What is a normal amount of PTO to ask for?

[deleted1100659]

This job essentially gives 15 days PTO and 10 UTO. Its a 4 day a week (10 hour days) schedule though- outpatient psych, so i guess you're off each friday at least.

Also enrollment in their 401k is only after one year of employment which I found odd.

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[Sushirolls]

If you are concerned about PTO, then you are more in the direction of a salaried job then a wRVU production mine most likely.
This job should clinically be exactly what you want, and be chill, and have great support staff, and smell of roses. Otherwise I think you are walking into disappointment just from what you have posted.

 

[Bartelby]

The VA gives 26 days of vacation time, 13 days sick leave, and 10 holidays (VA.gov | Veterans Affairs). That is probably a bit generous for many private organizations but personally I use that as an anchor point for a good leave package.

 

[WisNeuro]

This job essentially gives 15 days PTO and 10 UTO. Its a 4 day a week (10 hour days) schedule though- outpatient psych, so i guess you're off each friday at least.

Also enrollment in their 401k is only after one year of employment which I found odd.

Personally, this should be a nonstarter, regardless of that very low PTO.

 

[jbomba]

This job essentially gives 15 days PTO and 10 UTO. Its a 4 day a week (10 hour days) schedule though- outpatient psych, so i guess you're off each friday at least.

Also enrollment in their 401k is only after one year of employment which I found odd.

I wouldn't look at this as you're off every Friday. You're working 40 hour weeks. They aren't getting less productivity out of you by giving you Fridays off.

 

[deleted1100659]

All very good points- the one positive is it has a fair salary supposedly in 250k-270k range and monthly productivity bonuses as well as performance bonuses every six months but awaiting the details of how to get those which is supposed to amount to anywhere from 70-130k total depending on productivity achieved. Sounds like good compensation but I guess I’ll see more of the details

Of note all their clinics have really good reviews which seems rare for psych clinics from what I’ve seen.

I suppose I’m open to working a bit harder if the money is right because I’m paying so aggressively on my loans in an attempt to pay them off 3-4 years

 

[Old&InTheWay]

15 days off equals 150 hours in this case which is almost 4 weeks, so a little better than it appears at first glance.

 

[deleted1100659]

15 days off equals 150 hours in this case which is almost 4 weeks, so a little better than it appears at first glance.

Isnt it 3 weeks?

 

[trophyhusband]

15 days off equals 150 hours in this case which is almost 4 weeks, so a little better than it appears at first glance.

Not necessarily, it depends on how they accrue their PTO. If everyone isn't working a 10 hour day then they might accrue only 8 hours for everyone in which case that 15 days is in actuality 12 days since you need to take 10 hours of PTO for each day. That's a good question for them to ask since it's always good to know how the PTO is accrued.

 

[Psychresy]

All very good points- the one positive is it has a fair salary supposedly in 250k-270k range and monthly productivity bonuses as well as performance bonuses every six months but awaiting the details of how to get those which is supposed to amount to anywhere from 70-130k total depending on productivity achieved. Sounds like good compensation but I guess I’ll see more of the details

Of note all their clinics have really good reviews which seems rare for psych clinics from what I’ve seen.

I suppose I’m open to working a bit harder if the money is right because I’m paying so aggressively on my loans in an attempt to pay them off 3-4 years

I'm thinking like you in that I want to work hard and get my loans paid off fast. My thought is to do strictly locums which seems like it pays at least 75% more than a salaried job. Have you considered this, at least initially?

Jobs paying 2-260/hr seem to be pretty easily found on job boards.

 

[deleted1100659]

Not necessarily, it depends on how they accrue their PTO. If everyone isn't working a 10 hour day then they might accrue only 8 hours for everyone in which case that 15 days is in actuality 12 days since you need to take 10 hours of PTO for each day. That's a good question for them to ask since it's always good to know how the PTO is accrued.

That is a very, very good point. Its 120 hours PTO actually, i just convereted it to 15 days thinking of it as 8 hour days but you're absolutely right

 

[deleted1100659]

I'm thinking like you in that I want to work hard and get my loans paid off fast. My thought is to do strictly locums which seems like it pays at least 75% more than a salaried job. Have you considered this, at least initially?

Jobs paying 2-260/hr seem to be pretty easily found on job boards.

i considered it, im a bit nervous as to the reason they're paying so high and if its going to be a crap show if i were to do one of these jobs

 

[comp1]

Concur with using the VA as your anchor point for reasonable benefits. I'm not sure what that 401k limitation is, but sounds super sketchy. Make sure there's never a non-compete in any contracts, of course.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

All very good points- the one positive is it has a fair salary supposedly in 250k-270k range and monthly productivity bonuses as well as performance bonuses every six months but awaiting the details of how to get those which is supposed to amount to anywhere from 70-130k total depending on productivity achieved. Sounds like good compensation but I guess I’ll see more of the details

Of note all their clinics have really good reviews which seems rare for psych clinics from what I’ve seen.

I suppose I’m open to working a bit harder if the money is right because I’m paying so aggressively on my loans in an attempt to pay them off 3-4 years

lol "really good reviews" doesn't always equal "good care" especially in psychiatry. I mean it's possible to be well rated and provide good care but definitely want to make sure you get a sense of culture of any place you work first and how autonomous you'll be...if they're gonna hound you because adult patients are complaining that you wouldn't hand them a stimulant the first visit when they told you they DEFINITELY had ADHD, yeah you're not gonna have a good time (unless that's your practice pattern of course).

 

[deleted1100659]

lol "really good reviews" doesn't always equal "good care" especially in psychiatry. I mean it's possible to be well rated and provide good care but definitely want to make sure you get a sense of culture of any place you work first and how autonomous you'll be...if they're gonna hound you because adult patients are complaining that you wouldn't hand them a stimulant the first visit when they told you they DEFINITELY had ADHD, yeah you're not gonna have a good time (unless that's your practice pattern of course).

I know what you mean; but just saying by comparison, most psych facilities ive looked into during the job search have had like 1-2 star ratings with abysmal reviews. Not that good reviews=good company, but if somewhere has 200 one star reviews, surely they cant all be bad patients and the clinic may have front staff issues or other administrative issues.

 

[Psychresy]

i considered it, im a bit nervous as to the reason they're paying so high and if its going to be a crap show if i were to do one of these jobs

Understandable. I guess the good thing with locums is you can bounce if it's terrible. If it's at all bearable one of those jobs could probably knock out your loans in one year.

 

[PsyDr]

August on the Cape used to be standard.

A Rite of August Shrinks Away for Some New Yorkers (Published 2016)

The death of the August vacation for psychotherapists underlines the cultural decline of the therapeutic profession in the life of New York.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Sushirolls]

Personally I'd be more suspicious of a clinic with amazing reviews than a clinic with abysmal.
Psych is a field that is rife with conflict.
Discord between patient wants of controlled substance and appropriateness. Wants for forms/disability/ESL letters. Wants for certain diagnoses. The list goes on and on.

So this clinic is either making "providers" bend to their will and prescribe/do whatever the patients customer want.
Or they are cooking their reviews, and getting a bunch of fake comments from people.
Or they have some sort of incentivized rating system to get people to do reviews with bait of XYZ benefit.
Or they have an office manager calling up every bad review and doing/saying/offering anything they can to get them to take down a bad review.

 

[deleted1100659]

Personally I'd be more suspicious of a clinic with amazing reviews than a clinic with abysmal.
Psych is a field that is rife with conflict.
Discord between patient wants of controlled substance and appropriateness. Wants for forms/disability/ESL letters. Wants for certain diagnoses. The list goes on and on.

So this clinic is either making "providers" bend to their will and prescribe/do whatever the patients customer want.
Or they are cooking their reviews, and getting a bunch of fake comments from people.
Or they have some sort of incentivized rating system to get people to do reviews with bait of XYZ benefit.
Or they have an office manager calling up every bad review and doing/saying/offering anything they can to get them to take down a bad review.

This is true. The reviewing accounts are definitely legit, i looked at them. They do have some bad reviews but mainly good ones. Hard to say. I have an upcoming video interview I guess that will tell me quite a bit more based upon my interaction. Ive found these talks usually give me a vibe about a company I can sense how the clinic is operated based on volume/pt alloted time/policies/etc.

Providers look like theyre sticking around so that is somewhat reassuing

 

[clozareal]

Ideally, 4 weeks of vacation plus holidays/sick days for a salaried job, with additional days added each year as a retention bonus. Some inpatient jobs are offering 12 weeks of vacation as 1.0 FTE.

Enrollment into 401k should be the day you get hired. Bonus for employer match 3%. Extra bonus for employer match up to 10%. Super extra bonus for employer contribution to retirement without a match.

The 4x10 schedule is common so I wouldn't consider that an extra perk.

 

[WisNeuro]

Something you may want to clarify is whether or not you get federal holidays off and/or if you have to use your PTO on those days. Seen it both ways.

 

[Ironspy]

That is a very, very good point. Its 120 hours PTO actually, i just convereted it to 15 days thinking of it as 8 hour days but you're absolutely right

So it’s 12 days? 20 days/year plus major holidays is my minimum

 

[Mass Effect]

So it’s 12 days? 20 days/year plus major holidays is my minimum

And SEPARATE paid sick days. The way this is worded, it sounds like the OP has 12 days total for paid time off and 10 more days that are unpaid. That means if you catch Covid (or even the flu) and take off for a week, you only have a week of paid time off left for the whole year.

How do employers get away with this crap? OP, don't do it.

 

[Psychresy]

And SEPARATE paid sick days. The way this is worded, it sounds like the OP has 12 days total for paid time off and 10 more days that are unpaid. That means if you catch Covid (or even the flu) and take off for a week, you only have a week of paid time off left for the whole year.

How do employers get away with this crap? OP, don't do it.

Yeah this is absolute BS. Don't work for anyone who isn't giving you more time off. Better yet, work for yourself and take off when you want.

 

[Ironspy]

And SEPARATE paid sick days. The way this is worded, it sounds like the OP has 12 days total for paid time off and 10 more days that are unpaid. That means if you catch Covid (or even the flu) and take off for a week, you only have a week of paid time off left for the whole year.

How do employers get away with this crap? OP, don't do it.

Yes. Sick days always separate. Otherwise there’s pressure to work while sick. Hard pass

 

[Merovinge]

Yes. Sick days always separate. Otherwise there’s pressure to work while sick. Hard pass

I used to think this, but I actually disagree now. If PTO is inflated a few days to allow a few sick days, you get the benefit if you do not get sick of having more time-off. With paid sick days there is an unconscious bias towards using them. Nothing wrong with that system but I don't think reasonable PTO banks w/o sick leave should be a hard pass.

For me, I want a minimum of 20 PTO, 6 holidays, 5 CME with expectation of PTO expanding over time as retention or just starting higher. If you are expecting VA level benefits at any employed spot, many places will laugh you away or just be unable to come close to that. I accepted a job w/ 15 pto year 1, 20 year 2-3, 25 year 4-5, negotiation year 6 (+paid holidays) because I expect to be at it for several years or ideally longer. It didn't meet my own minimum for the first year but the rest of the job made it worth it to me.

 

[Mass Effect]

I used to think this, but I actually disagree now. If PTO is inflated a few days to allow a few sick days, you get the benefit if you do not get sick of having more time-off. With paid sick days there is an unconscious bias towards using them. Nothing wrong with that system but I don't think reasonable PTO banks w/o sick leave should be a hard pass.

For me, I want a minimum of 20 PTO, 6 holidays, 5 CME with expectation of PTO expanding over time as retention or just starting higher. If you are expecting VA level benefits at any employed spot, many places will laugh you away or just be unable to come close to that. I accepted a job w/ 15 pto year 1, 20 year 2-3, 25 year 4-5, negotiation year 6 (+paid holidays) because I expect to be at it for several years or ideally longer. It didn't meet my own minimum for the first year but the rest of the job made it worth it to me.

Unless you're a partner in your own private practice, there's no reason to settle for 15 days PTO, especially if that also includes sick days.

 

[jbomba]

Do people feel it is wrong to use all sick days even if you're not "sick"? Personally, I will use every single PTO I have, sick or otherwise. If you force me, I'm going to call it a mental health day/days, but I'm using it. Do others not do this?

 

[Psych19]

Do people feel it is wrong to use all sick days even if you're not "sick"? Personally, I will use every single PTO I have, sick or otherwise. If you force me, I'm going to call it a mental health day/days, but I'm using it. Do others not do this?

That might depend on whether you do inpatient or outpatient work. If you're doing inpatient work, someone has to cover and see your patients for you at the last minute, which seems unfair to the other person.

 

[When is graduation again?]

I'm thinking like you in that I want to work hard and get my loans paid off fast. My thought is to do strictly locums which seems like it pays at least 75% more than a salaried job. Have you considered this, at least initially?

Jobs paying 2-260/hr seem to be pretty easily found on job boards.

I'm actually taking this approach. I decided to keep my future job as a contract gig to maximize profits, since most of the employed benefits I can get through my wife or in a way that's more tailored to my needs on my own. It's certainly not a route a lot of people would be comfortable with, but I think the upside is larger, if you're willing to do it.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

That might depend on whether you do inpatient or outpatient work. If you're doing inpatient work, someone has to cover and see your patients for you at the last minute, which seems unfair to the other person.

lol and if you do outpatient work you're probably cancelling on an entire day of patients...which also seems unfair to the patients but I guess whatever floats your boat

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I'm actually taking this approach. I decided to keep my future job as a contract gig to maximize profits, since most of the employed benefits I can get through my wife or in a way that's more tailored to my needs on my own. It's certainly not a route a lot of people would be comfortable with, but I think the upside is larger, if you're willing to do it.

Can definitely make significantly more doing 1099 work than W2 work depending on personal circumstance and where you're doing the work (ex. health insurance in some states is much more expensive than others, some people's spouses get much better benefits than others).

 

[Mass Effect]

Do people feel it is wrong to use all sick days even if you're not "sick"? Personally, I will use every single PTO I have, sick or otherwise. If you force me, I'm going to call it a mental health day/days, but I'm using it. Do others not do this?

Yes I feel it's wrong, but it also depends on what type of work you're doing. Only time I would use a sick day when I'm not really sick is if it was a research day or admin day. Otherwise, I'm working because if I don't, someone has to cover if it's an inpatient day and if it's outpatient, then my patients are canceled and rebooked, in some cases a few months later. Not really fair to the patient who's been waiting for the appt and has likely already taken a day off work in order to make it to the appt or is coming from far away.

I myself had a PCP appt last week at 8:30 am and it was canceled after I already arrived because my PCP was sick. The place was an hour drive with traffic so I left around 7:15 to be safe. Got there around 8:15ish and got the call as I was walking into the clinic. I understood but it was a pain for me. I now have to take more time off work to make it on another day and then drive that hour again and hope my PCP is there when I arrive. I wouldn't do that to a patient unless I really was sick.

Now with that in mind, at some places you can use sick days for doctor's appts so you could do that and then blow off the rest of the day. No patients impacted since you put in for the time in advance and no colleagues have to cover for you if you're doing outpatient.

If you're inpatient, then work something out with your co-workers if you like to use up all your sick days. If they do this too, then it should work out and everyone's happy. Otherwise, not fair to the people who have to pick up the slack.

 

[deleted1100659]

im going to talk with them this week, but seems like its pretty unanimous and confirms exactly what i was thinking- PTO is a bit too weak and i want retirement from day 1, i think waiting a year for that is stingy of them. I think around 20 days of PTO is what I was looking at as well, plus federal holidays.

 

[Stagg737]

Do people feel it is wrong to use all sick days even if you're not "sick"? Personally, I will use every single PTO I have, sick or otherwise. If you force me, I'm going to call it a mental health day/days, but I'm using it. Do others not do this?

Depends on the position. I mostly agree with Mass Effect, I think if you're on an inpatient or consult service where others can cover for you fairly easily then you should take as many days as you can. However, if you're the sole person working or if you're outpatient and it's going to cause significant problems for your patients and colleagues I think you should be much more judicious with using sick days when not actually sick.

Imo it also depends on what you can roll over and if you can "sell" days off. Our hospital allows attendings to "sell back" unused sick or vacation days or to donate them to colleagues. It's a nice little incentive for not using them unless necessary. If you can roll days over to the next year, it's also a nice incentive not to take those days off. Again, really comes down to your set up though.

That might depend on whether you do inpatient or outpatient work. If you're doing inpatient work, someone has to cover and see your patients for you at the last minute, which seems unfair to the other person.

I agree with others that it seems more unfair to outpatients who will have their appointments cancelled and have to reschedule months later. I don't mind covering a colleague for a day on the inpatient side. I get pretty annoyed when one of my own appointments is cancelled same day though, especially when I've waited months to be seen...

 

[WisNeuro]

im going to talk with them this week, but seems like its pretty unanimous and confirms exactly what i was thinking- PTO is a bit too weak and i want retirement from day 1, i think waiting a year for that is stingy of them. I think around 20 days of PTO is what I was looking at as well, plus federal holidays.

Yeah, retirement off the bat is a hard line for me. If they want to encourage retention there, they should be including some sort of vesting % structure over time, not eliminating retirement contributions for an entire year.

 

[Merovinge]

Yeah, retirement off the bat is a hard line for me. If they want to encourage retention there, they should be including some sort of vesting % structure over time, not eliminating retirement contributions for an entire year.

I think, but definitely am not 100% sure, that some places do this out of plan requirements. It makes no sense to limit contributions if they don't vest for x years as it costs the company essentially nothing if you do not retain through the vesting period. Super weird place to cost pinch if that is why it is being done. 401k's are among the most important benefit for employed high income professionals.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think, but definitely am not 100% sure, that some places do this out of plan requirements. It makes no sense to limit contributions if they don't vest for x years as it costs the company essentially nothing if you do not retain through the vesting period. Super weird place to cost pinch if that is why it is being done. 401k's are among the most important benefit for employed high income professionals.

If so, seems like a poor choice of plan by the organization. Throughout the years, I only applied to one place that had a similar "401k kicks in after 1 year" thing, but the other benefits were also not great. I used their offer as leverage to negotiate another offer, but never would have taken that former offer anyway. Seems like a very poor decision when it comes to recruitment of doctoral providers. Especially when it is far from the norm in the industry.

 

[Merovinge]

If so, seems like a poor choice of plan by the organization. Throughout the years, I only applied to one place that had a similar "401k kicks in after 1 year" thing, but the other benefits were also not great. I used their offer as leverage to negotiate another offer, but never would have taken that former offer anyway. Seems like a very poor decision when it comes to recruitment of doctoral providers. Especially when it is far from the norm in the industry.

I completely agree, but many companies: A) have horrid (incompetence or malice) management B) have management that has personal ties to people who manage the investment accounts C) both A and B. Until very recently many plans had 401k's with absurd fund options, terrible expense ratios, etc. It is only because of laws allowing companies to be sued over bad 401k plans (thanks big government) that most are now good.

 

[WisNeuro]

I completely agree, but many companies: A) have horrid (incompetence or malice) management B) have management that has personal ties to people who manage the investment accounts C) both A and B. Until very recently many plans had 401k's with absurd fund options, terrible expense ratios, etc. It is only because of laws allowing companies to be sued over bad 401k plans (thanks big government) that most are now good.

I guess I was fortunate that the VA options were good while I was there and that my non-VA job had a good range of Vanguard funds in our retirement plan.