What does it take to be a surgeon?

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superdoc2.0

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If I my motor skills are not exceptional can I still become a surgeon?

Are all surgeon specialties competitive?

What does it take to get into surgeon specialties?

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I don't know the answer to your question but I have to ask. . .

If your motor skills are poor, I am going to assume you don't enjoy working with your hands. You either don't have hobbies that involve mechanical work, or you have some limiting factor that prevents you from doing so.

If this is the case, why would you want to go into surgery?
 
I don't know the answer to your question but I have to ask. . .

If your motor skills are poor, I am going to assume you don't enjoy working with your hands. You either don't have hobbies that involve mechanical work, or you have some limiting factor that prevents you from doing so.

If this is the case, why would you want to go into surgery?
It isn't that I have poor motor skills or don't enjoy working with my hands, I just don't think I have extremely exceptional motor skills. I read somewhere that neurosurgeons are born, not made. That makes a lot of sense for neurosurgery, but I was wondering about surgery in general.
 
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It isn't that I have poor motor skills or don't enjoy working with my hands, I just don't think I have extremely exceptional motor skills. I read somewhere that neurosurgeons are born, not made. That makes a lot of sense for neurosurgery, but I was wondering about surgery in general.
lol no. Obviously there are certain inborn traits that might make someone more apt to NS such as high intelligence but that applies to any applied science, such as medicine. The vast majority of our behaviors are learned and exceptional fine motor skills can certainly be taught - and they are - because they improve with practice.
 
lol no. Obviously there are certain inborn traits that might make someone more apt to NS such as high intelligence but that applies to any applied science, such as medicine. The vast majority of our behaviors are learned and exceptional fine motor skills can certainly be taught - and they are - because they improve with practice.
Michael Jordan's basketball skills improved with practice, but that doesn't mean I could ever have MJ's bb skills.
 
apples and oranges mate
Not really. Although the Michael Jordan analogy is far more complex, it makes the point that not everyone is capable of physical feats performed by the top end of the bell curve. Some people will have better motor skills than others, even with enormous amounts of practice. Although in this circumstance you very well be right. Are you a surgeon? Or know anyone who is? Or is this just your opinion?
 
With that attitude, no.
Humans are capable of amazing feats, many far greater than we have ever imagined. I am with you on that, but dude I ain't ever going to have MJ's skills. I don't have the required genetics.

"Positive thinking won't let you do anything. But it will let you do everything better than negative thinking will."
Zig Ziglar
 
Not really. Although the Michael Jordan analogy is far more complex, it makes the point that not everyone is capable of physical feats performed by the top end of the bell curve. Some people will have better motor skills than others, even with enormous amounts of practice. Although in this circumstance you very well be right. Are you a surgeon? Or know anyone who is? Or is this just your opinion?

That is a piss poor attitude. You are comparing the best player ever to play basketball to becoming a neurosurgeon. Do you want to be a neurosurgeon or the best neurosurgeon that has ever lived? Because the latter requires luck, exceptional talent, incredible work ethic, and passion. You might not become the best ever, but you can certainly become a neurosurgeon. There are tens of thousands of neurosurgeons in the world, there will only be 1 Michael Jordan, ever.
 
It may not matter, but if they can train someone who can't fold shirts right to preform microsurgery on mice without significant issue then chances are motor skills are pretty malleable.

On the topic, microsurgery taught me that I'd rather not be a surgeon. It's exhausting with a mouse, I imagine doctors are drenched in sweat half the time.
 
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Not really. Although the Michael Jordan analogy is far more complex, it makes the point that not everyone is capable of physical feats performed by the top end of the bell curve. Some people will have better motor skills than others, even with enormous amounts of practice. Although in this circumstance you very well be right. Are you a surgeon? Or know anyone who is? Or is this just your opinion?
This is information I'm sharing that come to me from somewhere on SDN. There are a few threads just like this in the archives, many of which discuss the "hand/eye coordination" thing that people seem to think is so important and elusive. We are talking about fine motor skills, which are generally within the ability of most normally functioning humans and are reliant upon practice as they deteriorate with disuse. There is a huge variance in athletic ability within the population, especially the kind that allows someone to perform like a professional athlete, whereas I'd wager good motor skills are much more common.
 
That is a piss poor attitude. You are comparing the best player ever to play basketball to becoming a neurosurgeon. Do you want to be a neurosurgeon or the best neurosurgeon that has ever lived? Because the latter requires luck, exceptional talent, incredible work ethic, and passion. You might not become the best ever, but you can certainly become a neurosurgeon. There are tens of thousands of neurosurgeons in the world, there will only be 1 Michael Jordan, ever.
Sure the analogy is not perfect, but you are missing the forest for the trees, I did not say that the MJ analogy was correct for neurosurgeons, just that some people are not capable of all physical feats others are capable of. I don't know anything about neurosurgery or surgery in general, I am here asking questions.
 
The difference between a good surgeon and a great surgeon is the ability to handle a "routine" surgery when the patient goes south and it becomes a challenging emergency. Has nothing to do with your ability to sew and and everything to do with having the knowledge and skill to know what to do when the patient crashes.
 
To specialize in surgery is very, very difficult as a DO, aside from ortho (still very difficult to get into). General surgery is definitely achievable as a DO.
 
To specialize in surgery is very, very difficult as a DO, aside from ortho (still very difficult to get into). General surgery is definitely achievable as a DO.
10 general surgeons, 5 ortho, and 2 neurosurgeons in my medical school class. General surgery is NOT that difficult to get into as a DO. It's not that rare.
 
10 general surgeons, 5 ortho, and 2 neurosurgeons in my medical school class. General surgery is NOT that difficult to get into as a DO. It's not that rare.
I said gen surg is very achievable as a DO, and said ortho is definitely possible. Neurosurg is very difficult, you can really only get AOA positions as a DO (same for ortho, only there are a ton of DO ortho spots compared to any other surgical specialty).
 
It isn't that I have poor motor skills or don't enjoy working with my hands, I just don't think I have extremely exceptional motor skills. I read somewhere that neurosurgeons are born, not made. That makes a lot of sense for neurosurgery, but I was wondering about surgery in general.
Probably not due to dexterity but their ability to put up with this for so many years while being underpaid and working 100 hours weekly.
 
I said gen surg is very achievable as a DO, and said ortho is definitely possible. Neurosurg is very difficult, you can really only get AOA positions as a DO (same for ortho, only there are a ton of DO ortho spots compared to any other surgical specialty).
How come your states says premed? There is nothing wrong with an AOA residency.
 
Count your sponges. Don't leave them stuck in patients. I was at the receiving end of this when I had appendectomy, only to get even worse pain and have another surgery to remove a sponge from the side of my large intestine months later. Not fun. 🙁
 
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What does it take to be a surgeon:
(I havent read any of the replies, so sorry if this repeats)

1) Be able to function well with lack of sleep

2) Be able to give up your life (ie time with your kids, spouse, hobbies) for your patients and your work.

The best way to know is to shadow a surgeon for a while (on both surgery and non surgery days). I was completely gung ho about ortho until I shadowed one. The work is very cool and rewarding, but the scale is balanced way too much away from having a good life style (unless you do hand or spine ONLY). The guy I shadowed was a jack of all trades - do it all kind of dude. He basically never stopped working, because he was on partner in a clinic with like 4 other surgeons, they all shared call. He had his normal schedule, but then would (almost every weekend and evening that he was on call) have to come in to fix somebody who broke their arm, got in a car accident, etc. So imagine its Monday (your surgery day). You are already tired because you were on call on Sunday, but you still wake up at 6am monday morning. You work for 13-14 hours getting in as much surgery as you can - this is physically hard work! You are standing and running all day. You are using large tools, sometimes holding things in certain positions for 10 minutes, it is very challenging on your back, legs and feet. Your food for the day consists of a graham cracker and a coke. But now its about 7pm at night and your surgery day is done... thank God... but then you get called to fix a lady's hip at another hospital 30 minutes away. You drive over and work for several more hours.

Rinse and repeat that several times a week - on top of your regular clinic duties and paperwork. That is an actual example of one of the days I shadowed, he worked seriously like 17 hours straight on the day AFTER a day that he was already on call (I think they go like 2/3 on 2/3 off). He was co-owner of the practice and was probably a dozen years out of residency (so supposedly out of the "hard" times. He owned a second house closer to the hospital so that he didnt have the drive from his family's home when he was on call. Was the work pretty cool? Sure. Was it repetitive? Definitely - a lot more than I expected, just like how every medical specialty has some repetitive stuff in it. Did he spend a lot of time away from his wife and kids? You betcha. Was he happy about it? Hard to tell, he was pretty salty about most everything... I looked up his house on google though, sure is big and pretty. Hard to say why he needs a house that big when he only has 3 kids, but who am I to say.

Go shadow, those rose colored glasses will either come off, or it will confirm for you that you are supposed to do it. For me it 100% convinced me that I will not be going down general, ortho, or neuro surgery pathways - no amount of money on earth could get me to do it. The work is physically demanding (I had a very hard time even just standing there for 13 hours let alone actually working), the hours are brutal (the time with my wife is too important to me - you only live once), and honestly the work was just as repetitive as every other specialty I had shadowed, it honestly wasnt as unique and special as I thought it would be.
 
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What does it take to be a surgeon:
(I havent read any of the replies, so sorry if this repeats)

1) Be able to function well with lack of sleep

2) Be able to give up your life (ie time with your kids, spouse, hobbies) for your patients and your work.

The best way to know is to shadow a surgeon for a while (on both surgery and non surgery days). I was completely gung ho about ortho until I shadowed one. The work is very cool and rewarding, but the scale is balanced way too much away from having a good life style (unless you do hand or spine ONLY). The guy I shadowed was a jack of all trades - do it all kind of dude. He basically never stopped working, because he was on partner in a clinic with like 4 other surgeons, they all shared call. He had his normal schedule, but then would (almost every weekend and evening that he was on call) have to come in to fix somebody who broke their arm, got in a car accident, etc. So imagine its Monday (your surgery day). You are already tired because you were on call on Sunday, but you still wake up at 6am monday morning. You work for 13-14 hours getting in as much surgery as you can - this is physically hard work! You are standing and running all day. You are using large tools, sometimes holding things in certain positions for 10 minutes, it is very challenging on your back, legs and feet. Your food for the day consists of a graham cracker and a coke. But now its about 7pm at night and your surgery day is done... thank God... but then you get called to fix a lady's hip at another hospital 30 minutes away. You drive over and work for several more hours.

Rinse and repeat that several times a week - on top of your regular clinic duties and paperwork. That is an actual example of one of the days I shadowed, he worked seriously like 17 hours straight on the day AFTER a day that he was already on call (I think they go like 2/3 on 2/3 off). He was co-owner of the practice and was probably a dozen years out of residency (so supposedly out of the "hard" times. He owned a second house closer to the hospital so that he didnt have the drive from his family's home when he was on call. Was the work pretty cool? Sure. Was it repetitive? Definitely - a lot more than I expected, just like how every medical specialty has some repetitive stuff in it. Did he spend a lot of time away from his wife and kids? You betcha. Was he happy about it? Hard to tell, he was pretty salty about most everything... I looked up his house on google though, sure is big and pretty. Hard to say why he needs a house that big when he only has 3 kids, but who am I to say.

Go shadow, those rose colored glasses will either come off, or it will confirm for you that you are supposed to do it. For me it 100% convinced me that I will not be going down general, ortho, or neuro surgery pathways - no amount of money on earth could get me to do it. The work is physically demanding (I had a very hard time even just standing there for 13 hours let alone actually working), the hours are brutal (the time with my wife is too important to me - you only live once), and honestly the work was just as repetitive as every other specialty I had shadowed, it honestly wasnt as unique and special as I thought it would be.
Thanks for the helpful post, I was beginning to think I wasn't going to learn much from this thread. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question in a thoughtful manner.
 
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There's a surgeon I know who has SIX kids. I hope to either shadow him in the spring or have him as my research mentor for the summer, and find out how the heck he manages his time and sanity.
 
There's a surgeon I know who has SIX kids. I hope to either shadow him in the spring or have him as my research mentor for the summer, and find out how the heck he manages his time and sanity.
Another surgeon I spent some time with - a cardiothoracic dude who had like 5 or 6 kids (I cant quite remember - it was a tribe though haha). I asked him about it, and he basically said you have to get a spouse that is willing to put up with your work hours and is willing to be a stay at home parent - at least thats how he manages it. It works for him because his wife is cool with that.

I am sure there are plenty of awesome and happy surgeons, no doubt at all! Its a very cool job. But I mean if we are just looking at hours alone: they have clinic, paperwork, and long surgical days. Most other medical specialties just have clinic and paperwork - so subtract like 25 hours for 2 surgery days. The hours put into the job as a surgeon (both in and out of the hospital) is more than most other specialties.

I shadowed a peds doc for a while that worked 4 days a week and then had saturday clinic once a month and weekend call once every 6 weeks or something. Its very n=1 but he seemed a lot happier than all of the surgeons that I have spent time with. I had just finished shadowing the ortho doc for like 3 months when I started shadowing the peds doc. It was a dramatic change. The peds doc was like, "yeaa I really love my work, I feel like I am able to have a tangible difference in these kids lives, and then I am trying to make partner so that gives me something to keep working towards, and then I see my family a ton and play golf 3 or 4 times a week depending on the weather." It was night and day... Most pre-meds feel like they have to be setting bones and replacing hearts to make a difference. But this physician had personal satisfaction from teaching parents about good choices for their kids, making sure babies were where they should be at growth and health wise, and helping sick kids. You dont have to be saving the world to get gratification out of life.

The only exception that I have found in the surgeon work hours is from a general surgeon who did robotics stuff, but he only did *some* surgeries (not even enough to let me shadow), he did more administration type stuff. So he wasnt even necessarily full time, he had other duties that took up his time.

Again, no doubt that it is cool work. But having been out of school and working for a while and starting a family, you realize a job is just a job. Sure you want something that you are passionate about, called to do, and can make you happy when you have to wake up early and stay up late to do it. But in the end most people in ANY profession are just trying to put in their time, pay their bills, and then go home and spend time with their family and enjoy their hobbies. Its not that you *cant* have that kind of life in surgical fields, its just that plenty of other fields can be just as rewarding as surgery, while providing a much better work/life balance.

Again just my personal experience and my 2 cents. It is also not representative of academic surgeons, just private practice. I still strongly advocate for people to shadow for a while and see for themselves.
 
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If I my motor skills are not exceptional can I still become a surgeon?

Are all surgeon specialties competitive?

What does it take to get into surgeon specialties?

I am a PGY-3 in Vascular Surgery.

#1 Motor skills.
Your hands matter. But, you need to realize that like everything in this world, practice is everything. We all start at different levels, a lot of it is a product of how much we did with our hands as kids, a lot of people would make arguments for carpentry, video games, sports etc. At the end of the day the starting point differences are quite small relatively to the end point. The real question is how much do you love surgery? Would you put in the time to practice? Would you put in the time to learn the skills that you are sub-par in? When I left my medical school, I had the best basic surgical skills of any MS4, suturing, lines, chest tubes, running a trauma algorithm, etc. I was also by far the most active student, I practiced every weekend. I took extra shifts, etc. When I showed up in residency, my co-intern blew me out of the water. I always told people, he is just so much better than me innately, he just gets it. Then we talked about what medical school was like. He did the same thing as me, but likely 20% harder. You need to be at a place that will nurture your interests. A part of being interested in surgery is technical excellence. You need people that will walk you through things and more importantly tell you when you are screwing up and how to fix it. But, after that, it is entirely on you. If you don't enjoy developing those skills, I'm not sure why you are interested in surgery!

By the same token, you need to realize that people like to focus on the OR with surgeons. The reality is that the hardest things to learn are not in the operating room. Who needs an operation vs. who doesn't. What operation. The timing of an operation etc. THOSE are the hard things. A lot of interns get pissy that they don't have much time in the OR and we definitely push that they start to develop their OR skills early, but they, like most students need to realize that the floor, the ICU and clinic are all teaching areas as well.

#2 Competitiveness
Not all surgical specialties are considered competitive. Things like plastic surgery, ENT, integrated sub-specialties etc. can be among the most competitive specialties out there. On the other hand, general surgery (mainly because of the larger number of programs) is not nearly as competitive. There is a wide range within many surgical disciplines.

#3 What does it take to get into surgery?
Nothing different than any other specialty. Good step 1 score, good clinical grades, and a good LOR (+/- research for some sub-specialties) will get you an interview at almost anywhere. When you interview, it is all about passion. We want people excited about our field. We want people that are dedicated. I want an intern that is going to bust their ass to get their work done and join me in the OR. I want a junior resident that is going to run the floor and work tirelessly on honing their surgical craft. I want a chief who is going to run the service, manage people, and graduate aiming to make a difference in people's lives as well as our field.
 
With that attitude, no.
Cant really compare yourself to an elite athlete or a top end surgeon. To be the best or among the best, you require exceptional genetics on the whole. This is extremely true for sports where talent/genes largely dominate and hard work is a distant second.
 
Cant really compare yourself to an elite athlete or a top end surgeon. To be the best or among the best, you require exceptional genetics on the whole. This is extremely true for sports where talent/genes largely dominate and hard work is a distant second.
its-a-joke-not-a-dick.jpg
 
Is it bad that my gut response to this question is "To be an a$$hole"...

Gen surg isn't competitive... the other specialties might be...
 
If I my motor skills are not exceptional can I still become a surgeon?

Are all surgeon specialties competitive?

What does it take to get into surgeon specialties?

My motor skills suck. I'm clumsy, my hands shake like crazy when I'm stressed, and my wrists hurt after doing a repetitive task. This was one of the major reasons why I'm letting go of my childhood dream of becoming a surgeon.

Another reason why I think I'm no longer interested in pursuing surgery is my experience in gross anatomy. I realized that I didn't enjoy cutting and pealing that much. In the beginning it was a rush and I enjoyed it, but later, it got so tedious that I can't imagine myself doing that for the next 30 years. Besides, I noticed that I hated standing in one place for a prolonged period of time. Combine that with not liking to work with others in groups, I learned that I may not be cut for this specialty.

However, the main reason that is making me questioned my pursuit of surgery is the lifestyle. The first semester of med school was a very humbling experience. I felt that I have missed out on tons of things in my social life. I'm a very sociable person and enjoy spending quality time with my family and friends. Knowing the type of responsibilities and commitments that come with being a surgeon, anyone pursuing this specialty should be fully aware of the sacrifices than need to be made. I don't think I'd be welling to sacrifice my social life for my career, and, imo, this makes me a bad candidate for surgery.

With all of the things I mentioned above, I'm still keeping an open mind about any specialty. Who knows? Perhaps during my clinical rotation I may fall in love with surgery and decide that pursuing it is worth the sacrifices.

Good luck!
 
1) develop very self important attitude
2) start being jerk to all the "lesser specialties"
3) complete surgical residency to squash out any last bit of sociability you may have left
4) spend rest of days not seeing family and bitching about how little you think you get paid until you one day kick it from a massive stress induced MI while standing at the operating table
 
1) develop very self important attitude
2) start being jerk to all the "lesser specialties"
3) complete surgical residency to squash out any last bit of sociability you may have left
4) spend rest of days not seeing family and bitching about how little you think you get paid until you one day kick it from a massive stress induced MI while standing at the operating table
It is interesting to see that plastic surgeons of all people feel the most under compensated out of all the specialties.
 
To be a surgeon... I hate to break it to you... just go carib man. Ross and Saint George are where it's at! Baller match lists... all the competitive residencies you can muster to apply to and get interviews from... man.

Apply ASAP to Carib!
 
What's the difference between God & a surgeon??

God doesn't think he's a surgeon...

You won't get banned for something like that, & they warn people first 😉
 
I just now don't even think I've got incredibly extraordinary motor capabilities. I read some time that neurosurgeons are generally created.
Ip7OZO
 
Surgeons are born, not made.

Do you know how truly ridiculous that sounds?

It's not like we're talking navy seals here or something. Get into any med school, do above average, and show interest during surg rotations. Maybe write a clinical paper or two and apply surgery.

I'll give you that maybe the innate personality traits can predispose someone to surgery, but I'd pump the breaks a little. You're "made" during a 9+ year training process after undergrad...

This is coming from someone 100% committed to surgery too.
 
After working in/around surgery for a few years to me what it takes is being able to tolerate standing in the same exact room for the majority of a 10+ hour day. Then your first case for whatever reason you get an hour or two behind which delays all your other cases then when you finally get home at 8pm you get a call from the nursing staff saying they can't find the script for the pain med that the last patient is suppose to go home with. So if you don't have a resident it's back to hospital to write a script. Some people love this, I for one have no desire for it haha to each their own.
 
Reading all of this makes me rethink about going into surgery (I like it but don't think the lifestyle would be for me), but I just got reminded of how much silly **** I do could possibly prep me for the motor skills needed for surgery, like I used to work in retail so being on my feet for 12-18 hours in a weekend is nothing, and I do henna on myself and I paint my own nails (with those little designs), and since I got bored just doing it with my right dominant hand I taught myself to do it with my left hand too lol. does that count as the motor skills needed? Idk
 
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