tedd1212

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What does OMM take the place of in terms of scheduling and time as compared to an MD students schedule? Is there a subject that DO students cover to a lesser extent so that they can fit OMM into their schedules?
 

NotShorty

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Good question. I feel that it's tacked on, but nothing else is removed to compensate (at my school, IMHO).

Whether this works to the osteopathic student's advantage or disadvantage is questionable. I'd like to see what others have to say.

NS
 

docbill

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NotShorty said:
Good question. I feel that it's tacked on, but nothing else is removed to compensate (at my school, IMHO).

Whether this works to the osteopathic student's advantage or disadvantage is questionable. I'd like to see what others have to say.

NS
Little here ... little there.. is cut off.. or additional couple of hours a week are added. It really depends on which two schools you look at.

If I remember right.. ~100 hours a year are spent on OMM in the first two years only. So over 10 month of schooling, it comes to 10 hours a month or ~2.25 hours a week.

Also some allo schools require research electives... there we go.
 

Vince

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As far as the first two years (pre-clinical years) I don't think anything is taken away to make room for OMM. During 3rd year clerkships, COMP has a required 4 week OMM rotation, and we only are required to do 4 weeks of general surgery. From what I hear, most other medical schools have more than 4 weeks of surgery your 3rd year....

COMP used to only have 4 weeks of OB/GYN and 4 weeks of Peds 3rd year as well, but the schedule will change for incoming students so that they will get 6 weeks of each. I think this is for the better, but unfortunately, bye bye vacation month.
 

Elysium

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So far as I can tell, nothing is cut out from our coursework. We do have about 3 hours of OMM lab time a week, then the inevitable cramming for the practical/written (usually around 20 hours or so, depending on how complicated the techniques are. IMO, I think OMM does certainly take time away from studying for other subjects - but what to do? You're in DO school, so you have to deal.

As far as rotations, we don't have any required OMM rotation (thank the sweet baby Jesus) or anything, since once we're done 2nd year and with step 1, we are done with OMM (unless of course, you want to do residency in it or something like that).
 
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tedd1212

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thanks for the input everyone. i guess i was a little worried that with the extra workload less emphasis might be placed on pharma or surgery. it sounds like Drs are Drs and need to learn the body and how to heal it one way or another regardless of the overall approach philosophy. -t
 

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I have to agree with the above...OMM seems like it is 3 hours added to the normal medical school classes. For me I find it a break cause I can lie down during class :) I feel I had nothing taken away from me in medical stances except for probably those 3 hours of study time....which I would have blown on more sleep.
 

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Here at PCOM we have 1.5 hours of OMM Lab and about 1-2 hours of OMM Lecture a week. 2 OMM practicals per trimester and 1 OMM written test per trimester. Many times our OMM lecture will be on relevant issues MD or DO (e.g. pain, gait, muscle spasm)
I do not feel OMM is anything really extra as I believe it is an important part of our studies and could not do without it. But yeah it is a pain in the butt sometimes and people usually always end up cramming for the exams/practicals. I spend about a 0.5 hour/day on OMM reading, practicing techniques, etc.
 

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tedd1212 said:
What does OMM take the place of in terms of scheduling and time as compared to an MD students schedule? Is there a subject that DO students cover to a lesser extent so that they can fit OMM into their schedules?
OMM is just an extra 3 hours a week for us. There is nothing "cut out" from the traditional medical curriculum.

However, in our clinical skills classes and other lectures, they incorporate things learned in OMM from time to time, as it applies to the subject matter, which thus enhances learning.
 

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to disagree with the above, OMM takes the place of a portion of epidemiology and biostats when compared with MD schools. if you're planning on taking the USMLE, you'll need to study up on these. at least that's the case here at KCOM and i'm not sure that other schools have those courses in comparable depth when compared to MD institutions. DO schools do have these courses, but not they're not as thoroughly covered as allopathic schools. and from my MD friends, they do much more with biochem than we do(which is part of the explanation for the biochem-heavy USMLE).

john
 

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TCOM has the longest academic year of any of the medical schools in Texas (all the rest are allopathic). We start August 1 and finish July 1 for the first year, second year you come back August 1 and get a whopping 10 day vacation between boards and when you have to be back to do pre-clinical stuff before heading off to rotations.

So in our case, they just take away some summer vacation...
 

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Elysium said:
As far as rotations, we don't have any required OMM rotation (thank the sweet baby Jesus) or anything, since once we're done 2nd year and with step 1, we are done with OMM (unless of course, you want to do residency in it or something like that).
at kcom we have to do a rural FP rotation with some omm component, but it's not an OMM rotation (hallelujah!!). we're killed with it the first two years, i'll be very glad to let it go soon... it's useful, but overkill. learn the mechanics of it and you won't need a book to tell you the treatments... i don't know why there are so many hours here...

(ps- your signature is hilarious!!)
 

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docslytherin said:
to disagree with the above, OMM takes the place of a portion of epidemiology and biostats when compared with MD schools. if you're planning on taking the USMLE, you'll need to study up on these. at least that's the case here at KCOM and i'm not sure that other schools have those courses in comparable depth when compared to MD institutions. DO schools do have these courses, but not they're not as thoroughly covered as allopathic schools. and from my MD friends, they do much more with biochem than we do(which is part of the explanation for the biochem-heavy USMLE).

john
We take a class that is a biostats-epidemiology course. In fact, I'm in it right now. Also, our biochem class last semester was 5 credit hours.

But then again, we did have a 100% pass rate on the USMLE (and COMLEX as well.)
 

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docslytherin said:
at kcom we have to do a rural FP rotation with some omm component, but it's not an OMM rotation (hallelujah!!). we're killed with it the first two years, i'll be very glad to let it go soon... it's useful, but overkill. learn the mechanics of it and you won't need a book to tell you the treatments... i don't know why there are so many hours here...

(ps- your signature is hilarious!!)
Starting next year, our school will require a one moth pure OMM rotation during the 3rd year.

Of course we don't beat it to death in the first 2 years like KCOM. Just 3 hours a week. (1 hour lecture & 2 hours lab.)
 

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OrthoFixation said:
As an MS -0.5, it appears to me that most Osteo schools run a longer school year to keep the pace similar. I've been told that there is slightly less biochem.
Yeah, but TCOM is an extreme example. We started school on August 16th and end on May 6th.
 

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OSUdoc08 said:
We take a class that is a biostats-epidemiology course. In fact, I'm in it right now. Also, our biochem class last semester was 5 credit hours.
we have a course too. i'm not saying that it's completely neglected, it's just not, as a rule, taught with the depth that allopathic schools teach it.

i'm not sure what your 5 credit hours translates into... here, 5 hours is less than our 2 week orthopedic surgery course (which was 18 hours)... is 5 a lot or a little? our biochems were 50-ish each quarter.
 

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docslytherin said:
we have a course too. i'm not saying that it's completely neglected, it's just not, as a rule, taught with the depth that allopathic schools teach it.

i'm not sure what your 5 credit hours translates into... here, 5 hours is less than our 2 week orthopedic surgery course (which was 18 hours)... is 5 a lot or a little? our biochems were 50-ish each quarter.
ours is like a regular college course

for example, an entire semester of physics with lab is 4 hours

our biochem is 5 hours the entire semester (that means roughly 5 hours of class every week, all semester)
 

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OrthoFixation said:
As an MS -0.5, it appears to me that most Osteo schools run a longer school year to keep the pace similar. I've been told that there is slightly less biochem.
at kcom you get 5 weeks of vacation between first and second year. after second year, you get about 4 weeks. third i think is a cumulative 3 or 4 weeks and then that's it.
 

docslytherin

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OSUdoc08 said:
ours is like a regular college course

for example, an entire semester of physics with lab is 4 hours

our biochem is 5 hours the entire semester (that means roughly 5 hours of class every week, all semester)
oh alright... ours are cumulative hours (18 for ortho is the total number of hours in class minus tests)
 

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docslytherin said:
at kcom you get 5 weeks of vacation between first and second year. after second year, you get about 4 weeks. third i think is a cumulative 3 or 4 weeks and then that's it.
Between first & second year, we get from the 2nd week of May until the 3rd week of August for summer vacation!
 

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OSUdoc08 said:
Between first & second year, we get from the 2nd week of May until the 3rd week of August for summer vacation!
that is so WRONG!!

hmmph. <<pouting>>
 

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sophiejane said:
that is so WRONG!!

hmmph. <<pouting>>
yeah.....i'll be down hanging out in dallas enjoying my vacation, while you are studying......muah ha ha......
 

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OSUdoc08 said:
yeah.....i'll be down hanging out in dallas enjoying my vacation, while you are studying......muah ha ha......
actually, I'll be on rotations starting July 1...at least that's one consolation...the end of this classroom torture is in sight, anyway...
 

Elysium

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And here I've been bitching because we end May 20 and come back August 8th. Hell, ya'll TCOM kids don't get ANY break. That blows. I need this summer to recover from the torture of this year.
 

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Elysium said:
And here I've been bitching because we end May 20 and come back August 8th. Hell, ya'll TCOM kids don't get ANY break. That blows. I need this summer to recover from the torture of this year.
MSU-COM has us all year.
We take something like 18 units fall and spring, then 12 units summer. Second year starts with fall and spring, then summer, the boards, and rotations.
Oh, wait, that's right, they added a summer course (anatomy) before our first year!

So it goes:
July 7th thru the end of August - 8 wks or so
August thru December - 15 wks
January thru May - 15 wks
May thru July - 11 wks
August thru December - 15 wks
January thru May - 15 wks
May thru July? - 8 wks
Boards
Rotations
:eek:

I'm going where again? The school that never ends!!! :scared:
 

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OSUdoc08 said:
Yeah, but TCOM is an extreme example. We started school on August 16th and end on May 6th.
Not that extreme. At KCOM, we have pretty much the same schedule our first two years. Between 3rd and 4th, I got a weekend. And during fourth year I got 4 weeks. Don't graduate in June. Compared to my friends at MD schools who have 8 weeks vacation, and graduate a month earlier, seems like a lot.

(Of course I have nothing but 20 hour a week slacker rotations for the rest of my time to make up the difference. :)
 

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docslytherin said:
to disagree with the above, OMM takes the place of a portion of epidemiology and biostats when compared with MD schools. if you're planning on taking the USMLE, you'll need to study up on these. at least that's the case here at KCOM and i'm not sure that other schools have those courses in comparable depth when compared to MD institutions. DO schools do have these courses, but not they're not as thoroughly covered as allopathic schools. and from my MD friends, they do much more with biochem than we do(which is part of the explanation for the biochem-heavy USMLE).

john
I agree with this. Here at MSU, we (the MD students) take eipi/biostats first year that the DO students do not take (at least I think so, have not started yet ;) )

However, looking at the 2 programs here, and after asking many current students, I think that the DO students here at MSU are required to be in class overrall more than us MD students because of the OMM. Just another reason why it is so unfair for anyone to think of osteopathic medicine as substandard to allopathic.

I do think that as an MD student I will be getting more stats, epi, and biochem because it is preparatory for USMLE step 1 as was stated by the above poster. IMO, this is the true reason why DO's score lower on USMLE, not because their education is in any way sub-par. On top of taking 2 exams, you have only been prepped by your school for COMLEX, which, so I have neen told, is much different than USMLE. This is further evindenced by the fact than, when you look at step 2 USMLE, the DO and MD scores and pass rates are much closer.
 

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medic170 said:
I agree with this. Here at MSU, we (the MD students) take eipi/biostats first year that the DO students do not take (at least I think so, have not started yet ;) )

However, looking at the 2 programs here, and after asking many current students, I think that the DO students here at MSU are required to be in class overrall more than us MD students because of the OMM. Just another reason why it is so unfair for anyone to think of osteopathic medicine as substandard to allopathic.

I do think that as an MD student I will be getting more stats, epi, and biochem because it is preparatory for USMLE step 1 as was stated by the above poster. IMO, this is the true reason why DO's score lower on USMLE, not because their education is in any way sub-par. On top of taking 2 exams, you have only been prepped by your school for COMLEX, which, so I have neen told, is much different than USMLE. This is further evindenced by the fact than, when you look at step 2 USMLE, the DO and MD scores and pass rates are much closer.
How nice is this to have a poster who knows what they are talking about! Thanks!
 

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kristing said:
How nice is this to have a poster who knows what they are talking about! Thanks!
We all know what we are talking about as it applies to our subjective situation. Just because it is that way at MSU doesn't mean that's the norm. At TCOM, we have epidemiology worked into each system--not that it is as comprehensive as a whole course would be, but it does get worked in to the extent we are expected to know it for the USMLE.

Also, we have quite a bit of biochem that is front-loaded before the systems courses start in first year. Everything in the USMLE biochem board review books is covered either in that first course or in subsequent systems.

Just because you don't have these things all in one class doesn't mean they aren't being taught.
 

kristing

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I guess my point was that it was nice to hear a response from someone who can actually compare because the way the school is set up. The rest of us just take a guess, really, because we are all in either a DO program or an MD program with no real basis for comparison.
 

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I understand your point. I just think it's also important not to lump the curricula of all DO schools together for the sake of comparing them to one MD school, because there are clearly a lot of differences. Having said that, I know that TCOM's curriculum is not the norm for DO schools. We are considered very "allopathic" in our approach as far as academics go.
 

stomper627

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Im curious as to why any of this matters?
 

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stomper627 said:
Im curious as to why any of this matters?
Exactly....each school is different, if they weren't then we would all be going to TCOM....Lets just accept the fact that no matter how great the school, it is the individual that makes the doctor!
 

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Skialta said:
I am in an allopathic med school and our biochem class was 10 credit hours.
Yeah, but schools count credit hours differently. How was it compared to other classes?

For example, the highest credit hour class you can have at my school is 7 hours, gross anatomy. Our OMM, on the other hand, is 2 hours.

The way our school calculates hours is 1 hour for every hour of lecture, and 1 hour for ever 2 hours of lab.

Since our anatomy class is 4 hours of lecture a week (4 credit hours), and 6 hours of lab a week (3 credit hours), then you can add it up to make 7 credit hours total.

Our biochem, on the other hand, is 5 hours. We have 5 hours of lecture a week and no lab.
 

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OSUdoc08 said:
Yeah, but schools count credit hours differently. How was it compared to other classes?

For example, the highest credit hour class you can have at my school is 7 hours, gross anatomy. Our OMM, on the other hand, is 2 hours.

The way our school calculates hours is 1 hour for every hour of lecture, and 1 hour for ever 2 hours of lab.

Since our anatomy class is 4 hours of lecture a week (4 credit hours), and 6 hours of lab a week (3 credit hours), then you can add it up to make 7 credit hours total.

Our biochem, on the other hand, is 5 hours. We have 5 hours of lecture a week and no lab.
who cares????
 

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Apparently Stomper627 does not, in fact, care about this discussion.
 

stomper627

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Youre right....but my dad can beat up your dad.
 

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docslytherin said:
at kcom we have to do a rural FP rotation with some omm component, but it's not an OMM rotation (hallelujah!!). we're killed with it the first two years, i'll be very glad to let it go soon... it's useful, but overkill. learn the mechanics of it and you won't need a book to tell you the treatments... i don't know why there are so many hours here...

(ps- your signature is hilarious!!)

just curious-why did you go to DO school if you have a distaste for OMM/OMT (or am I getting the wrong impression from your post?)
 

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OSUdoc08 said:
OMM is just an extra 3 hours a week for us. There is nothing "cut out" from the traditional medical curriculum.
I cannot see how you could possibly know whether or not something is cut out. I certainly cant say for sure that we dont lose out on hours in cardiology, pulmonology, or anatomy. I also think that even with OMT, OSU-COM has a ridiculously easy class schedule (of course, the proof is in the pudding).
 

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docslytherin said:
(which is part of the explanation for the biochem-heavy USMLE).
no offense, but let me know how 'biochem-heavy' you think the USMLE is in a few months. some tests seemed to have some crazy, unanswerable cell bio questions, but I remember 3-4 biochem questions on USMLE (2 on COMLEX) and none of them were ridiculous...most had pathology correlations (Lesch-Nyhan, for instance).
 

medic170

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Idiopathic said:
no offense, but let me know how 'biochem-heavy' you think the USMLE is in a few months. some tests seemed to have some crazy, unanswerable cell bio questions, but I remember 3-4 biochem questions on USMLE (2 on COMLEX) and none of them were ridiculous...most had pathology correlations (Lesch-Nyhan, for instance).
Yeah, I am just going by what people tell me. I honestly have no idea yet.
 

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stomper627 said:
Youre right....but my dad can beat up your dad.
no he can't, because I'm the kid with two mommies.
 

stomper627

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sophiejane said:
no he can't, because I'm the kid with two mommies.

:)
let me rephrase then.....
my dad can beat up your sperm donor.


Seriously though.....
thats really what this thread is about. what school is "harder", focuses on biochem, etc.
Stupid. What matters is about getting the degree, getting a good residency (where most medical knowledge is learned, so yeah, school doesnt matter at all) and becoming board certified in a specific field of medicine of your choosing. thats it.
 

sophiejane

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I never thought it was about which school was "harder"...I didn't get that it was a "my school is better than your school" type thing. I thought it was interesting to see how different schools worked in OMM and all the other courses and how that differs from allo schools. I think curriculum design is actually really interesting, and since I hope make medical education part of my career someday, it holds personal value for me to learn more about how schools are set up.

(By the way, I do have a dad--I was just being weird. And your dad probably could beat him up. He's sort of the pacifist type. ;) )
 

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What does it matter what school focuses more on what. The end result is the same as the MCAT. Sure you get G-Chem, Physics, O-chem, and Bio before you took the MCAT but how much of it did you really rember when you sat down to seriously study for the MCAT. If you were like most people (at least the ones I know). You porb did'nt rember squat. This is espically true with details. You may have rembered some basics and most of the conceptual stuff, but you had to grind through and relearn the detalils that 1) you never really learned the first time and 2) if you did learn you promptly did a brain dump 1 min s/p exam.

Studying now to take the USMLE and COMLEX I find that this is true again. For example I rember what Lech-Nyhan is what the symptoms are, but as to the bio-chemical pathway defect, I had no frickin clue, and had to go look that up.

End of story no matter what school focuses more on what the end result is that you have to pass the boards, and that does'nt happen just by being good or really hard is one subject area you gotta glean the pertinant stuff from each subject and move on.


.....where am I going with this? I dont know I'm just rambling. I just got out of Board Review and the caffine just kicked in.