What do you think of Chapman's Points?

[Wo1verine7DO]

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I learned these in OPP and they sort of seem like something they just randomly made them up out of nowhere. Just wondering what other students think about it?
Anthony

 

[Dr JPH]

Originally posted by Wo1verine7DO
I learned these in OPP and they sort of seem like something they just randomly made them up out of nowhere. Just wondering what other students think about it?
Anthony

Chapman's points are real and they do work quite well for diagnosis as well as treatment.

There are currently several research projects underway using chapmans and a few others that are floating around waiting to be published.

As far as them being "random", this could not be farther from the truth. The fact that they are NOT random is the entire point behind the chapmans point concept.

Find a person who had a stuffy nose and then examine them for their anterior and posterior chapmans points. They will be there.

If you want more information I would suggest consulting a book in your library. Many osteopathic texts do not go into chapmans so you will need to find a book specifically on the topic.

 

[Dr JPH]

I also see that you are in NJ.

If you cant find any evidence there, take a drive down to Philly sometime. We have docs here that will amaze you with diagnosis and treatment with chapmans. They also happened to write the books on them.

 

[DOtobe]

I agree. Chapman's points are very valid. As per JP's example, we were having an OMM practical that included Chapman's points at a time when I had a bad cold, and my partner had to find the Chapman's point for the sinuses. Well, I about went through the roof when they found the point. So the Chapman's point for the sinuses is definitely there when you have a cold (as they are for other conditions.)

And if you can massage out a Chapman's point you will feel better.

 

[Goofyone]

I think it's a load.

Your cold will go away in a week.

Using Chapman's points treatment, it will only take 7 days.

 

[DOtobe]

Originally posted by Goofyone
I think it's a load.

Your cold will go away in a week.

Using Chapman's points treatment, it will only take 7 days.

But I know they hurt like hell when I had my cold, so they most definitely do exist... 🙂

 

[DrQuinn]

Originally posted by JPHazelton
I also see that you are in NJ.

If you cant find any evidence there, take a drive down to Philly sometime. We have docs here that will amaze you with diagnosis and treatment with chapmans. They also happened to write the books on them.

Damn can your signature be any more glaring? I need to wear sunglasses when reading your posts. What school do you go to?

Q, DO

 

[DOSouthpaw]

A group of our Fellows one year did a research project and had a 90% cure rate of GERD using Chapman's Reflexes. They wrote it up but because our school and hospital doesn't have a review board, they couldn't get it published in the US, so it's going to be published in New Zealand. lol Good stuff.

 

[kissacefan1978]

Originally posted by Wo1verine7DO
I learned these in OPP and they sort of seem like something they just randomly made them up out of nowhere. Just wondering what other students think about it?
Anthony

I feel like most of the stuff we learn is randomly made up!😕

 

[DOindahouse]

they are a load of crap as is most of the OMM we learn, theres a few good cracks and myofascial releases but besides that, hokey pokey......

 

[bigmuny]

Chapman's points are just as valid as cranial osteopathy. The problem is that the stars need to be perfectly aligned in order to manipulate them. I think some members of the venomous snake handling christian sect also are sufficiently attuned to the life force to find them. I can't believe anyone would doubt them.

 

[DOtobe]

Originally posted by bigmuny
Chapman's points are just as valid as cranial osteopathy. The problem is that the stars need to be perfectly aligned in order to manipulate them. I think some members of the venomous snake handling christian sect also are sufficiently attuned to the life force to find them. I can't believe anyone would doubt them.

Although I disagree somewhat (having had some of our docs fix my headaches with cranial)...



"the venomous snake handling christian sect..."

 

[daveyboy]

Oh yeah, I remember those coming up in lecture. I enjoyed watching the professor stutter and make up B.S. when he was asked if there was any reputable research to confirm the mysterious points.
Like that cranial crap, this is part of osteopathic medicine's vestigal tail that needs to be chopped off, quick. Enough with the ooga booga, the profession has come to far to be associated with this stuff.

 

[DOtobe]

daveyboy, you remind me of some absolutely strange and totally unbelievable OMT that one of our OMM professors tried to teach us.

He told us to find a dysfunction on the spine of our partner, and place our finger on it. We were then told to place our other hand at 180 degrees from that point. We were told we could then send an "energy" to that point through our hand that would "magically" make the dysfunction melt away under our fingers. I believe he called it some sort of "bioenergy release." 🙄 I think he also told us we could use an incense stick for one of the treatments he was showing us.

Yeah. Whatever.

 

[daveyboy]

Originally posted by DOtobe
daveyboy, you remind me of some absolutely strange and totally unbelievable OMT that one of our OMM professors tried to teach us.

He told us to find a dysfunction on the spine of our partner, and place our finger on it. We were then told to place our other hand at 180 degrees from that point. We were told we could then send an "energy" to that point through our hand that would "magically" make the dysfunction melt away under our fingers. I believe he called it some sort of "bioenergy release." 🙄 I think he also told us we could use an incense stick for one of the treatments he was showing us.

Yeah. Whatever.

Wow.

God help ya if you question that stuff in the least. Then you become the MD wannabe, the most reviled creature ever.

 

[LovelyRita]

If you've accepted attendance at an Osteopathic school, then you will be taught Osteopathic principles.

Whether or not you choose to use them someday is your perogative.

Please do not badmouth Osteopathic principles on an Osteopathic thread.

M.

 

[Goofyone]

Originally posted by DrMaryC
If you've accepted attendance at an Osteopathic school, then you will be taught Osteopathic principles.

Whether or not you choose to use them someday is your perogative.

Please do not badmouth Osteopathic principles on an Osteopathic thread.

M.

I'm glad this discussion started. Wolverine asked what people thought of Chapman's. We told him.

A student has the right to question things that seem bogus, and I think it is ultimately GOOD for the profession. I'm glad people aren't afraid to say what they think. I would be critical of ANY treatment that seems bogus, osteopathic or not.
Don't get me wrong, I love my profession, my school, and I like OPP. But the one thing I am starting to dislike about the osteopathic profession (or more appropriately, the AOA) is their apparent unwillingness to evolve (in specific areas), when their practicing physicians, by and large, don't agree with some of the things they are learning. I am talking specifically about Cranial and Chapman's. This is my main beef with the DO curriculum. Anybody who isn't skeptical of these two practices (and MOST of us are), either isn't being honest with their self or needs a refresher on the scientific method, just in case they were sick that day.

Although I agree some of the comments were harsh and we can be skeptical without badmouthing the entire set of osteopathic principles (but most of us weren't doing that).

Ciao

 

[bigmuny]

Cranial osteopathy does work. I watched Benny Hinn on TV smack about twenty people on the forehead and cure them of diseases ranging from cancer to bad breath. It only took one shot to the head, and BAM they were fixed. It was the most amazing thing I have ever saw. What more proof do you doubters want?Seriously though, we are supposed to question things. That is what being a student/scientist/physician is all about.

 

[LukeWhite]

Originally posted by DrMaryC
If you've accepted attendance at an Osteopathic school, then you will be taught Osteopathic principles.

Whether or not you choose to use them someday is your perogative.

Please do not badmouth Osteopathic principles on an Osteopathic thread.

M.

Wow.

The thing that sort of troubles me about OMM, despite its obvious practical applications, is the faint whiff of cultishness still surrounding it. Not to name schools, but it's been my experience that the OMM lab is invariably a sight creepier than the anatomy lab, and those defending it are a bit more strident.

Arbitrarily labeling anything that comes out of the mouth of an osteopathic doctor an "osteopathic principle" not subject to criticism seems like an awfully dangerous path to take.

As for Chapman's Points, my big expensive osteopathic diagnosis and treatment book tucks them away at the very end with no practical discussion and only a vague discussion of their possible utility. Seems like a bit of a red flag to me.

 

[daveyboy]

Originally posted by DrMaryC
If you've accepted attendance at an Osteopathic school, then you will be taught Osteopathic principles.

Whether or not you choose to use them someday is your perogative.

Please do not badmouth Osteopathic principles on an Osteopathic thread.

M.

DO NOT QUESTION THE DOMINANT PARADIGM!! DISSENT WILL BE PUNISHED!!

Uh, OK.🙄

Actually, I think I will question what I darn well please, especially things that are very obviously questionable. To do so would be un-American, an insult to the great men that founded our country!

When I was accepted to an Osteopathic institution I was accepted into a profession as a worthy member. I am entitled, indeed, obligated to do what I feel is in the best interest of my chosen profession. Yes, I do feel that the tree of OMM is in dire need of some major pruning. Does this make me any less worthy of the seat I earned at a D.O. school, or any less of a student of Osteopathic medicine? Certainly not!

 

[daveyboy]

Originally posted by lukealfredwhite
Wow.

The thing that sort of troubles me about OMM, despite its obvious practical applications, is the faint whiff of cultishness still surrounding it. Not to name schools, but it's been my experience that the OMM lab is invariably a sight creepier than the anatomy lab, and those defending it are a bit more strident.

Arbitrarily labeling anything that comes out of the mouth of an osteopathic doctor an "osteopathic principle" not subject to criticism seems like an awfully dangerous path to take.

As for Chapman's Points, my big expensive osteopathic diagnosis and treatment book tucks them away at the very end with no practical discussion and only a vague discussion of their possible utility. Seems like a bit of a red flag to me.

Well put, man!

 

[LovelyRita]

Originally posted by Goofyone
I'm glad this discussion started. Wolverine asked what people thought of Chapman's. We told him.

A student has the right to question things that seem bogus, and I think it is ultimately GOOD for the profession. I'm glad people aren't afraid to say what they think. I would be critical of ANY treatment that seems bogus, osteopathic or not.
Don't get me wrong, I love my profession, my school, and I like OPP. But the one thing I am starting to dislike about the osteopathic profession (or more appropriately, the AOA) is their apparent unwillingness to evolve (in specific areas), when their practicing physicians, by and large, don't agree with some of the things they are learning. I am talking specifically about Cranial and Chapman's. This is my main beef with the DO curriculum. Anybody who isn't skeptical of these two practices (and MOST of us are), either isn't being honest with their self or needs a refresher on the scientific method, just in case they were sick that day.

Although I agree some of the comments were harsh and we can be skeptical without badmouthing the entire set of osteopathic principles (but most of us weren't doing that).

Ciao

Your post is basically exactly how I feel...I think that some of the more passionate opponents of Chapman's (including the thread starter) took my post A BIT TOO SERIOUSLY (jeez, RELAX!!! Go massage a Chapman's point!!😛 ).

It's so funny, b/c in the Foundations book, it IS tucked at the end, almost impossible to find...so therefore, how big a deal is it? Not much, apparently. Should they TEST us on it? I don't know....obviously the jury's out.

Bottom line, I too wish the AOA would pay more attention to these issues.

Have a great day!
M.

 

[Goofyone]

Originally posted by DrMaryC
(jeez, RELAX!!! Go massage a Chapman's point!!😛 ).

 

[DOSouthpaw]

I think the reason it's in the back of the book is because few Osteopathic docs use Chapmans anymore. Actually, few docs have ever used Chapmans except for Chapman and Owens. Copbiano(sp?) of NYCOM seems to be the big man on Chapmans right now, but I don't agree with his treatment sequence.

When I use Chapmans, I do it the way that Chapman did it, or at least the way Owens (The Interpreter) said Chapman did it. 🙂 I balance the pelvis; treat the left anterior points, the right anterior points, the left posterior point, and the right posterior points.

Another reason it?s not used very much is because of the modality itself. Chapmans hurts like crazy if the person has a very prominent point. Exquisitely tender is not even close the pain that some people have when a hot point is treated.

Diagnostically, they rock. One of our students impressed a MD in town so much by his use of Chapmans to diagnose appendicitis that she wants to take OPP now.

If you don't believe in them, that's cool, but here's a little research you can do. Go find a person with real bad GERD and then start palpating around the stomach acidity and esophagus points and see what happens, even if you can't feel them, the patient will. Then slip the patient/friend some pain killers so you can keep practicing and keep doing so until you can palpate them. 🙂 lol

 

[Dr JPH]

I am currently working on a case study on a friend.

I was palpating for chapmans and found a corresponding point for her ovary.

She is schedueld for an ultrasound to look for a cyst or other pathology. (per my recommendation)

I will post when my case is completed.


Let's hope they find something or I just made myself look stupid and cost her some cash.
😉

 

[dkwyler94]

I have had discussions about Chapman's points in the past. I think what it finally comes down to is, it doesn't matter if they exist or not. As the OMM field believe OMM does not have to be researched, they will never become part of the standard of care for our patients. We are ultimately judged on this standard.

Let us consider an obvious case. A ten year old patient presents to the ER in pain. They have not been eating well, have flatus, and find it more comfortable to flex slightly at the waist. The pain started periumbilically and is now focused in the RUQ. You do a CBC, which is elevated.

This of course is suggestive of an appendicitis with the appendix in an atypical location. Now, are you going to check a chapman's point at the end of rib 12 to see if it is indeed appendicitis and send them to surgery based on this finding (or if a real OMM quack doc treat them with manipulation) or would you consider a CT or US to confirm your dx.

If you don't find the chapman's will you sit on it and see what develops with the patient having illiminated appendicitis from your ddx.

Of course in this and other situations, you will go to the gold standard of dx and tx. Basing a medical course of action based on the presence or absence of Chapman's points will not stand up in peir review or in the courts. By the lack of research to support them, if they exist, they might as well not at this time.

I can also say there was not a single Chapman's point question on the ComlexI.

As to all the other comments about the OMM mysticism. I totally agree, but fortunatly once I got out of town and started rotations, it seems to have melted away. Even the DO's I work with who use OMM think it is carried to far. These people hold a lot of clout in our profession. I hope in 20 years when our generation takes over leadership, we will be able to redirect it into more towards EBM.

David, MSIII

 

[LovelyRita]

Originally posted by dkwyler94
If you don't find the chapman's will you sit on it and see what develops with the patient having illiminated appendicitis from your ddx.

I think it's eliminated .

 

[sophiejane]

Thank god I am not the only person horrified by the spelling/grammar skills of many of the individuals in our noble profession.

I find it truly shocking. Especially since it seems there is an inverse relationship between how well a person spells/writes/uses punctuation and the number of science-related letters behind their name.

🙂

 

[GeauxDO]

First I want to say that I too sometimes question some of the osteopathic practices and have no problem with anyone else doubting.

But my question for those on here saying this is BS and that is BS:
What makes you feel this way?

Have you tried it, and it didn't work? Did you check into the research and find that it was either nonexistent or contradicted the theories? Or is it that you just don't understand it and don't want to bother trying? I'd like to hear your responses.

While science does involve questioning beliefs, it doesn't involve pointing your finger and hollering "shananigans" where ever you feel and not back it up.

 

[Dr JPH]

Originally posted by GeauxDO

But my question for those on here saying this is BS and that is BS:
What makes you feel this way?

Have you tried it, and it didn't work? Did you check into the research and find that it was either nonexistent or contradicted the theories? Or is it that you just don't understand it and don't want to bother trying? I'd like to hear your responses.

I find that the people who are quick to consider something "not real" and "not valuable" to know are the ones who can't figure it out...either because it is too difficult for them to grasp or it was not taught as well as it could have been.

People used to think the world was flat until it was proven otherwise. It just takes one person not to fall off the end of the earth...

 

[LukeWhite]

I may be a bit backwards, but I thought the world was flat until proved otherwise to me. It seemed to fit in with my observations pretty well, and was more immediately useful than the alternative.

I think most of the doubters of this or that osteopathic principle would be more than happy to believe in its efficacy if demonstrated to them (even in some hard documentation), but one can't be faulted for doubting the usefulness of those principles with more basis in personal testament than double-blinds.

 

[daveyboy]

Any doubt I have in Chapman's Points or OMT in general tends to stem from the fact that, more often then not, these theories rarely offer a distict mechanism of action. Additionally, it is rare to see OMT backed up by stringent research. Believe it or not, I am very open to the idea that much of OMT works, I just want to see real, peer reviewed, published research showing a statistically significant effect for individual techniques. I keep hearing it is in the works, so it should be just a matter of time before some papers are published.
The old line of, "You just need to be open minded" is getting realy old. I wouldn't accept that for me and I won't accept that for my future patients. The same holds true for a new pharmaceutical, or any other treatment. SHOW ME THE DATA!

 

[Shinken]

Ah, yes...the battle among the broad osteopaths and the lesion osteopaths is alive and well... 😉

 

[dkwyler94]

Originally posted by DrMaryC
I think it's eliminated .

Oh, I'm sew imbarised ewe shood tri two reed mi SOAP noats.

🙂😛

 

[Wo1verine7DO]

It just seemed like our professor skipped over that part, but put it on our quiz...I don't hate them. I just don't understand why they seem significant without any research. It's like one guy comes up with it and dies, and its all of a sudden an important topic. I like OMT, but sometimes it seems like we are randomly doing things that don't make sense at all.
Anthony
UHSCOM class of 2007

 

[Dr JPH]

Originally posted by daveyboy
Any doubt I have in Chapman's Points or OMT in general tends to stem from the fact that, more often then not, these theories rarely offer a distict mechanism of action. Additionally, it is rare to see OMT backed up by stringent research. Believe it or not, I am very open to the idea that much of OMT works, I just want to see real, peer reviewed, published research showing a statistically significant effect for individual techniques.

I applaud your open mindedness towards OMT. At least you dont disregard it before giving it a chance to prove itself.

However, I disagree with your statement that "these theories rarely offer a distinct mechanism of actin."

Here at PCOM, at least, the OMT professors are very adamant about teaching us HOW these things work, not just that they do work. Back in the AT Still days...rub this, crack that...<boom> youre healed. Much less understanding to that.

But we have had the Chapmans point lecture at least 3 times that I can recall, all taking a different approach. (Chapmans points, Chapmans reflexes, and Dx of Back pain) We certainly DO learn the physiology behind these mechanisms, and the text references are often times not osteopathic literature, but anatomy and physiology literature (moore, guyton).

If they are not teaching this at your school then I would certainly question the validity of the techniques as well. Talk to your professors...have them explain it to you. Do some extra reading...go to the library and take out certain books. I do. And I understand (as many of you may notice) that I have a good grasp on OMM.

One of the professors here once said to me "If you dont know HOW a technique works, the physiology and science behind it, then put your hands in your pocket...youre going to hurt someone."

 

[LovelyRita]

Originally posted by Wo1verine7DO
but sometimes it seems like we are randomly doing things that don't make sense at all.

I used to work at an allopathic teaching hospital. Over and over again, this was many people's general consensus. If you'd like to know more or read some of my presented abstracts, let me know.
M.