What does it take for DO schools to eliminate something from their OMM curricula

[Textbookversion]

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This thread blows my mind. It just shows the vast number of people who have no real world experience. If you want to go into surgery, do you guys scream about dropping part of the curriculum during a renal class? if you want to go into pathology, do you lobby against anatomy? you guys need to wake up and realize that you may have to learn stuff you disagree with. guess what. it isn't going to end in med school. you went to a DO school. you knew what you were getting into. if you don't like it that much, drop out and try to get into an MD school. if you don't want to do that, chalk it up as something you will never use, takes 2-3 hours out of your week, and move on. as long as people believe in cranial, and there are a ton of people, and as long as you still get anecdotes about cranial working, it is still going to be there. you aren't doing your patients a disservice by not using it and you aren't destroying science by learning it. go through the motions, grit your teeth, and stop complaining about something you aren't going to do anything about. and understand that some of your peers believe in OMM.

i just don't get why the hell people care about what other people do. if it works for patients and a physician wants to utilize it, what the hell does it matter what you think about it? you are at a DO school and they teach it. why are you looking for sympathy? what are you expecting from the school and profession? it's like going to a podiatry school and bitching because they focus too much on feet, or a dental school and complaining that you never learn anything outside of the mouth. spoiler alert- DO school teaches OMM.

Another poster that fails at reading comprehension. My question was what is OMM and how does the community delineate what is and isn't OMM.

Beyond that the parallels you draw are silly, because no one should use something so divorced from science and reality. At least someone should use the information in the classes you identify, and in particular the specialties you identified use the information you identified. Pathologists need to know their anatomy, and surgeons need to know renal. Gratz on no real world experience yourself?

 

[FrkyBgStok]

That said, it works the other way too.

I've heard people gripe about having to learn drugs "because they're only going to do OMM/NMM."

tl;dr - people complain

And I would say the same thing to them. You are going to a school where you learn to prescribe medicine so stop whining.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Another poster that fails at reading comprehension. My question was what is OMM and how does the community delineate what is and isn't OMM.

Beyond that the parallels you draw are silly, because no one should use something so divorced from science and reality. At least someone should use the information in the classes you identify, and in particular the specialties you identified use the information you identified. Pathologists need to know their anatomy, and surgeons need to know renal. Gratz on no real world experience yourself?

Yeah I have no concern in arguing with you because it is a waste of my time. I don't really care what you think and am not concerned with what you think you know. The AOA has been around for a century and you have been in osteopathic medicine for a ridiculously small amount of time, so clearly they should listen to you on what curriculum is best.

 

[Textbookversion]

Yeah I have no concern in arguing with you because it is a waste of my time. I don't really care what you think and am not concerned with what you think you know. The AOA has been around for a century and you have been in osteopathic medicine for a ridiculously small amount of time, so clearly they should listen to you on what curriculum is best.

I'm not a DO. thx for dodging question again.

 

[acesup123]

That said, it works the other way too.

I've heard people gripe about having to learn drugs "because they're only going to do OMM/NMM."

tl;dr - people complain

If they only wanted to do OMM they should have just went to chiropractic school.

 

[Dharma]

If they only wanted to do OMM they should have just went to chiropractic school.

^ comment after you've taken some OMM classes. That said, I know a few attendings who practice MOSTLY OMM in a primary care setting, but still need to have the clinical aptitude and solid foundation in pathophysiology to be able to recognize when other modalities of treatment or referrals are in order to provide the patient what he/she needs. In fact, a few completed ACGME residencies in their fields. When asked about the reasoning for pursuing training outside of OMM (when he knew this would be his focus) one doc responded that he wanted to be able to properly treat any patient who walked through his doors (i.e. when said patient needs medication), or have the ability to recognize and understand those situations that require a referral or immediate emergency attention. He claims that more than 75% of his patients are treated with OMM alone.

So, no... even an individual wishes to practice mostly (or all) OMM, he or she should not just go to chiropractic school. The goal is to become a well-rounded, well-trained physician who is equipped to make informed decisions for the sake of his patients' well-being.

 

[Dharma]

This thread blows my mind. It just shows the vast number of people who have no real world experience. If you want to go into surgery, do you guys scream about dropping part of the curriculum during a renal class? if you want to go into pathology, do you lobby against anatomy? you guys need to wake up and realize that you may have to learn stuff you disagree with. guess what. it isn't going to end in med school. you went to a DO school. you knew what you were getting into. if you don't like it that much, drop out and try to get into an MD school. if you don't want to do that, chalk it up as something you will never use, takes 2-3 hours out of your week, and move on. as long as people believe in cranial, and there are a ton of people, and as long as you still get anecdotes about cranial working, it is still going to be there. you aren't doing your patients a disservice by not using it and you aren't destroying science by learning it. go through the motions, grit your teeth, and stop complaining about something you aren't going to do anything about. and understand that some of your peers believe in OMM.

i just don't get why the hell people care about what other people do. if it works for patients and a physician wants to utilize it, what the hell does it matter what you think about it? you are at a DO school and they teach it. why are you looking for sympathy? what are you expecting from the school and profession? it's like going to a podiatry school and bitching because they focus too much on feet, or a dental school and complaining that you never learn anything outside of the mouth. spoiler alert- DO school teaches OMM.

👍 yep!

 

[munchymanRX]

If they only wanted to do OMM they should have just went to chiropractic school.

Fun fact: The PTs at our school cover what were learning in OMM (minus cranial) plus a lot of extra techniques and time spent training. Many of our OMM faculty are PTs.

based on the training at our school, there's absolutely no way I'd feel comfortable enough with OMM to suggest it as a treatment later in my career-especially not if there's an entire profession out there that does pretty much the same thing presumably more competently.

 

[acesup123]

^ comment after you've taken some OMM classes. That said, I know a few attendings who practice MOSTLY OMM in a primary care setting, but still need to have the clinical aptitude and solid foundation in pathophysiology to be able to recognize when other modalities of treatment or referrals are in order to provide the patient what he/she needs. In fact, a few completed ACGME residencies in their fields. When asked about the reasoning for pursuing training outside of OMM (when he knew this would be his focus) one doc responded that he wanted to be able to properly treat any patient who walked through his doors (i.e. when said patient needs medication), or have the ability to recognize and understand those situations that require a referral or immediate emergency attention. He claims that more than 75% of his patients are treated with OMM alone.

So, no... even an individual wishes to practice mostly (or all) OMM, he or she should not just go to chiropractic school. The goal is to become a well-rounded, well-trained physician who is equipped to make informed decisions for the sake of his patients' well-being.

I'm at the end of my SECOND YEAR, I've basically taken all of the OMM classes required. I probably know more OMM than YOU! So I can and will comment. Spending 4 years of med school plus residency just to do OMM is a complete waste of time and money. Sure you'll be more well rounded but its overkill. If a person wanted to only do manipulation he is better off studying chiro or PT instead of doing med school plus residency.

 

[Dharma]

I'm at the end of my SECOND YEAR, I've basically taken all of the OMM classes required. I probably know more OMM than YOU! So I can and will comment. Spending 4 years of med school plus residency just to do OMM is a complete waste of time and money. Sure you'll be more well rounded but its overkill. If a person wanted to only do manipulation he is better off studying chiro or PT instead of doing med school plus residency.

Ooh, this one's feisty! Assumed you were pre-med by your status. My bad.

Regardless, you know what they say about opinions...

But as for the doc I mentioned who practices mostly OMM... 300K+ a year. Yeah, he still has to prescribe, diagnose pathology, refer, etc... but I'm not sure he'd call his education a waste.

 

[Textbookversion]

Ooh, this one's feisty! Assumed you were pre-med by your status. My bad.

Regardless, you know what they say about opinions...

But as for the doc I mentioned who practices mostly OMM... 300K+ a year. Yeah, he still has to prescribe, diagnose pathology, refer, etc... but I'm not sure he'd call his education a waste.

A waste for society. He could do the same things with 3 years of PT school and no expensive residency.

 

[Ost3oclast]

A waste for society. He could do the same things with 3 years of PT school and no expensive residency.

On a semi related note. After working years as a PT tech, it seems that OMM is utilized a lot by physical therapists. I never realized this until I saw techniques demonstrated at interviews that the PT I used to work for utilized all the time.

 

[Dharma]

A waste for society. He could do the same things with 3 years of PT school and no expensive residency.

A waste for society? That's a crock. No offense. The guy is a solid all around physician.

To each his own opinion though.

 

[acesup123]

Ooh, this one's feisty! Assumed you were pre-med by your status. My bad.

Regardless, you know what they say about opinions...

But as for the doc I mentioned who practices mostly OMM... 300K+ a year. Yeah, he still has to prescribe, diagnose pathology, refer, etc... but I'm not sure he'd call his education a waste.

That's why he does OMM only -> for the $$$, he found a niche cash only practice. I got no problems with him or what he does. He probably was a regular doc before who made less and got sick of dealing with insurance/medicare/medicaid and all that. It's just a roundabout way of doing things. Most DOs can't survive doing a cash only OMM practice. He's no different than a really successful chiropractor.

 

[hawkeye pierce]

By the standards being used here going to medical school is a waste since you do alot of the same things as a PA or NP.

 

[Dharma]

That's why he does OMM only -> for the $$$, he found a niche cash only practice. I got no problems with him or what he does. He probably was a regular doc before who made less and got sick of dealing with insurance/medicare/medicaid and all that. It's just a roundabout way of doing things. Most DOs can't survive doing a cash only OMM practice. He's no different than a really successful chiropractor.

Whoa whoa. Lots of assumptions being made here. Who said the guy is running a cash only practice? I also never said that he practices OMM exclusively. Many patients come to his practice without assumption of having OMM performed on them; in fact many never even heard of OMM before. That said, he does practice OMM on a majority of his patients. But he also serves as their primary care physician. When he needs to manage medical conditions outside the realm of OMM, he does so.

He IS a regular doc... and a complete one at that... he just happens to be pretty darn good with his OMM skills (most of which he admittedly did not learn in the redundant OPP lab but rather through continued study of anatomy and physiology and the interplay of structure and function). Dude, still takes insurance, including medicare/medicaid. He's a complete physician. Period.

 

[Dharma]

By the standards being used here going to medical school is a waste since you do alot of the same things as a PA or NP.

Seriously. Haters gonna hate.

 

[n3xa]

Erryone gettin' mad

 

[se20001984]

If they only wanted to do OMM they should have just went to chiropractic school.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THIS SHOULD BE THE AOAs new slogan

for DOs that want OMT to stay....dont give me that BS that i should have gone MD...

YOU shouldn't be in medschool...is my reply!


everyone knows its a joke...

i have no problems with keeping OMT...it should be in 1st year..and 1 year only.....so we can spend 2nd year the extra time to do well on the usmle and comlex


theres literally 8000000 procedures for **** that no one has studied...

in a couple of years we'll be seeing hand relief techniques ..im sure that will be a positive health outcome too

 

[hawkeye pierce]

Honestly, I don't understand why people who chose to go to DO schools complain that they have to learn OMT. Did they not realize that was part of the package. I like it and was interested. If I didn't want to learn it I would have went to an MD school.

 

[sylvanthus]

Honestly, I don't understand why people who chose to go to DO schools complain that they have to learn OMT. Did they not realize that was part of the package. I like it and was interested. If I didn't want to learn it I would have went to an MD school.

Is it really difficult to imagine that some went in with an open mind and then realized a lot of OMT techniques are bogus and were turned off by it?

 

[NeuroLAX]

Fun fact: The PTs at our school cover what were learning in OMM (minus cranial) plus a lot of extra techniques and time spent training. Many of our OMM faculty are PTs.

based on the training at our school, there's absolutely no way I'd feel comfortable enough with OMM to suggest it as a treatment later in my career-especially not if there's an entire profession out there that does pretty much the same thing presumably more competently.

I only know of one DPT that has taught us this year for OPP. Are there more next year? Not a concern of mine, just wondering.

 

[JGimpel]

It took a lot to stay motivated about OMM when a proctor told us that he could see the Cranial Rhythmic Impulse on the FONTANELLES of a fellow classmate from a few feet away! I use a few techniques that I actually have seen work more often than not and revisit the rest only for exams.

 

[Dr Yiot]

Is it really difficult to imagine that some went in with an open mind and then realized a lot of OMT techniques are bogus and were turned off by it?

exhibit A--------me lol

i was actually pretty excited about it. till i hated it. i was turned off pretty quick.

makes me think that i should have tried harder for md cause i also feel like I'm wasting my time on it every week which i really hate feeling that way cause at the end of the day I'm going to be a physician regardless, but thats how much i find myself disliking this stuff.

that being said, i have no problems with practitioners who use it and if it makes there patients feel better then I say GO FOR IT

however me personally, after trying it, i will never use it in the future

 

[NeuroLAX]

exhibit A--------me lol

i was actually pretty excited about it. till i hated it. i was turned off pretty quick.

makes me think that i should have tried harder for md cause i also feel like I'm wasting my time on it every week which i really hate feeling that way cause at the end of the day I'm going to be a physician regardless, but thats how much i find myself disliking this stuff.

that being said, i have no problems with practitioners who use it and if it makes there patients feel better then I say GO FOR IT

however me personally, after trying it, i will never use it in the future

Is it more of a global hatred, or are there just certain areas you feel are less effective than others?

 

[Dr Yiot]

Is it more of a global hatred, or are there just certain areas you feel are less effective than others?

i don't wanna offend anyone on the forums, this is my opinion and I'm sure people feel differently but its a global hatred cause i think its all ineffective. its not real. what your supposed to be feeling is made up half the time.

that being said, if it helps patients and you wanna do it, go for it. i have absolutely nothing against it. i just feel it doesn't work. so I personally wont be doing it. but i know some people who will and if there patients like it and feel better than go for it. and if you want to be treated by it cause you feel better then go for it.

the whole if you have a cervical dysfunction you can fix it by fixing the sacrum, man i can go on. but it is what it is

 

[NeuroLAX]

i don't wanna offend anyone on the forums, this is my opinion and I'm sure people feel differently but its a global hatred cause i think its all ineffective. its not real. what your supposed to be feeling is made up half the time.

that being said, if it helps patients and you wanna do it, go for it. i have absolutely nothing against it. i just feel it doesn't work. so I personally wont be doing it. but i know some people who will and if there patients like it and feel better than go for it. and if you want to be treated by it cause you feel better then go for it.

the whole if you have a cervical dysfunction you can fix it by fixing the sacrum, man i can go on. but it is what it is

Gotcha. Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion. Can't dispute the fact that most people won't be using it, either.

 

[acesup123]

exhibit A--------me lol

i was actually pretty excited about it. till i hated it. i was turned off pretty quick.

makes me think that i should have tried harder for md cause i also feel like I'm wasting my time on it every week which i really hate feeling that way cause at the end of the day I'm going to be a physician regardless, but thats how much i find myself disliking this stuff.

^^What he said pretty much sums up my feelings about OMM. All of the classmates that I know feel the same way. OMM = big waste of time. But you gotta do it to to pass so everyone puts on a fake smile for the professors and act like they like it during OMM labs.

 

[hawkeye pierce]

Is it really difficult to imagine that some went in with an open mind and then realized a lot of OMT techniques are bogus and were turned off by it?

My comment was mostly that all of you signed up for it when you chose to go to DO schools. If you don't want to use it after going to a DO school fine, but you knew you were gonna have to learn it when you signed up for the DO route.

 

[DrBumblebee]

My comment was mostly that all of you signed up for it when you chose to go to DO schools. If you don't want to use it after going to a DO school fine, but you knew you were gonna have to learn it when you signed up for the DO route.

This. +1

 

[sylvanthus]

It is easy to comment and pass judgement when you haven't even started medical school yet.

 

[hawkeye pierce]

I need to update my status I'm in my second year of medical school.

 

[se20001984]

my whole point is that DO schools are no longer osteopathic,

they are medical...
everyone is in medical school..NONE of us are in osteopathic school..nonre of us are osteopaths

..for those that keep churning the same bs..y'd u do DO school...i didnt i DID MEDICAL SCHOOL

OMT has nothing to do with medical (there is 0 research) * plz dont give me jaoa articles...


the second DOs adopted a medical curriculum
the second DOs accepted the use of pharma
we have lost all traditional connection to osteopathy

....the keep adapting and adapting to survive...

its a bitter train wreck..that EVERYONE with the right mind knows..

that eventually OMT will be gone


i think the sustained effort of OMT can be seen by the last group of posters..who i believe has done 0 research in their sciences orrrrr

for some reason they feel loyalty toward it bc after all they did pay the 200K in tuition

 

[se20001984]

if you are adamant that OMT is functional..which 0 research....i think you should drop out of school

sign up for osteopathy schools..which are cheaper and are only 2 years

and you can continue to practice that

 

[Dharma]

if you are adamant that OMT is functional..which 0 research....i think you should drop out of school

sign up for osteopathy schools..which are cheaper and are only 2 years

and you can continue to practice that

My opinion is that it is a bit ignorant to completely write off all of OMT and make absolute claims about its functionality or lack thereof. There are obvious issues within the field, and I myself feel that the use of OMT is not enough to justify a separate profession (nor are claims of assuming a "holistic" approach with a patient). However, there are techniques that are effective, however few they may seem. The best approach IMO is to keep an eye mind (within reason). You never know what you may miss by shutting the doors.

 

[acesup123]

They don't need to completely get rid of OMM completely, they just need to "trim the fat." It's looking like a fat bloated pig. They can trim a good 50% of it and keep the useful stuff. I agree that it does work for back and neck pain so I wouldn't say it's completely useless. They just need to do a serious overhaul of what treatments are useful and what treatments are not.

 

[Dharma]

They don't need to completely get rid of OMM completely, they just need to "trim the fat." It's looking like a fat bloated pig. They can trim a good 50% of it and keep the useful stuff. I agree that it does work for back and neck pain so I wouldn't say it's completely useless. They just need to do a serious overhaul of what treatments are useful and what treatments are not.

👍 most definitely.

 

[Trogghunter]

I just gave soft tissue to +-65yo ICU patient for the 2nd time this week- 3 days post op 3x cabg per the surgeon's (MD) request, as most of our cabg patients get. When you get requests by docs that regularly, you have to think that something works even in a gentle technique. Just admit that you suck at OMM and that you'll be an inferior, self-hating doctor (joke). I need to start a project on these trends. The OMT--not self hating DOs(joke).

 

[MrNovember]

A lot of ebm doesn't make sense and is actually harmful. Thousands of people die due to EBM based guidelines calling for tests and procedures that will not help them. No one actually dies from cranial or a pedal pump. EBM says getting routine stress tests in asymptomatic patients and taking err-body with hx of cad into the cath lab when they eat too many burritos is standard of care. So someone comes in with uncomplicated headaches for two weeks..are you going to send them for MRI? You might, but you shouldnt get scans haphazardly because you're going to cause more harm than good. I digress. Do no harm. People suffer-theyre not just paragraphs in M&M. Youre an osteopath- if you don't use cranial then fine, but a lot of people that are much more intelligent than you and have much more experience in medicine find it to be effective enough to put their reputations and careers on the line to use it, so don't knock it till you get out of preclinical and try it. That's my $.02

WTF is this?

 

[Textbookversion]

I just gave soft tissue to +-65yo ICU patient for the 2nd time this week- 3 days post op 3x cabg per the surgeon's (MD) request, as most of our cabg patients get. When you get requests by docs that regularly, you have to think that something works even in a gentle technique. Just admit that you suck at OMM and that you'll be an inferior, self-hating doctor (joke). I need to start a project on these trends. The OMT--not self hating DOs(joke).

How many times do I have to say THIS THREAD IS ABOUT CRANIAL I could care less about everything else you do.

 

[Dr Yiot]

there does need to be a big overhaul.

and we need to cut down the amount of time for lab and lecture, which is possible if we cut out the BS stuff.

 

[Siggy]

How many times do I have to say THIS THREAD IS ABOUT CRANIAL I could care less about everything else you do.

One technique works... therefore it all works... therefore your argument is invalid.

/thread
/sarcasm.

 

[docnotsopc]

exhibit A--------me lol

i was actually pretty excited about it. till i hated it. i was turned off pretty quick.

makes me think that i should have tried harder for md cause i also feel like I'm wasting my time on it every week which i really hate feeling that way cause at the end of the day I'm going to be a physician regardless, but thats how much i find myself disliking this stuff.

that being said, i have no problems with practitioners who use it and if it makes there patients feel better then I say GO FOR IT

however me personally, after trying it, i will never use it in the future

I came in with an open mind. I thought I was going to love OMM. I loved the idea of it before med school. As people have suggested, its a huge waste of time and can be taught in 1/4 of the time. What makes it even worse is that OMM professors push too hard to convince us how amazing it is. In early first year, I was all ears because we learned about how certain techniques would help with musculoskeletal injuries. Logically, this made sense. But than it went downhill. Started with Lymphatics.......than into the systems.....and how OMM can apparently fix pneumonia, cardiovascular problems..... autoimmune diseases etc. It just turned into too much bs too quickly.

^^What he said pretty much sums up my feelings about OMM. All of the classmates that I know feel the same way. OMM = big waste of time. But you gotta do it to to pass so everyone puts on a fake smile for the professors and act like they like it during OMM labs.

👍

This. +1

Standard pre-med comment. Shadowed a DO," knows everything about OMM without knowing any medicine yet"

 

[NeuroLAX]

if you are adamant that OMT is functional..which 0 research....i think you should drop out of school

sign up for osteopathy schools..which are cheaper and are only 2 years

and you can continue to practice that

Why don't you try writing...

in complete sentences instead of

breaking thoughts up into separate

lines...

...

Go look up the research...

yourself.

There are plenty of non-AOA journals to read...