What is a PsyD program like?

[mindfulany]

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Hey there, I have just a couple of questions that I can't seem to get the answer to anywhere online and thought this would be a great place to ask. I am finishing up a master's degree in Mental Health Counseling and now considering extending my education by attempting to get into a PsyD program. I really only have an interest in PsyD programs as I have much more interest in clinical settings than research settings so if you have earned a PsyD or are in the process please share your experience.

1.) What are PsyD programs like? I have only seen vague answers to this and understand it varies greatly based on your specialties and different schools but what are the basic expectations I can have? For example, medical school is usually broken down as the first two years are in the classroom and the next two are more hands-on experience and then you have a residency before completion, is a PsyD program similar to this or what can I expect for the years I am in the program?

2.) What is the time investment? I know that you have to spend a lot of time to earn a doctorate but I have seen some say they start working part/full time counseling clients with their masters to earn a living while also pursuing their doctorate. Is it reasonable to have a part/full-time job while earning your doctorate? Will you have time for a social life or travel?

3.) I've seen some say they "earned more" in graduate school than they did before starting school working a part-time job. Do you get paid for some of your experiences, practicums, or internships or what do they mean by that?

Thanks for your help and sharing your experience with me, it will help a lot! Have a great day!

 

[R. Matey]

What are you hoping to do with a Psy.D. that you can't do with a master's degree?

 

[WisNeuro]

As to point #2 some people do work in doctoral programs, but usually not in a side private practice. One thing to consider here is that any clinical hours accrued that way will not count towards APPIC or license hours.

 

[mindfulany]

What are you hoping to do with a Psy.D. that you can't do with a master's degree?

Have the ability to do assessments, evaluations, hopefully eventually have the ability to prescribe as needed, and have potential for a higher income in private practice are my main drivers!

 

[R. Matey]

Have the ability to do assessments, evaluations, hopefully eventually have the ability to prescribe as needed, and have potential for a higher income in private practice are my main drivers!

OK, note though that a clinically balanced Ph.D. program can help you accomplish many of these goals. It's a misnomer borne out of clever marketing that Psy.D. programs offer more clinically than Ph.D. programs.

To your earlier questions:

1. Psy.D. programs operate much like master's degrees in terms of having a heavy coursework plus a practicum. Your last year is an internship year where you intern full time at a training site; hopefully one that is APA accredited. If you go to one of the few funded Psy.D. programs out there you can expect research and/or teaching/service responsibilities as part of your experience. Check the doctoral applicant thread here and the insider's guide for more information on some of the training experiences.

2. Doctoral programs are typically full time with the ever present option of doing more to further your career (e.g. secondary prac, research project, etc). Because of this, many people find it difficult to work outside of a doctoral program. I'm also not sure you can bill insurance as an unlicensed mental health counselor--at least this has been true in every state I've worked in.

3. Many programs forbid paid practicum sites for a variety of reasons. Many competitive training are unpaid. The year-long internship at the end of your training is paid a small stipend.

 

[PsyDr]

Broad strokes

1) You go to class for ~12hrs/week. The professors say they're assigning you another 24hrs of reading and writing. That estimate is HIGHLY dependent on how you work and read (e.g., you're assigned to read 100 pages of something in a class).

2) Around year 2(?) they add practica for another 20hrs/week. Class demands are still the same. So you have to manage the expectations of the people grading your papers, with the expectations of the people supervising your clinical work. The work takes longer because you are inexperienced at testing, and writing clinically.

3) If you add in lab, call it another 10hrs/week. Publication deadlines and grant work means they don't care about how busy you are in practica.

 

[bluecolourskies]

Broad strokes

1) You go to class for ~12hrs/week. The professors say they're assigning you another 24hrs of reading and writing. That estimate is HIGHLY dependent on how you work and read (e.g., you're assigned to read 100 pages of something in a class).

2) Around year 2(?) they add practica for another 20hrs/week. Class demands are still the same. So you have to manage the expectations of the people grading your papers, with the expectations of the people supervising your clinical work. The work takes longer because you are inexperienced at testing, and writing clinically.

3) If you add in lab, call it another 10hrs/week. Publication deadlines and grant work means they don't care about how busy you are in practica.

you forgot to add in time for crying and swearing, but that can be done simultaneously while reading and writing.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

To add to PsyDr's post above and related to some of the prior posts, if you attend a funded program, you'll also have obligations related to your funding source, which typically involve TA (teaching assistant) or RA (research assistant) work. Those probably clock in at around 10 to 20 hours per week. This may be included in the 10 hours/week that PsyDr mentioned and/or your practicum hours, but in many cases, will be in addition to other responsibilities. For some Psy.D. programs, the research expectation may not be there, and funding sources may not be available. There are also some Ph.D. programs in which funding sources aren't certain, either ever or after the first couple years.

By about year 3, your coursework will probably start decreasing, but other responsibilities like practica, research, and fulfilling other school requirements (e.g., specialty exam, dissertation) will more than pick up the slack.

If you plan to get through the program and into internship in four to five years, the workload tends to be pretty significant, and I suspect most folks would have trouble with anything other than part-part-time employment. Part of this is because in addition to fulfilling your bare-minimum obligations, you need to make yourself competitive relative to other internship applicants once you start applying for those. If you stretch things out to six or even seven years, you'll have a lighter schedule, but then you're stuck in school longer, which starts to look bad on internship applications.

 

[Sanman]

What is a PsyD program like? It's pretty similar to a five year minimum security prison sentence, except they don't provide free meals and you start paying your debt to society once you get out.

 

[R. Matey]

What is a PsyD program like? It's pretty similar to a five year minimum security prison sentence, except they don't provide free meals and you start paying your debt to society once you get out.

I'd wear this as a T-shirt.

 

[Lukewarm Counselor]

What are you hoping to do with a Psy.D. that you can't do with a master's degree?

My thoughts exactly. What advantage does a PsyD have over an MA when one has only interest in clinical settings?

OP: do you have interest in original research or teaching? Assessments?

Have you considered looking for a postmasters fellowship and get paid for additional clinical training?

 

[WisNeuro]

Have you considered looking for a postmasters fellowship and get paid for additional clinical training?

The USPS has paid fellowships?

 

[R. Matey]

The USPS has paid fellowships?

Haven't you heard of going postal? Someone had do something about it.

 

[mindfulany]

My thoughts exactly. What advantage does a PsyD have over an MA when one has only interest in clinical settings?

OP: do you have interest in original research or teaching? Assessments?

Have you considered looking for a postmasters fellowship and get paid for additional clinical training?

I am interested in providing both assessments and evaluations, also not that it is all about the money but I have heard that a practitioner with a doctorate can bill insurance at a little higher rate than solely with a masters so the additional income is also enticing

 

[PsyDuck90]

The expectations of any worthwhile PsyD program (university-based with small cohorts) is going to be about the same as a balanced PhD program. You have classes, research, clinical practicums, and possibly teaching, TAing, or some sort of other graduate assistantship. There isn't too much time to work outside of the program given all the responsibilities for the program itself. In most PsyDs, you spend the first 4-5 years on campus doing all of the above and then a final year is a year-long internship.

 

[Lukewarm Counselor]

I have heard that a practitioner with a doctorate can bill insurance at a little higher rate than solely with a masters so the additional income is also enticing

It's a wash. When one factors in the cost of additional tuition, plus the lost income of these added years, any higher billing rates will usually not become viable for decades -- if ever. In some cases, the doctorate may cost money in the end.

I'll leave some of the others on here to expand more on this. Also, a doctorate degree is not what demands the higher rate; it is the license, itself, that gets the rate. A clinical psyche license does require a very specific doctorate degree, obviously.

Master's level clinicians can be trained in many assessments. The more projective assessments are often more reserved for our doctorate counterparts.

Choosing to pursue a doctorate is a very personal decision and requires a ton of sacrifice of time/money/effort.

Unfortunately, going from MA in counseling to PsyD is a terribly inefficient route. You'll only shave 9-12 months off at best, from what I've heard.

Wish you the best whatever you decide, friend.

 

[PsyDr]

yeah, the psyd is the same as a masters degree. They just put us in a room, playing ping pong for another 5 years.

 

[Lukewarm Counselor]

Just to clarify, when you say PsyD, do you mean funded, university-based, small cohort model, or large, online/for-profit model?

To be blunt, from what I hear, the online programs are basically glorified master's programs with a $100k+ price tag...

If you can qualify for a legit, funded, APA accredited program, and you're willing to relocate across the country multiple times, and forfeit several years of income, then it may be viable.

But if doing a non-accredited program with no funding is a different matter entirely.

I guess I just struggle with understanding why one would take a route from counseling to psyche. It is so inefficient. If a counselor desired a doctorate, the the CACREP PhD in counselor education/supervision seems like the natural route to me.

Just my $.02...

 

[Lukewarm Counselor]

yeah, the psyd is the same as a masters degree. They just put us in a room, playing ping pong for another 5 years.

I'm in!!

 

[PsyDr]

Just to clarify, when you say PsyD, do you mean funded, university-based, small cohort model, or large, online/for-profit model?

To be blunt, from what I hear, the online programs are basically glorified master's programs with a $100k+ price tag...

If you can qualify for a legit, funded, APA accredited program, and you're willing to relocate across the country multiple times, and forfeit several years of income, then it may be viable.

But if doing a non-accredited program with no funding is a different matter entirely.

I guess I just struggle with understanding why one would take a route from counseling to psyche. It is so inefficient. If a counselor desired a doctorate, the the CACREP PhD in counselor education/supervision seems like the natural route to me.

Just my $.02...

False equivalence. Psyd program does not equal online programs. There are equal number of BS psychology PhD programs as psyd programs. Either present data to support that postulate, or accept that it’s disingenuous to make that statement.

This entire thing has the same validity as the MD vs DO argument. Some crush it. Some don’t.

The median number of publications is skewed heavily towards psych PhDs. Same for academic achievements. But the SDNer relevant to that metric happens to be a psyd. And if the metric for competition is impact or income, I’ll take all comers.

 

[Lukewarm Counselor]

False equivalence. Psyd program does not equal online programs. There are equal number of BS psychology PhD programs as psyd programs. Either present data to support that postulate, or accept that it’s disingenuous to make that statement.

This entire thing has the same validity as the MD vs DO argument. Some crush it. Some don’t.

The median number of publications is skewed heavily towards psych PhDs. Same for academic achievements. But the SDNer relevant to that metric happens to be a psyd. And if the metric for competition is impact or income, I’ll take all comers.

I was not comparing PsyD to PhDs. That conversation is beyond my pay grade. I never brought up PhDs in clinical Psyche at all, much less presumed a comparison. (Raising eyebrow.) This is a strawman argument.

I simply asked for clarification as to funded vs unfunded in the context of the OP statement regarding billing rates and long-term return on investment. This is a legitimate factor that requires clarification.

Edit/addendum: I respectfully invite you to self-reflect as to what led you to believe my motive was disingenuous. I am not on here to have my motives questioned or challenged. And I have no interest in debating the issue here on a professional forum. (Just setting a clear boundary here.)

Glad to hear the income return on your PsyD is working out for folks;-) But again, let's peek at the ROI for funded/accredited vs unfunded/uncredited, and then let's revisit this again.

 

[YoungFrancis]

Am I correct that most PsyDs require more coursework than PhDs? I assume it’s an attempt to bleed students dry with high tuition even in later years of the program. Also takes the place of time spent on research by adding electives to complete a “concentration,” which is about as useful as completing an undergraduate minor.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

Broad strokes

1) You go to class for ~12hrs/week. The professors say they're assigning you another 24hrs of reading and writing. That estimate is HIGHLY dependent on how you work and read (e.g., you're assigned to read 100 pages of something in a class).

2) Around year 2(?) they add practica for another 20hrs/week. Class demands are still the same. So you have to manage the expectations of the people grading your papers, with the expectations of the people supervising your clinical work. The work takes longer because you are inexperienced at testing, and writing clinically.

3) If you add in lab, call it another 10hrs/week. Publication deadlines and grant work means they don't care about how busy you are in practica.

10 HOURS only? Man, what peace of cake that would have been then.

Kidding, but in reality I was doing lab things bare minimum 20 hours / week, some weeks 30+.

Am I correct that most PsyDs require more coursework than PhDs? I

In my experience, no. It is very program specific past the APA course requirements.

 

[Lukewarm Counselor]

There are equal number of BS psychology PhD programs as psyd programs.

Yep, true story!

 

[WisNeuro]

It's a wash. When one factors in the cost of additional tuition, plus the lost income of these added years, any higher billing rates will usually not become viable for decades -- if ever. In some cases, the doctorate may cost money in the end.

I'll leave some of the others on here to expand more on this. Also, a doctorate degree is not what demands the higher rate; it is the license, itself, that gets the rate. A clinical psyche license does require a very specific doctorate degree, obviously.

Master's level clinicians can be trained in many assessments. The more projective assessments are often more reserved for our doctorate counterparts.

Choosing to pursue a doctorate is a very personal decision and requires a ton of sacrifice of time/money/effort.

Unfortunately, going from MA in counseling to PsyD is a terribly inefficient route. You'll only shave 9-12 months off at best, from what I've heard.

Wish you the best whatever you decide, friend.

Probably depends on how we define "assessment" as many of the billing codes (such as the neuro assessment codes or one example) are not billable by masters level licensure for many payer sources.

 

[Lukewarm Counselor]

Probably depends on how we define "assessment" as many of the billing codes (such as the neuro assessment codes or one example) are not billable by masters level licensure for many payer sources.

True! I encourage the OP to really identify the type and scope of assessments they wish to perform and determine whether it justifies a clinical doctorate.

 

[R. Matey]

yeah, the psyd is the same as a masters degree. They just put us in a room, playing ping pong for another 5 years.

Ah, ok. I see what's going on now. That was probably an unfair characterization. My experiences with Psy.D. programs have largely been the two diploma mills in my area where so-called advanced students seem to have a pretty surface understanding of EPBs and seem to be more technically eclectic (e.g. "My therapuetic approach is a blend of meditative techniques, silent judgment, and straight-up advice") than offering a truly evidenced based practice. But a sweeping pronouncement about all Psy.D. programs everywhere, including the funded ones, is off-kilter.

Edit: That said though, my limited experience is these programs have a higher coursework burden than Ph.D. programs that I'm familiar with and I presumed it was to justify the equivalent length of a doctoral program without the research expectations, but maybe that isn't so generalizable.

 

[PsyDr]

Ah, ok. I see what's going on now. That was probably an unfair characterization.

There are many bad programs out there. I have no issue with them being called out. But it would be disingenuous to say base my opinions about PhDs on Walden's curriculum. Or to say that because Fielding offers online PhDs, all PhDs are online.

I was not comparing PsyD to PhDs. That conversation is beyond my pay grade. I never brought up PhDs in clinical Psyche at all, much less presumed a comparison.

That is fair. I misread your statement.

And I have no interest in debating the issue here on a professional forum. (Just setting a clear boundary here.)

I don't accept boundaries that provide the opportunity to make statements, but prohibits others from questioning the statement.

 

[R. Matey]

There are many bad programs out there. I have no issue with them being called out. But it would be disingenuous to say base my opinions about PhDs on Walden's curriculum. Or to say that because Fielding offers online PhDs, all PhDs are online.

True, totally a hasty generalization on my part. Good looking out.

 

[Lukewarm Counselor]

That is fair. I misread your statement.

All is well, friend.

I don't accept boundaries that provide the opportunity to make statements, but prohibits others from questioning the statement.

I never asked anybody to accept or honor my boundary. I simply stated a boundary of which I myself will not cross. By all means, others are certainly free to enter this territory all they wish; just know I will not enter it with them. Accept/do not accept, it is all the same to me, friends. Let the debate as to my motives begin! It could actually prove quite interesting and amusing, tbh, (can you imagine? haha) though I myself would not engage, per my expressed boundary.

As @PsyDr noted, there are indeed a nearly equal quantity of garbage (unfunded/unaccredited/online) PhD programs out there as there are PsyDs. Perhaps I should have included PhDs in my earlier statement to provide expanded clarity. Predatory for-profit schools are equal opportunity con-artists in this sense, IMO.

To the OP: I just wished, in good faith, to bring this topic up, as you expressed an interest in exploring a return on investment for an earned doctorate degree. A $150K+ price tag will make a big difference, particularly if the program is unaccredited. (And I will leave this subject to others on here with more knowledge to expand the discussion.) Again, as @PsyDr noted earlier, the impact/income metrics for PhD vs PsyD may very well be misleading. (A conversation for another day.) But when we contrast a mountain of debt against this income metric (again, particularly if unaccredited) it will skew the numbers out into the wild wild west! (I strongly suspect a negative correlation with impact as well for the degree mill grads, but I have not personally ever looked at the data.)

To be fair, I do not know your personal situation. By default, I generally presume most MA grads in counseling just dropped $50-70k+/- (sometimes even more) into their degree. If this is indeed the case for you, and you do happen to be considering a program that costs $100k+, then it may become nearly impossible to make a comfortable living. It becomes imperative to do a cost-benefit analysis.

Most MA counseling programs are very practical in nature. It is entirely possible you represent the rare exception where you got lots of direct research experience during your MA program. And you may be competitively positioned for admission into a funded/accredited clinical psychology doctorate program at this time. If this is the case, then much of what I said is irrelevant. But if you indeed plan on borrowing a mountain of money to continue your education into a new/different field (as counseling and psychology are two entirely separate careers), at a professional/for-profit school (or even an accredited but unfunded non-profit), with a hefty price tag, then this may be unwise. It is important to this discussion that we differentiate between funded/accredited and unfunded/unaccredited doctorate (both PsyD and PhD) options.

Again, I guess I just struggle in understanding why a master's level counselor would wish to move into clinical psychology. It is essentially like starting all over again. Very little of your MA program would likely transfer over to a PsyD/PhD in psychology. It is my understanding that @R. Matey took a similar pathway, so he might be able to shed more light on this subject if you have specific questions. It is a terribly inefficient and costly route, though, particularly if one happens to owe a significant debt from your existing MA degree. This is likely why he first asked you what, exactly, you hoped to do with a psychology doctorate that you cannot already do with your MA. There may be good reasons to pursue a PsyD/PhD. But there may not. Only you can make this determination. To me, the first thing to explore is what is it you want to do, that you cannot already do. The second component here is to determine whether it is worth the enormous sacrifice of time and money to be able to do these additional things. At the same time, you must then also be very mindful of things such as accreditation and funding opportunities.

Wish you the best no matter what you decide, @mindfulany!

 

[WisNeuro]

As @PsyDr noted, there are indeed a nearly equal quantity of garbage (unfunded/unaccredited/online) PhD programs out there as there are PsyDs. Perhaps I should have included PhDs in my earlier statement to provide expanded clarity. Predatory for-profit schools are equal opportunity con-artists in this sense, IMO.

While there are the clear garbage PhDs (e.g., Walden, Fielding, few others) the quantity issue is bar far skewed in one direction. Helped somewhat by the closing of the Argosy schools but the scale here is very clearly weighted to one side. Both in number of programs that fit the diploma mill definition, as well as the sheer number of students matriculating through these programs.

That being said, there are definitely very good PsyDs out there that stand on par with the top PhDs, but there is no question that when it comes to sheer number of diploma mills, the PsyD comes out on top.

 

[Lukewarm Counselor]

there are definitely very good PsyDs out there that stand on par with the top PhDs

Agreed 100%! No question about it.

but there is no question that when it comes to sheer number of diploma mills, the PsyD comes out on top.

Interesting. At the same time, perhaps this is why some of the diploma mills are moving towards creating PhD programs? (e.g., after they damage the prestige of one type of degree, they must move on to another by default?)

This is merely anecdotal. But in my area, the prestige between PhD and PsyD is largely considered equal. It seems the good/accredited programs both produce quality researcher-practitioners either way. Most of the PsyDs that I know all have a few pubs to their names. And, as @PsyDr noted, many of them have quite impactful publications at that. To me, the quality of a program is, by far, more important than the initials after a person's name.

 

[R. Matey]

t is my understanding that @R. Matey took a similar pathway, so he might be able to shed more light on this subject if you have specific questions. It is a terribly inefficient and costly route, though, particularly if one happens to owe a significant debt from your existing MA degree.

I was more ferreting out whether the OP wanted to be a therapist that called themselves doctor or a psychologist. Many diploma mill Psy.Ds are indistinguishable from master's level clinicians, IME.

 

[WisNeuro]

Agreed 100%! No question about it.

Interesting. At the same time, perhaps this is why some of the diploma mills are moving towards creating PhD programs? (e.g., after they damage the prestige of one type of degree, they must move on to another by default?)

This is merely anecdotal. But in my area, the prestige between PhD and PsyD is largely considered equal. It seems the good/accredited programs both produce quality researcher-practitioners either way. Most of the PsyDs that I know all have a few pubs to their names. And, as @PsyDr noted, many of them have quite impactful publications at that. To me, the quality of a program is, by far, more important than the initials after a person's name.

Probably dependent on the area and how saturated the area is. My area had one of the now shuttered mills in town, and their grads are largely private practice or work for two of the larger predatory group practices in town. The occasional one works at the one of the large hospital systems. Of the few that I've personally worked with in a clinical capacity, I'd put the upper boundary in terms of clinical acumen as a mid-year intern.

 

[Lukewarm Counselor]

Many diploma mill Psy.Ds are indistinguishable from master's level clinicians, IME.

I've heard quite a few psychologists across the US share this same experience.

I do happen to know a Walden grad. She shared with me that not one of her cohorts was able to secure a clinical position after graduation due to poor internship options and no clinics in their areas were comfortable bringing them on board post-grad. She claimed most of them ended up working as school psychologists, for whatever that is worth.

I once looked up Walden's price tag on their website just for fun. I still struggle with traumatic nightmares about it to this day.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I don't accept boundaries that provide the opportunity to make statements, but prohibits others from questioning the statement.

This statement would make a lot of the internet so mad (I legit hate the Reddit discourse around "toxic people" and "boundaries" and how it's basically "If someone makes you upsets or disagrees with you once, they are toxic and you need to cut them out of your life without discussion.")

 

[PsyDr]

This statement would make a lot of the internet so mad (I legit hate the Reddit discourse around "toxic people" and "boundaries" and how it's basically "If someone makes you upsets or disagrees with you once, they are toxic and you need to cut them out of your life without discussion.")

I don’t care. There are many uncomfortable truths. The factual nature of those truths don’t change. Oncology wards are full of people who don’t like the truth. Cancer doesn’t go away because we have boundaries. A two year old isn’t correct because they say “no”. All we can do, is adapt to the truth or the premise. The latter is important for men who accept the fundament premise of masculinity.

 

[Lukewarm Counselor]

"The latter is important for men who accept the fundament premise of masculinity."

 

[Sanman]

This statement would make a lot of the internet so mad (I legit hate the Reddit discourse around "toxic people" and "boundaries" and how it's basically "If someone makes you upsets or disagrees with you once, they are toxic and you need to cut them out of your life without discussion.")

Do any of these people have bosses?

 

[R. Matey]

This statement would make a lot of the internet so mad (I legit hate the Reddit discourse around "toxic people" and "boundaries" and how it's basically "If someone makes you upsets or disagrees with you once, they are toxic and you need to cut them out of your life without discussion.")

Basically how echo chambers form

 

[WisNeuro]

Basically how echo chambers form

Yeah, anything even remotely political on reddit subs are just giant echo chambers. Simple, verifiable facts get downvoted into oblivion. There is no open debate there, just a lot of back slapping of people who all want to believe the same thing, regardless of veracity.

 

[Mercury in Taurus]

2.) What is the time investment? I know that you have to spend a lot of time to earn a doctorate but I have seen some say they start working part/full time counseling clients with their masters to earn a living while also pursuing their doctorate. Is it reasonable to have a part/full-time job while earning your doctorate? Will you have time for a social life or travel?

It is very proactive and smart of you to think and plan ahead. You will need to budget very well in order to accomplish the above mentioned. I worked part-time to avoid taking any additional loans. I used an excel sheet to manage my finance and had a 4-year financial plan to track my spending. Once a week, I carve out a time to balance and/or rebalance my sheet and made adjustments as needed. This was pre-Covid time, so a big chunk was put aside for internship matching expenses, including flights and lodging expenses. I budgeted $3,000/year emergency funds were something that I considered untouchable and only used for emergency situations (the remaining funds got rolled over every year). My car was broken into and resulted significant damages. Although the insurance covered the repair and car rental, I had to pay a $500 deductible. That was worth almost a whole month of my groceries before this crazy inflation. A root canal that I tried my best to postpone and eventually could no longer tolerate the pain ended up some out-of-pocket expenses. Having emergency funds as your financial cushion would make a big difference in stressful situations.

BTW - social life events were typically scheduled two weeks ahead. LOL

Annual vacation was budgeted in, and I made sure that I took one vacation a year for self-care. Budgeting your time as efficiently as your finance would be essential. You will likely be required 16-24 hr/week for your practicum. We need to eat and at least 6 hours nightly sleep in order to function well. Depending on where you are, commute is another factor. For one of my practicum, the commute between face-to-face training required at the corporate office and traveling to the facility where I saw patients was a 3-hour trip with traffic. We are operating in a different time now and training sites are becoming more flexible with virtual supervision and didactic. However, my current employer, an APA accredited internship site, still meet with trainees face-to-face for the trainees' benefits. We are unable to predict the changes in regulations and requirements for every state. Ensuring face-to-face supervision will help to prevent or minimize potential challenges down the road when they apply for license.

 

[quickpsych]

It's a wash. When one factors in the cost of additional tuition, plus the lost income of these added years, any higher billing rates will usually not become viable for decades -- if ever. In some cases, the doctorate may cost money in the end.

I'll leave some of the others on here to expand more on this. Also, a doctorate degree is not what demands the higher rate; it is the license, itself, that gets the rate. A clinical psyche license does require a very specific doctorate degree, obviously.

Master's level clinicians can be trained in many assessments. The more projective assessments are often more reserved for our doctorate counterparts.

Choosing to pursue a doctorate is a very personal decision and requires a ton of sacrifice of time/money/effort.

Unfortunately, going from MA in counseling to PsyD is a terribly inefficient route. You'll only shave 9-12 months off at best, from what I've heard.

Wish you the best whatever you decide, friend.

Well said about the license. It's amazing how true it is seeing people going from low rates/fee arrangements/salaries to suddenly making 30-40% (sometimes even more) right after the license is issued.

And can speak first hand going from MA to PsyD; if I could have done it again and known more my path in undergrad, would have went right into doctoral program. I did shave a year off but was basically a wash in terms of cost.

 

[Mercury in Taurus]

you forgot to add in time for crying and swearing, but that can be done simultaneously while reading and writing.

that adds about 1 hr/week

 

[quickpsych]

Great to ask these questions and research now rather than later. Some solid comments in this thread as well.

Will share my experience and some thoughts:

- Definitely look at APA accredited programs with APA accredited internship consortiums, smaller cohort size is also a plus. Also research the faculty a bit, you ideally want some professors who are actively practicing in the field. And as both research and specialization become more prevalent, see if any professors have specialities/interests in areas you also might be interested in.

- I entered in Year II as I had a Masters but it's a wash usually cost wise. I had one program offer me "lighter course load" in Year I and another offer me direct entry to Year II cohort. Obviously second option was best in my case.

Time investment question:

Time, work/courseload and expectations as best as I can recall-

*Most programs are year round (with some breaks), mine was 3 semesters a year (Spring, Summer, Fall). It should be noted that coursework/credit hours generally included practicums (so say 15 hours a week coursework, 2-3 hours were the practicum class but the actual practicum was on top of the other hours).

Year I - I entered Year II but from my peers it involved about 12-15 hours a week of coursework, 25 hours or so of homework/reading/assignments, and in Summer semester they had a "clinical experience" therapy practicum of maybe 12 hours a week that led into their Year I . This clinical experience so early isn't super common and usually starts in Year II or III.

Year II - For Year I starters they were in their clinical experience therapy practicum through the Spring Semester. Everyone also had 12-15 hours a week of coursework and 20-25 hours or so of homework/reading/assignments. Year II starters did not have a practicum (as we came in with masters level practicums).

Year III - This and the next year were busiest. Had an assessment practicum for the full year (at the time only required around 12 hours a week BUT in some states requirements have changed and allow practicums to count for licensure post doctoral hours so 15 hours a week is standard) as well as 15 hours a week of coursework, 20-25 hours a week or so of homework/reading/etc including beginning dissertation work (some start earlier). Over some of this year and following year I did a lot of work on my dissertation.

Year IV- Had a clinical therapy practicum for the full year , around 12-15 hours of coursework, 15-20 hours of homework/reading/etc and dissertation work. Also most programs have their required written and oral comprehensive exams in Spring or Summer of this year. Expect to add at least another 10 hours a week for study in month or two leading up to these exams (If you fail them, and some of us do, good programs have a plan in place and timeline to retake them the following Fall semester in Year V).

Year V- Had an optional practicum (although recommended especially if interested in speciality areas). I chose an assessment practicum that was on paper was 15 hours a week but was a time consuming one and I put in around 22-24 hours a week on it. Coursework probably 12 hours a week, maybe 12-15 hours a week homework/reading/etc, maybe 10-12 hours a week on dissertation work. In Fall expect to spend about 10 hours a week for a few weeks on internship applications and prep (our program also did mock interviews and such) and in early Spring set aside time for internship interviews (and associated travel).

Year VI - Internship year. For most the internship is full time and unlike most of the practicums is paid. Programs with consortiums usually allot one day a week to full day didactics/supervision/classroom instruction. So some students may have internships that are 4 days there, 1 day at the school, others may have weekend/evening internship hours as their internship site is outside the consortium and need to accommodate for the didactic day. Also most spend a lot of time on dissertation to get it finished before internship is over. Expect around 50-55 hours a week between internship, didactics, and dissertation, maybe more.

Additional time - Sometimes the dissertation doesn't get done by end of internship OR you didn't match to an internship. Good programs have built this into their timelines (and most allow up to 8 years to complete but don't take that long for your own sanity!). For me I needed a little extra time for dissertation, but the program insured I had the support and resources needed to finish the same calendar year as my internship ended which helped. Good and legitimate programs also do not charge full tuition for this added time and only charge for the credit hours needed for dissertation mentoring/supervision (usually 2-3 credits a semester).

On top of the above most people work part time through some or all of the years. Some also (or) do work study and other funding opportunities to pay for some of the courses. I worked part time maybe 12 hours a week outside of the program and 3 of the years I had work-study (one as a TA/research assistant and 2 as basically a body watching over a computer lab).

Costs:

Most programs are eligible under federal loan programs for certain maximums per year in student loans (much like med school). These amounts are meant to cover tuition/school fees, books, living expenses. Some people take the max (as it's cheaper than running up credit card bills with interest when considering most interest rates on federal loans) to cover living expenses and such. BUT if you can handle more work during school and keep your expenses very low, you can take less out to pay for your education. It's a balance, you don't want to overwork and then fall behind in school or fail out then you've lost money in multiple ways. At same time always good to reduce your money owed in debt where you can. And do NOT take private loans out for grad schools. Federal loans offer maximums that will cover at the minimum the full tuition cost at much better rates and much better repayment plans. If the school isn't eligible for federal loans or offers a very low yearly max that barely covers it through federal loans (or a very high max that is more than one would reasonably need for basic living expenses + tuition)....red flag.

Earnings question - I've never met anyone who stayed in the field after school making less than when in school. For reference I got $0 for my practicums (one did give appreciation holiday checks though), $24k for my internship year, about $15/hr in work study applied to cost of one course a semester, and maybe $250-300 or so a week from part time work except internship year. Some made more, some less. I'm still finishing up paperwork and such for my license (thanks pandemic!) and still made more than in school for a few years. Offer upon first time license is nearly double that ($70k ish range) and I know colleagues who within 2 years of licensure are making low six figures (mileage may vary based on locale, speciality, and job choice). I also know some who choose to work part time and still earn more than the average national household income.

Important considerations:

- Avoid diploma mill, low reputation programs (both PhD and Psyd). Typical examples include: Alliant, Argosy, Walden. While some "may" be APA accredited they tend to have very large cohorts (for reference a good PsyD cohort size is under 20 and some would say even less than that) of 80+ students per cohort, and high price tags (often charging a full yearly tuition regardless of course load until graduation).

- Consider programs with speciality areas if of interest to you. Despite what another comment here said, good, legitimate programs do not "extend" the length of time spent in the program if you choose to take an additional few courses for a speciality or certificate acknowledgement for said speciality. They're built into the timeline.

- Look for programs with high EPPP pass rates, high internship placement rates, and high rates of licensure. This speaks volumes about the quality of the program. Sure programs have a vested interest to ensure you do well and reach the end goal of licensure, but this also means they put a lot into making sure you succeed in the first place. And love it or hate it, quality and reputation of a program matters when looking for your internship, post doc, first job. There's a certain level of high standards that good programs maintain and as that remains consistent, practices, employers, agencies start to keep coming back looking for those grads. Especially if they have had practicum students and interns from there in the past with a good experience on both sides. This may be regional depending on size and reach of the school. The connections and networking from quality programs is worth a lot.

- Ask yourself can you do what you may want to do with a Masters? I definitely have a lot more flexibility in what I can do, where I can work, and what services I can offer with a PsyD. But frankly if your main interest is doing therapy, an Masters in Social Work (with a goal of LCSW) or Masters in Clinical and Counseling (with a goal of MFT or LPC) would be sufficient. Some jobs don't even require licensure (but very specific to certain types of agencies and work).

 

[mindfulany]

It is very proactive and smart of you to think and plan ahead. You will need to budget very well in order to accomplish the above mentioned. I worked part-time to avoid taking any additional loans. I used an excel sheet to manage my finance and had a 4-year financial plan to track my spending. Once a week, I carve out a time to balance and/or rebalance my sheet and made adjustments as needed. This was pre-Covid time, so a big chunk was put aside for internship matching expenses, including flights and lodging expenses. I budgeted $3,000/year emergency funds were something that I considered untouchable and only used for emergency situations (the remaining funds got rolled over every year). My car was broken into and resulted significant damages. Although the insurance covered the repair and car rental, I had to pay a $500 deductible. That was worth almost a whole month of my groceries before this crazy inflation. A root canal that I tried my best to postpone and eventually could no longer tolerate the pain ended up some out-of-pocket expenses. Having emergency funds as your financial cushion would make a big difference in stressful situations.

BTW - social life events were typically scheduled two weeks ahead. LOL

Annual vacation was budgeted in, and I made sure that I took one vacation a year for self-care. Budgeting your time as efficiently as your finance would be essential. You will likely be required 16-24 hr/week for your practicum. We need to eat and at least 6 hours nightly sleep in order to function well. Depending on where you are, commute is another factor. For one of my practicum, the commute between face-to-face training required at the corporate office and traveling to the facility where I saw patients was a 3-hour trip with traffic. We are operating in a different time now and training sites are becoming more flexible with virtual supervision and didactic. However, my current employer, an APA accredited internship site, still meet with trainees face-to-face for the trainees' benefits. We are unable to predict the changes in regulations and requirements for every state. Ensuring face-to-face supervision will help to prevent or minimize potential challenges down the road when they apply for license.

Thank you for your response and the info! You give a lot to think about and I will take it into account for sure! You seem to be very knowledgeable, would you elaborate more on the structure of the years you’re in graduate school how it breaks down? For example is it something like the first two years are classes, next year is practicum, next year is internship, and next year is internship or what can I expect for each year in general? Thanks for your help!

 

[mindfulany]

Great to ask these questions and research now rather than later. Some solid comments in this thread as well.

Will share my experience and some thoughts:

- Definitely look at APA accredited programs with APA accredited internship consortiums, smaller cohort size is also a plus. Also research the faculty a bit, you ideally want some professors who are actively practicing in the field. And as both research and specialization become more prevalent, see if any professors have specialities/interests in areas you also might be interested in.

- I entered in Year II as I had a Masters but it's a wash usually cost wise. I had one program offer me "lighter course load" in Year I and another offer me direct entry to Year II cohort. Obviously second option was best in my case.

Time investment question:

Time, work/courseload and expectations as best as I can recall-

*Most programs are year round (with some breaks), mine was 3 semesters a year (Spring, Summer, Fall). It should be noted that coursework/credit hours generally included practicums (so say 15 hours a week coursework, 2-3 hours were the practicum class but the actual practicum was on top of the other hours).

Year I - I entered Year II but from my peers it involved about 12-15 hours a week of coursework, 25 hours or so of homework/reading/assignments, and in Summer semester they had a "clinical experience" therapy practicum of maybe 12 hours a week that led into their Year I . This clinical experience so early isn't super common and usually starts in Year II or III.

Year II - For Year I starters they were in their clinical experience therapy practicum through the Spring Semester. Everyone also had 12-15 hours a week of coursework and 20-25 hours or so of homework/reading/assignments. Year II starters did not have a practicum (as we came in with masters level practicums).

Year III - This and the next year were busiest. Had an assessment practicum for the full year (at the time only required around 12 hours a week BUT in some states requirements have changed and allow practicums to count for licensure post doctoral hours so 15 hours a week is standard) as well as 15 hours a week of coursework, 20-25 hours a week or so of homework/reading/etc including beginning dissertation work (some start earlier). Over some of this year and following year I did a lot of work on my dissertation.

Year IV- Had a clinical therapy practicum for the full year , around 12-15 hours of coursework, 15-20 hours of homework/reading/etc and dissertation work. Also most programs have their required written and oral comprehensive exams in Spring or Summer of this year. Expect to add at least another 10 hours a week for study in month or two leading up to these exams (If you fail them, and some of us do, good programs have a plan in place and timeline to retake them the following Fall semester in Year V).

Year V- Had an optional practicum (although recommended especially if interested in speciality areas). I chose an assessment practicum that was on paper was 15 hours a week but was a time consuming one and I put in around 22-24 hours a week on it. Coursework probably 12 hours a week, maybe 12-15 hours a week homework/reading/etc, maybe 10-12 hours a week on dissertation work. In Fall expect to spend about 10 hours a week for a few weeks on internship applications and prep (our program also did mock interviews and such) and in early Spring set aside time for internship interviews (and associated travel).

Year VI - Internship year. For most the internship is full time and unlike most of the practicums is paid. Programs with consortiums usually allot one day a week to full day didactics/supervision/classroom instruction. So some students may have internships that are 4 days there, 1 day at the school, others may have weekend/evening internship hours as their internship site is outside the consortium and need to accommodate for the didactic day. Also most spend a lot of time on dissertation to get it finished before internship is over. Expect around 50-55 hours a week between internship, didactics, and dissertation, maybe more.

Additional time - Sometimes the dissertation doesn't get done by end of internship OR you didn't match to an internship. Good programs have built this into their timelines (and most allow up to 8 years to complete but don't take that long for your own sanity!). For me I needed a little extra time for dissertation, but the program insured I had the support and resources needed to finish the same calendar year as my internship ended which helped. Good and legitimate programs also do not charge full tuition for this added time and only charge for the credit hours needed for dissertation mentoring/supervision (usually 2-3 credits a semester).

On top of the above most people work part time through some or all of the years. Some also (or) do work study and other funding opportunities to pay for some of the courses. I worked part time maybe 12 hours a week outside of the program and 3 of the years I had work-study (one as a TA/research assistant and 2 as basically a body watching over a computer lab).

Costs:

Most programs are eligible under federal loan programs for certain maximums per year in student loans (much like med school). These amounts are meant to cover tuition/school fees, books, living expenses. Some people take the max (as it's cheaper than running up credit card bills with interest when considering most interest rates on federal loans) to cover living expenses and such. BUT if you can handle more work during school and keep your expenses very low, you can take less out to pay for your education. It's a balance, you don't want to overwork and then fall behind in school or fail out then you've lost money in multiple ways. At same time always good to reduce your money owed in debt where you can. And do NOT take private loans out for grad schools. Federal loans offer maximums that will cover at the minimum the full tuition cost at much better rates and much better repayment plans. If the school isn't eligible for federal loans or offers a very low yearly max that barely covers it through federal loans (or a very high max that is more than one would reasonably need for basic living expenses + tuition)....red flag.

Earnings question - I've never met anyone who stayed in the field after school making less than when in school. For reference I got $0 for my practicums (one did give appreciation holiday checks though), $24k for my internship year, about $15/hr in work study applied to cost of one course a semester, and maybe $250-300 or so a week from part time work except internship year. Some made more, some less. I'm still finishing up paperwork and such for my license (thanks pandemic!) and still made more than in school for a few years. Offer upon first time license is nearly double that ($70k ish range) and I know colleagues who within 2 years of licensure are making low six figures (mileage may vary based on locale, speciality, and job choice). I also know some who choose to work part time and still earn more than the average national household income.

Important considerations:

- Avoid diploma mill, low reputation programs (both PhD and Psyd). Typical examples include: Alliant, Argosy, Walden. While some "may" be APA accredited they tend to have very large cohorts (for reference a good PsyD cohort size is under 20 and some would say even less than that) of 80+ students per cohort, and high price tags (often charging a full yearly tuition regardless of course load until graduation).

- Consider programs with speciality areas if of interest to you. Despite what another comment here said, good, legitimate programs do not "extend" the length of time spent in the program if you choose to take an additional few courses for a speciality or certificate acknowledgement for said speciality. They're built into the timeline.

- Look for programs with high EPPP pass rates, high internship placement rates, and high rates of licensure. This speaks volumes about the quality of the program. Sure programs have a vested interest to ensure you do well and reach the end goal of licensure, but this also means they put a lot into making sure you succeed in the first place. And love it or hate it, quality and reputation of a program matters when looking for your internship, post doc, first job. There's a certain level of high standards that good programs maintain and as that remains consistent, practices, employers, agencies start to keep coming back looking for those grads. Especially if they have had practicum students and interns from there in the past with a good experience on both sides. This may be regional depending on size and reach of the school. The connections and networking from quality programs is worth a lot.

- Ask yourself can you do what you may want to do with a Masters? I definitely have a lot more flexibility in what I can do, where I can work, and what services I can offer with a PsyD. But frankly if your main interest is doing therapy, an Masters in Social Work (with a goal of LCSW) or Masters in Clinical and Counseling (with a goal of MFT or LPC) would be sufficient. Some jobs don't even require licensure (but very specific to certain types of agencies and work).

Wow I can not thank you enough for your response and the way you laid everything out! You answered many of my questions and explained them the best way I have heard! I appreciate you taking your time to do this and help a confused student at a cross roads! Did you do it full time or part time while pursuing your doctorate? Is there a benefit to doing it either way besides the timeline obviously! Lastly, my main goal is to one day have my own private practice and provide therapy/counseling to my clients, with this in mind is just sticking to my masters the best bet? I have heard for what I want to do I can just do it with a masters but if I can make significantly more income having a doctorate in private practice vs a masters I would probably take the time to get the doctorate and not leave any potential earnings on the table, what are you thoughts? Thanks again for all your help & feedback, means a lot!

 

[Lukewarm Counselor]

I have heard for what I want to do I can just do it with a masters but if I can make significantly more income having a doctorate in private practice vs a masters I would probably take the time to get the doctorate and not leave any potential earnings on the table

So what is your motivation in earning a doctorate?

You can seek additional quality training post grad (master's level) such as a fellowship or certs in specific modalities and build a reputation in a niche area.

If you're catering to cash pay clients in private practice, the degree won't mean much past the initial visit. Sure, it might help encourage them through the front door. But they'll expect superior services for this higher fee.

If you want to bill insurance companies, then the higher degree/license will earn a modestly higher return. (As it should!)

In the end, one's performance is the final measuring stick for retaining private cash pay clients. The degree itself becomes secondary after the initial visit. There is no way around this.

 

[Sanman]

Wow I can not thank you enough for your response and the way you laid everything out! You answered many of my questions and explained them the best way I have heard! I appreciate you taking your time to do this and help a confused student at a cross roads! Did you do it full time or part time while pursuing your doctorate? Is there a benefit to doing it either way besides the timeline obviously! Lastly, my main goal is to one day have my own private practice and provide therapy/counseling to my clients, with this in mind is just sticking to my masters the best bet? I have heard for what I want to do I can just do it with a masters but if I can make significantly more income having a doctorate in private practice vs a masters I would probably take the time to get the doctorate and not leave any potential earnings on the table, what are you thoughts? Thanks again for all your help & feedback, means a lot!

If your main goal is private practice, at some point you will need to be able to spend thousands of dollars (office, furniture, phone lines, etc) and not have income come back in for months. If you are taking out $250k in loans for a PsyD and plan to pay them back on a 20 year timeline, how do you plan to manage all of those student loan payments while laying out this extra cash for a business?

 

[WisNeuro]

If your main goal is private practice, at some point you will need to be able to spend thousands of dollars (office, furniture, phone lines, etc) and not have income come back in for months. If you are taking out $250k in loans for a PsyD and plan to pay them back on a 20 year timeline, how do you plan to manage all of those student loan payments while laying out this extra cash for a business?

Silly Sanman, that's what high interest business loans are for.