What do I need to do to make it where I want to be?

[TheSecretMedMom]

So here is where I am now:

cGPA: 3.31
sGPA: 3.58
ORM

I have read Goro's post on starting over. I'm asking for specific help about entrance into specific universities. I have a plan B (and C and D).

I only have the math portion of my pre-reqs done. All the rest will be done DIY post-bacc style.

Poor cGPA from failing a couple of French classes (long story). I had a 3.68 in my major (math) so I do believe it is possible to get a 3.7+ on post-bacc science courses. I've run the numbers. A range of 3.7-4.0 on post-bacc courses (min req for med school) puts my cGPA at 3.42-3.51 and sGPA at 3.65-3.82.

I have not taken the MCAT or started studying (re: lack of pre-reqs). I am an excellent standardized test taker, so I am hoping that works in my favor.

Now the hard part. It isn't very realistic to move away from where we live. This unfortunately means I need to apply to UCSF and Stanford. The best fit for me is UCSF. I am obviously climbing an uphill battle right now. One other card I have to play is several attendings at UCSF and Stanford know and like me. Some have offered to write recommendation letters for this journey.

I have a couple of years to work with since I'm at the beginning of my "starting over" journey. I want to do them right.



So the questions:

Is the 3.7 recommended post-bacc GPA enough given my cGPA? Or should I realistically aim higher? I want to be realistic in both what I can do, and what is needed. I know those things may not match, but I can try. I can theoretically hit the average sGPAs of UCSF and Stanford, but not the cGPAs. My cGPA will always be lower than the sGPA. How much is this going to hurt me? Is one more heavily weighted than the other?

What is my minimum goal for the MCAT to still get into one of these schools? Besides obviously hitting or exceeding the averages of 516 for UCSF and 518 for Stanford, does anyone know their minimum cutoffs or their actual spread of scores? Knowing my minimum goal helps me prep for standardized tests, and I have gotten perfect scores on them before, so what I do works for me.

What other things should I be looking at doing to help my application? I am conversationally fluent in Spanish, so there exists some good possibilities there with community service if I get certified through the medical interpreter courses at my local cc. I have no work history as a stay-at-home mom for the last 10 years.

Do I absolutely need research experience? How can I do this as a non-matriculated student? Matriculation is not an option, they will not accept anyone for a second bachelors degrees and I don't have enough pre-reqs for a Master's program in chem or bio. I've tried the matriculation option already.

Is this even possible? What are my real chances here? Be tough with me, I can take it.

I hear some schools are inclined to accept "reinvented" students, and some are not, where do UCSF and Stanford fall on this spectrum?

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[KnowledgeBot4000]

Is the 3.7 recommended post-bacc GPA enough given my cGPA? Or should I realistically aim higher? I want to be realistic in both what I can do, and what is needed. I know those things may not match, but I can try. I can theoretically hit the average sGPAs of UCSF and Stanford, but not the cGPAs. My cGPA will always be lower than the sGPA. How much is this going to hurt me? Is one more heavily weighted than the other?

Medical school is not like undergrad in the sense that even if you score a single college's average GPA + MCAT (or SAT for undergard), you're still unlikely to get accepted. This seems odd, because you'd think if you did a little worse than average you'd still have a great shot. But that's not how it works, especially if you're an ORM.

For example, imagine you have a 3.8 GPA + 517 MCAT. That might be a higher GPA + MCAT combo than almost every school's average. That said, if you apply to 30 schools, you're still not likely to get accepted into 15+.

A few years ago, I had several friends that were from California that applied to California schools. One in particular was an Asian woman with a 4.0 post-bacc GPA and a 37 MCAT (and I believe a reasonably high undergrad GPA as well, but I'm not positive about that). Not only clearly very intelligent and hard working from her numbers, but it's immediately apparent whenever you talked to her as well. She did not get into a single UC school, despite applying to all of them. This isn't an uncommon occurrence. Instead, she applied to 30+ schools and I believe got into 4 total, and is now a resident.

My point with all this is trying to get into 2 of the most competitive medical schools in the country, already starting with a disadvantage (low GPA and ORM), probably isn't a good idea unless you're also pretty happy with plans B, C, and D. You could do everything right (4.0 GPA, very high MCAT) and still not even get an interview. The happier you are with plans B, C, and D, the more reasonable "just going for it" becomes.

 

[star.buck]

Not to shoot your dreams down... but if you look up the acceptance rates for UCSF and Stanford... you’re looking at a 2.3% and a 2.2% chance of acceptance. Be prepared for this, and enter this track knowing this.

 

[TheSecretMedMom]

I just bought the MSAR, and it does answer several questions about the spread of MCAT and GPAs, which is helpful.

I appreciate honesty, so don't worry about that.

Not to shoot your dreams down... but if you look up the acceptance rates for UCSF and Stanford... you’re looking at a 2.3% and a 2.2% chance of acceptance. Be prepared for this, and enter this track knowing this.

I know. I honestly wish we lived in a different state going into this journey, it would make this a lot easier. I'm not in this for prestige or money, I just don't want to move my family if there is any way not to.

A few years ago, I had several friends that were from California that applied to California schools. One in particular was an Asian woman with a 4.0 post-bacc GPA and a 37 MCAT (and I believe a reasonably high undergrad GPA as well, but I'm not positive about that). Not only clearly very intelligent and hard working from her numbers, but it's immediately apparent whenever you talked to her as well. She did not get into a single UC school, despite applying to all of them. This isn't an uncommon occurrence. Instead, she applied to 30+ schools and I believe got into 4 total, and is now a resident.

This is what I am worried about. I do have a few OOS schools I would consider, and one I'm pretty sure I'd have a good shot at. I plan on at least applying, but I hope I don't have to use them. There is also a DO school near here I could go to, I'm just not sure if it is a good idea, given my desired specialty of pediatric critical care. I'm not interested in primary care.

I've considered all the other plans on par with plan A before, so I am totally comfortable with them. Right now it is also one of those situations where I know when I'm 80, if I don't try plan A, I'll be mad at myself.




How much is a great story of "why medicine" a hook at these schools? How much can it realistically compensate for these stats?

It is a really good story (really, really good) and pretty unique, I'm just not comfortable sharing it on a public forum. One that encompasses facing/overcoming some pretty hard things in life, makes it abundantly clear I know what I am getting into and can handle it, and expresses a unique perspective I can offer patients. I guess I'm hoping if I can at least hit these medians, that a great story and many positive relationships with current attendings would put me over the edge. Lots of people in my life are encouraging me that with my experience (the story) and reccs from attendings I should be very competitive, but I want to get a real sense for it, because these people are my loved ones and can be overly encouraging as loved ones are.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

If UCSF and Stanford are you only local options, then other than the required high metrics, you will need research as well as other ECs (clinical volunteering, non-clinical volunteering, shadowing, leadership position, etc).

But for the majority of medical schools not in the UCSF/Stanford class, research is not necessary, but ECs are.

 

[KnowledgeBot4000]

How much is a great story of "why medicine" a hook at these schools? How much can it realistically compensate for these stats?

It is a really good story (really, really good) and pretty unique, I'm just not comfortable sharing it on a public forum. One that encompasses facing/overcoming some pretty hard things in life, makes it abundantly clear I know what I am getting into and can handle it, and expresses a unique perspective I can offer patients. I guess I'm hoping if I can at least hit these medians, that a great story and many positive relationships with current attendings would put me over the edge. Lots of people in my life are encouraging me that with my experience (the story) and reccs from attendings I should be very competitive, but I want to get a real sense for it, because these people are my loved ones and can be overly encouraging as loved ones are.

No one really knows the answer to this. I would however guess only a small % of the stories a pre-med writes that they think are "really, really good stories" are genuinely perceived as "really, really good stories" by the reader (and the opinion of the story will differ from reader to reader anyways). I'd also guess a "great story" matters less for an ORM than a URM, because Asians just put up insane numbers so schools need to look for reasons to reject them, not find a reason to accept one with low numbers. Again though, this just my guess based on the experience of me and my friends as well as looking at the admissions data.

It's also probably worthwhile to keep in mind most people who apply to UCSF probably think they're excellent test takers, have impressive MCAT/GPAs (or a compelling reason for why they don't), have been told by friends/family/faculty they would make excellent medical students and physicians, and have a great story and compelling reason for why they should be accepted at a given school. Many probably also have connections. If they didn't have these things going for them, most students would save themselves the time and money and not even apply. Yet of those confident enough to apply, still only 2% get in.

Best of luck if you do decide to go for it. I just think it's worthwhile to understand the realities of this, and I think you're going to struggle getting honest advice off the internet. People are going to be unlikely to tell you "Trying to get into two of the most competitive medical schools in the country with a 3.3 GPA as an Asian is very unlikely to happen" even if it's true, because it's just not something you want to say to someone, especially if you work with them in a professional setting and you like them as a person. That said, crazier things have happened and again best of luck if you do pursue it.

 

[TheSecretMedMom]

To be clear, I am white, not Asian. I thought that counted as ORM, but maybe it doesn't, I just learned that acronym a few days ago. I don't know if it really changes anything, but I like to be clear.

I came here for the realities, so thank you for being frank.

(edit: I deleted/edited the following paragraph for privacy)
In regards to my story: I want to bring to patient care something that can't be taught, but only experienced.

I already assumed almost every single person applying at both schools are excellent test takers and have much better GPAs. It isn't that I am not keeping it in mind, it is that it is all I think about and I'm trying to find anyway I can to not have my application immediately tossed to the side. I know I am not a great applicant by the numbers, I've known that for months as I've been contemplating moving forward.

There isn't even a good reason why my GPA is less than stellar either. I just didn't try in my undergraduate work. I only went to school because people wouldn't stop bugging me about the importance of a degree. *To this day* I wish I hadn't. I'd be in a WAY better spot on my particular journey if I had stopped early like I wanted to. I now have to live with this choice though. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to make a comeback, like where are the best places to focus my efforts. Now I *want* this and am willing to fight for it.

Evidently I don't have even a remote chance at UCSF and Stanford. Fair enough. I am still going to try, but now I know I don't have a choice but to put several OOS schools and disrupt my family OR to move my contingencies up the ladder. I suspected as much from my own reading, but this confirms it.

If UCSF and Stanford are you only local options, then other than the required high metrics, you will need research as well as other ECs (clinical volunteering, non-clinical volunteering, shadowing, leadership position, etc).

But for the majority of medical schools not in the UCSF/Stanford class, research is not necessary, but ECs are.

Fair, but how do you access research as a student in my position? I am willing, I just don't know *how*. Any tips?

The other ECs I have ideas for, and a little bit of time to get that going. I'm at the beginning of my re-invention.

 

[star.buck]

I just bought the MSAR, and it does answer several questions about the spread of MCAT and GPAs, which is helpful.

I appreciate honesty, so don't worry about that.



I know. I honestly wish we lived in a different state going into this journey, it would make this a lot easier. I'm not in this for prestige or money, I just don't want to move my family if there is any way not to.



This is what I am worried about. I do have a few OOS schools I would consider, and one I'm pretty sure I'd have a good shot at. I plan on at least applying, but I hope I don't have to use them. There is also a DO school near here I could go to, I'm just not sure if it is a good idea, given my desired specialty of pediatric critical care. I'm not interested in primary care.

I've considered all the other plans on par with plan A before, so I am totally comfortable with them. Right now it is also one of those situations where I know when I'm 80, if I don't try plan A, I'll be mad at myself.




How much is a great story of "why medicine" a hook at these schools? How much can it realistically compensate for these stats?

It is a really good story (really, really good) and pretty unique, I'm just not comfortable sharing it on a public forum. One that encompasses facing/overcoming some pretty hard things in life, makes it abundantly clear I know what I am getting into and can handle it, and expresses a unique perspective I can offer patients. I guess I'm hoping if I can at least hit these medians, that a great story and many positive relationships with current attendings would put me over the edge. Lots of people in my life are encouraging me that with my experience (the story) and reccs from attendings I should be very competitive, but I want to get a real sense for it, because these people are my loved ones and can be overly encouraging as loved ones are.

I’m not familiar with California schools, just curious... is there a DO school nearby that would work for your needs? They do appreciate the nontraditionals and the “why” stories...

And just as a buffer to the story about the Asian woman with great stats who only got into 4/30 schools... I had mediocre stats, a CC for most of my prereqs, more compassionate with interactions than blatant-intelligence... I applied to only half a dozen or so Michigan and a few surrounding states... and was accepted into my preferred MD program (and withdrew from a good looking waitlist position at another). I have a great story too.

So many people told me I didn’t stand a chance, I should be a PA, or nurse, etc... I take Step 1 in a month and start 3rd year in 2 months.

Fight the odds... your story will matter at the interviews and in your personal statement (word it in such a way that they want to see more of you). And that story will matter to the patients, because it’ll make you a better doctor.

 

[star.buck]

...

Fair, but how do you access research as a student in my position? I am willing, I just don't know *how*. Any tips?

The other ECs I have ideas for, and a little bit of time to get that going. I'm at the beginning of my re-invention.

For research, I’d reach out to the docs at the schools who said they’d write a letter for you. See if they have any research projects or know of someone who does who would want a student to work with.

 

[curbsideconsult]

For research, I’d reach out to the docs at the schools who said they’d write a letter for you. See if they have any research projects or know of someone who does who would want a student to work with.

^^ Agreed.

You probably already know this but just in case you don't, I would also add that "research" doesn't necessarily mean working in a lab feeding the rats or pipetting for hours on end or waiting for some gels to run. Research can be epidemiological or literature research or clinical research. There are a lot of different ways to get into research that many people don't think about. The research also doesn't have to be medically related per se. You can do sociology research, psych, economics, etc. Be open to the opportunities that are available. I'm not saying you should pursue the non-medical options over the medical ones, but if you're not getting the medical ones for some reason, look into other fields.

 

[Bobsaget121]

If you are trying to stay in the SF Bay Area, which is why I am assuming that you are applying to Stanford and UCSF, apply to Touro University California in Vallejo as a backup. But if you want to stick with applying to MD only, include UC Davis on that list.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

So here is where I am now:

cGPA: 3.31
sGPA: 3.58
ORM

I have read Goro's post on starting over. I'm asking for specific help about entrance into specific universities. I have a plan B (and C and D).

I only have the math portion of my pre-reqs done. All the rest will be done DIY post-bacc style.

Poor cGPA from failing a couple of French classes (long story). I had a 3.68 in my major (math) so I do believe it is possible to get a 3.7+ on post-bacc science courses. I've run the numbers. A range of 3.7-4.0 on post-bacc courses (min req for med school) puts my cGPA at 3.42-3.51 and sGPA at 3.65-3.82.

I have not taken the MCAT or started studying (re: lack of pre-reqs). I am an excellent standardized test taker, so I am hoping that works in my favor.

Now the hard part. It isn't very realistic to move away from where we live. This unfortunately means I need to apply to UCSF and Stanford. The best fit for me is UCSF. I am obviously climbing an uphill battle right now. One other card I have to play is several attendings at UCSF and Stanford know and like me. Some have offered to write recommendation letters for this journey.

I have a couple of years to work with since I'm at the beginning of my "starting over" journey. I want to do them right.



So the questions:

Is the 3.7 recommended post-bacc GPA enough given my cGPA? Or should I realistically aim higher? I want to be realistic in both what I can do, and what is needed. I know those things may not match, but I can try. I can theoretically hit the average sGPAs of UCSF and Stanford, but not the cGPAs. My cGPA will always be lower than the sGPA. How much is this going to hurt me? Is one more heavily weighted than the other?

What is my minimum goal for the MCAT to still get into one of these schools? Besides obviously hitting or exceeding the averages of 516 for UCSF and 518 for Stanford, does anyone know their minimum cutoffs or their actual spread of scores? Knowing my minimum goal helps me prep for standardized tests, and I have gotten perfect scores on them before, so what I do works for me.

What other things should I be looking at doing to help my application? I am conversationally fluent in Spanish, so there exists some good possibilities there with community service if I get certified through the medical interpreter courses at my local cc. I have no work history as a stay-at-home mom for the last 10 years.

Do I absolutely need research experience? How can I do this as a non-matriculated student? Matriculation is not an option, they will not accept anyone for a second bachelors degrees and I don't have enough pre-reqs for a Master's program in chem or bio. I've tried the matriculation option already.

Is this even possible? What are my real chances here? Be tough with me, I can take it.

I hear some schools are inclined to accept "reinvented" students, and some are not, where do UCSF and Stanford fall on this spectrum?

All MD programs are looking for "good fit" which is nebulous enough that it probably depends more than anyone wants to admit on what kind of day your interviewer is having.

Applying to two schools is unwise, even if totally within reach stats wise.

Applying to two super-selective schools as an ORM nontraditional with a mar in the cGPA is disconnected from reality.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

If you are trying to stay in the SF Bay Area, which is why I am assuming that you are applying to Stanford and UCSF, apply to Touro University California in Vallejo as a backup. But if you want to stick with applying to MD only, include UC Davis on that list.

Tuoro is marginal. Better than their NYC cousin. But clearly marginal, and marginal DO in 30s or 40s is not a clear-cut choice.

 

[TheSecretMedMom]

For research, I’d reach out to the docs at the schools who said they’d write a letter for you. See if they have any research projects or know of someone who does who would want a student to work with.

Thank you! This is a great idea, and I already have a couple of ideas of who to call.

^^ Agreed.

You probably already know this but just in case you don't, I would also add that "research" doesn't necessarily mean working in a lab feeding the rats or pipetting for hours on end or waiting for some gels to run. Research can be epidemiological or literature research or clinical research. There are a lot of different ways to get into research that many people don't think about. The research also doesn't have to be medically related per se. You can do sociology research, psych, economics, etc. Be open to the opportunities that are available. I'm not saying you should pursue the non-medical options over the medical ones, but if you're not getting the medical ones for some reason, look into other fields.

This is a good reminder; it gives me a few more ideas. Thank you!

If you are trying to stay in the SF Bay Area, which is why I am assuming that you are applying to Stanford and UCSF, apply to Touro University California in Vallejo as a backup. But if you want to stick with applying to MD only, include UC Davis on that list.

I don't think a DO will be a good idea for my larger goals, it isn't fully off the table, but the more I read about programs and then residency matching - I'm not sure it will suit my goals. UC Davis is far enough from my house that we would have to move. If I am going to move - I'm leaving the state.

All MD programs are looking for "good fit" which is nebulous enough that it probably depends more than anyone wants to admit on what kind of day your interviewer is having.

Applying to two schools is unwise, even if totally within reach stats wise.

Applying to two super-selective schools as an ORM nontraditional with a mar in the cGPA is disconnected from reality.

I'm learning this more and more. When you finally decide to pull the trigger on going back to school after a decade for a huge dream, sometimes you miscalculate just how far behind you are. I always knew I was behind, I wasn't entirely naive. I was naive in just how far I was behind and in thinking it was remotely possible to build some sort of bridge over the gap. Probably not possible; ok, I can accept that. I'm still going to try and I'll still apply, because its my life and I'm stubborn like that, but I will add OOS MD programs too now. I'm working on a list near where we have extended family so we have some semblance of a support network.

Tuoro is marginal. Better than their NYC cousin. But clearly marginal, and marginal DO in 30s or 40s is not a clear-cut choice.

This is what I'm feeling, I want to be competitive for pediatric specialty residencies afterwords. If this school (or other DO schools) won't get me there, it is useless to apply.

 

[TheSecretMedMom]

I’m not familiar with California schools, just curious... is there a DO school nearby that would work for your needs? They do appreciate the nontraditionals and the “why” stories...

And just as a buffer to the story about the Asian woman with great stats who only got into 4/30 schools... I had mediocre stats, a CC for most of my prereqs, more compassionate with interactions than blatant-intelligence... I applied to only half a dozen or so Michigan and a few surrounding states... and was accepted into my preferred MD program (and withdrew from a good looking waitlist position at another). I have a great story too.

So many people told me I didn’t stand a chance, I should be a PA, or nurse, etc... I take Step 1 in a month and start 3rd year in 2 months.

Fight the odds... your story will matter at the interviews and in your personal statement (word it in such a way that they want to see more of you). And that story will matter to the patients, because it’ll make you a better doctor.

There is, see above, probably not a good fit.

Thank you for the little bit of encouragement. It is always wise to be honest about what the realities of your situation are, but sometimes hope is helpful. After all, don't we see in medicine over and over again that patients who have hope in the face of insurmountable odds fare better than those who give up? A tiny bit of hope, in the context of truthfulness, is always a good thing. You can have a terminal diagnosis, understand fully what the realities are, and live with a tiny bit of hope that you will see the next day, even if you know you probably won't. At least you would have lived your last day happy.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

Fair, but how do you access research as a student in my position? I am willing, I just don't know *how*. Any tips?

I am sorry, I wish I could help you in that department, but I can't because I am also very non-trad, with no research, but mucho clinical experience.

I suggest that you make a post in the pre-allopathic forum asking for advice on how to get research as a non-trad. That forum has more readers...

GL!!

 

[Skiiiiiing]

Thank you! This is a great idea, and I already have a couple of ideas of who to call.



This is a good reminder; it gives me a few more ideas. Thank you!



I don't think a DO will be a good idea for my larger goals, it isn't fully off the table, but the more I read about programs and then residency matching - I'm not sure it will suit my goals. UC Davis is far enough from my house that we would have to move. If I am going to move - I'm leaving the state.



I'm learning this more and more. When you finally decide to pull the trigger on going back to school after a decade for a huge dream, sometimes you miscalculate just how far behind you are. I always knew I was behind, I wasn't entirely naive. I was naive in just how far I was behind and in thinking it was remotely possible to build some sort of bridge over the gap. Probably not possible; ok, I can accept that. I'm still going to try and I'll still apply, because its my life and I'm stubborn like that, but I will add OOS MD programs too now. I'm working on a list near where we have extended family so we have some semblance of a support network.



This is what I'm feeling, I want to be competitive for pediatric specialty residencies afterwords. If this school (or other DO schools) won't get me there, it is useless to apply.

The better DO schools have programs and placements comparable to MD programs. The low-quality programs stream their lectures from other campuses and have few or no PhD faculty on site. As domestic graduates begin to exceed residencies, low-end DO will be first to have large numbers of graduates not placing.

DO is fine for peds generally. If you wanted a sub-specialty it might be problematic.

You probably have an outside shot at MD if you applied broadly. But I wouldn't spend the time prepping, getting letters, etc for just two programs.

 

[DBC03]

Just to chime in on the question of how much a good story helps you - it may help in some cases, but it depends on how well you write and what the story is and who reads your application (and what that person had to eat that morning and how bad traffic was on the way to work and how good family life is at home, etc.). Based on your description it sounds like I have a similarish story and you are welcome to PM me for details. It was brought up in interviews, but I don’t think that is what got me in to the interviews. Interestingly enough, they paired me with physicians who would understand my story a bit better and they ended up prying into it, so be ready to discuss at interviews. I should add that I am a fairly poor writer and my PS was not exactly compelling in the way that it was written. I also have similar stats, with an original 3.3 Undergraduate GPA and a 4.0 postbac (that never got that overall GPA above a 3.5), a lower sGPA (around 3.4), and high MCAT, which seemed to ease concerns over my ability to perform. Depending on how you do on the MCAT and what your ECs are like and whether you really catch the eye of someone at UCSF, you might have a chance there. Feel free to send your application in to Stanford, but expect to be rejected.

One thing you’ll hear on this board is that you can either aim to be a doctor or aim to live in a specific location, but it’s unusual and difficult to succeed at both. Some people manage it, but it’s more because of luck (often attributed to living in a lucky state) than ability.

To answer your specific questions, aim for a 4.0 in your postbac and a 528 on the MCAT. That sound ridiculous, but you need to knock this out of the park. If you fall short, you’re still doing well. Don’t give schools any reason to think you can’t perform (and that includes clearing up any questions about your aforementioned story). I definitely think becoming a medical interpreter would be fantastic - start that ASAP. Volunteering will be more important than research (unless you insist on Stanford, but given your current GPA that is unlikely to happen). If you can get in on some research, awesome. But focus on getting involved in volunteering now.

Your chances, if you insist on applying to only UCSF and Stanford are pretty low. Technically they are around 2%, but I think even lower given your metrics (mine are the same, so I had to be honest with myself as well) (and, yes, I was rejected from both schools). If you get some really amazing grades in a post-bac and then kill the MCAT, you’re still hovering at some low odds. If you apply to additional schools, you increase your odds a LOT. And you may be able to live somewhere with a super low COL (kidding, kidding ... kind of). As to your last question, UCSF is known to accept reinvented students - and they seem to have a small preference for Cali residents in this regard. Stanford couldn’t care less about reinvented students.

Not sure if this helps, but feel free to PM me as I just went through this over the past two years and matriculate soon. Becoming a doctor is totally doable for you. Becoming a doctor who graduates from UCSF might be doable depending on how the cards fall. Becoming a doctors from Stanford is less likely. If you are really determined, start looking into additional schools to increase you chances!


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile

 

[TheSecretMedMom]

The better DO schools have programs and placements comparable to MD programs. The low-quality programs stream their lectures from other campuses and have few or no PhD faculty on site. As domestic graduates begin to exceed residencies, low-end DO will be first to have large numbers of graduates not placing.

DO is fine for peds generally. If you wanted a sub-specialty it might be problematic.

You probably have an outside shot at MD if you applied broadly. But I wouldn't spend the time prepping, getting letters, etc for just two programs.

I'll have to go searching for the ranking lists of DO. I want to work in ped critical care, not general peds. I know enough to know not to limit myself to that singular focus yet, and have several other subspecialties I am also interested in, but ped critical care is where my dreams lie. I'm trying to think a couple of steps ahead, since NOT doing that in my undergraduate work was a terrible idea.

 

[TheSecretMedMom]

DCB03: Thank you for your input. It is good to see someone who was in a similar situation GPA and with a similar background story. I'm totally fine talking about my experience. It is why I am even trying now to go back, so I anticipate it will be talked about. I definitely will have my friend who is an editor at a major publisher look my personal statement over for me.

That clarifying info between UCSF and Stanford is really helpful. I really feel much more pulled to UCSF already. I know some about the cultures at both hospitals from experience, and I'd fit in better at UCSF. But I knew applying to just one school was even more idiotic than applying to only two.

The Low COL is definitely the one pro of moving. We could live off of the profits of the sale of our house for years in other states (we have done some renovation, and have more planned - so lots of sweat equity in there!), which would make med school life with kids much easier. My husband is actually willing to be a SAHDad if that were to happen which would be really helpful for the kids' transitions, and make me feel better about being gone from them so much. Or we could rent it out, and not make as much money, but keep trying to return home during residency, and fellowship, and attending positions... I can dream. Haha.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

I'll have to go searching for the ranking lists of DO. I want to work in ped critical care, not general peds. I know enough to know not to limit myself to that singular focus yet, and have several other subspecialties I am also interested in, but ped critical care is where my dreams lie. I'm trying to think a couple of steps ahead, since NOT doing that in my undergraduate work was a terrible idea.

Talk to peds critical care people. Probably need an MD if dead-set.

 

[Blanky]

You have to be willing to move.

 

[KnowledgeBot4000]

OP, you're asking really intelligent questions and IMO getting excellent advice and taking it very well. So props to you for that, knowing what you're getting into will make this whole experience easier.

The Low COL is definitely the one pro of moving. We could live off of the profits of the sale of our house for years in other states (we have done some renovation, and have more planned - so lots of sweat equity in there!), which would make med school life with kids much easier. My husband is actually willing to be a SAHDad if that were to happen which would be really helpful for the kids' transitions, and make me feel better about being gone from them so much. Or we could rent it out, and not make as much money, but keep trying to return home during residency, and fellowship, and attending positions... I can dream. Haha.

It's been years since I really looked at SDN for pre-med advice, but looking back at it now I think there are a few things SDN tends to underestimate as it's kind of an echo chamber here. Skiiiiiing already hit the nail on the head for how much luck and randomness there is (whether you get accepted may literally depend on the current mood of the person making the decision, or if they're hungry), but there are two other undermentioned points I think worth keeping in mind:

1) How much access to resources you have. I imagine this is because no one wants to come off as an elitist, but really if you are dead-set on MD and a competitive specialty, you're going to be way better off if you have access to lots of money than if you don't. Sounds like you may own a home in SF and maybe you and your husband (or your extended families) are pretty loaded. If that's the case, you may be able to spend 3 years doing full time pre-med stuff (full load of science classes, volunteering, research, maybe even a SMP, etc) all of which is very expensive. Hell, even just parking at some places in SF or Oakland to volunteer can run you $10+., not to mention bridge tolls. My point is this -- if having lots of money is an advantage you have, it increases your odds of being able to get into a MD school relative to a lot of non-trads who need to get into school within 2 years while simultaneously working part (or even full) time to support themselves and/or their families.

2) It's really hard (basically impossible) to predict what your potential MCAT score is. A lot more people plan to score really high on the MCAT than actually do. I don't think it's all that uncommon for a pre-med to start saying "I really want to get into a top medical school" then to 2-3 years later be applying and thinking "I really hope I get accepted to a DO school somewhere." Again, there's no way for anyone to know how well you'll score, and it's not a test you can take unlimited times because previous attempts will be held against you (i.e. it's better to get a 510 taking it once, then a 502 then a 510).

I say this because I know friends who were ecstatic to get into Touro Vallejo for a DO, even though I highly doubt when they started the pre-med journey that's what they had in mind. I know another friend who as a pre-med would explicitly talk about how there are some MD schools she'd never attend (due to the school's location), yet now after multiple MCAT attempts and multiple application cycles to MD and DO schools all across the country, she's still yet to receive an acceptance anywhere. And you might be surprised to find out how hard working and smart some of these people are, as the uninterested/lazy ones had likely dropped out well before even applying.

 

[TheSecretMedMom]

OP, you're asking really intelligent questions and IMO getting excellent advice and taking it very well. So props to you for that, knowing what you're getting into will make this whole experience easier.



It's been years since I really looked at SDN for pre-med advice, but looking back at it now I think there are a few things SDN tends to underestimate as it's kind of an echo chamber here. Skiiiiiing already hit the nail on the head for how much luck and randomness there is (whether you get accepted may literally depend on the current mood of the person making the decision, or if they're hungry), but there are two other undermentioned points I think worth keeping in mind:

1) How much access to resources you have. I imagine this is because no one wants to come off as an elitist, but really if you are dead-set on MD and a competitive specialty, you're going to be way better off if you have access to lots of money than if you don't. Sounds like you may own a home in SF and maybe you and your husband (or your extended families) are pretty loaded. If that's the case, you may be able to spend 3 years doing full time pre-med stuff (full load of science classes, volunteering, research, maybe even a SMP, etc) all of which is very expensive. Hell, even just parking at some places in SF or Oakland to volunteer can run you $10+., not to mention bridge tolls. My point is this -- if having lots of money is an advantage you have, it increases your odds of being able to get into a MD school relative to a lot of non-trads who need to get into school within 2 years while simultaneously working part (or even full) time to support themselves and/or their families.

2) It's really hard (basically impossible) to predict what your potential MCAT score is. A lot more people plan to score really high on the MCAT than actually do. I don't think it's all that uncommon for a pre-med to start saying "I really want to get into a top medical school" then to 2-3 years later be applying and thinking "I really hope I get accepted to a DO school somewhere." Again, there's no way for anyone to know how well you'll score, and it's not a test you can take unlimited times because previous attempts will be held against you (i.e. it's better to get a 510 taking it once, then a 502 then a 510).

I say this because I know friends who were ecstatic to get into Touro Vallejo for a DO, even though I highly doubt when they started the pre-med journey that's what they had in mind. I know another friend who as a pre-med would explicitly talk about how there are some MD schools she'd never attend (due to the school's location), yet now after multiple MCAT attempts and multiple application cycles to MD and DO schools all across the country, she's still yet to receive an acceptance anywhere. And you might be surprised to find out how hard working and smart some of these people are, as the uninterested/lazy ones had likely dropped out well before even applying.

First, thank you. I really did come here for a proper reality check because I didn't trust my family and friends to give it to me straight. So I try and take a minute to calm if any comment ruffles my feathers before responding, because I did literally ask for it. I have to know this stuff to make these HUGE life transitions as easy as possible for my family, particularly my kids. They don't get a choice in it, so I need to be aware of how this impacts them, and how I can minimize the negative side of the impact. (having a mom in med school isn't all negative I hope!)

We are actually not doing well by Bay Area middle class financial standards and couldn't afford to live in MOST of it, including SF, so I wouldn't say loaded. We are very careful with money and always have been, so we have achieved stability at least. But yes, we are much better off than most of the country, and we have better abilities to get private loans to help finance the post-bacc work than even some of our peers because we have been careful before. I do recognize my privilege there. The comment I made was more about the ridiculous housing price differences between the Bay Area and elsewhere, rather than a reflection of my own wealth.

I was commenting to a friend a week or so ago when I really started researching "chances" that honestly from some of the charts, there weren't many unqualified people applying but there still were only half the spots needed to give every qualified applicant an education. It was eye-opening to say the least. I think the outside perception really is that when med schools reject applicants it is because they are unqualified, and I now know that is the furthest thing from the truth. My goal isn't to be the best applicant, thinking the rest are lazy/unintelligent, but just to be one that doesn't get immediately discarded so I can have a chance. Right now, I am a terrible applicant. If I applied this cycle, my application would be trashed (as it probably should!) immediately. I'm trying to figure out what brings my application up to the place where it at least gets a read through and consideration. From there is luck and hopefully some good interview skills and then more luck. I can accept that.

I'm still thinking MD is my only choice for the specialties that interest me and draw me to want to practice medicine in the first place. If MD becomes unviable (like I strike out of a couple of rounds), I'll probably start trying to get into medical research, or I'll use my interpreter skills and focus on patient advocacy somehow, or maybe both. My reason for becoming a doctor is more nuanced than just wanting to be a doctor. I want to bring comfort to the hardest situations, the ones that seem hopeless. Not because I'm deriving any pleasure from being there, but because I know I can handle those situations emotionally and I can bring comfort. It is similar to how I would imagine firefighters feel. I don't think they like it when houses burn down, but they will still run inside and rescue anyone they can. If I can't do that on the front lines as a doctor, I will find some other way to bring comfort there. This is my goal, not being a doctor in and of itself (though I do LOVE the puzzles and fast-paced work of an ICU). Being a doctor is just how I get to those situations in what I believe will be the most impactful way. Being a general practitioner MD or DO isn't going to do that daily. These are a valid and worthy positions, but they don't fulfill my particular goal and desires. PICU nursing is also on that front line, and I have considered it HEAVILY (putting that out there before someone suggests it), but I know that I will have a hard time holding my tongue if I think a doctor is wrong. I will face too many ethical dilemmas that would crush my spirit. I've watched nurses wrestle with these ethics before with grace and respect, and more power to them. It is something I don't think *I* could do as well. It is still plan F or G though, somewhere way down on the list of backups.

Anyway, it seems like besides taking the pre-reqs (and getting As) so I can have a hope at getting even a mildly decent MCAT score, I also need to do the following:
1. Start planning on moving, because UCSF or Stanford are likely off the table.
2. Get my interpreter certification and start volunteering at clinics.
3. Shadow some physicians more formally.
4. Find someone willing to let me get in on some research.

I suspected before posting this was true, but I needed it confirmed so I can make appropriate plans. I've gotten some solid ideas on how to make each of those happen from this thread too.

The first is honestly still the most daunting, because a move for us is 100 times more complicated than packing a house, selling it, and moving. I've moved across country twice, once with kids, but never in my current situation. I know it is going to be much more complex than other moves. To move my life now will take 6-12 months of careful planning. I'm not exaggerating, hopefully it is clear in this thread that I am trying to be realistic. This is why I am wanting so badly to not move. It isn't "Oh I love it here. Life is wonderful here. I just don't want to leave. My friends are here." (which isn't untrue really), it isn't about unwillingness to move and live elsewhere, it is that moving is incredibly complex for my family. Just moving to a new house in the Bay Area would be a logistical nightmare. To move to another state means I have to pre-plan a bit for each location before I get close to the time when wait lists or acceptances are being doled out so that I have an action plan in place and we can execute it quickly if we got short notice, like if I don't get off the waitlist until the very end of the cycle or something. And given some very unique needs in our family, I have to cross reference the list of places I may qualify for with places my family can access resources they need before even applying. I can't just apply to a list based LizzyM and WARS, though they are amazing and incredibly helpful. It has to also match for my family. This will take months of research for each location, and everyone is talking about applying to 20-30 schools like you just apply. For me, I have to actually do research, and times 20 or 30... ya, not easy! It has taken years to get things set up in our own location already. Moving isn't just moving for us.

 

[TheSecretMedMom]

You have to be willing to move.

I'm willing to move. I have only said it isn't very realistic to move. Possible, yes, but also incredibly difficult for my family. See above.