What courses and MCAT should one have at a min to feel competent for the Caribb

[DrMagic]

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The people here are being really arrogant if they are not joking.

PLENTY of success stories come from the Caribbeans. Is it worse then DO and MD in US? Of course, but if you work hard there you can be successful.

That's a fair comment, in a sense there are a lot of caribbean success stories but also a lot of failures. Interestingly close to home, everyone I have known that went to the caribbean from my undergraduate university is doing great so far. Some either matched back to the residency at their undergraduate state school, while others have made it into clinicals at nice places near their homes, or in california. I will find out more though as the bulk of them apply to residency, that is the kicker, but interestingly some of the most successful residency matchers of the caribbean came from my school. Most folks I know who went to the caribbean had horrible performance in the classroom, while another I know got around medium grades, but an MCAT that would infer an IQ of about 10, she is doing good now.

 

[NYRN]

That's a fair comment, in a sense there are a lot of caribbean success stories but also a lot of failures. Interestingly close to home, everyone I have known that went to the caribbean from my undergraduate university is doing great so far. Some either matched back to the residency at their undergraduate state school, while others have made it into clinicals at nice places near their homes, or in california. I will find out more though as the bulk of them apply to residency, that is the kicker, but interestingly some of the most successful residency matchers of the caribbean came from my school. Most folks I know who went to the caribbean had horrible performance in the classroom, while another I know got around medium grades, but an MCAT that would infer an IQ of about 10, she is doing good now.

I work with many doctors who are carib grads, and they are awesome, have landed fellowships in top hospitals and it seemed that carib is the way to go.

However, I have also seen a reduction in the pasts year or two of hospitals that are accepting carib grads for med school rotations, some specialties in my hospital that used to be 50/50 med/american (MD/DO)grads are not accepting foriegn grads, in addition to residents who are in their 2nd and 3rd prelim year because they can't match and even grads who didn't match prelim and are doing research as assistants.

NY has always been carib friendly as far as rotations and residency, but now it all seems to be changing for the worst. I'm sure that if someone really kicks ass on the step exam and has great grades than they may be able to land a residency of their choice, but for me personally, I'm not willing to take that risk. If I was in this premed game 5 years ago, it would have been all good, but at this point, its too big of a gamble for me.
Everyone should do what is right for them though.

 

[235788]

Maybe you should consider another career choice if your set on becoming a caribbeaner

 

[iceman132]

SGU has about 4000 medical students, which is about 11-12 times the size of my medical school. The med school class I started with (before I went off to do my PhD) had 87 graduates: six matched ortho and two matched plastics. There's no way that ratio is true at any Caribbean school.

For Ortho (2009 data so it's likely worse now), 589 of 744 the US seniors who applied matched. The numbers for independent applicant (who includes DO, US med grads who graduated in a previous year and all other grads from around the world), the numbers were 53 of 179. My educated guess is that most of those 53 spots went to DO and previous US grads.

For integrated plastics, the numbers are: U.S senior - 85/162, independent - 12/29, with the same caveats.

These numbers will only become more unfavorable to imgs as the number of new U.S. allopathic (and osteopathic) seniors increases with new medical schools opening. By the time you finish med school at SGU your chances at matching to a competitive surgical specialty will be much lower than the low chances you have today.



The Caribbean was an okay choice twenty years ago. Now, it's like playing the lottery to go there. You may get lucky and graduate and get a US residency, but probably not. The new factors against Caribbean grads are these:

1) More U.S. allopathic and osteopathic medical schools have opened over the last few years and more will open in the next few years.

2) Most U.S. med schools are getting pressure to expand their class sizes and are acquiescing to that pressure (mine has expanded class size by about 20% in 4 years).

3) There is no new money for residency funding: there aren't many new slots. So we have more U.S. medical graduates (and imgs) going after the same number of spots.

4) The clinical sites in the US for the Caribbean schools are in jeopardy.

5) "All-in" has been instituted for the 2013 match. That means no more pre-matching. This will significantly hurt the chances of IMGs to match in the US.

Anyone who says the Caribbean is still a good option for medical school is creating false hope.

I don't think anyone said they think it's a "good" option. Depending on how you define "good"

It is a last resort and it is the very last option for people but saying it is like the lottery is just wrong. If you work your tail off there then there is definitely a lot of success stories.

 

[Swiss Medical]

This thread is intense. Whenever I hear people talking about the Caribbean, they are usually very objective and do not bash it; they just treat like a regular alternative. Even Dr. Freedman, qith whom I worked with told me that many qualified applicants are wanting to go carib now. Just from this thread alone, it is very apparent that I should really stay away from there...

 

[45408]

I don't think anyone said they think it's a "good" option. Depending on how you define "good"

It is a last resort and it is the very last option for people but saying it is like the lottery is just wrong. If you work your tail off there then there is definitely a lot of success stories.

Focus your efforts on the right goals. Work your tail off and get into a US school.

 

[Just Joshin]

Honestly, if I came in with an MD-PhD or a Wash U medical degree, I really think they could careless what my step 1 score was. It is all about perception of brain power, or a high powered, high class institution.

Didn't you say just a few posts ago that the name of your school isn't the only thing PDs look at and that lots of other things factor in?

How old are you that age is such an issue that you'd consider going to the Caribbean?

 

[iceman132]

Focus your efforts on the right goals. Work your tail off and get into a US school.

That's not an option for some people.

Getting into an MD/DO school is insanely competitive. In order to have the capacity to become a doctor you need a 24 on the MCat (Which used to be the norm). However, to even have a crack in a lot of MD schools you need a 30.

For some people it is just TOO competitive. It's not to say they don't have the same passion or capabilities to become a good doctor.

 

[NYRN]

That's not an option for some people.

Getting into an MD/DO school is insanely competitive. In order to have the capacity to become a doctor you need a 24 on the MCat (Which used to be the norm). However, to even have a crack in a lot of MD schools you need a 30.

For some people it is just TOO competitive. It's not to say they don't have the same passion or capabilities to become a good doctor.

I agree that scores aren't everything, but what about the fact that Carib grads are having a harder and harder time getting rotations and more importantly matching? If someone is planning on going into primary care only then maybe it's a good option but if someone wants a surgical or competitive medical specialty it becomes much more difficult.

The Ross students I have been talking to recently have been complaining about getting no help from the school in setting up clinical rotations and that if they could do it over they would have reapplied to american md/do schools. That has pretty much cemented my decision to not apply to these schools since I'm getting the info from the horses mouth and not rumors or heresay.

 

[physicsnerd42]

That's not an option for some people.

Getting into an MD/DO school is insanely competitive. In order to have the capacity to become a doctor you need a 24 on the MCat (Which used to be the norm). However, to even have a crack in a lot of MD schools you need a 30.

For some people it is just TOO competitive. It's not to say they don't have the same passion or capabilities to become a good doctor.

I disagree with this. Med school is competitive to get into but it's not too competitive. Some people who apply are actually incapable of doing medicine even if they possess the passion. If someone can't get above a 3.0 in undergrad (much easier than med school) and get a 30 on the MCAT (not nearly as difficult as step 1 of the USMLE) then what makes you think they are qualified to go to med school and excel there? Being a good doctor implies that one can actually master the material necessary to be a doctor.

 

[blizzah]

That's not an option for some people.

Getting into an MD/DO school is insanely competitive. In order to have the capacity to become a doctor you need a 24 on the MCat (Which used to be the norm). However, to even have a crack in a lot of MD schools you need a 30.

For some people it is just TOO competitive. It's not to say they don't have the same passion or capabilities to become a good doctor.

If they can't crack a 24 or 30 on the MCAT, good luck reaching strong enough Step 1 scores to find a residency back in the US. 24 is the average, shouldn't physicians be better than average?

The people who succeed after going to the Caribbean are the same people who would have eventually gotten into a school in the US as well. That is to say the most driven and academically inclined individuals. Those who never had a chance here but head to Ross or SGU are still going to have no chance.

 

[iceman132]

If they can't crack a 24 or 30 on the MCAT, good luck reaching strong enough Step 1 scores to find a residency back in the US. 24 is the average, shouldn't physicians be better than average?

The people who succeed after going to the Caribbean are the same people who would have eventually gotten into a school in the US as well. That is to say the most driven and academically inclined individuals. Those who never had a chance here but head to Ross or SGU are still going to have no chance.

24 is simply the COMPETENCY to become a doctor. (And before it got so competitive this was the norm) Not everyone is a great standardized test taker. There are other factors that can go into it. If you make a 24 (technically) you can be a competent doctor.

I agree that the people in the Caribbean would have eventually got into a US MD school but the Caribbean are still a viable path.

 

[iceman132]

I disagree with this. Med school is competitive to get into but it's not too competitive. Some people who apply are actually incapable of doing medicine even if they possess the passion. If someone can't get above a 3.0 in undergrad (much easier than med school) and get a 30 on the MCAT (not nearly as difficult as step 1 of the USMLE) then what makes you think they are qualified to go to med school and excel there? Being a good doctor implies that one can actually master the material necessary to be a doctor.

It is simply a way to give those that didn't do quite as well in undergrad a second chance.

The bottom line is if you don't work hard in medical school you are going to flunk out or quit. The people with a 3.0 and a 24 have the ABILITY to become a good doctor. If they keep making the same mistakes then they are screwed. But it is possible that their mindset can change when they are in medical school

 

[LaFleur]

That's not an option for some people.

Getting into an MD/DO school is insanely competitive. In order to have the capacity to become a doctor you need a 24 on the MCat (Which used to be the norm). However, to even have a crack in a lot of MD schools you need a 30.

For some people it is just TOO competitive. It's not to say they don't have the same passion or capabilities to become a good doctor.

If they can't crack a 24 or 30 on the MCAT, good luck reaching strong enough Step 1 scores to find a residency back in the US. 24 is the average, shouldn't physicians be better than average?

The people who succeed after going to the Caribbean are the same people who would have eventually gotten into a school in the US as well. That is to say the most driven and academically inclined individuals. Those who never had a chance here but head to Ross or SGU are still going to have no chance.

👍

I can understand screwing up during college and having to make up for it, but then you need to get your a** in line and get done what you need to get done in order to get into medical school. If you're driven like that, it's better to put off the application for a couple of years so you can get your stuff in order before you apply to get into a US school.

If, on the other hand, you didn't do well enough (and are not borderline) during college/the MCAT to get in anywhere (MD or DO) and you tried your hardest, maybe medicine isn't the career path for you? Not trying to be mean or crush any dreams here, but medicine isn't for everyone, and that's why the application process is the way it is. The process is set up in such a way that not every premed is going to make it. It's a selective field. The real battle doesn't begin until you get to med school, and if you couldn't get in as an undergrad what makes you think you can get it done when you get to med school?

I agree with blizzah that the people from the Caribbean who make it are most likely the people who would have gotten into a US school had they done all that they could to do so. If you're an applicant with poor stats and you've got the strength to stick with the process for a few years and really, really try your hardest (with grades, ECs, networking and building connections), you'll probably surprise yourself with how well you can do and eventually make it in somewhere. And if you don't, then you should probably strongly consider switching fields.

That's the reality of it. Medicine is a selective field. Not everyone can cut it.

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

I don't understand this thread. OP is dead set on a surgical specialty, pretty confident that he won't get into an MD school, and unwilling to listen to the peoples' advice or the data? Nothing new here I guess...

 

[Law2Doc]

24 is simply the COMPETENCY to become a doctor. (And before it got so competitive this was the norm) Not everyone is a great standardized test taker. There are other factors that can go into it. If you make a 24 (technically) you can be a competent doctor.

... path.

24 is the average for all takers. The average for maticulants is much higher. The MCAT does not measure competency for being a physician. I dont know where you got that but it isnt true. There will be lousy physicians with high scores and good ones with low scores. The test doesn't do what you suggest. It simply tests knowledge of the prereqs, and gives med schools a cross school yardstick.

 

[LaFleur]

It is simply a way to give those that didn't do quite as well in undergrad a second chance.

There are other and better ways to give yourself a second chance. And I am saying this as someone with an admittedly not good undegrad record.

The bottom line is if you don't work hard in medical school you are going to flunk out or quit. The people with a 3.0 and a 24 have the ABILITY to become a good doctor. If they keep making the same mistakes then they are screwed. But it is possible that their mindset can change when they are in medical school

Ok, here is my opinion on this. Yes, something in their mindset needs to change, but why risk going off to a caribbean med school before you're sure your mindset has changed? That sounds like a big risk to me. Work hard, make the changes you need to make (show adcoms that you can actually do it), and then go to a US medical school knowing that you're not going to make the same mistakes that you did in your past and that you're not going to have to fight tooth and nail to get a residency spot. That's what makes sense to me.

 

[iceman132]

24 is the average for all takers. The average for maticulants is much higher. The MCAT does not measure competency for being a physician. I dont know where you got ht but it isnt true. There will be lousy physicians with high scores and good ones with low scores. The test doesn't do what you suggest. It simply tests knowledge of the prereqs, and gives med schools a cross school yardstick.

Well, the only score that directly connects with doing well in medical school is the verbal.....

A 24 (8 on each section) is the measuring stick to have the COMPETENCY to become a doctor and do well in medical school. This is just what the pre med advisor/former dermatologist MD at our University has said from the research he has done.

 

[EsseQuamVideri]

Personally, I think medschool in the carrib would be great. You get a nice tan, dinners on the beach, you can still tell chicks you're a "medical student," and above all, you can finally get your parents to stop nagging you about living on their couch eating microwave mac and cheese.

 

[iceman132]

There are other and better ways to give yourself a second chance. And I am saying this as someone with an admittedly not good undegrad record.



Ok, here is my opinion on this. Yes, something in their mindset needs to change, but why risk going off to a caribbean med school before you're sure your mindset has changed? That sounds like a big risk to me. Work hard, make the changes you need to make (show adcoms that you can actually do it), and then go to a US medical school knowing that you're not going to make the same mistakes that you did in your past and that you're not going to have to fight tooth and nail to get a residency spot. That's what makes sense to me.

I don't have a good undergrad record and the LAST thing I want is to go to a Caribbean school.

However, I still think it is a viable path.

Just being IN medical school can be a confidence booster. And whether you work your butt off doing postbac classes or go into a Caribbean school you can still be successful.

 

[Law2Doc]

Well, the only score that directly connects with doing well in medical school is the verbal.....

A 24 (8 on each section) is the measuring stick to have the COMPETENCY to become a doctor and do well in medical school. This is just what the pre med advisor/former dermatologist MD at our University has said from the research he has done.

First, you overstate things when you say the verbal score "directly connects" with doing well in med school. Studies have shown a small statistical correlation. That is not a direct connection.

Second, nobody in the medical school admissions game or in the organization that administers the MCAT considers it to measure competency in any real way, let alone place a specific threshold score for competency.

Third, until your dermatologist publishes this "research" so it can be peer reviewed, it should be considered dubious at best.

 

[Person0715]

Personally, I think medschool in the carrib would be great. You get a nice tan, dinners on the beach, you can still tell chicks you're a "medical student," and above all, you can finally get your parents to stop nagging you about living on their couch eating microwave mac and cheese.

And they will start nagging you again when you're back on their couch because the Caribbean did not pan out as originally planned.

But in all seriousness, I think the Caribbean should only be a very last resort. I am currently shadowing a doctor who graduated from the Caribbean and, from what I've observed, he's a great guy and a fantastic doctor, but for every one successful doctor from the Caribbean, there are probably a slew of those that didn't make it.

 

[gravitywave]

That's a fair comment, in a sense there are a lot of caribbean success stories but also a lot of failures. Interestingly close to home, everyone I have known that went to the caribbean from my undergraduate university is doing great so far. Some either matched back to the residency at their undergraduate state school, while others have made it into clinicals at nice places near their homes, or in california. I will find out more though as the bulk of them apply to residency, that is the kicker, but interestingly some of the most successful residency matchers of the caribbean came from my school. Most folks I know who went to the caribbean had horrible performance in the classroom, while another I know got around medium grades, but an MCAT that would infer an IQ of about 10, she is doing good now.

these students are the ones you know about. the ones for whom it didn't go so well (and they are out there, trust me) are obviously reluctant to advertise their failures.

 

[LaFleur]

I don't have a good undergrad record and the LAST thing I want is to go to a Caribbean school.

However, I still think it is a viable path.

Just being IN medical school can be a confidence booster. And whether you work your butt off doing postbac classes or go into a Caribbean school you can still be successful.

I agree that you can still be successful. It is possible. Then again, a lot of things are possible.

But I think that going out of the country to do this degree should be your last option. Especially with more medical schools opening up. There's no reason to put yourself at a disadvantage if you don't have to.

 

[iceman132]

First, you overstate things when you say the verbal score "directly connects" with doing well in med school. Studies have shown a small statistical correlation. That is not a direct connection.

Second, nobody in the medical school admissions game or in the organization that administers the MCAT considers it to measure competency in any real way, let alone place a specific threshold score for competency.

Third, until your dermatologist publishes this "research" so it can be peer reviewed, it should be considered dubious at best.

I agree with your points. I should probably word my posts better. I don't have the MCat scores for people from decades before but from what I understand the scores were much lower then those of today.

Grade inflation in undergrad doesn't mean that someone with a worse GPA and MCat can't become a capable doctor. If the person is willing to work hard in the Caribbean then I have heard they can be very successful. The amount of hate that the Caribbeans gets is unwarranted in my opinion.

If someone has the figures on how many people are actually without jobs after completing the programs that may be helpful.

 

[gravitywave]

24 is the average for all takers. The average for maticulants is much higher. The MCAT does not measure competency for being a physician. I dont know where you got that but it isnt true. There will be lousy physicians with high scores and good ones with low scores. The test doesn't do what you suggest. It simply tests knowledge of the prereqs, and gives med schools a cross school yardstick.

disagree. the MCAT doesn't really test knowledge of the pre-reqs so much as it tests critical thinking skills and test-taking skills in general. many students with good grades have to unlearn their old study skills and adopt new ones appropriate to the test before they are able to do well. Furthermore, I don't have the article handy, but there was published data that suggested MCAT < 26 was correlated with a higher Step I failure rate.

I believe the current admissions environment that prioritizes a 30 over a 29 is pretty silly, however. everyone knows that to use the MCAT (a normative test) to try to predict Step performance (a competency test) is pretty inappropriate past a very low threshold. and don't get me started on the schools that insist most of their students have upper 30s or better. I think that's ridiculous, considering the margin of error in how the exam is scored and how thin those slices are.

 

[gravitywave]

I don't have a good undergrad record and the LAST thing I want is to go to a Caribbean school.

However, I still think it is a viable path.

Just being IN medical school can be a confidence booster. And whether you work your butt off doing postbac classes or go into a Caribbean school you can still be successful.

again, what is it about weak grades and lackluster MCAT performance that suggest the potential for success in medical school? anything else is just anecdotal and wishful thinking.

Any UG GPA > 2.9 can be repaired sufficient to gain admission to a DO school. Otherwise you can take classes until you feel ready for a SMP. The Caribbean is never the answer. Never.

I agree with your points. I should probably word my posts better. I don't have the MCat scores for people from decades before but from what I understand the scores were much lower then those of today.

Grade inflation in undergrad doesn't mean that someone with a worse GPA and MCat can't become a capable doctor. If the person is willing to work hard in the Caribbean then I have heard they can be very successful. The amount of hate that the Caribbeans gets is unwarranted in my opinion.

If someone has the figures on how many people are actually without jobs after completing the programs that may be helpful.

I think you need to take a look at the recent Match data (nrmp.org). the last couple years are already showing the impact that expanding class sizes from state-side schools are having on the match rate for IMGs. this effect will only sharpen as more US schools come online. the NRMP has also now instituted an "all-in" policy that forces PDs to place all of their residency slots in the Match, ie no more holding spaces to hire IMGs outside the Match. the Carib was still a good bet up until about 10 years ago, it's gotten steadily worse since, and will continue to do so.

consensus is that, as things stand now, the ultimate match rate into categorical slots for matriculants to the Big 4 Carib schools is hovering around 60%. this is certain to worsen with time, don't forget that you won't be Matching until 2016.

no one in here is hating on Caribs, in fact it's quite the opposite. The Caribbean is now a bad investment, and we want to make sure that people understand that and stay away - for their own good.

 

[DrMagic]

I agree that scores aren't everything, but what about the fact that Carib grads are having a harder and harder time getting rotations and more importantly matching? If someone is planning on going into primary care only then maybe it's a good option but if someone wants a surgical or competitive medical specialty it becomes much more difficult.

The Ross students I have been talking to recently have been complaining about getting no help from the school in setting up clinical rotations and that if they could do it over they would have reapplied to american md/do schools. That has pretty much cemented my decision to not apply to these schools since I'm getting the info from the horses mouth and not rumors or heresay.

This I have heard before, although not from the mouth of the beast. I have heard stories about students having problems going into clinicals. I will ask what my dad's friend's son's GPA was at AUC, and if everybody had no problems with clinicals there. Again, I have this feeling about Ross over the other schools that that is the king of all the cash cow rip off joints (not to say you can't be a top doc from there).

 

[DrMagic]

And they will start nagging you again when you're back on their couch because the Caribbean did not pan out as originally planned.

But in all seriousness, I think the Caribbean should only be a very last resort. I am currently shadowing a doctor who graduated from the Caribbean and, from what I've observed, he's a great guy and a fantastic doctor, but for every one successful doctor from the Caribbean, there are probably a slew of those that didn't make it.

Entering the Caribbean is like being a mob associate, you have a long way to go, have to do a lot of dirt, have to work really hard, you have the slimest of odds, and when you get somewhere you still have an upward climb.

 

[DrMagic]

I agree that you can still be successful. It is possible. Then again, a lot of things are possible.

But I think that going out of the country to do this degree should be your last option. Especially with more medical schools opening up. There's no reason to put yourself at a disadvantage if you don't have to.

What about going to the Royal College of Surgeons, the name of that school sounds nice. Can a European residency count?

 

[LaFleur]

Entering the Caribbean is like being a mob associate, you have a long way to go, have to do a lot of dirt, have to work really hard, you have the slimest of odds, and when you get somewhere you still have an upward climb.

So then why are you considering it? Please enlighten me.

 

[45408]

24 is simply the COMPETENCY to become a doctor. (And before it got so competitive this was the norm) Not everyone is a great standardized test taker. There are other factors that can go into it. If you make a 24 (technically) you can be a competent doctor.

I agree that the people in the Caribbean would have eventually got into a US MD school but the Caribbean are still a viable path.

And there are even more standardized tests once you get into med school than there are before it.

The amount of hate that the Caribbeans gets is unwarranted in my opinion.

Almost no one here is "hating" on it. Being a hater would imply some aspect of jealousy, or that we're hating on the success of those who go there. In fact, we're trying to warn people. The pre-meds telling you not to go there are basically increasing their own competition.

 

[iceman132]

And there are even more standardized tests once you get into med school than there are before it.


Almost no one here is "hating" on it. Being a hater would imply some aspect of jealousy, or that we're hating on the success of those who go there. In fact, we're trying to warn people. The pre-meds telling you not to go there are basically increasing their own competition.

The standardized tests are the same type of format as the MCat? I thought the boards are more akin to regular tests.

I don't see how hatred and jealousy are linked in this situation. I just see a bunch of people with an "intense dislike" for the Caribbeans (Which may be warranted). Things may have changed but the Caribbeans is not a death sentence from what I understand. (60% of graduates getting a job may be low but those 60% are still able to do well for themselves.)

 

[LaFleur]

What about going to the Royal College of Surgeons, the name of that school sounds nice. Can a European residency count?

Um...I don't know enough about this school to advise you on that.

Btw, if you finish residency in Europe, it does not count. You'll still have to take your USMLE's to be licensed in the US and redo your residency in the US if you want to practice here.

After they come to the US, some doctors choose not to or are unable to do this. This means that they are not allowed to practice in the US. I actually know a lot of FMGs who took the USMLE's and redid their training here and I also know a bunch who didn't.

Interestingly enough, I know someone personally who has redone his specific surgical residency and specialization within it three times in three different countries. That's a lot of time spent training. 😱

 

[45408]

The standardized tests are the same type of format as the MCat? I thought the boards are more akin to regular tests.

No, they're pretty similar. Paragraph-long question stems, 4-6 possible answers (about half will be easily ruled out if you know the material, the final 2-3 options will usually seem pretty close). Most questions aren't as simple as "Which enzyme catalyzes this reaction?" They're 2-3 steps removed from that, with stems like "Your patient comes in with these symptoms. The drug you should prescribe him will likely cause which side effect?" They're even less like "regular" tests than the MCAT. At least from what I remember. Step 1 was three years ago, and the MCAT was seven years ago...

I don't see how hatred and jealousy are linked in this situation. I just see a bunch of people with an "intense dislike" for the Caribbeans (Which may be warranted). Things may have changed but the Caribbeans is not a death sentence from what I understand. (60% of graduates getting a job may be low but those 60% are still able to do well for themselves.)

If you graduate with $200K in debt, you would be wise to be looking for a job market where you weren't looking at a 40% chance of unemployment (just using your numbers).

 

[Astarael]

I don't see how hatred and jealousy are linked in this situation. I just see a bunch of people with an "intense dislike" for the Caribbeans (Which may be warranted). Things may have changed but the Caribbeans is not a death sentence from what I understand. (60% of graduates getting a job may be low but those 60% are still able to do well for themselves.)

First of all, it's not 60%, it's 50%. SGU might have a 60% match rate, but the aggregate for Caribbean schools in general is 50%. Secondly, it isn't 50% of everyone that goes there, it's 50% of the people who make it through the entire thing (I've heard of schools down there having attrition rates of anywhere between 15% and 50%). So depending on which school you go to, you have maybe a 40-50% chance of making it through to match a US allopathic residency. You have a 100% of being at least $50,000 dollars in debt by that time, if not upwards of $200,000 if you make it all the way through. That's a huge risk to take when you consider that you've got about a coin flip's chance of either being a doctor at the end or being financially ruined for a significant part of your adult life.

And all of this so you can be more or less shunted into family practice or internal medicine? There's a reason why 95% of the people who have responded to this thread have responded negatively. We're worried about people ruining their lives without knowing that there's a strong likelihood of it happening. If the hard data doesn't convince you, you can do a google search for Caribbean med school drop outs. I'm sure the blogs you find will be informative.

P.S. If you don't believe my numbers, you can look them up through the NRMP.

 

[NYRN]

This I have heard before, although not from the mouth of the beast. I have heard stories about students having problems going into clinicals. I will ask what my dad's friend's son's GPA was at AUC, and if everybody had no problems with clinicals there. Again, I have this feeling about Ross over the other schools that that is the king of all the cash cow rip off joints (not to say you can't be a top doc from there).

I work with some AUC grads who are now residents, and although I can't comment on how their clinical rotations went, I do see them (along with other Carib grads) repeating preliminary surgery years because they can't match categorical. I did not notice this prob 5 years ago, in fact we have some graduating residents from AUC who are going into competitive fellowships.

Although I don't have any sources, i have heard that the carib grads are not doing as well on the absite as American md/do grads are which is influencing program directors to overlook Carib grads in many cases.

 

[rHinO1]

That's not an option for some people.

Getting into an MD/DO school is insanely competitive. In order to have the capacity to become a doctor you need a 24 on the MCat (Which used to be the norm). However, to even have a crack in a lot of MD schools you need a 30.

For some people it is just TOO competitive. It's not to say they don't have the same passion or capabilities to become a good doctor.

Better learn this lesson sooner than later: Medical school is for people who earn the opportunity, not for people who just want it.

This applies to a lot of things in life.

 

[iceman132]

Better learn this lesson sooner than later: Medical school is for people who earn the opportunity, not for people who just want it.

This applies to a lot of things in life.

I am as conservative as they come and I believe in this philosophy. However, it is still a path that many people have found success in.

 

[yamaraja808]

Well, the only score that directly connects with doing well in medical school is the verbal.....

A 24 (8 on each section) is the measuring stick to have the COMPETENCY to become a doctor and do well in medical school. This is just what the pre med advisor/former dermatologist MD at our University has said from the research he has done.

Here is something I picked up from one of the SDN posters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_College_Admission_Test

Turns out verbal has the least correlation and biology has the most.

I disagree that competency of a "future doctor" can be measured by using the MCAT.

 

[gettheleadout]

First, you overstate things when you say the verbal score "directly connects" with doing well in med school. Studies have shown a small statistical correlation. That is not a direct connection.

Second, nobody in the medical school admissions game or in the organization that administers the MCAT considers it to measure competency in any real way, let alone place a specific threshold score for competency.

Third, until your dermatologist publishes this "research" so it can be peer reviewed, it should be considered dubious at best.

First I thought this...

Well, the only score that directly connects with doing well in medical school is the verbal.....

A 24 (8 on each section) is the measuring stick to have the COMPETENCY to become a doctor and do well in medical school. This is just what the pre med advisor/former dermatologist MD at our University has said from the research he has done.

but then I thought, "a Dermatologist quit practice to advise premeds?"