What happened to the pharmacy profession?

[neuropathic]

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Even though I cannot see myself filling prescriptions in a stressful environment as a career, I used to think pharmacy is a respectable profession. But I think the profession has changed a lot in the past 15-20 years. In particular, pharmacy schools are opening all over the country and the profession is now diluted. Isn't there supposed to be controlled from the accreditation council when and why a school can start?

 

[steveysmith54]

Yawn zzzzzzzzz

 

[y0ssarian87]

Even though I cannot see myself filling prescriptions in a stressful environment as a career, I used to think pharmacy is a respectable profession. But I think the profession has changed a lot in the past 15-20 years. In particular, pharmacy schools are opening all over the country and the profession is now diluted. Isn't there supposed to be controlled from the accreditation council when and why a school can start?

Accreditation doesn't work that way. ACPE's sole job is to ensure that institutions that have or are creating a pharmacy school meet minimum standards for the delivery of education. Their job is to ensure quality of education, not to be a gatekeeper that controls the number of schools or enrollment figures. The free market is supposed to control those numbers. This has been discussed at length in threads here. I agree though that it's unfortunate.


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[Apples2Oranges]

I think the profession is not viewed as badly as it is portrayed on SDN. I've spoken to plenty of people (both pharmacists and non-pharmacists), and they still think pharmacy is one of the more respected fields than others. TBH, it's not as much of a wow-factor as being an MD or a CEO of some business, but it's still relatively viewed in a brighter light. Whether the job saturation has impacted your decision, then follow your heart. The eruption of pharmacy schools hurt, but the top ones (maybe top 10) are still viewed well.

 

[PharmtoCS]

I've spoken to plenty of people (both pharmacists and non-pharmacists), and they still think pharmacy is one of the more respected fields than others.

Depends on the work setting of the pharmacists whom you have talked. From those in academia, I wouldn't be too surprised. For those in dispensing roles (retail, hospital, LTC, etc.) where the majority work, you will hear a different story.

 

[PAtoPharm]

When someone asked the former APhA president about what the APhA planned to do about the massive pharmacist oversupply in a thread on the forum a few months ago, he responded and said something along the lines of, "We need to make sure that we don't forget to prioritize patients' interests, instead of putting ourselves first." Most people would take that as an overt declaration that the APhA has no plans to address the oversupply, or even acknowledge that it exists. There is no organization in the pharmacy profession that will protect pharmacists' interests when it comes to this.

 

[confettiflyer]

The great pharmacy students will have employers clamoring for them, they still bring value to an institution.

I pity the mediocre students, because the god forsaken places desperate to take you continue to dwindle each passing year.

 

[a student]

The great pharmacy students will have employers clamoring for them, they still bring value to an institution.

I pity the mediocre students, because the god forsaken places desperate to take you continue to dwindle each passing year.

- Coach Carter

 

[Apples2Oranges]

Depends on the work setting of the pharmacists whom you have talked. From those in academia, I wouldn't be too surprised. For those in dispensing roles (retail, hospital, LTC, etc.) where the majority work, you will hear a different story.

no. some are hospital and others are industry. one is a clinical pharmacist at WF University, one is the director of a pharm dept (he sets the residencies), one works for GSK, one CVS. The CVS one was the least happy, but she said she had a good pay and decent life doing it. I know her personally. She has a comfortable home, nice family and she gets to splurge on her favorite things. That's not to say everyone will end up lucky like her, but it offers some optimism in dark SDN forums.

 

[rxdawg21]

no. some are hospital and others are industry. one is a clinical pharmacist at WF University, one is the director of a pharm dept (he sets the residencies), one works for GSK, one CVS. The CVS one was the least happy, but she said she had a good pay and decent life doing it. I know her personally. She has a comfortable home, nice family and she gets to splurge on her favorite things. That's not to say everyone will end up lucky like her, but it offers some optimism in dark SDN forums.

So the unicorn jobs lol. If the CVS pharmacist has the average 150-200k of debt new grads do that don't go to a cheap instate school (and some that did if took 8 years) then she is in deep debt to have those nice things (unless of course her husband makes good money, but of course if he has that debt load too...). Working retail isn't that bad if you came out of school with little to no debt. You should have >500k (graduating 15 years ago) saved up at this point living a modest/above modest lifestyle. Retail now is different, not guaranteed hours, lower starting pay, high debt, for a crappy worklife.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

When someone asked the former APhA president about what the APhA planned to do about the massive pharmacist oversupply in a thread on the forum a few months ago, he responded and said something along the lines of, "We need to make sure that we don't forget to prioritize patients' interests, instead of putting ourselves first." Most people would take that as an overt declaration that the APhA has no plans to address the oversupply, or even acknowledge that it exists. There is no organization in the pharmacy profession that will protect pharmacists' interests when it comes to this.

The president of that useless organization was on here and I missed it? I'd have raked him over the coals like I do the occasional school admin that dares to come on here.

 

[PAtoPharm]

The president of that useless organization was on here and I missed it? I'd have raked him over the coals like I do the occasional school admin that dares to come on here.

I think it was a recent past president or VP of the APhA (or someone with a similar position). He is a pharmacy school dean now

 

[Leper Messiah]

The president of that useless organization was on here and I missed it? I'd have raked him over the coals like I do the occasional school admin that dares to come on here.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...ed-an-additional-100-000-pharmacists.1202378/

 

[neuropathic]

It doesn't seem like there is any hope the proliferation of pharmacy graduates will slow down in the near future. Maybe eventually everyone will have to take a big pay cut before young people realize it is not worth it to flood into pharmacy school.

If students are really committed to the profession, I would give them support. But it seems like too many students just trying to get in primarily to make good money. And it doesn't seem like it's that competitive to get a seat in a school. It's just sad to see this profession spiraling down.

 

[bulldog1123]

It doesn't seem like there is any hope the proliferation of pharmacy graduates will slow down in the near future. Maybe eventually everyone will have to take a big pay cut before young people realize it is not worth it to flood into pharmacy school.

If students are really committed to the profession, I would give them support. But it seems like too many students just trying to get in primarily to make good money. And it doesn't seem like it's that competitive to get a seat in a school. It's just sad to see this profession spiraling down.

Applications to schools are down across the board on average. Maybe I am being too optimistic but its only a matter of time before schools will have to take drastic measures (shut down?) due to decreasing class sizes.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I think it was a recent past president or VP of the APhA (or someone with a similar position). He is a pharmacy school dean now

So the same human was both an admin at APhA and is in academia. I don't know a single thing about who this person is, but I hate them on principle.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...ed-an-additional-100-000-pharmacists.1202378/

Oh, that douche nozzle. I've already gotten into it with him and his money grab school.

 

[BMBiology]

Invasion of the subpar students. That is what happened. Check out the pre-pharmacy forum. Students with multiple Ds and Fs are getting accepted. Shouldn't we have some standards for a doctorate program? The ACPE is a complete joke. If they are doing their jobs, NAPLEX passing rate wouldn't have been so low.

It used to mean something to get accepted but nowadays, anybody can get accepted. What does that say about the job market? If things are fine, then why do admissions standards keep on dropping?

The sad truth is a lot of new graduates don't have any practical work experience. They can't work as a pharmacist. Hospitals don't want to hire them. They can't do retails. So some of them have to take a job in the middle of nowhere but soon these rural jobs are going to dry up too. Then what? Come here and complain?


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[neuropathic]

Invasion of the subpar students. That is what happened. Check out the pre-pharmacy forum. Students with multiple Ds and Fs are getting accepted. Shouldn't we have some standards for a doctorate program? The ACPE is a complete joke. If they are doing their jobs, NAPLEX passing rate wouldn't have been so low.

It used to mean something to get accepted but nowadays, anybody can get accepted. What does that say about the job market? If things are fine, then why do admissions standards keep on dropping?

The sad truth is a lot of new graduates don't have any practical work experience. They can't work as a pharmacist. Hospitals don't want to hire them. They can't do retails. So some of them have to take a job in the middle of nowhere but soon these rural jobs are going to dry up too. Then what? Come here and complain?


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Mutiple Ds/Fs? Seriously, that's horrible. You shouldn't be qualified for any graduate degree with those credentials. The bottom line is if there are jobs that pay $60/hr right out of school, there will always be someone willing to do it even if they hate being a pharmacist/going to work everyday.

 

[Apples2Oranges]

So the unicorn jobs lol. If the CVS pharmacist has the average 150-200k of debt new grads do that don't go to a cheap instate school (and some that did if took 8 years) then she is in deep debt to have those nice things (unless of course her husband makes good money, but of course if he has that debt load too...). Working retail isn't that bad if you came out of school with little to no debt. You should have >500k (graduating 15 years ago) saved up at this point living a modest/above modest lifestyle. Retail now is different, not guaranteed hours, lower starting pay, high debt, for a crappy worklife.

No, she is no longer in debt. She graduated in 2012 and paid off $180k (from a top pharm school) by herself within 3 years. Her husband makes less than her. He is an engineer. Her spending isn't extravagant like buying expensive cars or extravagant gifts. I meant splurge as in nice clothes or good food. You do not need to have over $500k saved up to live well, or you're just a spendthrift. My parents have a combined income of $50k, and we live a comfortable lifestyle. You don't need that much money and materialism to live happier.

But thanks. 🙂

 

[BenJammin]

When someone asked the former APhA president about what the APhA planned to do about the massive pharmacist oversupply in a thread on the forum a few months ago, he responded and said something along the lines of, "We need to make sure that we don't forget to prioritize patients' interests, instead of putting ourselves first." Most people would take that as an overt declaration that the APhA has no plans to address the oversupply, or even acknowledge that it exists. There is no organization in the pharmacy profession that will protect pharmacists' interests when it comes to this.

He couldn't even respond to this question I posed to him: if prioritizing patients mean asking new grads to take a lower salary, would you advocate for that? Keep in mind that APhA wrote AGAINST then-President Obama's order that certain groups be granted overtime pay and pharmacy residents fell into that category.

 

[rxdawg21]

No, she is no longer in debt. She graduated in 2012 and paid off $180k (from a top pharm school) by herself within 3 years. Her husband makes less than her. He is an engineer. Her spending isn't extravagant like buying expensive cars or extravagant gifts. I meant splurge as in nice clothes or good food. You do not need to have over $500k saved up to live well, or you're just a spendthrift. My parents have a combined income of $50k, and we live a comfortable lifestyle. You don't need that much money and materialism to live happier.

But thanks. 🙂

I didn't say that you had to have $500k saved up to live well. I said that if you graduated as a pharmacist 15 years ago and lived modestly and had zero debt you would should have about $500k saved up (this includes retirement which is savings) . If your friend paid off $180k of loans in 3 years then you are just proving my point.

Direct quote "Working retail isn't that bad if you came out of school with little to no debt. You should have >500k (graduating 15 years ago) saved up at this point living a modest/above modest lifestyle."

Second, you said she gets to splurge on her favorite things and has a comfortable home. I probably took favorite things liberally (as far as splurging on favorite things) as clearly you can buy nice clothes and dinner on a pharmacists salary (although not every night lol). When I think of a comfortable home I'm thinking 250k and that is for a relatively low cost of living area outside a major city in the southeast. Our definitions probably vary on that. To graduate and pay off 180k over 3 years (if the balance started at 180k) would take a payment of $5520.92 cents a month. This is assuming a 3 year pay off of a starting balance of 180k with a 6.55% interest rate (which is accurate I graduated in 2013 and the govt grad rate was 6.8% with a .25% reduction for auto payments. Lets say the total she paid was 180k which means that's what she paid with interest, the monthly payment is $5000.

You do realize that is literally your ~85% of your paycheck (except in California apparently but again they have higher state taxes so that may make up for pay difference and a comfortable house in any city around there isn't 250k) after taxes. So unless someone else is paying the mortgage/rent, food, insurance, cell phone etc bill it would be literally impossible to live off $1000 a month when the other $5-5500 is going to your student loan. It would take severe discipline and other factors to pay off 180k in three years, other factors as in you live at home/have a spouse paying most of your expenses.

I whole heartedly agree with your last two sentences. I'm not trying to be mean, I am being realistic and giving a realistic view of the pharmacy profession. Graduating 180k in loans is a huge burden on someone making 110-120k starting out (if you get 40 hours a week) which is the typically starting salary with 2% raises yearly. You will have a hard time getting a car (most need to replace there's and want something decent), saving up a downpayment for a home (wouldn't recommend putting 3% down), and saving for retirement early in your career (arguably the most important time) with a 180k collar dragging you down.

Your take home pay on 120k (~$58 an hour) for a single person in Georgia with no retirement, insurance, etc coming out of your paycheck is $3050.94 every 2 weeks according to paycheck city. Obviously these numbers will vary a little depending on your variable factors but is a good estimate and overshoots by a little due to insurance etc typically coming out of your check, plus the 401k contribution of which you should at least be doing the match which is 5% at CVS.

 

[Apples2Oranges]

I didn't say that you had to have $500k saved up to live well. I said that if you graduated as a pharmacist 15 years ago and lived modestly and had zero debt you would should have about $500k saved up (this includes retirement which is savings) . If your friend paid off $180k of loans in 3 years then you are just proving my point.

Direct quote "Working retail isn't that bad if you came out of school with little to no debt. You should have >500k (graduating 15 years ago) saved up at this point living a modest/above modest lifestyle."

Second, you said she gets to splurge on her favorite things and has a comfortable home. I probably took favorite things liberally (as far as splurging on favorite things) as clearly you can buy nice clothes and dinner on a pharmacists salary (although not every night lol). When I think of a comfortable home I'm thinking 250k and that is for a relatively low cost of living area outside a major city in the southeast. Our definitions probably vary on that. To graduate and pay off 180k over 3 years (if the balance started at 180k) would take a payment of $5520.92 cents a month. This is assuming a 3 year pay off of a starting balance of 180k with a 6.55% interest rate (which is accurate I graduated in 2013 and the govt grad rate was 6.8% with a .25% reduction for auto payments. Lets say the total she paid was 180k which means that's what she paid with interest, the monthly payment is $5000.

You do realize that is literally your ~85% of your paycheck (except in California apparently but again they have higher state taxes so that may make up for pay difference and a comfortable house in any city around there isn't 250k) after taxes. So unless someone else is paying the mortgage/rent, food, insurance, cell phone etc bill it would be literally impossible to live off $1000 a month when the other $5-5500 is going to your student loan. It would take severe discipline and other factors to pay off 180k in three years, other factors as in you live at home/have a spouse paying most of your expenses.

I whole heartedly agree with your last two sentences. I'm not trying to be mean, I am being realistic and giving a realistic view of the pharmacy profession. Graduating 180k in loans is a huge burden on someone making 110-120k starting out (if you get 40 hours a week) which is the typically starting salary with 2% raises yearly. You will have a hard time getting a car (most need to replace there's and want something decent), saving up a downpayment for a home (wouldn't recommend putting 3% down), and saving for retirement early in your career (arguably the most important time) with a 180k collar dragging you down.

Your take home pay on 120k (~$58 an hour) for a single person in Georgia with no retirement, insurance, etc coming out of your paycheck is $3050.94 every 2 weeks according to paycheck city. Obviously these numbers will vary a little depending on your variable factors but is a good estimate and overshoots by a little due to insurance etc typically coming out of your check, plus the 401k contribution of which you should at least be doing the match which is 5% at CVS.

You aren't being mean, and I agree I was shocked when she said it only took her 3 years. But she lived in one of the sketchiest places in the city with 2 other roommates and her husband. Her husband didn't have too much debt coming out so he was able to help. They just bought a reasonable $150k house. It's very average, but it fits their size. Of course they're paying mortgage, but they're better off than most people I've seen without jobs or lower pay.

I just want to say while I know a majority of pharmacists are in retail, not everyone suffers. And it's not impossible to get hospital/industry jobs. It's incredibly difficult. Some of the people in the "unicorn" jobs started out as residents or retail pharmacists. But it's not like people give pharmacists a disdainful look when they say they're in the profession. More often than not, they get a decent response. Pharmacists are still a good profession in the eyes of the general public. Of course it wasn't like 15-20 yrs ago, but that's what happened in medicine and nursing. So many doctors I've worked with say that doctors aren't respected, either. It sucks.

 

[Rouelle]

So the same human was both an admin at APhA and is in academia. I don't know a single thing about who this person is, but I hate them on principle.

So are you implying that you don't respect being led and/or taught pharmacy by a pharmacist who has never verified a script/order??? I for one prefer pharmacy leaders who have never practiced in any way whatsoever. 🙂

 

[lord999]

So are you implying that you don't respect being led and/or taught pharmacy by a pharmacist who has never verified a script/order??? I for one prefer pharmacy leaders who have never practiced in any way whatsoever. 🙂

In his defense, LB started as an enlisted military pharmacy tech, which for those who don't know, is basically outpatient pharmacist-lite and worked like hell when he was in graduate school (fastest PhD record). He's put in his time and even survived a RIF. Why he's decided to sell out, I don't know, but he isn't quite the head in the clouds academic that some of you characterize him as. Greedy and short-sighted, that's a different question.

 

[Rouelle]

In his defense, LB started as an enlisted military pharmacy tech, which for those who don't know, is basically outpatient pharmacist-lite and worked like hell when he was in graduate school (fastest PhD record). He's put in his time and even survived a RIF. Why he's decided to sell out, I don't know, but he isn't quite the head in the clouds academic that some of you characterize him as. Greedy and short-sighted, that's a different question.

In all seriousness, I have no idea who we are talking about. In real life he could very well be an outstanding pharmacist. My sarcasm was addressed to the general institution and not toward an individual real person.