What does it take to enter a good PsyD program?

[NeuroDroid]

I can't seem to find any stats on students that have been accepted to good PsyD programs like Rutgers or FIT or others with high APA internship placements. What do these programs look for? What is considered competitive?

I know PhD programs are extremely competitive and I know I, unfortunately, have no chance of entering one due to my lack of research. I'd like to know how I compare to people who have been accepted but can't find any data on them.

For background, I'm a bit of a career changer. I studied Psychology in college and graduated with a 3.77. I also took my medical school pre-requisites and finished with a 4.0 in all my science courses. I always struggled between choosing Clinical Psychology or Medicine (I genuinely love both equally) but I've also always been intimidated by the sacrifice medicine entails and ultimately decided that a life inside a hospital working 80hrs+ is not for me. Life took a weird turn for me after college. A cat 5 hurricane hit where I live and pretty much devastated everything. I lost my apartment. I ended up getting a job as an office administrator right after that hurricane and before I knew it, three years passed. (Stay in school, kids, don't get a job)

So here I am, thirty years old with no research experience. I did present research in my fourth year of college (5 years ago now ) but it was just for my research methods class. I've messaged just about every lab that's around me and I get no responses or they have no space for me. I'm feeling extremely disheartened.

I'd also be interested in how difficult it is to enter a master's program that would help me get licensed as a therapist. I'd much rather be a psychologist but if I have no other choice then I'll go the master's route. (Assuming it's a bit easier to enter)

For what it's worth, I'm hispanic/speak spanish if that'll give me any edge.

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[summerbabe]

good PsyD programs like Rutgers

For fully funded programs like Rutgers and Baylor, the admission standards are as high if not higher than your standard funded PhD. I think the Insider Guide to Psychology Grad Programs has objective stats listed for every doctorate program and your local library might have an older copy. And I'm sure there are pdfs floating around online.

Without any research experience, unfortunately you aren't differentiated from any of the tens of thousands of undergrad Psych majors who did well in college so I wouldn't recommend a program widely accepting people without the additional experiences that can prepare one to be successful in a doctorate program.

I'd also be interested in how difficult it is to enter a master's program that would help me get licensed as a therapist. I'd much rather be a psychologist but if I have no other choice then I'll go the master's route. (Assuming it's a bit easier to enter)

You have a strong GPA and especially if you have any relevant human services-related work or extracurriculars, I think you could be very competitive for terminal masters programs in social work or counseling.

You could likely also be competitive for license eligible MS programs with a research emphasis that can provide both a license (if you stop) and the potential to build your CV and apply to doctoral programs in your 2nd year.

 

[pediatric_psydoc]

I can't seem to find any stats on students that have been accepted to good PsyD programs like Rutgers or FIT or others with high APA internship placements. What do these programs look for? What is considered competitive?

I know PhD programs are extremely competitive and I know I, unfortunately, have no chance of entering one due to my lack of research. I'd like to know how I compare to people who have been accepted but can't find any data on them.

For background, I'm a bit of a career changer. I studied Psychology in college and graduated with a 3.77. I also took my medical school pre-requisites and finished with a 4.0 in all my science courses. I always struggled between choosing Clinical Psychology or Medicine (I genuinely love both equally) but I've also always been intimidated by the sacrifice medicine entails and ultimately decided that a life inside a hospital working 80hrs+ is not for me. Life took a weird turn for me after college. A cat 5 hurricane hit where I live and pretty much devastated everything. I lost my apartment. I ended up getting a job as an office administrator right after that hurricane and before I knew it, three years passed. (Stay in school, kids, don't get a job)

So here I am, thirty years old with no research experience. I did present research in my fourth year of college (5 years ago now ) but it was just for my research methods class. I've messaged just about every lab that's around me and I get no responses or they have no space for me. I'm feeling extremely disheartened.

I'd also be interested in how difficult it is to enter a master's program that would help me get licensed as a therapist. I'd much rather be a psychologist but if I have no other choice then I'll go the master's route. (Assuming it's a bit easier to enter)

For what it's worth, I'm hispanic/speak spanish if that'll give me any edge.

It seems like you have a lot of interests, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, as long as you direct them into something productive for yourself. So as you consider psychologist vs therapist for a career path, what are you wanting your day at work to be like? Those things should help you direct yourself one way or another. That seems especially important since you were initially interested in medicine until some significant aspects of job-related daily commitments made you reconsider if that was for you.

Best of luck.

 

[NeuroDroid]

For fully funded programs like Rutgers and Baylor, the admission standards are as high if not higher than your standard funded PhD. I think the Insider Guide to Psychology Grad Programs has objective stats listed for every doctorate program and your local library might have an older copy. And I'm sure there are pdfs floating around online.

Without any research experience, unfortunately you aren't differentiated from any of the tens of thousands of undergrad Psych majors who did well in college so I wouldn't recommend a program widely accepting people without the additional experiences that can prepare one to be successful in a doctorate program.

You have a strong GPA and especially if you have any relevant human services-related work or extracurriculars, I think you could be very competitive for terminal masters programs in social work or counseling.

You could likely also be competitive for license eligible MS programs with a research emphasis that can provide both a license (if you stop) and the potential to build your CV and apply to doctoral programs in your 2nd year.

Thank you, that was so helpful. I've been toying with the idea of doing a research focused MS to make myself competitive but I haven't found any that are also terminal (to get a license and practice) It seems usually it's either a terminal master's or a research one. I'll have to do some more research on it.

It seems like you have a lot of interests, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, as long as you direct them into something productive for yourself. So as you consider psychologist vs therapist for a career path, what are you wanting your day at work to be like? Those things should help you direct yourself one way or another. That seems especially important since you were initially interested in medicine until some significant aspects of job-related daily commitments made you reconsider if that was for you.

Best of luck.

Thank you very much for the advice! I definitely would like to work directly with patients in either private practice or a hospital environment. I like therapy but unfortunately have never had the opportunity to shadow a therapist (I don't think that's even possible). My initial goals when I did my bachelor's were to do a PhD in Clinical Psychology with a concentration in neuropsych and then do the post-doc. My interest was always psychology and neuroscience. I only switched to medicine because a professor encouraged it and I thought "If I'm going to study for ten years anyways...why not do medicine/ neurology or psychiatry?"

 

[futureapppsy2]

OP, I think you're the type of person who could really benefit from a research-focused masters degree to get some research experience, particularly if you can get into a partially or fully funded program.

 

[R. Matey]

If you really imagining yourself doing day-to-day clinical practice for your career, you'd be better off with a social work degree from a reputable university than a Psy.D. I'd avoid mental health counseling as they do not have as many opportunities as social workers do.

 

[Sanman]

To answer your initial question, as someone who went to one of the good fully-funded PsyD programs, absolutely the same things that it takes to get into a balanced PhD program. There is very little difference in the applicants or training in these programs. I applied and was accepted into both types of programs and chose not on the PhD/PsyD, but on stability of my funding sources. Those PhD programs that train in the clinical scientist model and are more interested in producing academic researchers are, of course, a little different. As others have said, you will need research or extensive clinical experience.

That said, why shy away from med school? Depending on where you go and the path you choose, it is not always a life inside the hospital working 80+ hours. There can be difficult rotations, for sure. However, if you are focused on living a balanced lifestyle and pick rotations and school wisely, the time commitment for med and a phd/psyd is not that different.

 

[NeuroDroid]

OP, I think you're the type of person who could really benefit from a research-focused masters degree to get some research experience, particularly if you can get into a partially or fully funded program.

Thank you so much for the advice. I've considered it! I'm going to see what options I have around me.

If you really imagining yourself doing day-to-day clinical practice for your career, you'd be better off with a social work degree from a reputable university than a Psy.D. I'd avoid mental health counseling as they do not have as many opportunities as social workers do.

Thank you! I've only recently just looked into social work. I had some misconceptions about their day to day (Like the they take children away stereotype) and I'm finding out that they're similar to mental health counselors but with more opportunities. My only preoccupation is...I've looked at curriculums for it and it all just sounds...boring. Of course I'm judging just based on course names which isn't a fair judgement but I'm wondering how good of an idea it would be to do a master's that I'd maybe not enjoy studying but would enjoy the work overall? The mental health counselor master's seem more interesting (more focus on psychopathology, cognitive/psych). But of course, I could be wrong. I'm going to visit the social work department at my uni this week and find out more about it.

 

[NeuroDroid]

To answer your initial question, as someone who went to one of the good fully-funded PsyD programs, absolutely the same things that it takes to get into a balanced PhD program. There is very little difference in the applicants or training in these programs. I applied and was accepted into both types of programs and chose not on the PhD/PsyD, but on stability of my funding sources. Those PhD programs that train in the clinical scientist model and are more interested in producing academic researchers are, of course, a little different. As others have said, you will need research or extensive clinical experience.

That said, why shy away from med school? Depending on where you go and the path you choose, it is not always a life inside the hospital working 80+ hours. There can be difficult rotations, for sure. However, if you are focused on living a balanced lifestyle and pick rotations and school wisely, the time commitment for med and a phd/psyd is not that different.

I figured they'd be just as tough to enter! I definitely have some decisions to make. May I ask how much research you had at the time of applying?

As for medicine...god, I just have such a love/hate relationship with it. In terms of years of study, yes, it takes about the same time to become a PhD (or a neuropsych which is what I'd be really interested in) as an attending but the road in medical school is brutal. I'm not trying to downplay the difficulty or rigor of the PhD but having friends in medical school, they look miserable. Their entire day consists of studying or working. Working a 36 hour+ shift only to have a day off and go back for 12hrs+ just seems...insane.

 

[Sanman]

I figured they'd be just as tough to enter! I definitely have some decisions to make. May I ask how much research you had at the time of applying?

As for medicine...god, I just have such a love/hate relationship with it. In terms of years of study, yes, it takes about the same time to become a PhD (or a neuropsych which is what I'd be really interested in) as an attending but the road in medical school is brutal. I'm not trying to downplay the difficulty or rigor of the PhD but having friends in medical school, they look miserable. Their entire day consists of studying or working. Working a 36 hour+ shift only to have a day off and go back for 12hrs+ just seems...insane.

So, I came straight out of undergrad and did not have as much experience as some people. I worked in two research labs in college. One for 2.5 years running subjects and later as lab manager. Second one, 1.5 years and an honor's thesis. I had several poster presentations, but no publications at that time. GPA was similar to yours. Nothing extraordinary, just a track record of doing the work and being interested in the field. I will tell you that my info is a bit dated as I started grad school over 15 years ago. I also did not get into any top tier PhD programs, just middle of the road ones (mostly university of some uninteresting state). I did not geographically restrict myself. I mostly applied in the Midwest and South based on fit despite being a native NYer. Most of our grads are clinicians at VA medical centers with a few academics thrown into the mix.

Regarding medical school, I have several physicians, including a recent grad/current resident in the family. It has gotten less brutal than when I was in school. If you want to do neuropsych it is the longest and most competitive path in clinical psych (this area is where I started my career). When you are done, there are likely to be fewer jobs available in any given area than in many medical specialties. You can have a very successful career as a neuropsych (just ask others on this board). However, it is nowhere near as straight forward as being a physician, IMO, and we will always get the short end of the political stick. Others may disagree. Have you considered an NP/PA program if you don't want the stress and long training period?

With regard to Social Work programs, from what others have said about them, the curriculum tends to be less focused on psychotherapy than counseling programs. However, they are much more accepted by Medicare, insurance panels, and even the VA system. You will have a much easier time finding a job.

 

[summerbabe]

Of course I'm judging just based on course names which isn't a fair judgement but I'm wondering how good of an idea it would be to do a master's that I'd maybe not enjoy studying but would enjoy the work overall?

Honestly, I thought the majority of the 'content' classes in my funded PhD were boring or to check a box. Classes like cognitive psych can have interesting points but you can also learn a lot of the more interesting content through YouTube videos or other independent means. And I loved virtually all of my liberal arts undergrad classes (including required ones) but approached grad school classes as a means to an end.

I'm not trying to downplay the difficulty or rigor of the PhD but having friends in medical school, they look miserable. Their entire day consists of studying or working. Working a 36 hour+ shift only to have a day off and go back for 12hrs+ just seems...insane.

Grad school in psych can also be pretty time consuming in its own way. I often found myself doing stuff 8am to 8pm with some breaks (classes, seeing patients, grad assistantship tasks, answering emails, lab meetings, and driving back and forth from different places) before spending nights on research, emails, and the occasional test/paper.

One major piece is that the barrier to entry to a solid funded PhD/PsyD program might be greater than med school since research experience and program fit is way less objective than GPA + core classes + GMAT score + extracurriculars. Plenty of people do well in MS programs or work as RAs and will have trouble getting in.

If you want to do neuropsych it is the longest and most competitive path in clinical psych (this area is where I started my career). When you are done, there are likely to be fewer jobs available in any given area than in many medical specialties. You can have a very successful career as a neuropsych (just ask others on this board). However, it is nowhere near as straight forward as being a physician, IMO, and we will always get the short end of the political stick.

+1000000, especially the career options part. There are also many ways to 'disqualify' yourself including factors outside of your control such as not getting enough training hours/reports before internship, matching to an internship with neuro training but not a neuro fellowship and others so every neuropsychologist to be should also have a well-defined plan B IMO.