- Joined
- Sep 20, 2004
- Messages
- 6,009
- Reaction score
- 6,721
no..>50%…that would be sizable.
like "many" and "most"…many DO students apply for MD residency spots, but not most.
What does it mean if a program has a lot of IMGs, DOs, or Caribbean residents?
- Thread starter Purella
- Start date
like "many" and "most"…many DO students apply for MD residency spots, but not most.
I think problems come when you generalize and judge any population of anyone....
I had excellent stats going into applying for med school.. top of my class, tons of community service, a lot of leadership, phi beta kappa, several other honor societies...and i chose to ONLY apply to DO schools... because I was genuinely more interested in being a DO, looking for a school that was strong but humble and with a class that would not cut each others throats out to make each other look bad (I know this isn't every MD school, i had heard stories of a few in particular).
I scored very high on my boards and am in the top quartile of my class. A lot of my training has been with MD's and MD students and have never felt inferior in knowledge or how i was treated. I have seen a lot of very sick people (yes sick people are in community hospitals too... i have also had experiences at a local university as well which have been the same) and in no way consider myself unprepared to jump into intern year. I am also choosing to go into primary care... not because i have to but because i love it. I am not the exception in my class.
Anyone who can tough their way through medical training deserves respect. The moral of my long rant? Don't judge or generalize anyone. Why did i choose to be a DO or go into primary care? Because i love it and i don't care what anyone might think or judge me about. Am I less competitive than you because my two little letters at the end of my name will be different? If you think you are better than me or anyone else for being a DO thats your problem. We are all the same just trying to work hard to become a doctor.
As for who uses OMT and who doesn't... who cares. Because some docs use it and some don't does not make being a DO a lesser of a degree. It is your decision how you would like to incorporate OMT.. if at all. Sometimes it depends on nothing else than where you work and if you have time to do it on people. I will be the first one to admit that some of the stuff we learn about seems like total BS... until you see it work. Many docs who do a lot of OMT prescribe a shockingly less amount of pain medicines. A quick google search can find you many scientific studies that show OMT to be effective in many common ailments, particularly headaches, low back pain, and general musculoskeletal complaints.
If you think your residency program is less competitive because there are DOs in it then that sounds like a personal prejudice you have to deal with. You know nothing about those DOs... they may have been more competitive than you are. If you still have a problem with it... don't apply. Problem solved.
Besides that the DO vs. MD debate is extremely antiquated and arguing about it kind of ridiculous. I supposed I succumbed to peer pressure to defend my profession and point out the ridiculousness. O well.
I had excellent stats going into applying for med school.. top of my class, tons of community service, a lot of leadership, phi beta kappa, several other honor societies...and i chose to ONLY apply to DO schools... because I was genuinely more interested in being a DO, looking for a school that was strong but humble and with a class that would not cut each others throats out to make each other look bad (I know this isn't every MD school, i had heard stories of a few in particular).
I scored very high on my boards and am in the top quartile of my class. A lot of my training has been with MD's and MD students and have never felt inferior in knowledge or how i was treated. I have seen a lot of very sick people (yes sick people are in community hospitals too... i have also had experiences at a local university as well which have been the same) and in no way consider myself unprepared to jump into intern year. I am also choosing to go into primary care... not because i have to but because i love it. I am not the exception in my class.
Anyone who can tough their way through medical training deserves respect. The moral of my long rant? Don't judge or generalize anyone. Why did i choose to be a DO or go into primary care? Because i love it and i don't care what anyone might think or judge me about. Am I less competitive than you because my two little letters at the end of my name will be different? If you think you are better than me or anyone else for being a DO thats your problem. We are all the same just trying to work hard to become a doctor.
As for who uses OMT and who doesn't... who cares. Because some docs use it and some don't does not make being a DO a lesser of a degree. It is your decision how you would like to incorporate OMT.. if at all. Sometimes it depends on nothing else than where you work and if you have time to do it on people. I will be the first one to admit that some of the stuff we learn about seems like total BS... until you see it work. Many docs who do a lot of OMT prescribe a shockingly less amount of pain medicines. A quick google search can find you many scientific studies that show OMT to be effective in many common ailments, particularly headaches, low back pain, and general musculoskeletal complaints.
If you think your residency program is less competitive because there are DOs in it then that sounds like a personal prejudice you have to deal with. You know nothing about those DOs... they may have been more competitive than you are. If you still have a problem with it... don't apply. Problem solved.
Besides that the DO vs. MD debate is extremely antiquated and arguing about it kind of ridiculous. I supposed I succumbed to peer pressure to defend my profession and point out the ridiculousness. O well.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 1,470
- Reaction score
- 265
Oh, and by the way, if you're going to disagree with me, there's no need to be rude about it.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,668
- Reaction score
- 2,608
True, my apologies, I tend to get fired up about this stuff at times.
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2000
- Messages
- 39,952
- Reaction score
- 18,720
Completely false for ACGME accredited residencies.
Cool so then I don't see any real benefit to taking an AMG over a FMG with good communication skills who has finished all 3 usmle exams with stellar scores
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2000
- Messages
- 39,952
- Reaction score
- 18,720
Perceived reputation.
American medical students will look at the number of foreign grads on a residency list and will automatically downgrade the reputation of that program based on the number of foreign grads.
It's unfair in the case of superstar foreign trained physicians but some American students are not. clever enough to figure that out.
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2011
- Messages
- 8,873
- Reaction score
- 11,315
With all other things being equal, a PD will take the AMG 99.9% of the time.
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2012
- Messages
- 814
- Reaction score
- 231
Which would make sense. There's usually a pretty good reason if an FMG is picked over an AMG.
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2009
- Messages
- 17,237
- Reaction score
- 13,030
Well the thread was over on Friday at 8:00 am, but you felt the need to resurrect it again. Interesting you would light the bomb again now and then complain about having to go off into your bomb shelter.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2005
- Messages
- 3,074
- Reaction score
- 3,287
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2013
- Messages
- 16
- Reaction score
- 4
There are no brilliant DOs. You don't see the HS valedictorian, top undergraduate students choosing a DO school over a MD. You may see a few hardworking students in DO school who do well and become good doctors. You CAN see brilliant MDs - truly gifted individuals who have excelled on every level and will change the face of medicine in their careers.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2013
- Messages
- 38,603
- Reaction score
- 76,026
I don't even care to correct you. Broad sweeping statements like this are pretty ******ed.And HS valedictorian? That's pretty much meaningless in the grand scheme of things. So meaningless as to actually be laughable. Like, I laughed out loud when I read it.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2012
- Messages
- 4,561
- Reaction score
- 15,808
And HS valedictorian? That's pretty much meaningless in the grand scheme of things. So meaningless as to actually be laughable. Like, I laughed out loud when I read it.
Me too, considering my best friend is a DO who actually was her high school valedictorian and graduated undergrad summa cum laude. I don't know how she did on the MCAT, but her undergrad achievements included tons of research as well. She chose a DO school because she was restricted to two states if she wanted to remain close to her husband and parents (husband had a great job that didn't travel well). When you talk in absolutes, be prepared for people to call you on it.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2013
- Messages
- 38,603
- Reaction score
- 76,026
Yeah, we've got a lot of people from top undergrads at my school who had excellent research, etc, but went DO because of reasons as variable as geographic restrictions, to family members that were DOs that encouraged them, to having MCATs that weren't as strong as they could have been (29ish, which would have gotten them into an MD school fifteen years ago, but won't today). Hell, I had a 3.81/35 and I went DO without applying MD.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2004
- Messages
- 4,514
- Reaction score
- 2,841
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2011
- Messages
- 8,873
- Reaction score
- 11,315
Kind of unrelated, but may I ask why? Were you severely limited geographically?
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2013
- Messages
- 38,603
- Reaction score
- 76,026
There were quite a few reasons for my decision. Location, school fit, time in the cycle, my age, etc.
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2011
- Messages
- 8,873
- Reaction score
- 11,315
I mean was there some hippy "MDs don't appreciate the whole person" crap that made you not even apply MD? I know a number of people that didn't want to leave their city/state and thus had no options besides DO schools.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2013
- Messages
- 38,603
- Reaction score
- 76,026
Fit was big. The way that DO schools select their students tends to attract the type of people I get along well with. Most of the MD schools around that I visited just... I just didn't belong there. It's hard to describe. It was more a personality thing than a philosophy thing.
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2011
- Messages
- 8,873
- Reaction score
- 11,315
Reasonable. Sorry about the weird line of questioning. Carry on.
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2009
- Messages
- 1,988
- Reaction score
- 2,576
Only a sith deals in absolutes.
(I'm pretty sure I've used that one before...)
- Joined
- May 31, 2009
- Messages
- 282
- Reaction score
- 17
At the end of the day it comes down to performance in medical school, program desirability, and program director prejudice (or not). What does this mean? 1) Many programs would rather take a kick ass Carib/IMG/FMG over a mediocre or sub-par AMG. That is to say, in places that will even look at Carib/IMG/FMG's. This leads to PD prejudice. Some programs are just plain prejudiced and refuse to look at anything international or some don't look at DO, some don't look at either. That is hit or miss. It's not necessarily the best programs that are like that, many schools including Hopkins, Mayo, Duke, etc have accepted students from my school for residencies. This PD dependant also pertains to specialties, it takes an "in" for us to get a neurosurg, derm, opthal, etc spot. Whereas FM, IM, Peds, etc are more attainable. Lastly, program desirability. Programs will always pick the cream of the crop....for who applies. You can probably find % of applicants to a program who are US MD, US DO, or IMG/FMG (btw IMG means US citizen who did school abroad, FMG means foreign citizen who did school abroad) on the NRMP match statistics.
Final points. 1) Because they take a lot of IMG/FMG probably means something is less desireable whether it be location, quality of education, etc. 2) I would not blanket statement and say all IMG/FMG are subpar because I outperform US grads in my own and many other specialties when off service (at an academic institution). To the point nurses actually sent a letter stating they enjoyed us on their floor then their OWN residents because we were on top of it. 3) A majority of the programs that don't take IMG/FMG/DO isn't because they are subpar but they just don't look at them at all. If they did I guarantee there would be less US grads in that program. Take the recent match stats, AMG unmatched rates went up but IMG/FMG/DO match rates didn't change. More programs are picking the better candidate than pure pedigree.
My 2 cents.
Final points. 1) Because they take a lot of IMG/FMG probably means something is less desireable whether it be location, quality of education, etc. 2) I would not blanket statement and say all IMG/FMG are subpar because I outperform US grads in my own and many other specialties when off service (at an academic institution). To the point nurses actually sent a letter stating they enjoyed us on their floor then their OWN residents because we were on top of it. 3) A majority of the programs that don't take IMG/FMG/DO isn't because they are subpar but they just don't look at them at all. If they did I guarantee there would be less US grads in that program. Take the recent match stats, AMG unmatched rates went up but IMG/FMG/DO match rates didn't change. More programs are picking the better candidate than pure pedigree.
My 2 cents.
In the US residency system, it will ALWAYS be pedigree>quality. Programs like to post the residents on their websites and display all of the "great" programs each has come from.
Also, you have to remember that medical schools have "quotas" to fill so regardless of an applicant's credentials they will normally need to have a certain about of students from each race, religion, sex etc regardless of how well they stack up against other applicants. In residency, you have the complete opposite. Residency programs do not have quotas and just simply rule out DO, US IMG or FMG's altogether to beef up their "line-up" to display to the world.
It's funny how in sports you always play "the best players" and very few people disagree with that thought because winning is important. However, ironically when it comes to patient care and peoples live's, its more important to be PC.
Also, you have to remember that medical schools have "quotas" to fill so regardless of an applicant's credentials they will normally need to have a certain about of students from each race, religion, sex etc regardless of how well they stack up against other applicants. In residency, you have the complete opposite. Residency programs do not have quotas and just simply rule out DO, US IMG or FMG's altogether to beef up their "line-up" to display to the world.
It's funny how in sports you always play "the best players" and very few people disagree with that thought because winning is important. However, ironically when it comes to patient care and peoples live's, its more important to be PC.
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2011
- Messages
- 8,873
- Reaction score
- 11,315
The top places may not look at IMGs or DOs, but I've seen both IMGs and DOs at pretty solid ACGME programs. A top of the line DO will do better than middling MD more often than not.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2012
- Messages
- 4,561
- Reaction score
- 15,808
If it was "ALWAYS" pedigree > quality, then no US MD would go unmatched, ever, and no IMG or DO would be ranked over a US MD, ever.
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2013
- Messages
- 16
- Reaction score
- 4
haha nothing wrong with what I said. I said that the best of the best DO pales in comparison to the best of the best MD. Yes some DOs went to good schools with good GPAs, blah, blah. who cares. Comparing the best DO and saying they may be better than a mediocre MD is worthless.
The point is the best MDs dominate. They don't get 35s on the MCAT. They get >40. They don't have a high GPA. They have the best GPA. They do research, they innovate, their work ethic is phenomenal and they do well in many aspects of life. Thats the reality. The very best DO in the history of DO schools is not even close to this.
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2011
- Messages
- 8,873
- Reaction score
- 11,315
I will say I agree on the first paragraph.
However, as an allopathic medical student, I think you're going a bit overboard on the second (bolded) paragraph. Maybe not in terms of the pre-clinical stuff like MCAT and GPA (even though none of that stuff matters once you get into medical school), but there are definitely DOs that do all of the stuff after medical school that you've described (research, innovation, work ethic, etc.)
A residency program that a friend of mine goes to (gen surg) has recruited extensively from foreign medical schools and balanced it with US grads. He's found that their foreign grads are awesome (2 of their chiefs this year were practicing surgery attendings overseas before they came over and completed a US residency, one for several years) and do a lot to encourage the education of their US grads.
