what do you guys think?

[icalz]

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DOs are nice! I met one, he was very helpful in explaining to me the DO direction mentality, and I don't see why everyone is so irked about the differences. Tomato, tomahto.

And they speak so well 🙄

 

[mmmcdowe]

1) I like DO girls. They are attractive, intelligent, and they don't go to my school so I don't have to worry about politics. I wish the DO schools were closer to me.
2) I have no problem with any DO who doesn't shove their degree, their philosophy, what makes them more special than MDs, etc down my face. I have yet to meet one that has done so, thus I have no problem with DOs. Merit is what matters in the end.
3) I think that when people have a MD and a DO acceptance, there is a tendency to go with the MD because of "fit" or whatever excuse people want to make. The ugly truth is that a lot of medical folks do look at DOs as being the second choice to MDs. Lots of pre-meds think this way, and lots of doctors/residents/students think this way too (my own father thinks this way). It isn't openly discussed and people hum and hah about equality, but there are a lot of people who think this at least a little in the back of their heads, including some of the people who spout DO=MD. I won't lie, if I had to make a blind choice between a DO school and any MD acceptance I would go with the MD. Maybe after interviewing at DO schools I would have preferred them to a random MD school, but with all things being equally unknown I'd side with the MD school because of my own personal bias. I always judge someone based on what they do not where they school they are from (I mean, I went to a freaking party undergrad so it would be pretty crazy for me to be stuck up on things like titles and names), but the bottom line is there is still a perceived inequality between MD and DO schools when there aren't specific people being considered. Even when the score/gpa averages are equal, I wouldn't be surprised if that stigma held for some time. Does this end up translating to difficulty in the workforce or residency applications? Maybe some, but it surely is secondary to merit.

 

[Konfetkette]

Why don't you stop wondering about the differences and trying to please your parents and work on becoming a great doctor, whether you have an M next to a D or an O in your name.

 

[willen101383]

1) I like DO girls. They are attractive, intelligent, and they don't go to my school so I don't have to worry about politics. I wish the DO schools were closer to me.
2) I have no problem with any DO who doesn't shove their degree, their philosophy, what makes them more special than MDs, etc down my face. I have yet to meet one that has done so, thus I have no problem with DOs. Merit is what matters in the end.
3) I think that when people have a MD and a DO acceptance, there is a tendency to go with the MD because of "fit" or whatever excuse people want to make. The ugly truth is that a lot of medical folks do look at DOs as being the second choice to MDs. Lots of pre-meds think this way, and lots of doctors/residents/students think this way too (my own father thinks this way). It isn't openly discussed and people hum and hah about equality, but there are a lot of people who think this at least a little in the back of their heads, including some of the people who spout DO=MD. I won't lie, if I had to make a blind choice between a DO school and any MD acceptance I would go with the MD. Maybe after interviewing at DO schools I would have preferred them to a random MD school, but with all things being equally unknown I'd side with the MD school because of my own personal bias. I always judge someone based on what they do not where they school they are from (I mean, I went to a freaking party undergrad so it would be pretty crazy for me to be stuck up on things like titles and names), but the bottom line is there is still a perceived inequality between MD and DO schools when there aren't specific people being considered. Even when the score/gpa averages are equal, I wouldn't be surprised if that stigma held for some time. Does this end up translating to difficulty in the workforce or residency applications? Maybe some, but it surely is secondary to merit.

I am going DO...and I had a choice to go MD but didnt because of location constraints..but thanks for your post. It was pretty spot on! Mentioned the reality of the situation without sounding like a troll!

 

[Ativanigans]

Very blunt aren't you?

I dont think I said anything that was false. I would be interested to see the avg MCAT/GPA of a DO applicant and the avg MCAT/GPA of a DO applicant

 

[Limvostov]

I dont think I said anything that was false. I would be interested to see the avg MCAT/GPA of a DO applicant and the avg MCAT/GPA of a DO applicant

I would hope they would be equal...otherwise I don't want to send my children to your undergrad institution.

Besides...MCAT/GPA doesn't always equate ability. I've met a lot of inept egg heads and a lot of bright "Jack of all trades" types with B+ average GPA's.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I would hope they would be equal...otherwise I don't want to send my children to your undergrad institution.

Besides...MCAT/GPA doesn't always equate ability. I've met a lot of inept egg heads and a lot of bright "Jack of all trades" types with B+ average GPA's.

No one doubts that you can't perfectly correlate MCAT/GPA to ability, but to be fair there are probably more medically able eggheads than jack of all trades.

 

[Daedra22]

No one doubts that you can't perfectly correlate MCAT/GPA to ability, but to be fair there are probably more medically able eggheads than jack of all trades.

Matter of opinion, perhaps... While extreme intelligence in one area can be advantageous (and by no means am I talking down people with 4.0's), at the same time a student with a variety of experiences and skills can contribute to the medical profession in unique ways. Interpersonal skills, hard work and creativity can frequently make for a great doctor, at least in my experience.

As for the topic of this thread, if accepted to the school I'm going to next fall (DO) and one of the lower-tier MD schools I applied to, I would have a tough decision. I've met a number of people who don't know what a DO is, so it is an obstacle to overcome. At the same time, I think that the school I've chosen is a near-perfect "fit" for me... I've always gone for what makes me happy over what might be conventional, so against most MD schools I would likely stick with my choice. Of course, you were asking MD students and I am not, so feel free to disregard. ^.^

 

[LoveMyRam]

lol man you're not in an interview...It's ok to speak truthfully...

LOL sorry, im just passionate I guess

Its really not a WTF moment. OMM can be used pre-op and post-op to speed recovery times. Research is ongoing but several surgeons and residents have backed these claims.

E to the XACTLY!

I'm not saying that OMM doesn't have its benefits, but the implication of the statement I quoted was that MDs were somehow deficient as doctors because they weren't privy to mandatory OMM training, hence the .

you're right, I put it in a wrong way... I meant to say that among the strengths of both degree's, the DO has this additional strength... You are also right that very very rarely does a DO surgeon use OMM, thats why if you pay close attention to my post, I said, if the DO TRULY TRIES, they can have that additional component to their surgical skills.

What about giving advice about how the patient can modify their lifestyle to speed recovery or help avoid additional surgeries in the future?

Also, could someone explain the difference between OMM and Physical therapy?

Advice is gonna come based on clinical experience, I dont think it has anything to do with the degree, so you're argument isnt really legit..

OMM I believe stands for osteopathic manipulation methods.. it's kind of like physical therapy but si given by the DO as a form of treatment or remedy to a pain. I think that OMM is more of something to do in addition to giving drugs or other forms of treatment. PT on the other hand is for rehabilitating an injured body part or muscle, and is recommended as more of the main course of treatment...please correct if im wrong


Like someone said before, what's important whether MD or DO, is to be a doctor that treats patients to the best of his ability... SERVE THE LORD TIRELESSLY!

 

[Daedra22]

SERVE THE LORD TIRELESSLY!

Must we go there? Really?

 

[LoveMyRam]

Must we go there? Really?

gotta give my respects homeslice

 

[ijn]

gotta give my respects homeslice

No.

 

[adele87]

DO students also have a lower passing cut-off (70% instead of 75%), which does cause some grumbling.

though one instance cannot be used to make generalizations about the rigor of DO vs. MD programs, this is troublesome to read.

 

[willen101383]

though one instance cannot be used to make generalizations about the rigor of DO vs. MD programs, this is troublesome to read.

Yeah that is bull.

 

[greatnt249]

you're right, I put it in a wrong way... I meant to say that among the strengths of both degree's, the DO has this additional strength... You are also right that very very rarely does a DO surgeon use OMM, thats why if you pay close attention to my post, I said, if the DO TRULY TRIES, they can have that additional component to their surgical skills.

An MD can learn OMM if he/she truly wants to as well; rendering the one-up case for DO training moot.

 

[greatnt249]

gotta give my respects homeslice

Respecting one's "homeslice" is one thing; telling others to do the same is another.

 

[Siggy]

The real difference is that DOs can't use PAs...

/sarcasm since this thread is gonna get locked.

 

[eklip53]

though one instance cannot be used to make generalizations about the rigor of DO vs. MD programs, this is troublesome to read.

I have always seen schools with a 70% cutoff, never a 75%... I know that PCOM (where I will be attending) is 70%. I wonder if this MD program could have raised their minimum passing grade after the DO program was established in order to maintain a distinction between the schools.

Not trying to be a conspiracy theorist... just a thought.

 

[LoveMyRam]

An MD can learn OMM if he/she truly wants to as well; rendering the one-up case for DO training moot.

K pumpkin, lets get in touch with the real world where people learn stuff when they are forced to learn it.... and as said before 4 years of it is probably gonna do much more than the small amount of time that a resident/attending has in their schedule to learn OMM

 

[greatnt249]

K pumpkin, lets get in touch with the real world where people learn stuff when they are forced to learn it.... and as said before 4 years of it is probably gonna do much more than the small amount of time that a resident/attending has in their schedule to learn OMM

How about knocking off the pseudobad*ss, Dr. Cox-wannabe, premed-preaching-up-the-ladder attitude sometime soon...mmk?🙄

You wanna talk about the real world? In the real world, most DOs don't use OMM in practice. Remember that before you deride me for my hypothetical statements.

 

[sustentacular]

Advice is gonna come based on clinical experience, I dont think it has anything to do with the degree, so you're argument isnt really legit..

You're right, it comes from clinical experience which both DOs and MDs have. And I wasn't trying to argue, I was merely pointing out what you obviously overlooked given your blanket statement that MD surgeons "can not help a patient beyond surgery and medications."

As for the difference between OMM and PT, I was hoping a DO student could chime in. Is OMM used as preventative medicine at all? Like getting regular manipulations can help patients avoid X, Y or Z?

 

[sustentacular]

I'm going to try to seriously answer the OP's question, as I do not think they were looking to start a DO vs MD debate.

As someone who goes to a university where there is both an MD and a DO school, I can tell you that there is sometimes hostility between the two. Some of my MD classmates are contemptuous of the DO students, and some of the DO students are overly defensive and rude to the MD students. Most of the students of either flavor are just cool people trying to get through medical school.

Ours is an unusual environment in that we take our basic science classes together. However, there is still some thought that the DO students have an easier schedule since they start two months before we do and take anatomy over the summer while the MD students take it with the basic science classes in the fall. DO students also have a lower passing cut-off (70% instead of 75%), which does cause some grumbling.

Are you at MSU, or is there another school that offers MD and DO?

 

[DRMRL]

The funny thing about all this is that given the choice....MOST (NOT all) people would choose M.D. over D.O. why? Well, it's prestige. Sadly, that is the main driving factor. People do NOT want to admit it, but that is why. I've heard many M.D.s tell me the exact same thing on a one-on-one conversation. It's just the nature of the best. BUT I am not saying D.O. is incapable, I'm just explaining what I've experienced. To me, it's all the same da** thing. 😎

 

[DRMRL]

beast**

 

[Eyti]

.

 

[willen101383]

The funny thing about all this is that given the choice....MOST (NOT all) people would choose M.D. over D.O. why? Well, it's prestige. Sadly, that is the main driving factor. People do NOT want to admit it, but that is why. I've heard many M.D.s tell me the exact same thing on a one-on-one conversation. It's just the nature of the best. BUT I am not saying D.O. is incapable, I'm just explaining what I've experienced. To me, it's all the same da** thing. 😎

Yup....except me. I was accepted to BOTH....and chose DO...because the program was better in my opinion. I am also confident enough in my life accomplishments that I could care less what others think of the letters after my name...let alone pre meds who are still in college. You know what? I have heard MDs say this as well. I have also heard many MDs say "dont go into medicine." Does this sway my opinion of where I am obtaining my medical education? No it doesnt. Because I am old enough to make my own decisions in life without having to consult SDN or my parents for every little thing. It is hilarious how many people on this forum like to say things like "im not in medicine for the money/prestige," yet those same people are spreading around a bunch of BS about DO schools and their students in later posts. If you were really old/mature enough to make your own decisions absent what others think of you..you would be posting about how DO=MD in almost ALL cases, and in every hospital I have ever worked in. You would want to spread the word that MDs and DOs work alongside one another, caring for the same patients, doing the same job. The medical field is in such turmoil right now that the last thing anyone needs is doctors opposing one another on the basis of where they trained. So sick of these comments.

 

[amine2086]

Hello

I was just wondering what MD students thought of people who say they go to med school at COM schools...do they look down upon DO's at all since some consider it "easier" to get into? I just want to hear the honest opinion of some MD's about what they think of DO pursuing students.

Rather than trying to figure out what MD students think about DO students, I think you should think more about how DO fits with your career goal. If you are considering primary care, I think DO is a great option. I feel like a lot of students apply to DO schools because their stats are not as competitive for M.D. schools. Some also apply to DO as a backup option. But then there are others who just love the DO philosophy. Try to find out why is that you would like to go to DO school over MD and go from there.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Yup....except me. I was accepted to BOTH....and chose DO...because the program was better in my opinion. I am also confident enough in my life accomplishments that I could care less what others think of the letters after my name...let alone pre meds who are still in college. You know what? I have heard MDs say this as well. I have also heard many MDs say "dont go into medicine." Does this sway my opinion of where I am obtaining my medical education? No it doesnt. Because I am old enough to make my own decisions in life without having to consult SDN or my parents for every little thing. It is hilarious how many people on this forum like to say things like "im not in medicine for the money/prestige," yet those same people are spreading around a bunch of BS about DO schools and their students in later posts. If you were really old/mature enough to make your own decisions absent what others think of you..you would be posting about how DO=MD in almost ALL cases, and in every hospital I have ever worked in. You would want to spread the word that MDs and DOs work alongside one another, caring for the same patients, doing the same job. The medical field is in such turmoil right now that the last thing anyone needs is doctors opposing one another on the basis of where they trained. So sick of these comments.

I think the point of the post was not to say that MD>DO but that there is a perception, be it in the applicant or in general, that MD>DO if only because of the letters..

 

[willen101383]

Well let's look at where you're going 😛.

Haha this is true.

 

[willen101383]

I think the point of the post was not to say that MD>DO but that there is a perception, be it in the applicant or in general, that MD>DO if only because of the letters..

Yeah....I am just sick of hearing about all of this. I have been "around the block" of healthcare to a shockingly larger degree than most premed types on this site and I have never seen DOs getting discriminated against anywhere. So this rampant idea that DOs arent going to be just as successful as their MD counterparts is idiotic. Sure MD is better than DO if you are an insecure premed with limited clinical experience, and only rely on other SDN posters for your information regarding the reality of the situation. This gets tossed around a lot...but its like DMD vs DDS....or a DVM vs VMD. Nobody cares except premeds and a select few pompous MDs.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Yeah....I am just sick of hearing about all of this. I have been "around the block" of healthcare to a shockingly larger degree than most premed types on this site and I have never seen DOs getting discriminated against anywhere. So this rampant idea that DOs arent going to be just as successful as their MD counterparts is idiotic. Sure MD is better than DO if you are an insecure premed with limited clinical experience, and only rely on other SDN posters for your information regarding the reality of the situation. This gets tossed around a lot...but its like DMD vs DDS....or a DVM vs VMD. Nobody cares except premeds and a select few pompous MDs.

you know this how?

 

[Mace1370]

Yeah....I am just sick of hearing about all of this. I have been "around the block" of healthcare to a shockingly larger degree than most premed types on this site and I have never seen DOs getting discriminated against anywhere. So this rampant idea that DOs arent going to be just as successful as their MD counterparts is idiotic. Sure MD is better than DO if you are an insecure premed with limited clinical experience, and only rely on other SDN posters for your information regarding the reality of the situation. This gets tossed around a lot...but its like DMD vs DDS....or a DVM vs VMD. Nobody cares except premeds and a select few pompous MDs.

Clearly your anecdotal evidence is proof that the poor treatment of DOs relative to MDs doesn't happen in the world at large 🙄.

I hate to break it to you, but it does happen. It's not fair as there really isn't a significant difference between the two, but such is life. People who tell you otherwise are only trying to assuage their own insecurities.

 

[Daedra22]

Clearly your anecdotal evidence is proof that the poor treatment of DOs relative to MDs doesn't happen in the world at large 🙄.

I hate to break it to you, but it does happen. It's not fair as there really isn't a significant difference between the two, but such is life. People who tell you otherwise are only trying to assuage their own insecurities.

I've only seen the discrimination in uneducated people so far. One woman I spoke to was convinced that DO's went to 2 year schools and didn't complete residencies (seriously, wtf?). The others just didn't know what a DO was... and assumed they were just "bone doctors." My family is an example of this.

 

[daisy44]

Yeah....I am just sick of hearing about all of this. I have been "around the block" of healthcare to a shockingly larger degree than most premed types on this site and I have never seen DOs getting discriminated against anywhere. So this rampant idea that DOs arent going to be just as successful as their MD counterparts is idiotic. Sure MD is better than DO if you are an insecure premed with limited clinical experience, and only rely on other SDN posters for your information regarding the reality of the situation. This gets tossed around a lot...but its like DMD vs DDS....or a DVM vs VMD. Nobody cares except premeds and a select few pompous MDs.

I find this overly defensive attitude from DOs a little off-putting...

 

[RogueUnicorn]

what about residency directors?

 

[JaggerPlate]

This is probably the most mature discussion I have seen concerning this issue on SDN! Quite cool. Let's keep it civil!!!

 

[Dissected]

Otherwise, their knowledge base is perfectly equivalent to MD's in my experience, with extensive knowledge in homeopathy which is a subject my university program doesn't have.

 

[willen101383]

you know this how?

To be fair I will say this was overly presumptuous for me to say. However, judging from the posts I have read on SDN it is my opinion that I have much more clinical experience than most SDN premeds. I have been out of undergrad for 9 years and working consistently in my field since then.

 

[willen101383]

I find this overly defensive attitude from DOs a little off-putting...

Why is that? If you constantly read threads on this forum trash talking a career choice you have made, you wouldnt feel it prudent to get a little pissed off from time to time at the naivete of certain individuals?

 

[willen101383]

Clearly your anecdotal evidence is proof that the poor treatment of DOs relative to MDs doesn't happen in the world at large 🙄.

I hate to break it to you, but it does happen. It's not fair as there really isn't a significant difference between the two, but such is life. People who tell you otherwise are only trying to assuage their own insecurities.

Am I trying to conduct a formal study? Absolutely not. There is no way to objectively prove whether any of this exists. Am I trying to prove anything to you? No I am not. Roll your eyes at my comments all you want. After all you are a MD student, and your opinions must be worth more than mine. My decade of healthcare experience is meaningless. You can think what you want to think, and I can post what I have experienced in my professional capacity in healthcare. I personally have not seen DOs being treated as second class physicians in the least bit. Assuage my own insecurities? I was accepted to both programs but CHOSE DO, due to the reputation of the school I am attending, personal reasons, and because I felt the school fit me more than the MD school did.

In closing...does bias against DOs exist? Who knows..maybe somewhere. I have never seen it. Sure you have tough guy MDs talking negatively about DOs from time to time...but does that change the fact that DOs are successful? Absolutely not. Bias exists everywhere. Are there parts of the south that are likely biased against African American physicians? Possibly. I am Jewish, is it possible I would experience negative bias based on that? Of course.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Why is that? If you constantly read threads on this forum trash talking a career choice you have made, you wouldnt feel it prudent to get a little pissed off from time to time at the naivete of certain individuals?

this really doesn't happen all to often and such behavior is not tolerated by the mods. don't get overly defensive.

 

[willen101383]

this really doesn't happen all to often and such behavior is not tolerated by the mods. don't get overly defensive.

I dont mean overtly trash talking. Seeing countless threads about whether DOs can have PAs...or how DOs are glorified PAs...or how such a bias exists that anyone would be a ***** to go to a osteopathic medical school..gets to you after a while. I realize premeds are incredibly competitive. That doesnt give you the carte blanche ability to speak negatively/spread false information about peoples life choices on SDN. That being said, the tone regarding DOs has gotten much better on SDN since I first started perusing this site. Doesnt change the fact that a few spoil things for the whole bunch.

 

[Dissected]

In closing...does bias against DOs exist? Who knows..maybe somewhere. I have never seen it. Sure you have tough guy MDs talking negatively about DOs from time to time...but does that change the fact that DOs are successful? Absolutely not. Bias exists everywhere. Are there parts of the south that are likely biased against African American physicians? Possibly. I am Jewish, is it possible I would experience negative bias based on that? Of course.

wowwwww there. new can of worms, successfully opened.

 

[jhamaican]

Unfortunately, many of the doctors I have shadowed with say there is much discrimination against DO as well as URM because many feel as though they did not earn their way. This problem is quite real and alive today. In fact, I was told that DO and URM who earn a competitive residency spot usually have to work even harder than others to prove themselves. This is all second hand though, but still interesting to me at least.

 

[cubssox2000]

Not to fuel any fire, but I observed that a lot of people when defending DO against the inevitable bashers, there is some tendency to say something along the lines of DO > MD

Thats because no one wants to start a flame war or be called politically incorrect. Look through the forums and you will find over and over and over again that most people say MD > DO.

 

[willen101383]

Unfortunately, many of the doctors I have shadowed with say there is much discrimination against DO as well as URM because many feel as though they did not earn their way. This problem is quite real and alive today. In fact, I was told that DO and URM who earn a competitive residency spot usually have to work even harder than others to prove themselves. This is all second hand though, but still interesting to me at least.

I guess I better get used to working as a FP in urgent care....afterall..like I said before my decade of work in the field, and masters degree means nothing..along with my good stats....because I didnt "earn my way" by deciding to go to an MD school. If people think going to a DO school is going to be a detrement to their success as a physician....then go to an MD school! Nobody who goes DO is going to care. We are too busy worrying about learning to be the best docs we can be....just like most MD students who are too busy to care about MD vs DO. But again, dont be here on SDN spreading misinformation.

 

[jvelos3]

.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Look, your opinion is certainly valuable, but saying you know that there isn't any DO discrimination because you didn't see it while on the job just means that people are professional in the workplace. Have you sat in during the discussions of hiring a doctor or placing a resident? That's where the discrimination people fear might occur. I haven't sat in one either, to be fair, but I'm just saying that you are overstepping your bounds by insisting your years of experience makes you an authority on this problem.

 

[Eyti]

Haha, it doesn't really matter to me what you're happy or unhappy with -- you're stuck filling Eppendorfs and really have nothing to do with allopathic medical education (i.e. this forum). I guess I should have been more explicit though. My point was that there's a different meaning (to me) when someone says they got into an allopathic school vs an osteopathic school. However, since there's no difference in education (theoretically), it doesn't really make a difference when someone identifies themselves as an osteopathic student vs allopathic.

You confuse me slightly. At more than one time you seem to come off as a bit snooty and yet there still is a logic to it. What exactly is that "different meaning (to me)"? Edit: Never mind I am going to stay away from listening to the argument.

Is it fundamentally a difference between those who think of it as a competition versus those who see it as a mutual trek?

 

[spyderefs]

Thats because no one wants to start a flame war or be called politically incorrect. Look through the forums and you will find over and over and over again that most people say MD > DO.

I know, I just find it a little ironic that many who defend against the wrongly perceived inequality of MD>DO, later conclude with another inequality of DO>MD.

I agree that MD practically equals DO. But I mean I'm looking at both the pre-med boards, and there's still a lot of people who justify themselves going into a DO school by essentially saying its better than an MD school. I can see where they're coming from if they're personally inclined to attend a certain school (DO or MD) for whatever reason, but blanket statements like "bring a patient relief beyond what an MD can do" contributes to this inequality nonsense