What do you log as work hours?

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I never used the phrase "lesser specialty". I think that reflects a sensitivity some of you guys are carrying. I expressed it in terms of a different specialty and hierarchy. And yes, in some places it matters and the title one carries in another specialty just doesn't matter as much as the two of you guys seem to think or want.

Whatever. Obviously your hospitals do it differently and let's leave it at that.
actually you have...many times...that some specialties have more clout and so forth...but ultimately in a lawsuit, the other side is not going to care if the hospital views or supports one specialty over the other....the mistakes made by the hospitalist will be seen as the same as the mistakes of Neuro surg or CT surg or ortho...and if the hospitaistl lets another service make decisions for him, he still has the ultimate responsibility (though i can see him easily throwing the other specialty under the bus).

and my solution is again, i will be more than happy to let that team take the patient onto their service if they feel that they are better able to care for the pt...amazing how many times that alone is enough to have them back off...
 
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Um residents are licensed, in most cases after their first year. No trainee licenses.

Someone with more years of training and has logged more years in the hospital simply knows more. The only arrogance I'm hearing is the person with two years less experience who thinks their title in and of itself makes them know better..
that is not the case in many places...for example in NY and NJ, residents are all under training licenses and many states will require at least 2 years of PGY training to even get an unrestricted license...and even fellowships don't necessarily require unrestricted licenses...

and please! just because a person is a PGY 10 doesn't make them the most knowledgable person...even among the PGY 10s one will have more knowledge and expertise than the others...and if that WERE the case, then those NS and ortho residents should be able to care of the medical issues better than the PGY 2 and 3s that run the IM services...but that isn't the case is it?
 
There's always a bigger fish. At some hospitals certain entire services are guppies.

I never used the phrase "lesser specialty."

You didn't use that exact specific phrase, you're right. My mistake in interpretation I guess.

If there's one thing I'm taking from this discussion it's a realization that this guppies/big fish dynamic is something I should look into if I end up switching jobs!!
 
You'd be surprised. As mentioned, this "attending" did not last long there.
If I was in a malignant environment like that, I wouldn't "last long" either. I'd quit and go to one of the 10 other places that email me looking for a hospitalist every week.
 
...and if that WERE the case, then those NS and ortho residents should be able to care of the medical issues better than the PGY 2 and 3s that run the IM services...but that isn't the case is it?

I am going to defer to Tired and his ilk on this one but I suspect many ortho (and NS) residents feel quite competent caring for patients on their services who also have medical issues.
 
Lot of bunched up panties in this thread.

I don't really see what's so hard to understand: IM "attending" covering (what sounds like) a surgical patient disagrees/tries to change the plan, [surgical] resident prevents the attending from messing up the plan, and the IM attending tries to "pull rank."

Now you could argue that the surgical service should be covering their own patients anyway, but that doesn't excuse a less experienced clinician trying to wear the big boy pants.
 
I am going to defer to Tired and his ilk on this one but I suspect many ortho (and NS) residents feel quite competent caring for patients on their services who also have medical issues.
you are not serious are you?
i don't know what hospital you are at, but is is a unicorn...a place where residents are held to the same level as attendings AND surgical subs actually manage the medical issues of their patients????!!!

PLEASE.....everyone who has ever been a hospitalist (or heck! an IM resident) knows that anyone with HTN, Diabetes, or CAD are going to be admitted to medicine with a NS or Ortho consult (and then they say that there is no need for surgical intervention at this time...even though THEY are the ones that told the ED that the pt needs to be admitted to medicine) and they will focus only on their narrow area of expertise...
 
Lot of bunched up panties in this thread.

I don't really see what's so hard to understand: IM "attending" covering (what sounds like) a surgical patient disagrees/tries to change the plan, [surgical] resident prevents the attending from messing up the plan, and the IM attending tries to "pull rank."

Now you could argue that the surgical service should be covering their own patients anyway, but that doesn't excuse a less experienced clinician trying to wear the big boy pants.
the quotations are unnecessary...no matter how many years out, if the person is the physician of record, he is the attending...whether he is a good one or not is up for debate, but whether he is the one that takes responsibility of the patient's care and the resident, whether he be a pgy 1 or 10, is still just that...a resident...not a full physician but one in training...

and again, my experience has been that the further up in training in a subspecialty, they are very experienced in their subspecialty, but less so in general medicine.


and i've worn both hats...as the primary and as a consult...and i'm just as happy to sign off if the hospitalist continues to disregard my recommendations or wants to go in a pathway that is contrary to my recs...if i truly think that the primary attending's management endangers a pt, then i'll speak with the attending's director...(generally though if its a crazy enough endo issue, most services are nervous enough about it that they do as i've recommended and most surgical services are happy not to have to manage the diabetes).
 
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Do you really think surgical residents complain about medicine for fun? You have to realize that for every story you have, I have one too.

And yes, I can manage diabetes, stable CAD, and HTN. The question is, when I'm only out of the OR for 30min at a time 2-3 times a day, should I be?

there's the difference....IM residents just usually shake their heads in disbelief at surgical residents...

and I've seen the aftermath of those that think they can manage those things...no it is better that you leave that to those that can...but you can't have it both ways...if you are not the primary, then you have to acquiesce to those who are when it come to things that are not of your expertise...
 
I have been a number of places where this is not the case, where I get told that 80yo ladies on a dozen pills a day are "medically stable" and should be admitted to the ortho service. "Just continue their home meds and we'll make some recs tomorrow." Do you really think surgical residents complain about medicine for fun? You have to realize that for every story you have, I have one too.

And yes, I can manage diabetes, stable CAD, and HTN. The question is, when I'm only out of the OR for 30min at a time 2-3 times a day, should I be?

I live in a slightly different world in Peds, but I have stories too. Our Ortho dept doesn't have residents and they admit to their own service most of the time-- the only time I haven't seen it is when the kid is genuinely medically complicated (even for a Peds resident), and other things need to be managed a bit more closely than by an Ortho attending who swings by maybe twice per day.

Our ENT dept, however, does have residents (they even teach us once a year), and yet very, very rarely admit to their own service. There was a kid with no comorbidities who had mastoiditis. She was hospitalized purely for I&D and IV antibiotics, but the ENT service refused to take her. So, the Hospitalist team got to manage her and try to deal with the opinions of ENT and ID on how to manage her.

The whole concept of the "primary" team is, I think, largely a medical myth. I hear this everywhere. I ignore it everywhere. If I'm putting on a cast or splint, or I want a followup CRP, or I need xrays, they're just getting done. I don't need or want permission from some medicine resident or even some hotshot attending hospitalist. It's just getting done.

As a general rule, I don't write meds on medicine patients other than postop antibiotics. Beyond that, I do what's right for people within my scope of practice. Whether other services like it or not is irrelevant to me.

The concept of a primary team is probably more important when there are less definitive roles, as is the case in complex medical patients with multiple sub specialties involved. I took care of a patient with a puzzling clinical picture and at one point, I was the intern trying to coordinate the thoughts and opinions of over 10 attendings from different services and communicate plans to the family. When one specialty comes in and says something like 'we need a follow up MRI tomorrow', and the next is pushing for surgery, and no one actually knows what's going on, it's in the best interest of the patient to have one team (a primary team) handling all the communication to the family.

When I was the senior on Heme/Onc, we had a patient with hemophilia come in with a surgical problem, but no one was sure which team should do most of the management, so I had a difficult time communicating with the nurses who to call with concerns. Post op bleeding is a surgical issue, but in a hemophilia patient, medical management is critical. Given that I don't take care of a lot of post op kids, I'm not sure how much pain is normal and when I should be looking for something else. Not sure how much this affected actual patient care, but that the patient was discharged and readmitted within 24 hours due to continued vomiting that turned out to be an occult bleed.
 
Power struggles should melt into nothing in the face of the safest thing for the patient. And if someone knows the patient and has been working with him, and his plan is soundly based in best practices, what the hell is the problem?

This is one of the most annoying issues in HC: Ego issues. Sickening.
 
The only gray area I have is what to do with the hours where I went home and then catch up on progress notes from there.

Like, especially intern year, it wasn't unusual for me to finish a workday, go home, have dinner, watch some TV, then spend a couple hours to wrap up clinic notes or discharge summaries or whatever. If I were to log those as one continuous shift, which a strict reading of the rules might suggest, I was breaking duty hours pretty much every day I did that. I just ended up logging the hours I was physically in the hospital.

Back to OP's topic and work hours

my program wouldn't go for your above scenario because if they are audited
(yes, let's remember the ACGME can audit the program, and yes, let's think about how they would go about doing that: hint the EHR is hard data on first note/order of day and last note/order of day, and timing of pages can be tracked too, and when ACGME actually gets involved it is because they are beyond the point of taking anyone's word for what hours are)
and the EHR shows that you started notes at 6:00 am and signed your last d/c summary at 10:00 pm, there is really no way to prove you're at home eating pizza for a few hours in between, and if those are the hours putting you over....

Depends on the rules, at my program you could go home and eat that pizza and work on those d/c summaries but by God you better both:
appear to be making hours on paper
appear to be making hours with scrutiny of your EHR & pager sign out

The first paragraph was explicitly explained to me by my program so that's an n=1 not just my speculation
The second part was what the Chief told me off record

I actually do recommend lying about your work hours unless you're going to be caught, you're reaching dangerous levels of fatigue, or it is a systemic issue in which case it needs to be addressed for the benefit of all the patients and residents in the program. Except for yours and patient safety I feel comfortable recommending that because getting your program or your ass canned before attending never helped anyone including the hordes of patients needing to be seen with the looming doctor shortage, barring patient safety issues which I see as the only reason for said canning. The best thing you'll ever do for society is get to attending unless of course patient safety is at stake. So call it the ethics of lesser evils.

You have to ask yourself, are you violating work hours and so is everyone else (and even if there are, are you going to be the squeaky wheel? is this the only weakness of yours or are you adding to a list?), was it bad luck (a few mistimed codes that you can point to when your PD hauls you in for work hour violations), or is it just you? If it's just you I suggest before anyone catches on to your work hour problems that you proactively try to get as fast as your peers (remember the mantra tho of safe fast pleasant in that order)

TLDR:
I time my hours by what others are going to be able to see in the EHR & pager
Work hour violation and discrepancy between logged and hard data are a good way to 1) royally piss off the PD 2) provide ammo for termination for being slow and a liar (OK that's dramatic but going over work hours and having logged hours that do not match EHR under scrutiny will not do anything good for you 99% of the time)
Fake it until you make it (work hours)
safe FAST pleasant in that order
 
Don't wanna be over work hours.
Ortho right? I've found Ortho and NSG at my hospital are most likely to do this, followed by Gen Surg residents.

Hahaha. Yup. This is exactly what I do. 0500-1700 Mon thru Fri. Every weekend off. Ever since I've started this process, I've always worked 80 hours a week...and then volunteered the rest...
 
I do the same. 7am-5pm every day, every week, every month. Makes my life easier 😛
 
As a PGy-10 resident who got lectured today by a first-year ED attending (and yes I kept my temper) this thread makes me sad

I'm sorry for being for being ignorant, but how can you be a PGY-10? Even NSG is 7 years, Ortho 5 or 6, Rads maybe 6-7. But 10? Sorry.
 
But to answer your question in all seriousness, 6 years surgical residency, 3 years specialty fellowship, 1 year super-specialty fellowship. If you keep signing up for stuff they let you keep going....

Wow. Can I ask what specialty? I assumed it was some surgical thing but wow. Not putting you down at all, hope it does not come off that way was just a little shocked. Out of curiosity though, how are you able to do so much training and put through so much/give up so much? I hope you do well financially because that's a lot of training!
 
Wow. Can I ask what specialty? I assumed it was some surgical thing but wow. Not putting you down at all, hope it does not come off that way was just a little shocked. Out of curiosity though, how are you able to do so much training and put through so much/give up so much? I hope you do well financially because that's a lot of training!
Plastics with a specialty in craniofacial surgery. In terms of finances, I definitely am behind my med school classmates in that I live in a 1-bedroom rented apartment, I bought a cheap used car, I do a lot of my clothes shopping at Target, etc. That being said, it's not like I'm starving, and I can maintain the lifestyle of a young single professional without much difficulty. Ultimately, you make choices in your lifestyle to allow you to reach your goals, and I've made the choice to defer my earning potential a bit to get into the career I truly want. Fortunately my life circumstances have allowed me to make that choice.
 
Plastics with a specialty in craniofacial surgery. In terms of finances, I definitely am behind my med school classmates in that I live in a 1-bedroom rented apartment, I bought a cheap used car, I do a lot of my clothes shopping at Target, etc. That being said, it's not like I'm starving, and I can maintain the lifestyle of a young single professional without much difficulty. Ultimately, you make choices in your lifestyle to allow you to reach your goals, and I've made the choice to defer my earning potential a bit to get into the career I truly want. Fortunately my life circumstances have allowed me to make that choice.

Good for you. Congrats and I hope you do great!
 
I somehow doubt you'd been in residency 27 years.
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I am aware that he's joking I was making a point. I will say that your graph/pic was quite excellent though. So even though you seem more cranky than typical I will give you kudos for that.
 
I am going to defer to Tired and his ilk on this one but I suspect many ortho (and NS) residents feel quite competent caring for patients on their services who also have medical issues.

I want to see the "first" ortho service taking care of any medical issue other than broken bones! here in Europe euthanasia is against the law, but if you really want to put an end to your patient's suffering, admitting him to ortho service is a legal option 😉
 
I want to see the "first" ortho service taking care of any medical issue other than broken bones! here in Europe euthanasia is against the law, but if you really want to put an end to your patient's suffering, admitting him to ortho service is a legal option 😉
Again, here in the states patients admitted to surgical teams are managed by the surgical teams. MANY patients with bone and joint issues also have comorbidities -- diabetes, cardiac issues, liver issues, and so on, and often these things can be exacerbated by the stresses of surgery. So yes, an ortho service will absolutely manage these issues pretty regularly. It's naive to think otherwise in this country. It won't be their favorite part of the day but it's part and parcel of floor work.
 
Again, here in the states patients admitted to surgical teams are managed by the surgical teams. MANY patients with bone and joint issues also have comorbidities -- diabetes, cardiac issues, liver issues, and so on, and often these things can be exacerbated by the stresses of surgery. So yes, an ortho service will absolutely manage these issues pretty regularly. It's naive to think otherwise in this country. It won't be their favorite part of the day but it's part and parcel of floor work.
call me naive then ....because not one of the hospitals that i have been at as a resident, fellow, and attending has the ortho service taken care of these issues...unless of course you consider consulting the medicine , cardiology, GI, and/or endocrine services as managing these issues...if your ortho services do this, well then you are lucky...though it does help me now that i had to do those things as a resident and fellow.
 
call me naive then ....because not one of the hospitals that i have been at as a resident, fellow, and attending has the ortho service taken care of these issues...unless of course you consider consulting the medicine , cardiology, GI, and/or endocrine services as managing these issues...if your ortho services do this, well then you are lucky...though it does help me now that i had to do those things as a resident and fellow.
I guess I have to call you naive then. This is extremely common.
 
I guess I have to call you naive then. This is extremely common.

why? because you say so? i'm not saying i'm right but i've been in 9 hospitals so far...and not one do the orthopods do that...if it was that common, then at least one of these places medicine would not be co-managing these pts... and i have been up and down the east coast... in the midwest or out west where the orthos don't have any other choice maybe?
 
I guess I have to call you naive then. This is extremely common.
If by "extremely common" you mean "happens in very large academic medical centers with stubborn old-school attendings who have residents to do their gruntwork", yes. I've rotated at both, and there's plenty of hospitals where ortho doesn't even bother admitting a patient with stable htn on one agent, much less patients with numerous comorbidities. Including some hospitals that are otherwise training hospitals.

edit: To add... For sure, there are other old-school ortho attendings scattered at random hospitals, but those large academic centers are the only setting where I'd call surgical subspecialists managing their own patients anything approaching common. General surgeons generally still have more pride in taking care of their own patients, but even that is becoming less common outside of centers with residents.
 
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An ortho service that manages their own patients? I dont think I'd believe it even if I saw it. Frankly, surgery should not be managing complex medical patients. It does everyone a disservice.
 
Again, here in the states patients admitted to surgical teams are managed by the surgical teams. MANY patients with bone and joint issues also have comorbidities -- diabetes, cardiac issues, liver issues, and so on, and often these things can be exacerbated by the stresses of surgery. So yes, an ortho service will absolutely manage these issues pretty regularly. It's naive to think otherwise in this country. It won't be their favorite part of the day but it's part and parcel of floor work.
Law2Doc, it seems some of your American colleagues disagree with your observation. Where I'm at ortho services have started to have so called ortho internist/geriatrics, these are full-time employed and do all floor work with residents (supervising residents). How can a ortho attending keep up with all new treatments in general medicine, specially when the population is getting older with more co-morbidities. Even the surgeons should not be the only primary when a patients with severe heart failure, grade 4 renal failure and so on are admitted to their service, even if they at the moment are admitted for a surgical disease. Had the first patient with insulin pump admitted to my service last month, nor I or my colleagues, nursing staff had any idea how that worked… for the endocrine consult it was not such a big deal...
 
Again, here in the states patients admitted to surgical teams are managed by the surgical teams. MANY patients with bone and joint issues also have comorbidities -- diabetes, cardiac issues, liver issues, and so on, and often these things can be exacerbated by the stresses of surgery. So yes, an ortho service will absolutely manage these issues pretty regularly. It's naive to think otherwise in this country. It won't be their favorite part of the day but it's part and parcel of floor work.

A lot of times though, they get medicine consults. Maybe it depends on the culture of the ortho docs, but DM/HTN/psych issues regularly seem to be defered. I dont think I've ever seen an ortho doc do that on their own. Which would make sense, there are quite a few ortho docs who haven't managed CHF or DM in a long time, and don't want to get sued for not knowing what to do other than what they learned from medical school. I also don't feel they should be ashamed, that's what medicine consults are for.

General surgeons seem to have the opposite mentality it seems. I know you are a surgeon, so I can see where you have that mentality, but it doesn't seem to be the case for all surgical specialties...honestly I rolled my eyes when one general surgeon I worked with in med school said he hated calling any consults...it's like people are experts in an areafor a reason, use them as resources. I guess I can't understand people like that, it's usually peeps who "think" they know how to practice outside their scope when they are extremely, and dangerously, wrong. I agree that surgery should not be managing complex medical problems all on their own.
 
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General surgeons seem to have the opposite mentality it seems. I know you are a surgeon, so I can see where you have that mentality, but it doesn't seem to be the case for all surgical specialties...honestly I rolled my eyes when one general surgeon I worked with in med school said he hated calling any consults...it's like people are experts in an areafor a reason, use them as resources. I guess I can't understand people like that, it's usually peeps who "think" they know how to practice outside their scope when they are extremely, and dangerously, wrong. I agree that surgery should not be managing complex medical problems all on their own.

He's never said that.
 
Didn't you learn the answer to this question from that whole exchange we had earlier in this thread? Your own experience is irrelevant. There is only one truth.
Having one's own experience is fine but when other people have had differing experiences then yes it is being "naive" to suggest something doesn't ever occur.
 
Having one's own experience is fine but when other people have had differing experiences then yes it is being "naive" to suggest something doesn't ever occur.

Exactly. Like suggesting that a hospital where attendings > residents and certain specialties aren't considered "guppies" doesn't ever occur. Or that an example of a hospitalist being made to defer to a resident because it's PGY year that matters couldn't possibly seem just plain weird to any of us.

It still seems weird to me, but I just trust that I'll quickly move on should I ever find myself at such a hospital.
 
Exactly. Like suggesting that a hospital where attendings > residents and certain specialties aren't considered "guppies" doesn't ever occur. Or that an example of a hospitalist being made to defer to a resident because it's PGY year that matters couldn't possibly seem just plain weird to any of us.

It still seems weird to me, but I just trust that I'll quickly move on should I ever find myself at such a hospital.
The situation was related somewhat differently than the point you focused in on, but whatever. I don't think you'll have much of a choice but to "quickly move on" if you are the type to change a patient's plan in the middle of the night on a patient you don't know.
 
The situation was related somewhat differently than the point you focused in on, but whatever. I don't think you'll have much of a choice but to "quickly move on" if you are the type to change a patient's plan in the middle of the night on a patient you don't know.

I don't think I'd read that little tid bit previously. However, obviously, if the clinical course we're to change it requires a change in POC. Obviously when I work nights I'm not making many changes unless a clinical scenario dictates such a move.
 
The situation was related somewhat differently than the point you focused in on, but whatever. I don't think you'll have much of a choice but to "quickly move on" if you are the type to change a patient's plan in the middle of the night on a patient you don't know.

I've absolutely done that on patients I've been consulted on. That's the point of my getting consulted. Of course I "know" the patient by virtue of reviewing the chart and seeing her. If changing plans on patients that are truly unknown is an issue, that has nothing to do with any of the "some specialties are guppies" stuff you brought up before, which I and others commented on.

Anyway, it's pretty obvious our experiences are vastly different. I definitely believe that what you say happens, happens. It's just mind boggling that you can't seem to process that your experiences are not universal and seem weird to other people.
 
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