What is a PsyD program like?

[Sanman]

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Silly Sanman, that's what high interest business loans are for.

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[quickpsych]

Wow I can not thank you enough for your response and the way you laid everything out! You answered many of my questions and explained them the best way I have heard! I appreciate you taking your time to do this and help a confused student at a cross roads! Did you do it full time or part time while pursuing your doctorate? Is there a benefit to doing it either way besides the timeline obviously! Lastly, my main goal is to one day have my own private practice and provide therapy/counseling to my clients, with this in mind is just sticking to my masters the best bet? I have heard for what I want to do I can just do it with a masters but if I can make significantly more income having a doctorate in private practice vs a masters I would probably take the time to get the doctorate and not leave any potential earnings on the table, what are you thoughts? Thanks again for all your help & feedback, means a lot!

No problem, I hope it was helpful!

I did full time. I would not personally go the part-time route. If it is of the same rigor and quality of a full time program, it would take much longer to complete anyways. Also most part time programs are "online" or part of stand alone "professional" schools that frankly do not have a good reputation (you may see them mentioned by name in various threads). Some professional schools in some fields are fine (i.e. medicine), but there's something to be said about having the resources and integration of a full university with the program. Another consideration is the cohort model works best in a full time program; being alongside the same small group for 4-6 years can really make the tough journey a bit easier. Plus good support and networking. Many full time programs are upfront with the time commitment and some do design their schedules so you could work part time but once practicums, internships, dissertation comes into play it gets harder; also semester to semester some courses may be at different times of the day and some may require longer hours than others.

If you are solely interested in therapy and mostly in a private setting, IMO a good quality masters in Clinical/Counseling Psych or in Clinical Social Work would allow for that. However, I would note a few caveats. You wouldn't be providing assessments/evaluations and you would be heavily reliant on show rates. You'd also need to see more clients per week on average than a doctoral level in private practice. Many LPCs and LCSWs end up in settings like community health early on which is fine but very low pay. Those who have moved into private practice often build the practice with others, sometimes in different fields. For example I know one LPC that focuses on eating disorders and body dysmorphia and she teamed up with a nutritionist to offer a more comprehensive "one stop" experience. I know another that was interested in sex therapy and LBGTQ populations, eventually started their own practice but brought in other therapists with expertise in those areas. To be honest if you want your own practice you'll likely start out on the side with it while working elsewhere; you'll eventually need to look into having others working in your practice to offset costs and will in essence be managing a small practice. Many simply find good already established group practices and build caseloads there, which is often easier because you do not have to generate and build your own referral bases.

As others have said it is incredibly expensive and time consuming to build a practice from scratch (and psychologists have the same problem but can recoup costs faster with assessments, evaluations, higher hourly, etc). One course in my doctoral program had a portion of the course dedicated solely to business management and practice building; it's expensive and you're reliant on ensuring a steady flow of cases. You also end up responsible for your own healthcare, own retirement (often with no match), self-employment taxes, operating expenses, advertising expenses, etc. Many group practices as they grow are able to offer some benefits.

Another big consideration is options. At the doctoral level, especially when licensed, you will have many more opportunities and diversity in the roles and work you can take on. At that level you can offer assessment/evaluation services alongside therapy, earn more per hour, and you have likely more opportunities if you choose to teach, engage in research, etc. A masters level clinician or therapist better love either straight therapy planning to fill 30-35 slots a week (assuming some no shows and cancels) and/or be interested in "moving up" to management in a variety of managed care/mental health agencies.

Money isn't everything of course and many will tell you that the debt needed for a PsyD is going to cost more than a Masters, but I think there's more opportunities and diversity of work available as a psychologist vs a masters level therapist. And more opportunities to earn more income both in terms of hourly rates and jobs available.

Sorry if it's a lot in one post, but the TLDR: If you want to teach, do assessments/evaluations, make more per hour on therapy then get the doctorate. If you love therapy, hate assessments/evaluations (which is ok!), then a masters is fine. Realistically look for a group practice to join rather than trying to build your own practice from ground up unless you have a niche that the market in your area has a need for.

 

[quickpsych]

If your main goal is private practice, at some point you will need to be able to spend thousands of dollars (office, furniture, phone lines, etc) and not have income come back in for months. If you are taking out $250k in loans for a PsyD and plan to pay them back on a 20 year timeline, how do you plan to manage all of those student loan payments while laying out this extra cash for a business?

Not to mention, most people (doctoral and masters) who started their own practice worked 4-5 days a week somewhere else while dedicating 1-2 days a week on the side for their practice until the practice was big enough to sustain consistent cash flow to not only cover operating expenses but also being able to pay themselves. I received sold advice a few years ago that said "find a job that pays benefits and stable income, you can always pick up some clients or cases on the side at a practice if you want." Not for everyone, but it sure takes pressure off when you have your health insurance and bills paid; then if you want to start a practice there's much less pressure to "have to be profitable quickly."

On the 20 year loan repayment, an important note is that many repayment plans (federal loans) will forgive the remaining balance after 20-25 years of payments (even IBR at $0 if applicable), but may be responsible for a tax liability the year the remaining balance is forgiven (although depending on how much you took out that might still end up being cheaper than the full balance you would have paid).

 

[mindfulany]

No problem, I hope it was helpful!

I did full time. I would not personally go the part-time route. If it is of the same rigor and quality of a full time program, it would take much longer to complete anyways. Also most part time programs are "online" or part of stand alone "professional" schools that frankly do not have a good reputation (you may see them mentioned by name in various threads). Some professional schools in some fields are fine (i.e. medicine), but there's something to be said about having the resources and integration of a full university with the program. Another consideration is the cohort model works best in a full time program; being alongside the same small group for 4-6 years can really make the tough journey a bit easier. Plus good support and networking. Many full time programs are upfront with the time commitment and some do design their schedules so you could work part time but once practicums, internships, dissertation comes into play it gets harder; also semester to semester some courses may be at different times of the day and some may require longer hours than others.

If you are solely interested in therapy and mostly in a private setting, IMO a good quality masters in Clinical/Counseling Psych or in Clinical Social Work would allow for that. However, I would note a few caveats. You wouldn't be providing assessments/evaluations and you would be heavily reliant on show rates. You'd also need to see more clients per week on average than a doctoral level in private practice. Many LPCs and LCSWs end up in settings like community health early on which is fine but very low pay. Those who have moved into private practice often build the practice with others, sometimes in different fields. For example I know one LPC that focuses on eating disorders and body dysmorphia and she teamed up with a nutritionist to offer a more comprehensive "one stop" experience. I know another that was interested in sex therapy and LBGTQ populations, eventually started their own practice but brought in other therapists with expertise in those areas. To be honest if you want your own practice you'll likely start out on the side with it while working elsewhere; you'll eventually need to look into having others working in your practice to offset costs and will in essence be managing a small practice. Many simply find good already established group practices and build caseloads there, which is often easier because you do not have to generate and build your own referral bases.

As others have said it is incredibly expensive and time consuming to build a practice from scratch (and psychologists have the same problem but can recoup costs faster with assessments, evaluations, higher hourly, etc). One course in my doctoral program had a portion of the course dedicated solely to business management and practice building; it's expensive and you're reliant on ensuring a steady flow of cases. You also end up responsible for your own healthcare, own retirement (often with no match), self-employment taxes, operating expenses, advertising expenses, etc. Many group practices as they grow are able to offer some benefits.

Another big consideration is options. At the doctoral level, especially when licensed, you will have many more opportunities and diversity in the roles and work you can take on. At that level you can offer assessment/evaluation services alongside therapy, earn more per hour, and you have likely more opportunities if you choose to teach, engage in research, etc. A masters level clinician or therapist better love either straight therapy planning to fill 30-35 slots a week (assuming some no shows and cancels) and/or be interested in "moving up" to management in a variety of managed care/mental health agencies.

Money isn't everything of course and many will tell you that the debt needed for a PsyD is going to cost more than a Masters, but I think there's more opportunities and diversity of work available as a psychologist vs a masters level therapist. And more opportunities to earn more income both in terms of hourly rates and jobs available.

Sorry if it's a lot in one post, but the TLDR: If you want to teach, do assessments/evaluations, make more per hour on therapy then get the doctorate. If you love therapy, hate assessments/evaluations (which is ok!), then a masters is fine. Realistically look for a group practice to join rather than trying to build your own practice from ground up unless you have a niche that the market in your area has a need for.

Do not apologize one bit, I totally appreciate your help and experience/insight! I think I am now for sure leaning towards pursuing the doctorate as I want the ability to do assessments, have more opportunities outside of solely therapy, and have a higher ceiling for income! Your info has really helped and been very insightful and made me feel less unsure about the process. I have two other questions if you wouldn’t mind, 1.) I have heard about a “stipend” you can get from funded programs that actually allows you to earn some money while in school, could you explain that? How you qualify for it, what schools has it, and is it like a loan that needs repaid eventually? 2.) do you have any more advice/tips on applying, finding a program, salary, or the career as a whole? Thank you so much for your time and helping out a confused student!

 

[WisNeuro]

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[summerbabe]

I have two other questions if you wouldn’t mind, 1.) I have heard about a “stipend” you can get from funded programs that actually allows you to earn some money while in school, could you explain that? How you qualify for it, what schools has it, and is it like a loan that needs repaid eventually? 2.) do you have any more advice/tips on applying, finding a program, salary, or the career as a whole?

In a typical funded PhD, you receive a full tuition waiver and in exchange for providing a service (teaching or TAing a class, being an RA, doing something admin for the psych dept), a monthly stipend and possibly student health insurance. This does not need to be repaid. Mine was about $750/month in a super low cost of living area. Others can be significantly higher - it depends on the specific school/dept.

If a program offers this, there will usually be some wording on their website regarding funding. Some programs are fully funded (meaning you're covered each year of attendance), some are partially funded (meaning you may be funded for a certain period like your 1st 2 years but not after or you can get a tuition waiver but no stipend), and some may be fully unfunded (but may offer 1 or 2 students a year to competitively apply for funding).

Note, it's always possible that a funded program can run into financial difficulties (usually due to sudden university budget cuts) but programs that typically offer full funding will usually work really, really hard to figure out ways to still support their students.

For more info, get yourself a copy of the Insider's Guide to Graduate Programs in Clinical and Counseling Psychology (a slightly older version is probably fine). Also check out Mitch's Advice for Grad School in Clinical Psych.

 

[mindfulany]

*DOCTORAL APPLICANTS READ FIRST* Helpful Threads

ALL posts about your statistics, chances of getting into a program, and or related topics MUST be posted in the WAMC: What are my chances thread. DO NOT make your own thread. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Data on...

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Thank you!!

 

[mindfulany]

In a typical funded PhD, you receive a full tuition waiver and in exchange for providing a service (teaching or TAing a class, being an RA, doing something admin for the psych dept), a monthly stipend and possibly student health insurance. This does not need to be repaid. Mine was about $750/month in a super low cost of living area. Others can be significantly higher - it depends on the specific school/dept.

If a program offers this, there will usually be some wording on their website regarding funding. Some programs are fully funded (meaning you're covered each year of attendance), some are partially funded (meaning you may be funded for a certain period like your 1st 2 years but not after or you can get a tuition waiver but no stipend), and some may be fully unfunded (but may offer 1 or 2 students a year to competitively apply for funding).

Note, it's always possible that a funded program can run into financial difficulties (usually due to sudden university budget cuts) but programs that typically offer full funding will usually work really, really hard to figure out ways to still support their students.

For more info, get yourself a copy of the Insider's Guide to Graduate Programs in Clinical and Counseling Psychology (a slightly older version is probably fine). Also check out Mitch's Advice for Grad School in Clinical Psych.

Thank you so much! I will review both things you suggested! Appreciate the help