what else can an MD do?

[HEENTdude]

just out of curiosity, what opportunities are open to MD's that do not want to either practice after residency or even enter residency?

I know of 2 people, one who will enter business after 4th year and one who is going to work for big pharma, who are pursuing alternatives to working as a "doctor".

How viable are those options? Will you be making more money going that route? Do you need previous business/work-force experience to be able to do that and be economically ok (post-loans)?

thanks

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[IlDestriero]

Go to law school. Pursue malpractice law. Make mad loot convincing juries that physicians should be infallible, and chasing ambulances, etc.

 

[HEENTdude]

Go to law school. Pursue malpractice law. Make mad loot convincing juries that physicians should be infallible, and chasing ambulances, etc.

ouch. I remember reading about a guy who did that in the Boston area. Granted, he was a physician for a decade or two before switching to malpractice law. that's definitely not my style.

just fyi, i am going into medicine just to make it clear. I'm just intellectually curious as to what options exist for MD's who ironically no longer want to continue the practice of medicine.

 

[txprodigal]

ouch. I remember reading about a guy who did that in the Boston area. Granted, he was a physician for a decade or two before switching to malpractice law. that's definitely not my style.

just fyi, i am going into medicine just to make it clear. I'm just intellectually curious as to what options exist for MD's who ironically no longer want to continue the practice of medicine.

you can always do consulting - i think harvard usually has a couple that go to mckinsey, bain, or one of those

 

[2662]

Medical research, teach at medical school, college instructor, drug company rep, public health consultation, goverment policy wonk (think tanks), health related charities - lots of non-clinical work available for MDs.

 

[HEENTdude]

Medical research, teach at medical school, college instructor, drug company rep, public health consultation, goverment policy wonk (think tanks), health related charities - lots of non-clinical work available for MDs.

are these positions usually filled by MD's post or pre-residency?

 

[2662]

are these positions usually filled by MD's post or pre-residency?

A residency is not needed for those jobs listed above; although, one can do any of that work with a residency.

 

[Trismegistus4]

I looked at the job listings for MDs on a few big-pharma websites, and they all wanted MDs who had completed a residency and had some experience practicing medicine.

I would love to know where all these jobs are that your average newly-minted MD with no experience can get.

 

[nitemagi]

This has been discussed before. Do some searches. The answer is not much, and has been explored here. If you have enough of a research base you could work for pharma or biotech. If you're entrepreneurial you can apply your skills to any other profession, such as business.

But there aren't tons of ads floating asking for "MD, no residency required!"

 

[mydogtobbi]

Medical research, teach at medical school, college instructor, drug company rep, public health consultation, goverment policy wonk (think tanks), health related charities - lots of non-clinical work available for MDs.

You can't teach at a college unless you have a Master's in a given field that you want to teach in. So, if you obtained an MD/DO, and already have a Masters degree in Math, you can teach math at a community college or 4 year college. Under certain circumstances you may be able to teach at a University, but that is more the exception.

You may end up falling back on an old career, such as, a former MD classmate did not finish his fourth year and is now working as a mechanical engineer and also teaching foreign language.

 

[EgotiStick]

I know of people who enjoy working for McKinsey as consultants.. they also finished MD/MBA's for what its worth. The big consulting firms hire docs as "expert consultants" in the medical field, similar to them hiring an electrical engineering wizard to handle that field. The guys who get in tend to have plenty of work (but its consulting work, not exactly a "lifestyle" field).

Starting sal for a regular MBA is ~125-150. The salary jumps are around $50k not including bonuses when moving up the low rungs of that ladder. I would imagine an MD would command more money (albeit not much more). You top out pretty good at those types of firms if you make it to the high levels, but I would put the odds of landing this career as slim to none for people who haven't been gunning for it the whole time, similar to any competitive/desirable residency.

 

[MossPoh]

You can't teach at a college unless you have a Master's in a given field that you want to teach in. So, if you obtained an MD/DO, and already have a Masters degree in Math, you can teach math at a community college or 4 year college. Under certain circumstances you may be able to teach at a University, but that is more the exception.

You may end up falling back on an old career, such as, a former MD classmate did not finish his fourth year and is now working as a mechanical engineer and also teaching foreign language.

I'm not sure that is true. Does that mean the MDs teaching us pathology, parts of physiology, or many of the other classes are good enough for medical school but not for an undergrad physiology course? I actually know of a doctor that teaches an undergrad physiology class without a masters.

Anyway, there are TONS of threads on this. You can DO whatever you want, but a medical degree is a very specific degree that doesn't have much direct translation into other fields, besides showing you know how to work hard and probably pick up stuff fast. I know of an orthopedic surgeon that hurt his back real bad and couldn't practice anymore, so he wound up working on the sales end and giving talks, as well as doing a little clinic work for his partners once in a while. He simply couldn't stand in the OR all day.

 

[bomgd3]

If Dana Scully is an accurate character, apparently, FBI agent.

 

[mkietu]

Politics

 

[nitemagi]

If Dana Scully is an accurate character, apparently, FBI agent.

Scully was a forensic pathologist.

 

[2662]

You can't teach at a college unless you have a Master's in a given field that you want to teach in.

An MD doesn't have an instruction componant, but it is an advanced degree, higher than that of a masters. Though, there are many more MDs working in the health professional schools than that of under- and graduate levels (same as JDs working at law schools).

 

[Californian]

Medical research, teach at medical school, college instructor, drug company rep, public health consultation, goverment policy wonk (think tanks), health related charities - lots of non-clinical work available for MDs.

Does it apply to FMG/IMG's who got their MD from other country?

 

[Wilf]

An MD doesn't have an instruction componant, but it is an advanced degree, higher than that of a masters. Though, there are many more MDs working in the health professional schools than that of under- and graduate levels (same as JDs working at law schools).

MD and JD are considered above PhD too, and they can obviously teach in universities despite what a previous poster said.

 

[Californian]

MD and JD are considered above PhD too, and they can obviously teach in universities despite what a previous poster said.

univeristy or community college? does it apply to foreign MD?

 

[mydogtobbi]

I'm not sure that is true. Does that mean the MDs teaching us pathology, parts of physiology, or many of the other classes are good enough for medical school but not for an undergrad physiology course? I actually know of a doctor that teaches an undergrad physiology class without a masters.

Anyway, there are TONS of threads on this. You can DO whatever you want, but a medical degree is a very specific degree that doesn't have much direct translation into other fields, besides showing you know how to work hard and probably pick up stuff fast. I know of an orthopedic surgeon that hurt his back real bad and couldn't practice anymore, so he wound up working on the sales end and giving talks, as well as doing a little clinic work for his partners once in a while. He simply couldn't stand in the OR all day.

It may not make sense, but it is this way for the state that I live in. This has been tried before, at least where I live.

 

[mydogtobbi]

MD and JD are considered above PhD too, and they can obviously teach in universities despite what a previous poster said.

No way!! When one looks at how long it takes to get a Phd, it goes way beyond 4 years, and I am speaking from experience. After obtaining the Phd, many go on to complete post-docs in their field.

 

[cowme]

No way!! When one looks at how long it takes to get a Phd, it goes way beyond 4 years, and I am speaking from experience. After obtaining the Phd, many go on to complete post-docs in their field.

Well....not to get too sidetracked, but I have to agree that in Medicine, an MD is certainly valued above a PhD, just as a JD is more important than a PhD in law. Just because you took ~5 years to get a PhD doesn't mean it carries any more weight in society. Obviously, MD/PhD carries more weight than an MD alone, but I wouldn't say that 5 years of becoming an expert in a super-specific subset of knowledge makes much of a different for teaching.

 

[mydogtobbi]

Well....not to get too sidetracked, but I have to agree that in Medicine, an MD is certainly valued above a PhD, just as a JD is more important than a PhD in law. Just because you took ~5 years to get a PhD doesn't mean it carries any more weight in society. Obviously, MD/PhD carries more weight than an MD alone, but I wouldn't say that 5 years of becoming an expert in a super-specific subset of knowledge makes much of a different for teaching.

Oh, it takes more than 5 years!!!! It can take over 7 years, and that is not including the fact that some programs require a masters degree before a Phd. I went through a Phd, and it took more than 10 years took complete. And it had nothing to do with my PI (you hear rumours about the way PIs are) or myself as a student (I did well and worked very hard). It just took a long time. Later, I pursued the MD because of poor job prospects in the field that I got the doctorate in. You have no idea what you are talking about. Get off your high horse. You will eventually learn that you are wrong.

 

[Untraditional]

You could "draw inspiration" from your research advisor's life work and start a company while shamelessly promoting yourself to the media, marry the self-proclaimed "World's smartest woman" and then pitch Lipitor for millions in cash.

 

[EgotiStick]

. Get off your high horse. You will eventually learn that you are wrong.

I think you may be the one on the high horse here buddy. MD's, especially in anything medical or health related, are valued higher than PhD's. PhD-holding asst/junior faculty members at two institutions I've either worked in or studied in get paid less than their MD counterparts.

Some PhD's take 10 years, some take 3, it just depends on your work and what you're willing to endeavor to accomplish. Unfortunately for those taking 10 year stints, society doesn't value the PhD any more for it

 

[cowme]

Oh, it takes more than 5 years!!!! It can take over 7 years, and that is not including the fact that some programs require a masters degree before a Phd. I went through a Phd, and it took more than 10 years took complete. And it had nothing to do with my PI (you hear rumours about the way PIs are) or myself as a student (I did well and worked very hard). It just took a long time. Later, I pursued the MD because of poor job prospects in the field that I got the doctorate in. You have no idea what you are talking about. Get off your high horse. You will eventually learn that you are wrong.

Huh? What high horse? I was referring to a degree's applicability to teaching...nothing else. I didn't mean to offend you, or anyone, and I apologize if it came off that way.

I obviously value research, and the work that PhD's do. I was just referring to the degree itself rather than the work to achieve it. Just because one take 7+ years doesn't make it more important than one that takes 4.

 

[Lokhtar]

I'm not sure that is true. Does that mean the MDs teaching us pathology, parts of physiology, or many of the other classes are good enough for medical school but not for an undergrad physiology course? I actually know of a doctor that teaches an undergrad physiology class without a masters.

Yes, and no. Undergrad course, maybe? But usually as a lecturer. Obviously to teach grad level courses or to actually get tenure, you will need a PhD.

MD and JD are considered above PhD too, and they can obviously teach in universities despite what a previous poster said.

Err, no.

 

[Lokhtar]

Huh? What high horse? I was referring to a degree's applicability to teaching...nothing else. I didn't mean to offend you, or anyone, and I apologize if it came off that way.

PhD is a research degree and a terminal degree in its field, and you will have to have a PhD to teach grad courses. PhD is much more applicable to teaching than a MD, unless the course is very specific, as in 'clinical neurology'. Of course a MD 'can' teach physiology, but you'd generally want a PhD in physiology.

Before the 'degree inflation' started in the states (first MD, then DPT, now DNP, etc), and in most other countries even now, MBBS (which we term MD) is not a doctoral degree but an undergraduate degree. That's why it's still called 'Undergraduate Medical Education' even here. Residency is 'graduate' level degree, but still those are professional doctorates, which are different from the traditional PhD doctorates, which is what would matter at a university.

Basically, the moral of the story is: with very few exceptions, don't expect any advancement with a non-PhD degree if you want to work at a university. The difference might be teaching at a medical school, but then generally you do have some clinical load.

I think you may be the one on the high horse here buddy. MD's, especially in anything medical or health related, are valued higher than PhD's.

You need to distinguish this - 'valued' where? You mean clinically? Well duh, a PhD does not practice medicine. You mean as experts in a field? Clinically? Duh, a PhD is not a professional doctorate.

But science wise? No.

 

[mydogtobbi]

I think you may be the one on the high horse here buddy. MD's, especially in anything medical or health related, are valued higher than PhD's. PhD-holding asst/junior faculty members at two institutions I've either worked in or studied in get paid less than their MD counterparts.

Some PhD's take 10 years, some take 3, it just depends on your work and what you're willing to endeavor to accomplish. Unfortunately for those taking 10 year stints, society doesn't value the PhD any more for it

It takes more than 3-5 years to get a Phd!!!!! I would know that I have a Phd and an MD. It takes such a long time that many many students drop out and don't even make it pass the comp exams, orals to get to the All But Dissertation (ABD) phase.

There are many bright people with masters degree in mathematics whether it be Berkely or not and were not able to complete a Phd because it was too long of a process, and thus left with a Masters in Math. You are hallucinating if you think you can finish it in 3. Some programs require a Masters before getting a Phd, which makes the process MUCH longer. My program required a Masters before going for the Phd. Don't ASSume so much. With you being a med student, I know you like to think that you have it the hardest and are the best. But, it ain't so, and you will learn later.

By the way, I am not your buddy!!!!!

 

[mydogtobbi]

It takes more than 3-5 years to get a Phd!!!!! I would know that I have a Phd and an MD. It takes such a long time that many many students drop out and don't even make it pass the comp exams, orals to get to the All But Dissertation (ABD) phase.

There are many bright people with masters degree in mathematics whether it be Berkely or not and were not able to complete a Phd because it was too long of a process, and thus left with a Masters in Math. You are hallucinating if you think you can finish it in 3. Some programs require a Masters before getting a Phd, which makes the process MUCH longer. My program required a Masters before going for the Phd. Don't ASSume so much.With you being a med student,I know you like to think that you have it the hardest and are the best. But, it ain't so.

By the way, I am not your buddy!!!!!

delete

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

MD and JD are considered above PhD too

According to who? you? This is very situationally dependent. There are about a million different degrees in the world, and there's no absolute or official ranking.

Some degrees listed in wikipedia:

AA, AS, AAS, AGS, AST, EdS, SSP, SClP, EE, ChE, CE, EnvE, IE, MechE, NuclE, SysE, LLB, BHSc, BM, BDes, BScIT, ScB, BS, SB, BASc, BPhil, BBus, BSBA, BPE, BMath, BSW, BVSc, BPharm, BEng, BBA, BTech, BCom, BAA, B, BD, BLS, AB, BA, BFA, MBA, MHA, MPP, MA, MFA, LLM, MS, MSc, MScIT, MSEd, MSEd, MSW, MCM, MDiv, MAS, MMus, MSSc, MEcon, MFin, MPA, MSPH, MEd, EdM, MEng, MH, MJ, MDes, MPharm, MEnt, MPhil, MSt, drs., PSM, M, MPS, MD, DO, EngD, DBA, DMD, DDM, DDS, DPT, ND, OD, DVM, VMD, DMin, AuD, PharmD, JD, PThD, DThP, DIT, DPM, DProf, PsyD, DNP, DC, PhD, EdD, DPS, DD, DTh, ThD, STD, DSW, DHSc, ScD, JSD, DSc, DSocSci
​

There's no easy way to rank all these degrees!

______________________________________________________________________________________

Generally, bachelors is below master's, and master's is below doctorate. But in some cases it's not that easy. Take law degrees for example:

A LLM (master's in law) is higher than a JD (juris doctorate).

Meanwhile, a LLB (bachelor of laws) is equal to a juris doctorate.​

______________________________________________________________________________________

In my humble opinion:

MD is higher when you want to treat patients medically.

MD is not higher for research. If the MD was higher than PhD for research, then there would be no benefit for the MD/PhD people who add on a PhD, get it? That's why they add the PhD... best of both worlds.

In other words:

 

[EgotiStick]

The MD vs PhD reference I was talking about is for clinical or translational science labs where MDs doing basic science research are more respected, and better paid than their PhD carrying counterparts. I don't really have an explanation for this, but there's definitely a general feeling among many people I know (bias from being a med student in clincal and translational science labs) that the MD is harder to attain than the PhD.

Most MD/PhD people I know did their PhD in 3 years with rare exceptions that took 4 (MSTPs). People who complete their PhD first make me raise an eyebrow.

Who cares about Masters or PhD's in mathematics? When was that the discussion? The fact of the matter is that if you don't stay in the field of your PhD, the years you spent completing it are irrelevant to your current life past the impressiveness of the acronym. Why spend 10 when you can spend 4.

 

[mydogtobbi]

The MD vs PhD reference I was talking about is for clinical or translational science labs where MDs doing basic science research are more respected, and better paid than their PhD carrying counterparts. I don't really have an explanation for this, but there's definitely a general feeling among many people I know (bias from being a med student in clincal and translational science labs) that the MD is harder to attain than the PhD.

Most MD/PhD people I know did their PhD in 3 years with rare exceptions that took 4 (MSTPs). People who complete their PhD first make me raise an eyebrow.

Who cares about Masters or PhD's in mathematics? When was that the discussion? Why spend 10 when you can spend 4.


I am only using Math or other programs in the physical sciences as examples because you are generalizing by stating that an MD is harder to get than a Phd. But, there are many other factors to look at.

I know many doctors that do not feel that way you do. There are doctors that do not have the math ability to even get into a Bachelor's program in engineering or even complete a math/physics ugrad degree. How can you complete or even enter a Math/physics Phd program if you don't have the ability to barely complete an ugrad program in it? I have had students that went on to medical school that could not complete higher level math after seriously trying. One of my former students is a Pathologist now. This was her second choice because she wanted to be an engineer. She tried VERY VERY HARD, but she couldn't complete the math requirements to get in to an ugrad engineer program.

If you are going to generalize by stating that it is harder to get an MD versus Phd, you have to look at these other factors too. If there are physicians whom are not good at high level math, what makes you think that they can get a Phd in it when they can't even get a ugrad degree in it.

As far as why spend 10 and not 4, I am not going to even bother addressing that because that is an individual choice. People go by what they are interested in even if it takes longer.

 

[mydogtobbi]

Also an MD/Phd program is not a good example for a straight Phd program because the Phd portion is watered down. I have worked with and supervised students in MD/Phd programs in the past.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

MD and JD are considered above PhD too, and they can obviously teach in universities despite what a previous poster said.

Well I did some more digging around... No offense, but it seems like you are absolutely wrong!

According to the United States Department of Education:

"The research doctorate, or the Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) and its equivalent titles, represents the highest academic qualification in the U.S. education system."

"[Degrees such as Doctor of Medicine] use the term "doctor" in the title, but...should not be confused with PhD degrees or other research doctorates."

See attachments. Both were accessed from this website.