policy for pre-clinical grades, although many still retain AOA and so it's not exactly clear whether there is an internal ranking done in the preclinical years or if AOA is calculated entirely based on the clinical clerkships. Some top schools have gotten rid of AOA, however.

 

[7331poas]

for some stupid arbitrary reason.

And a 70 versus 69 is meaningless too. I dont think that is sound reasoning.

 

[WedgeDawg]

And a 70 versus 69 is meaningless too. I dont think that is sound reasoning.

Pass fail schools will usually scale their pass cutoff if the median is lower than expected / more people are getting below a 70 than expected.

For example, for us, in order to pass an exam, you either have to get a 70+ OR you can be no more than 2 standard deviations below the median, whichever is lower. So, if the median is a 75 and the St.Dev is, for example, 6, you can still pass with a 63.

The 70 supersedes the standard deviation rule if the median is high, so an 85 median with a St.Dev of 4 means that you still only need a 70 to pass, not a 76. Thus, in order to fail, you have to be in the bottom 2.5% of the class AND get below a 70, and if you're in that group, you most likely don't have sound understanding of the material.

The scoring system makes it so that even if you don't have a sound understanding of the material, you can still pass. We have had pass cutoffs in the 50s before. If you are failing, you are almost definitely (I would say 99% probability) in the category of not getting out of the block what you needed to.

So no, I would argue that this system is not arbitrary because it's scaled to the performance of the class on any particular test and designed to fail people who fall through two thresholds, one of which is arbitrary and one of which is determined statistically rather than just being caught by a single arbitrary threshold (i.e. 89 vs 90).

 

[AggieDoc45]

Before school started, I was definitely against P/F. Now that I am through my first semester, I definitely would recommend going to a P/F school. The amount of studying required to honor (at least at my school) is pretty insane, and most of the differentiating A/B type questions were random minutiae from our syllabus. Doing P/F allows you free time to do meaningful things like research, shadow, pursue hobbies, etc, and would probably be much less stressful.

 

[7331poas]

Pass fail schools will usually scale their pass cutoff if the median is lower than expected / more people are getting below a 70 than expected.

For example, for us, in order to pass an exam, you either have to get a 70+ OR you can be no more than 2 standard deviations below the median, whichever is lower. So, if the median is a 75 and the St.Dev is, for example, 6, you can still pass with a 63.

The 70 supersedes the standard deviation rule if the median is high, so an 85 median with a St.Dev of 4 means that you still only need a 70 to pass, not a 76. Thus, in order to fail, you have to be in the bottom 2.5% of the class AND get below a 70, and if you're in that group, you most likely don't have sound understanding of the material.

The scoring system makes it so that even if you don't have a sound understanding of the material, you can still pass. We have had pass cutoffs in the 50s before. If you are failing, you are almost definitely (I would say 99% probability) in the category of not getting out of the block what you needed to.

So no, I would argue that this system is not arbitrary because it's scaled to the performance of the class on any particular test and designed to fail people who fall through two thresholds, one of which is arbitrary and one of which is determined statistically rather than just being caught by a single arbitrary threshold (i.e. 89 vs 90).

2 standard deviations is an arbitrary cutoff. Why not 1.99 or 2.01?

 

[WedgeDawg]

2 standard deviations is an arbitrary cutoff. Why not 1.99 or 2.01?

Now you're just being childish. If you want to have a real conversation, let me know.

 

[7331poas]

Now you're just being childish. If you want to have a real conversation, let me know.

Yours is the childish stance. Society places "arbitrary" benchmarks all the time for various factors. Thats no reason to discredit the usefulness of an A versus B or a Pass versus Fail.

 

[desiredmembername123]

Yours is the childish stance. Society places "arbitrary" benchmarks all the time for various factors. Thats no reason to discredit the usefulness of an A versus B or a Pass versus Fail.

I think what is important here though is the reduction of the relevancy of the arbitrary cut offs for 90% of the class (at least). With a A/B/C/D scale the entire class will most likely have to worry about where they lie on the scale, except maybe the top 5%. With a P/F system, only those that are in danger about failing have to worry about an arbitrary cut off. With the system WedgeDawg talked about, it is maybe even less that need to worry about that. If I am scoring at 85% on tests, idgaf about the 70% cutoff, I am way above it. If it was an A/B/C/D scale, suddenly I am worried about arbitrary cutoffs.

 

[kb1900]

I only got interviews at P/F schools. I wouldn't make it if I had to spend 2 more years in classes with people who maintain their "premed" attitude towards classes and grades

 

[PB&Jam]

What is AOA?

 

[Chelsea FC]

@WedgeDawg and others. How much of a factor do you think students value O/F vs grades in their decision making process? ?? Right now for me it's the second most important thing to be tied with Location with both behind fit. Do you think it makes such a huge difference in experience to be valued that much? ?

 

[WedgeDawg]

I think what is important here though is the reduction of the relevancy of the arbitrary cut offs for 90% of the class (at least). With a A/B/C/D scale the entire class will most likely have to worry about where they lie on the scale, except maybe the top 5%. With a P/F system, only those that are in danger about failing have to worry about an arbitrary cut off. With the system WedgeDawg talked about, it is maybe even less that need to worry about that. If I am scoring at 85% on tests, idgaf about the 70% cutoff, I am way above it. If it was an A/B/C/D scale, suddenly I am worried about arbitrary cutoffs.

Having the only cutoff to worry about being very low (compared to what you're used to in undergrad) definitely helps.

What is AOA?

Alpha Omega Alpha. It's the medical school honor society (think Phi Beta Kappa except it actually makes a somewhat significant impact upon your residency application). It's not an end all be all, but specialties like ENT and Derm have >40% of their matched applicants be AOA and many top programs will only interview you if you are AOA (or come from a feeder med school). Not something to worry about until you're actually in med school (or don't even worry about it then).

@WedgeDawg and others. How much of a factor do you think students value O/F vs grades in their decision making process? ?? Right now for me it's the second most important thing to be tied with Location with both behind fit. Do you think it makes such a huge difference in experience to be valued that much? ?

I mean, for me it was super important but luckily I only got accepted to P/F schools so I didn't have to worry. I couldn't imaging going to a non-P/F med school. However, I think you should also talk to students at non-P/F med schools to get their perspective. Everyone here knows I totally love P/F but perhaps I'm biased, so ensure that you talk to the other side before you ascribe any sort of value to grading system. I have loved all of med school (except for my 1.5 week embryology block that was horrible) and I think that P/F played an enormous part in my happiness and quality of life.

 

[7331poas]

Eh. I think I wouldnt care about grading. I have no interest in half assing my way through preclinicals so its not a concern. Additionally if I was the type of person getting mid 80s my way through id have to question my own motivation and work ethic.

I dont think there is any question that Pass Fail is less stress. But thats not the most important factor

 

[Astra]

Additionally if I was the type of person getting mid 80s my way through id have to question my own motivation and work ethic.

I think you underestimate the rigor of medical school. Often times, passing an exam is difficult, even for the smartest of students.

 

[mcloaf]

Additionally if I was the type of person getting mid 80s my way through id have to question my own motivation and work ethic.

That moment does in fact come for many people after they start medical school, and it's often not because they aren't working hard. Everybody plans on being at the top of their med school class but most aren't.

 

[750335]

Eh. I think I wouldnt care about grading. I have no interest in half assing my way through preclinicals so its not a concern. Additionally if I was the type of person getting mid 80s my way through id have to question my own motivation and work ethic.

I dont think there is any question that Pass Fail is less stress. But thats not the most important factor

You say that now. Many schools are moving to p/f for the reasons @WedgeDawg outlined; doubt such schools have students who went in wanting to half ass their way as you put it. I have been accepted into p/f schools and letter grade schools, and I'm sticking with P/F just for the sake of my sanity. If I didn't have a choice then yes, I can suck it up but I do, and I'm taking that option and sprinting with it. I have friends or family in both types of schools, those in P/F schools need more intrinsic motivation no doubt, they are also significantly more relaxed and just enjoying med school. In fact, I will go as far as to say schools moving their step 1 requirement to 3rd year are a valid consideration to take into account if you have the option.