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What does it really mean to be a DO?

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by kittywampus, Aug 2, 2011.

  1. kittywampus

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    I've been trying and trying to come to a good conclusion for my own understanding of this profession. I've read A.T. Still's work and many, many, many.... articles on here and other sources about osteopathic medicine. But I'm just not convinced that this field really is much different than allopathic medicine, except for OMT. But OMT just seems like its an elective that DO's have to take during med school that MD's don't. Some DO's don't even use this in their medical practice. And how on earth is OMT any different than the manual therapy that physical therapists do? Plus, PT's have doctorates now.....

    As far as the whole “holistic approach” goes, is this something that is “taught” in DO school that isn’t taught in MD school? Are there not MD’s who might want to use a holistic approach towards their patients? Some DO’s and MD’s alike probably want to further the knowledge of medicine and the treatment of disease by researching new methods that may prove useful (or prove not to be, as that also furthers our knowledge).

    And lastly, I had to quote this. The guy who is pretending to be AT Still said this below as the, and I quote him, #1!!!! Reason for applying to DO school:

    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=5002657&postcount=9

    “1. Cant get into MD school. Sounds weird, but its true. Most DO students applied to and were rejected from the MD school application process.”


    Ok, so does this mean I should just tell the DO school admissions committee’s the truth, that I want to apply to DO school because I really want to be a doctor and don’t care if I’m a DO or an MD and will attend the best school that accepts me in a location I want to be in?
     
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  3. FrkyBgStok

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    inb4holycrapthereareacraptonofthreadsonthisfrickinsubjectandlookingatpreviousthreadsonthesametopiccouldhavegivenyouawealthofanswers.
     
  4. canadian18

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    I think that's too blunt, even though it may be true for most DO applicants. Personally, I see the medical school application process as a game. You have to play by the rules if you want to get in. And one of the unspoken rules is convey a sense of professionalism (especially during the interview) without being too blunt.
     
  5. kittywampus

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    inb4holycrapthereareacraptonofthreadsonthisfrickin subjectandlookingatpreviousthreadsonthesametopicco uldhavegivenyouawealthofanswers


    Really? Whats with not using spaces? DURT DURT DUR.....I read other threads, which I stated in the second sentence.... I was making my own to possibly discuss the matter with others (whats SDN for, if not that?)

    Just seems like a sort of "important" subject. So unless you have some information to share about your own personal thoughts on what it means to be a DO, then please, don't waste my time, yours, or anyone else's by posting nonsense.
     
  6. ozzi22

    ozzi22 it's over 9000
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    inb4MDvsDOflamewar
     
  7. kittywampus

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    I wouldn't REALLY say such a thing in an interview or on an application, i was merely being sarcastic. I was trying to make a point though, that the number one reason people apply to DO school is because they probably can get in and may not get into MD school (for whatever reason). And your exactly right about "playing by the rules." Osteopathic schools know that a large portion of the students that apply there are not applying because they believe that the philosophies of osteopathy are more geared towards them. How can it be, if allopathic and osteopathic are nearly the same, besides one extra elective in med school? Yet, DO schools are still going to want you to sell them on the idea that you truly want to be a DO and not an MD. And thus was my whole entire point in starting this thread......I want to be able to convince an admissions committee of this, and was hoping someone could help me understand a little better.


    So, if anyone is out there that want's to be a DO and not an MD, and understands what that means and can portray it in a logical way, please comment.
     
  8. A is A

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    I shadowed a D.O. for a year and a half and was impressed by the knowledge, professionalism, and the hands-on aspect of medicine (OMT). I applied to both MD and DO to maximize my chances of acceptance. When I was accepted to my school of choice, I cancelled all of my other interviews, both MD and DO. Not every OMS is a MD reject.
    Worry about what school is a fit for you, not what letters are on the degree.
     
  9. premedmind

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    What does it really mean to be a D.O.? Well it depends in what context your are asking the question.

    In medical school, there is a lot of talk about promoting osteopathic principles, using OMM, and the like.

    In the professional world, being a D.O. really means the same as being an M.D.
     
  10. PJ meowerton

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    shadow a few D.Os and ask them
     
  11. Mbeas

    Mbeas Hi I'm Kate
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    What is your point exactly?

    Legally and professionally, DO=MD. There is some variation along the road in terms of education (e.g. OMM) and residency (choose ACGME/AOA) and their are some similarities (e.g. basic science courses).
     
    #10 Mbeas, Aug 3, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2011
  12. TriagePreMed

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    Tell them all that. Please, go ahead and do it. Then come report back with the overwhelming number of acceptances that line will surely bring.
     
  13. kittywampus

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    My point exactly..... I was quoting the guy who was impersonating AT Still. How was that not clear in my original post? People must have just not read it all, just scanned through it.

    Worry about what school is a fit for you is sound advice. And for me, location has a lot to do with it as well. I was told by a osteopathic schools speaker at a Q/A session as an undergrad not to apply to osteopathic medicine because I asked him: (and I was very less informed on the subject then) "If osteopathic medical philosophy is so different than allopathic, why wouldn't allopathic doctors accept the treatment's of D.O.'s ?" He had just given a long speech about osteopathy and how they use a holistic approach and don't prescribe medicine as much and have more "alternative" methods of treatment than MD's. It almost sounded, to me, like propaganda against MD education. My point in asking that question back then was, if an alternative treatment is researched and proven to be effective, then it would be in practice for DO's and MD's alike, right?

    I view D.O. school, from as far as I can see today, (yes after shadowing DO and MD's) as just another route towards obtaining medical education, with some required electives in history and OMT that are not required at MD schools. Would I "object" to the idea of becoming a DO? No.... Did I say all people who apply to DO school are MD rejects? No.....I was quoting someone else. My thoughts though are that a lot of DO's did take that route because of greater chances of success in applying. And kudos to them....Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. So by all means, I support doing whatever it takes to become a doctor if that is what you really want to do with your life.
     
  14. Mbeas

    Mbeas Hi I'm Kate
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    Good post. I definitely didn't deduce this, though, from your original post.
     
  15. Palam

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    After shadowing two really great DO general physicians, I perceive DO's to be adamant about treating not just the injury but the entire body. I've had a bad knee for quite awhile and every MD I had ever saw said the same thing, "It's minor bruising, not much you can do". Yet the two DO's I worked with both addressed why I might be having a problem with my knee and gave me exercises to do each day.

    Not every MD is going to be apathetic and dismissive and not every DO is going to even use holistic medicine. That being said, I have always heard from friends and family that DO's are more caring and helpful. My father works at a hospital and he prefers the DO's as well.

    On paper, a DO is all about the holistic approach. At the end of the day, there isn't much of a difference. Personally, I think every doctor should look at the entire picture and be incredibly empathetic no matter what their title is.
     
  16. A is A

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    Yes, I read it and assumed (that was my mistake) it was a veiled attempt at a MD vs. DO mudslinging.
    You can apply to both MD and DO, but you have better reason than "I just wanna be a doctor." for applying to a school. They are looking for applicants that actually want to attend their school. If that school is a DO school you better have some reasons for wanting to become a DO as well.
     
  17. And I Was Like

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    Because MDs only treat the disease, right? There is no philisophical difference between MDs and DOs only significantly lower admission requirements for DO schools and lower quality AOA residencies for those who don't elect to apply/get accepted into ACGME spots.
     
  18. Mbeas

    Mbeas Hi I'm Kate
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    Oh, Jesus...

    He/she was sharing an endearing, positive experience with a DO. I see nothing in that post that remotely implies that "MD's only treat the disease". He/she is being submissive by saying that "At the end of the day, there isn't much of a difference" and that "Not every MD is going to be apathetic and dismissive and not every DO is going to even use holistic medicine".

    And yes, there is a philosophical difference, preached by the AOA, between MD's and DO's (on paper, anyways); hence, one of the reasons why there are two different degrees. Also, it is one of the reasons many osteopathic schools stress the "Why osteopathic medicine?" question during interviews. Am I saying that MD's only treat symptoms and not the patient? Absolutely not! As physicians, both MD's and DO's are equally trained to examine and treat the patient using a "holistic" approach.

    LOL at your ego boost and claims to superiority by stating the admissions standards and AOA residencies are inferior. I'm not saying what you said isn't true, but there was absolutely no reason to say it, other than to stroke your ego. Why do you feel the need to constantly berate others?

    And I thought you were here to spread "factual" knowledge? Please leave, troll.
     
  19. costales

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    This superiority/inferiority stuff is so old, and inane. Ask yourself this: Does an MD know more than a DO when they graduate from med school? **** No. I was admitted to an allo school but chose TCOM. Turned out I wasn't the only one. I'm not going to med school to get rich by doing nose jobs or selling acne cream - not interested in those specialties. Right now I'm having a blast learning and doing stuff. If you want to define your life by the letters in your degree and if you think those letters will get you a better car, hey, go for it. Nobody in your clinic or hospital will care whether you're a DO or an MD - all they care about is your medical license and certification.
     
  20. And I Was Like

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    I'm calling bull**** on this, unless you stayed for familial or other extenuating circumstances. Also, anecdotal evidence is worthless. Also, MD schools are medical schools not "allopathic" programs. That word was originally intended to be an insult, it's no more correct then calling an osteopathic physician an "osteopath".

    @MBeas

    The only people trying an ego boost are those tho claim DOs provide something that MDs don't or can't. Also, to back up my previous claims I'm copying the following form a previous thread.

    O schools are MD schools have a very significant different in admission standards with over .2 gpa difference (Including the grade replacement) and over 4 points MCAT difference.

    MD:

    Average MCAT: 31.1

    Average GPA:
    3.61 Science
    3.75 Non-Science
    3.67 Mean

    https://www.aamc.org/download/161690...10-web.pdf.pdf

    DO:

    Average MCAT: 26.5 (I rounded up)


    Average GPA:
    3.57 Non-science
    3.36 Science
    3.47 Mean

    http://www.aacom.org/resources/books...2cib-whole.pdf

    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=840549&page=4

    The links here work in the tread just find my post.

    Note that these numbers have the grade replacement, thus the actual GPAs are likely lower. But the extent can't be reliably predicted, and any suggestions would be pure speculation as the AOA refuses to release such data.
     
  21. Mbeas

    Mbeas Hi I'm Kate
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    I don't even know why you responded. I didn't argue anything at all about admission standards. In fact, I admitted that the standards were lower and that AOA residencies aren't up to par with ACGME residencies. Why don't you actually read my post before responding with meaningless data? Being a medical student, I hold you to higher standards and expect you have a decent level of reading comprehension.

    As for the ego boost, nobody said that DO's offer anything that MD's can't offer. One person mentioned ONE special experience. No need to generalize their experience over the entire profession.

    I think you just argue for the sake of aruguing. Get a life.
     
    #20 Mbeas, Aug 7, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2011
  22. TriagePreMed

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    Clearly this guy is right. We live in a world that's black and white. There's no reason anyone would choose a D.O. program over any M.D. :rolleyes:
     
  23. patel2

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    dude get a life lol
     
  24. costales

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    Yep, location and family. For what I want to do, I'm going to know as much as an MD when I graduate, and I'm going to do the same thing as an MD. So it's the old Coke vs. Pepsi, Anglican vs. Catholic debate.

    Hospital admins don't care, sick people don't care. Medicine should be about treating patients - not degree worship.

    BTW, about those statistics: Our FM chair at TCOM is a DO who graduated summa cum laude in biology from Temple (maybe somebody needs to investigate as to why he couldn't get in an MD school? LOL)
     
  25. lkthlttr

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    Plus, the cost at TCOM is actually an advantage compared to some MD schools as opposed to the other way around, which is the typical case, correct?
     
  26. costales

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    Yeah, I forgot - I couldn't resist a bargain :)
     
  27. DrWily

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    TCOM's tuition is ridiculous, in a good way.

    I wish I lived in Texas :(
     
  28. MSU2009

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    $6500/yr tuition :wow:
     
  29. vega07

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    WTF? seriously? I wish I had applied. OMG.


    OMG. :eek:
     
  30. Drrrrrr. Celty

    Drrrrrr. Celty Osteo Dullahan
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    Only on SDN do a bunch of liberal intellectuals wish they lived in Texas. It's rather funny... But yah, I'd love to live in Texas.
     
  31. Cooperd0g

    Cooperd0g Something witty goes here.
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    Legally and professionally DO=MD in the States, but there are more limitations on a DO in foreign countries than an MD. It just isn't as internationally recognized. But that only matters if you plan on going overseas either part time or full time.

    Cost is also a factor for some people. Not everyone wants to be a research extraordinaire working towards dean of a top 10 MD school. Some people just want to treat patients. There are many reasons that cost becomes an issue. Less debt, or better yet, no debt, allows for greater freedom. From my limited research several DO schools are just as expensive as MD school, but there aren't many "in-state" state DO schools so MD may be cheaper. I plan on using the GI Bill to pay for as much of medical school as possible. There are virtually no DO schools (MSU, but I'm not in state and I didn't take biochem) that participate in the GI Bill Yellow Ribbon scholarship matching program. Based on that Arizona would be virtually free for me whereas AT Still just a few miles away would be $35k in loans after my GI Bill.

    Overall I think I mesh better with the holistic approach philosophy of DO than MD, but as others have said it is up to the individual to put it into practice. Right now I'm heavily leaning towards opening up a rural FM practice where I can fly my own plane to the smaller surrounding communities to expand coverage. I'm going to the least expensive school I get accepted at, MD or DO.
     
  32. ILikeDrugs

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    Tell them that you were a slacker in college and heard that DO is medical school for former/current slackers that didn't want to go to Ross or St. George.
     
  33. Mbeas

    Mbeas Hi I'm Kate
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    Limitations, yes; but barely. Not saying you, but some people use this as an argument to go to the Caribs. It doesn't really hold up when you see the actual data.
     
  34. Mbeas

    Mbeas Hi I'm Kate
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    :thumbup:

    This will open up spots for me.
     
  35. TriagePreMed

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    Not only doesn't it hold water, but the Caribbean MD actually has LESS international rights than D.O. degrees.
     
  36. JamesLMT

    JamesLMT Accidentally Accepted
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    Sometimes I questions why I come back to SDN...

    MD=DO. The "whole person" approach is school and person specific. Meaning that some MD schools might have a better *GASP* "whole person" approach then some DO schools depending on the program/campus/etc. So scratch that. (through the president of my school is all about Humanism, so we can't be beat there. :) ) DO's learn OMM, a little tool to have in the tool bag, it's fun, interesting, and useful.

    I find it funny people are throwing up MCAT and GPA's... when you get in, you know what? None of that matters... Some 26MCAT 3.3GPA DO students take the USMLE and do BETTER then some of the 32MCAT 3.8GPA MD's even though their application stats were lower...How does that happen? Because our undergrad education does NOT label us forever. So please, stop with these stats.

    People grow, mature, and blossom throughout life. DO and MD go through the same training in sciences, patient interaction, rotations, etc. (not taking into account the differences in different schools)

    Oh, and that whole MD has more leverage in other countries, it's true, but you know why? It's because the DO degree hasn't been around as long as the MD degree. If you keep track of which countries accept the degree for full practice rights, you see it is slowly growing over the years. If there is a strong push by DO's to work in a certain country, the higher powers that be can and will lobby that country and go through all the hoops to give DO's full practice rights. It's been happening for awhile now.

    Now that I got all the nonsense out of the way. Choose your school on its cirriculum, its location, its professors, its match lists, its board pass rates, its geographical location, its tuition (this is kinda a big one for alot of people), its primary mission statement, if your friends are going to the same school, how you feel about the interview, if you want OMM as part of your medical education, etc.
     
  37. cliquesh

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    Agreed.
     
  38. And I Was Like

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    lol, I take one week off and look what I get, venom! Anyway, it didn't take near as much time as you think it took me. All I did was copy and paste 2 sources, I think it took me 2-3 minutes total max.

    All I'm saying is there is no difference in approach between DOs and MDs. DO is simply a back-up for those who are unable to get into MD schools. Are there exceptions? Absolutely, but they're few and far between. I never said MD > DO or anything like that. I'm simply restating facts. You guys are twisting my words.

    Anyway, I have to get back to studying see ya next week!
     
  39. costales

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    Give that God complex a rest. It will do wonders for your career.
     
  40. patel2

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    lol you come into every thread like this to remind people of the differences in MCAT and GPA averages and admission standards, and then act confused that people are irked when you are "simply restating the facts and truth."

    It would sort of be like a cocky Hopkins student posting in the Albany Med School thread and being confused as to why Albany students are offended. Would a post like this rub you the wrong way?

    "All I'm saying is there is no difference in approach between Hopkins and Albany. Albany is simply a back-up for those who are unable to get into better MD schools. Are there exceptions? Absolutely, but they're few and far between. I never said Hopkins>Albany or anything like that. I'm simply restating facts. You guys are twisting my words."
     
  41. And I Was Like

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    You're implying there is no difference between MD and DO degrees, when in reality residency opportunities for competitive specialities MDs are much harder to get as a DO. Not to mention the fact that MD residencies are superior to DO residencies as InstateWaiter has stated in previous threads and I need not repeat his reasoning.

    I won't say whether or not there's a difference in quality in education between DO and MD.

    Albany and Hopkins are both MD schools so your point is moot. And no, the US MD school I attend is insulted sometimes on these forums and I take no personal offense to it, they're simply stating facts. I'm extremely happy to be going to my program and acknowledge there are some faults, but that's something I'm striving to correct - instead of flat out denying they exist.
     
  42. patel2

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    Nothing in my post at all implies there is not a difference between the DO and MD degrees or between residencies. I'm not sure how you deduced that.

    It was more of a comment about your post content (i.e. GPA/MCAT charts) generally being irrelevant to the topic at hand
     
  43. JamesLMT

    JamesLMT Accidentally Accepted
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    You are stating an absolute statement " DO is simply a back-up for those who are unable to get into MD schools"

    Then you state that there are "exceptions" which, by definition, nullifies your absolute statement.

    This is an example of a true statement. "sometimes applicants who fail to gain acceptance into MD school go to DO school."

    Sir/Madam, go back to your studying and stop spitting your non-factual information on these forums. Thanks.
     
    #42 JamesLMT, Aug 13, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  44. TriagePreMed

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    Do MANY students use it as a backup? Yes. Do MOST students use it as a backup? Maybe. Do ALL students use it as a backup? No. Now what's the point of this? Think DO's don't know this? And if you honestly believe it doesn't make DOs inferior doctors, why keep pushing this every thread you go?
     
  45. JamesLMT

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    What is your point for your first statement? There is no difference in what you learn (besides OMM) which is what the point was. Also, it is harder to get an MD residency as a DO but by your flawed logic you could say it is impossible to get a DO residency as an MD.... Stupid logic right?

    By the way, when you state "facts" you should state your references... because the "facts" you are stating are opinions and the last time I checked opinions are not facts.

    It's not what you're saying that urks me. It's how you are trying to deliver it.
     
  46. costales

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    Well, it's not everyday that somebody deigns to come down from the mountain top with statistics to put DOs in their place. Geeez. (And they're not even a doctor yet).
     
  47. komikos

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    they both are physicians
     
  48. And I Was Like

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    Writing this from my phone so sorry if there's typos.

    I never said it's impossible to get a competitive residency as a DO, I just said it's significantly easier to get them as an MD. As to who is the "better doctor" it largely varies by the individual. I won't say who provides a better education, I will say that DOs do perform lower on average than MDs on the USMLE. Check my post-history for a link to a long debate in the past.

    As I've said a million times. I don't believe DOs are inferior to MDs. DO is simply a back-up for a vast majority of people. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this, although I do realize this hurts egos. But if your going into medicine for ego you're doing it wrong.

    Instatewaiter has spoken numerous times about the differences between MD and DO residencies, I won't go into this. It involves the hospitals that each respective "field" is hooked up with. IE. MGH vs. Swedish in Chicago. Or UMich vs. Botsford in Michigan. Academic Hospitals vs. Community Hospitals.

    Anyway, I'm very sorry I hurt some of your feelings. It is sincerely not my intention. But obviously, anyone who something that isn't lovey-dovey towards DOs has a godcomplex/trolling/no life/ego problem... amirite?
     
  49. lkthlttr

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    I just wonder why you keep coming back to make these statements. What if you just create a thread saying "And I Was Like wants you to know that DOs have inferior MCAT and GPA numbers and then on average score lower on the USMLE and tend to not get into the more competitive specialties". And then we can sticky it and you won't have to come back and post this in every thread. Good?
     
  50. MedicineMike

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    OMG what is it with you man? I leave SDN all week and I come back tonight to see you still up to your same ****ing tricks. Im almost certain you just wait around for a thread that you can tell people about how "MDs have higher stats than DO" and start an argument towards it. This is like the 10th thread Ive seen you say the same things. Get a ****ing life kid. Go talk to a girl (in person) or something...
     
  51. And I Was Like

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    Why you mad tho?

    I love the last line of this post, I think it says it all. :D Have a good night!
     

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