What do you value more, P/F grading or lower tuition?

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Basically the title! I've been accepted to two schools that I like, one a little more than the other. The one I like more is P/F grading, but tuition is 65k a year in a high COL area. On the other hand, my state school is around ~34k a year in a low-cost city but has a graded curriculum. Both schools are T40. Looking for some insight, thanks!
 
doodlebot said:
Basically the title! I've been accepted to two schools that I like, one a little more than the other. The one I like more is P/F grading, but tuition is 65k a year in a high COL area. On the other hand, my state school is around ~34k a year in a low-cost city but has a graded curriculum. Both schools are T40. Looking for some insight, thanks!
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I think it's way too soon to be worrying about this. The cycle is far from over, you have no idea what other As you will receive, or if anyone will offer you money that will totally alter whatever conclusion you reach now. I'd honestly try to put it out of my mind until sometime in March, or even April, when you will have better visibility into what your options are. They are almost certain to change from what you think they are today.
 
It depends on your finances. Is your parents paying full, partial, or are you handling it on your own?

If parents don't mind the price tag, go P/F. If you're taking loans out to cover tuition, go to the one in low cost city.
 
PatchAdamsWannabe said:
Wow, really tough situation. I think I'd choose P/F to have a somewhat lower stress level, as long as it's truly P/F. Some programs are P/F but you're still ranked. If that is the case, then I'd go for the lower tuition.

I'd also consider reaching out later in the cycle to see about the possibility of pitting them against each other for financial aid.
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Since it's so early, fin aid might come anyway, but, if it doesn't, do private schools really compete with IS public based on price (i.e., need or merit scholarships)?????
 
Do you have a specialty in mind, @doodlebot ? If it's something that doesn't pay as well like primary care, psychiatry or especially a peds subspecialty, then the lower tuition might be worth it.

This is really hard. Good luck to you. <3
 
Thank you for the replies, everyone! To clarify, I'm hoping to stay in a particular area that these two schools are located in, so that's why I'm inquiring before hearing back from others. The more expensive school has also been pretty open about not offering much aid to their students, so I'm not banking on a scholarship.

Regarding payment, my parents have been really amazing and offered to pay full tuition for the instate school, and the equivalent price if I choose to attend the private school. They are really pushing for the state school though.

Regarding specialty, I'm considering something more competitive like ophthalmology, but I know this could change when I'm actually in school!
 
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Preclinical grades are low-influence for residency applications anyways. Take the $120,000+ in savings and then just don't let yourself obsess with preclinical grades. Don't be bottom quartile or anything, but no need to overwork yourself for top quartile either.
 
doodlebot said:
Thank you for the replies, everyone! To clarify, I'm hoping to stay in a particular area that these two schools are located in, so that's why I'm inquiring before hearing back from others. The more expensive school has also been pretty open about not offering much aid to their students, so I'm not banking on a scholarship.

Regarding payment, my parents have been really amazing and offered to pay full tuition for the instate school, and the equivalent price if I choose to attend the private school. They are really pushing for the state school since though.

Regarding specialty, I'm considering something more competitive like ophthalmology, but I know this could change when I'm actually in school!
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With this additional bit of info (really liking the area and receiving significant financial help from your parents), advice will be easier to give at the price of your decision being less clear -- just do what makes you happier.

Your debt will be significant but manageable at the private school. P/F will take some pressure off, but, as @PatchAdamsWannabe pointed out, try to determine whether the school will be ranking you anyway. If so, P/F will optically make you feel better day to day, but, in the end, you'll be in pretty much the same place for residency matches as if you were graded. And, of course, your parents have a point regarding money since pretty much any US MD can get you wherever you are destined to go.

You haven't mentioned it, so I assume it's not relevant, but, if the private school is T10, T20, etc., that could change the calculus somewhat, especially if you are gunning for ophthalmology.
 
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doodlebot said:
Basically the title! I've been accepted to two schools that I like, one a little more than the other. The one I like more is P/F grading, but tuition is 65k a year in a high COL area. On the other hand, my state school is around ~34k a year in a low-cost city but has a graded curriculum. Both schools are T40. Looking for some insight, thanks!
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Not gunna lie, pass fail is amazing
 
doodlebot said:
Thank you for the replies, everyone! To clarify, I'm hoping to stay in a particular area that these two schools are located in, so that's why I'm inquiring before hearing back from others. The more expensive school has also been pretty open about not offering much aid to their students, so I'm not banking on a scholarship.

Regarding payment, my parents have been really amazing and offered to pay full tuition for the instate school, and the equivalent price if I choose to attend the private school. They are really pushing for the state school though.

Regarding specialty, I'm considering something more competitive like ophthalmology, but I know this could change when I'm actually in school!
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i would have another discussion with parents. check on whether or not the tuition at P/F school would be burdensome for them to fully cover

if so, i would go state school
 
Damson said:
i would have another discussion with parents. check on whether or not the tuition at P/F school would be burdensome for them to fully cover

if so, i would go state school
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???? What's "burden" got to do with anything??? OP is very lucky that he's got parents willing and able to contribute anything at all!! Parents are pushing for state school, and they are not even making it their way or the highway, since they are willing to contribute an equivalent amount wherever OP wants to go.

Beyond that, why would it have to be a burden for parents to require OP to put his money where his mouth is if he really wants the more expensive option?? If it were me, I'd never have the nerve to go back to my parents and risk having them think I'm so spoiled and ungrateful for what they've offered that they pull the offer.
 
Absolutely the tuition. No one cares about preclinical grades as long as you pass. The modest psychological benefit you’d get from p/f can be gotten by looking at PD surveys and talking to mentors to realize that your preclinical grades don’t matter. No amount of rationalizing will get you back 6 figures of tuition.
 
doodlebot said:
Basically the title! I've been accepted to two schools that I like, one a little more than the other. The one I like more is P/F grading, but tuition is 65k a year in a high COL area. On the other hand, my state school is around ~34k a year in a low-cost city but has a graded curriculum. Both schools are T40. Looking for some insight, thanks!
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If you were my kid, I'd send you to the cheaper school
 
Goro said:
If you were my kid, I'd send you to the cheaper school
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Send?? Wow!! Way to treat your kid like a mature adult!!! Sounds like he or she might need a few gap years until you wouldn't be "sending" him or her anywhere!! :laugh::laugh:

Med schools aren't going anywhere, but adcoms like to see a level of maturity as manifested by applicants not being "sent" anywhere by their parents. It's true! I know this because various adcom experts have said as much right here on SDN!!! 😎
 
KnightDoc said:
Send?? Wow!! Way to treat your kid like a mature adult!!! Sounds like he or she might need a few gap years until you wouldn't be "sending" him or her anywhere!! :laugh::laugh:

Med schools aren't going anywhere, but adcoms like to see a level of maturity as manifested by applicants not being "sent" anywhere by their parents. It's true! I know this because various adcom experts have said as much right here on SDN!!! 😎
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You realize that @Goro is an adcom right?
 
Goro said:
If you were my kid, I'd send you to the cheaper school
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I am not "sending" my kid anywhere but I will let him decide where he wants to go since I trust his judgement. He made the right call for UG.
 
KnightDoc said:
???? What's "burden" got to do with anything??? OP is very lucky that he's got parents willing and able to contribute anything at all!! Parents are pushing for state school, and they are not even making it their way or the highway, since they are willing to contribute an equivalent amount wherever OP wants to go.

Beyond that, why would it have to be a burden for parents to require OP to put his money where his mouth is if he really wants the more expensive option?? If it were me, I'd never have the nerve to go back to my parents and risk having them think I'm so spoiled and ungrateful for what they've offered that they pull the offer.
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KnightDoc said:
???? What's "burden" got to do with anything??? OP is very lucky that he's got parents willing and able to contribute anything at all!! Parents are pushing for state school, and they are not even making it their way or the highway, since they are willing to contribute an equivalent amount wherever OP wants to go.

Beyond that, why would it have to be a burden for parents to require OP to put his money where his mouth is if he really wants the more expensive option?? If it were me, I'd never have the nerve to go back to my parents and risk having them think I'm so spoiled and ungrateful for what they've offered that they pull the offer.
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Lol why did you get so offended by that? You act like discussing with parents the COA is like negotiating a scholarship with a school. There’s nothing wrong with having an honest conversation with your parents about the pros and cons of two medical school...
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
I am not "sending" my kid anywhere but I will let him decide where he wants to go since I trust his judgement. He made the right call for UG.
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Dang I hope your kid got a lot more than a Pass/Fail freshman year, if you also paid >$100,000 more to send them there
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
You realize that @Goro is an adcom right?
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Yes, the post was meant in good fun because he is always advising patience and extolling the virtues of maturing through gap years. I was just poking a little fun over the way he let his guard down and expressed his paternal instinct to control what his own kids do while telling us war stories involving overbearing parents helicoptering over THEIR kid's cycles.
 
Hzreio said:
Lol why did you get so offended by that? You act like discussing with parents the COA is like negotiating a scholarship with a school. There’s nothing wrong with having an honest conversation with your parents about the pros and cons of two medical school...
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Of course! I don't know OP, but, from living my own life, I'm quite sure that conversation already took place and the result was an offer to cover full IS public school tuition wherever OP decides to go. I was reacting to the advice that OP should go back to parents to reopen the discussion if full tuition anywhere didn't represent a "burden." My dad would probably throw me out of the room if I did that. YMMV.

If P/F is worth the premium, any med school grad would be able to service the debt created by that premium. My parents would think I was being ungrateful and entitled simply by asking them to fund the "pros" of P/F. In fact, my old school dad would be annoyed that I wasn't eager to work for the grade to ensure that his tuition dollars were well spent!! No kidding.
 
efle said:
Dang I hope your kid got a lot more than a Pass/Fail freshman year, if you also paid >$100,000 more to send them there
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My kid is a college senior and current cycle applicant. He chose T20 free tuition over ivy league (for UG) even though I was willing to pay.
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
My kid is a college senior and current cycle applicant. He chose T20 free tuition over ivy league (for UG) even though I was willing to pay.
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Yeah, you're a real hero allowing your kid to choose to save you $200K+ in tuition, with absolutely no parental interference!! :laugh:
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
You realize that @Goro is an adcom right?
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He knows that. Unfortunately, some SDNers lack reading and cultural comprehension skills, on top of being near troll-like insufferable know-it-alls.

Fortunately, that is why we have the Ignore function!
 
Goro said:
He knows that. Unfortunately, some SDNers lack reading and cultural comprehension skills, on top of being near troll-like insufferable know-it-alls.

Fortunately, that is why we have the Ignore function!
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Seems like US education system failed him.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Okay let’s try to keep the thread on topic.
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sure, I find it odd that an adcom will go after a premed like that. As a parent, I do find some of the advice is off the mark but I alo recognize that you get different opinions and ultimately one has to figure out what to take.

Going balk to the topic, what other criteria one should look to pick a school. I know P/F is a big one, but is it too early to think about certain specialties and check the school's reputation in those specialties?
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
Going balk to the topic, what other criteria one should look to pick a school. I know P/F is a big one, but is it too early to think about certain specialties and check the school's reputation in those specialties?
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If you are going to an MD school, there is basically no specialty out of reach just from your school. Match lists are really not super useful, but if you want to do something that’s really competitive or something you can see if they historically match people to that.
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
what other criteria one should look to pick a school. I know P/F is a big one, but is it too early to think about certain specialties and check the school's reputation in those specialties?
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P/F is overhyped. Med students are a generally perfectionist Type A group that are distressed by being told they are average, but no PD is going to turn away someone with great boards, clerkships, letters and research because of average preclinical marks.

If you know you have an interest in a specific field that is unshakable (like I have classmates with a PhD related to their field before they started school) you could consider how that specific med school tends to do in that specialty match. Some of the big names do have surprisingly weaker departments in that regard.

But for the typical undifferentiated premed who only states an interest in competitive subspecialties because they sound cool, you are better off going by cost and location. Med school isn't just about where you match. It's also half of your 20s, and the Uncle Sam funny money that shows up in your bank account like magic can be a massive debt burden down the road.
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
Going balk to the topic, what other criteria one should look to pick a school. I know P/F is a big one, but is it too early to think about certain specialties and check the school's reputation in those specialties?
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I would add to that how would it matter differently if one has top 5 vs bottom 20.
 
HopeP said:
I would add to that how would it matter differently if one has Top 5 vs bottom 20.
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Not everyone values rankings and if you are taking loans then you should be more sensitive to the tuition. If you or your parents can afford I don't have an issue spending for prestige or if you think going to T5 schools help you get into competitive specialties. So there is no one size fits all answer.
 
KnightDoc said:
???? What's "burden" got to do with anything??? OP is very lucky that he's got parents willing and able to contribute anything at all!! Parents are pushing for state school, and they are not even making it their way or the highway, since they are willing to contribute an equivalent amount wherever OP wants to go.

Beyond that, why would it have to be a burden for parents to require OP to put his money where his mouth is if he really wants the more expensive option?? If it were me, I'd never have the nerve to go back to my parents and risk having them think I'm so spoiled and ungrateful for what they've offered that they pull the offer.
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KnightDoc said:
Of course! I don't know OP, but, from living my own life, I'm quite sure that conversation already took place and the result was an offer to cover full IS public school tuition wherever OP decides to go. I was reacting to the advice that OP should go back to parents to reopen the discussion if full tuition anywhere didn't represent a "burden." My dad would probably throw me out of the room if I did that. YMMV.

If P/F is worth the premium, any med school grad would be able to service the debt created by that premium. My parents would think I was being ungrateful and entitled simply by asking them to fund the "pros" of P/F. In fact, my old school dad would be annoyed that I wasn't eager to work for the grade to ensure that his tuition dollars were well spent!! No kidding.
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What the OP replied "Regarding payment, my parents have been really amazing and offered to pay full tuition for the instate school, and the equivalent price if I choose to attend the private school. They are really pushing for the state school though." tells us that his/her parents have already offered to pay the tuition for either choice. My parents are also offering to pay full fees for my upcoming program. If the purpose is to fund my kid's med school and relieve financial stressors, minus 250k barely itches for some parents.

Your parents may limit you to only the cheapest possible option or offer only a partial amount. Our backgrounds, priorities and value of things (P/F, prestige, location) also differ. But as kids we don't know exactly how they feel about the cost of attendance or if they're hiding how they feel about it (as parents sometimes do). I care about my folks, so I'm going to double check before making my decision. That's why evaluating "burden" matters to me.

I'm sure you mean well but the extra "????" "???" and "!" "!!" is actually virtue signaling. You mentioned that your dad would think you ungrateful and entitled simply by approaching them on this issue and would throw you out of the room. Other kids can operate differently under more open, relaxed (less guilt-tripping) family dynamics. Let's not guilt-trip the OP.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
If you are going to an MD school, there is basically no specialty out of reach just from your school. Match lists are really not super useful, but if you want to do something that’s really competitive or something you can see if they historically match people to that.
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Hi! I sent you a PM with a quick question I hope you're able to answer! TIA
 
I was in your shoes last cycle. I ultimately chose lower tuition but I'm not going to lie: the Honors/High Pass/Pass/Fail system definitely messed with me this past semester.
 
How do you guys feel about a school that does A/B/C/D/F grading scale for clinical? I feel like that can get very subjective
 
In a similar situation as OP, but with slight differences. In this case both schools are P/F with similar Step2 scores.

School A:
- Approx $40K/year in low COL area
- T80
- Class is entirely ranked

School B:
- Approx $60K/year in a high COL area
- T30
- No internal ranking whatsoever

I’m honestly waffling back and forth since $80K+ is no pocket change, but I don’t want to shoot myself in the foot if I spontaneously became interested in a competitive specialty later on.

I’d love to hear some opinions on which you guys think is better!
 
Med16484 said:
How do you guys feel about a school that does A/B/C/D/F grading scale for clinical? I feel like that can get very subjective
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It doesn’t feel that different from programs who are already doing Honors/High Pass/Pass/Fail. I think a more pertinent question is to ask if it’s curved (I.e. only a percentage of people in each clerkship can get an A).
 
ampersandwich said:
In a similar situation as OP, but with slight differences. In this case both schools are P/F with similar Step2 scores.

School A:
- Approx $40K/year in low COL area
- T80
- Class is entirely ranked

School B:
- Approx $60K/year in a high COL area
- T30
- No internal ranking whatsoever

I’m honestly waffling back and forth since $80K+ is no pocket change, but I don’t want to shoot myself in the foot if I spontaneously became interested in a competitive specialty later on.

I’d love to hear some opinions on which you guys think is better!
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I HATE telling other people how to spend their money, but this really doesn't seem that close at all to me.

$80K is very definitely pocket change, even with accrued interest, when spread over a lifetime of MD earnings. If School B truly has no internal ranking, that $80K is buying you insurance against being ranked near the bottom of the class at School A, plus whatever prestige is associated with T30 vs. T80. For less than a $100K difference spread over 4 years, that's a huge bargain and this looks like a no-brainer to me. If the money is that important to you, then there is no reason to look at anything other than money, and there is nothing to waffle over.
 
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