What is Allopathic Medicine?

[USArmyDoc]

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I commend you for wanting to focus on being a great clinician. Might you care to share what specifically bothered you in this conversation? It might be beneficial for pre-meds to hear.

bh

Sure bryan......The competition and the drive for some people to prove that they are better, just as good, or worse off clinicians. We are all doctors and will one day be working side by side. I have had some serious medical issues....ones that could of resulted in death and severe disabilities. I have been treated by MD's and DO's. They all rocked! They gave me the ability to become a physician when I might not of been able to otherwise. Furthermore, medical school is hard, MD or DO. There is a lot of information that needs to be assimilated. (I am not lectured to med students, just proving my pts to premeds) Why not concentrate on knowing your information and being as sharp as possible at this stage. From my own standpoint, I do see where some people would get annoyed with these boards. There is a lot of misinformation out there, but then again it is not my personal mission to correct it. Go ahead, believe what you want. I am focusing on becoming a good doc. I want to know my physiology, pathology, etc.

In closing.....MD's rock, DO's rock......translation....DOCTORS rock....Why can't all the people on SDN quit with the mockery, competition, and snobby attitudes.

With that being said, premeds should stop spreading misinformation and allow medical students and doctors to spread the truth.

 

[bth7]

I think if you look at the history, osteo is an offshoot of allopathic, and it did so to "define" itself differently to distinguish itself.

Agree. And there's been a change in how the allopathic community responds to the "different definition." The Core Osteopathic principles are:

1. The body is a unit, not collection of parts. The person is a union of body, mind and spirit.
2. The body is capable of homeostasis, self-healing and health maintenance.
3. The structure and function of the body are reciprocally interrelated.
4. Rational treatment is based on an understanding of body unity, homeostasis, and the interrelationship of structure and function.

What's interesting is there's nothing particularly "non-allopathic" about these principles. As you said above, its just "medicine," without anything particularly osteopathic or allopathic, in a fundamental sense. Someone actually did a study on this and found that most MD educators and administrators found nothing objectionable about the supposedly "osteopathic" principles, as listed above, and some MDs educators had no issue endorsing them as broad medical principles. This is a change from years past, when allopathic docs viewed osteopathic principles with more skepticism or even hostility (as in WILK or California '62).

The logical conclusion is to eventually merge it back into the fold.

Agree. From the looks of the number of DO students entering ACGME (allopathic) residency programs, it seems like this merger is well underway. Last year, almost 6,000 DO graduates were training in ACGME programs. So "osteopathic" graduates are training in "allopathic" residencies.

The distinction between allopathic and osteopathic becomes more and more blurry each year.

BTH

 

[Law2Doc]

The distinction between allopathic and osteopathic becomes more and more blurry each year.

BTH

As I said above the distinctions can never really get much beyond the current level of blurry until there is a single test, a single match and not two different sets of residencies.

 

[USArmyDoc]

Can someone explain to me why this needs to be talked about all the time. Is there a need for MD's to pound their chests and say we had higher MCATs and GPAs. Conversely, is it necessary for DO's to consistently mention that we learn OMM and treat patients differently? Why can't everyone accept that there are two different degrees in medicine of which both produce excellent physicians. I am glad to see that this is the kind of profession I am going in to. Where everyone needs to stack up and explain how they are better.

Get over yourselves.

 

[Law2Doc]

Is there a need for MD's to pound their chests and say we had higher MCATs and GPAs.

A DO student brought this up on the pre-allo board -- it was his topic choice.. It has remained surprisingly civil and interesting, compared to other threads.

 

[bth7]

Can someone explain to me why this needs to be talked about all the time. Is there a need for MD's to pound their chests and say we had higher MCATs and GPAs. Conversely, is it necessary for DO's to consistently mention that we learn OMM and treat patients differently? Why can't everyone accept that there are two different degrees in medicine of which both produce excellent physicians. I am glad to see that this is the kind of profession I am going in to. Where everyone needs to stack up and explain how they are better.

Get over yourselves.

Good question. I don't know exactly. I know that I was unaware of a lot of the specifics involved until I really started looking into it. In asking questions, a lot of the information people gave me was incorrect. So I was surprised when I actually starting looking into the history and official policies.

The conversation can be had without it being adversarial, if people recognize that we're all on the same team here. This isn't a contact sport.

It seems like for many people, you can't have this conversation without there being some implicit negative connotation to this comparison. But I think that too is coming to an end.

bth

 

[USArmyDoc]

A DO student brought this up on the pre-allo board -- it was his topic choice.. It has remained surprisingly civil and interesting, compared to other threads.

Good point Law2Doc, but I was not directing my comments solely at this thread. There have been numerous threads of such kind not brought up by a DO student. I just think we are all working towards a common goal and these threads are useless, but in all fairness this has been civil like you have pointed out.

 

[USArmyDoc]

Bump......I would like to hear what some people have to say in response to the issues being raised here.

 

[medguy83]

On a couple of different occasions, the LECOM-Bradenton representative came by to speak to us at USF and I have to say that he really sounded anti MDs and that DOs were the greatest thing ever and OMM was the best invention on the planet. He kept making it sound like most DOs don't use medications but rather use OMM for everything. Sounded like a nut job. However, the reality is that most DOs I know don't do that. They practice in ways similar to allopathic medicine because allopathic methods are what most people want...

I have to agree. I went to a Lecom-B open house and was kind of struck by their anti-MD attitudes. They sounded so resentful and angry; like they had a vendetta against anyone in the allopathic field. I felt very uncomfortable, like I was sitting in on a secret society meeting or something. Granted, I don't think most DO institutions are like this, and I also don't think people graduating from DO schools are inferior in any way. When it's all said and done, the quality of your care comes down to the effort you put forth in study and training. Personally, I think the whole DO vs. MD thing is a bit trivial. There are crappy MD's and great ones just as there are crappy DO's and great ones. All in all we're physicians, and that's what every patient cares most about. Enough with the bashing on both sides of the fence.

 

[USArmyDoc]

I have to agree. I went to a Lecom-B open house and was kind of struck by their anti-MD attitudes. They sounded so resentful and angry; like they had a vendetta against anyone in the allopathic field. I felt very uncomfortable, like I was sitting in on a secret society meeting or something. Granted, I don't think most DO institutions are like this, and I also don't think people graduating from DO schools are inferior in any way. When it's all said and done, the quality of your care comes down to the effort you put forth in study and training. Personally, I think the whole DO vs. MD thing is a bit trivial. There are crappy MD's and great ones just as there are crappy DO's and great ones. All in all we're physicians, and that's what every patient cares most about. Enough with the bashing on both sides of the fence.

I agree. My school does NOT promote any anti-MD stance. That is rediculous. We are doctors working towards a common goal why can't this be understoood?!!?!!?

 

[gujuDoc]

Can someone explain to me why this needs to be talked about all the time. Is there a need for MD's to pound their chests and say we had higher MCATs and GPAs. Conversely, is it necessary for DO's to consistently mention that we learn OMM and treat patients differently? Why can't everyone accept that there are two different degrees in medicine of which both produce excellent physicians. I am glad to see that this is the kind of profession I am going in to. Where everyone needs to stack up and explain how they are better.

Get over yourselves.

Yeah I understand how you feel. I wasn't saying that I have anything against DOs. I'd gladly go to one just as long as they aren't suggesting to do OMM as I don't really believe in that stuff which is part of the reason I've been hesitant on the whole DO idea for me. That said, many excellent physicians I know including one I shadowed are DO grads and I think the lay person is not one who gives a damn about someone's MCAT or GPA so much as their clinical competence and bedside manner. Those are the two single most important facets of being a good physician.

 

[gujuDoc]

I agree. My school does NOT permote any anti-MD stance. That is rediculous. We are doctors working towards a common goal why can't this be understoood?!!?!!?

You go to one of the better DO schools and I think the more reputable ones that I've spoken with representatives from have shown a lot of class. This includes PCOM, NYIT, NOVA, KCOM, and the other Missouri school. I believe UHS is their name. I'd also say CCOM and UMDNJ DO school are also some of the better DO schools..

I've heard a lot of people including people who were applying DO only tell me that LECOM Bradenton rubbed them the wrong way. They said they got a much better feeling from schools like the ones I mentioned above. In fact most students who got into LECOM-B and some other DO school from the list above almost always chose from one of their other options because the attitude and lack of reputated clinical sites at LECOM B at that time. LECOM-B's clinical sites have since improved a little bit but the attitude just rubs me the wrong way. That guy who is the Dean of Admissions needs to back down with his Anti MD campaign.

 

[USArmyDoc]

I got ya Guju. But I must give an example and I hate for it to be using your name. However, you stated in one thread that OMM may take away from a integrated course into our cirriculum on how to take an H&P. That is absolutely false. Not only have I been taught a complete H&P as well as a SOAP note I performed 8 of them so far on patients. At the end of the year, we had to write a comprehensive SOAP note on a patient and it was grades. We also were mandated to work in a clinic. In addition, our standardized patients tells us we do the best out of all the medical schools they go to. Granted, this anecdotal evidence and it could be that they got a bad student at another school.

However, my point in saying the previous statement is to NOT knock any school, MD/DO. My point is to show that if you go to a good school you will get a great education. Furthermore, I know friends in allopathic medical schools who have not even touched a physical diagnosis book nor done an H&P or seen a real patient. I was also told Drexel (correct me if I am wrong anyone) does not give such a course either. Again, that is not to suggest it is a bad school or produces bad physicians.

I interviewed at MD and DO schools. The MD school I was placed in an acceptance pool. Either way, PCOM has been an awesome place for me and I am learning great.

Lastly, I think we should all just focus on our topic at hand. If you are trying to gain acceptance into medical, work your hardest to get there. If you are in medical school, lets try to be the best physicians we possibly can.

Good luck guys

 

[USArmyDoc]

Yeah I understand how you feel. I wasn't saying that I have anything against DOs. I'd gladly go to one just as long as they aren't suggesting to do OMM as I don't really believe in that stuff which is part of the reason I've been hesitant on the whole DO idea for me. That said, many excellent physicians I know including one I shadowed are DO grads and I think the lay person is not one who gives a damn about someone's MCAT or GPA so much as their clinical competence and bedside manner. Those are the two single most important facets of being a good physician.

BTW Guju, they do NOT push OMM on you. Granted, going to an osteopathic medical school you will need to understand its purposes. You also need to understand that OMM does have its uses AND its limitations. If you understand that, then you are good to go. I think we get ~1 hour of OMM lecture a week. Is that such a big deal? The other hours are devoted to the current topic (e.g. Renal-Pulmonary Medicine, Cardiovascular Medicine). Personally, I think the people on these boards are so hung up on bull$hit.

 

[gujuDoc]

BTW Guju, they do NOT push OMM on you. Granted, going to an osteopathic medical school you will need to understand its purposes. You also need to understand that OMM does have its uses AND its limitations. If you understand that, then you are good to go. I think we get ~1 hour of OMM lecture a week. Is that such a big deal? The other hours are devoted to the current topic (e.g. Renal-Pulmonary Medicine, Cardiovascular Medicine). Personally, I think the people on these boards are so hung up on bull$hit.

I guess it depends on the school. Like I said earlier, your school is one of the better DO schools in the country along with MSU, NYIT, CCOM, the two in Missouri, the one in NJ, and NOVA. There are however some pretty bad experiences I've had with other DO school reps from schools like LECOM and a few of the lesser known ones.

I recall a guy telling me a few years ago that the old admissions director at USF said he didn't have a problem with DOs but he had a problem with the same school I'm mentioning (LECOM-Bradenton). Your school which is a better school does not push or shove down your throat a lot of the stances of OMM and other propaganda from what I can see.

However, the 3 or 4 times I saw reps from LECOM either because they came to my organizations' meetings or other events, they kept shoving it down our throats like it was gods gift to mankind and were very ANTI-MD. It is the extreme people on either MD or DO side who I most disagree with. I think most of the FL. schools teach early exposure to clinical opportunities and have physical diagnosis classes in addition to Longitudinal Clinical Experience classes in which students go out and pair themselves with a preceptor who gives them the opportunity to do many H&Ps. This is especially true at USF and Umiami. Both schools work with real patients rather then those actor patients right from the get go. UF deals more with actor patients at first and then real patients. FSU has a bit of both. USF is a bit of both but traditionally did more to deal with real patients more.

I guess its school dependent. In the end as you pointed out we all are here for a common goal and that is what is important. I don't give a damn what my doc's MCAT score or GPA was as long as they are competent and know what they are doing. I don't care if they are DO or MD as long as they are doing their job and doing it right.

 

[USArmyDoc]

I guess it depends on the school. Like I said earlier, your school is one of the better DO schools in the country along with MSU, NYIT, CCOM, the two in Missouri, the one in NJ, and NOVA. There are however some pretty bad experiences I've had with other DO school reps from schools like LECOM and a few of the lesser known ones.

I recall a guy telling me a few years ago that the old admissions director at USF said he didn't have a problem with DOs but he had a problem with the same school I'm mentioning (LECOM-Bradenton). Your school which is a better school does not push or shove down your throat a lot of the stances of OMM and other propaganda from what I can see.

However, the 3 or 4 times I saw reps from LECOM either because they came to my organizations' meetings or other events, they kept shoving it down our throats like it was gods gift to mankind and were very ANTI-MD. It is the extreme people on either MD or DO side who I most disagree with. I think most of the FL. schools teach early exposure to clinical opportunities and have physical diagnosis classes in addition to Longitudinal Clinical Experience classes in which students go out and pair themselves with a preceptor who gives them the opportunity to do many H&Ps. This is especially true at USF and Umiami. Both schools work with real patients rather then those actor patients right from the get go. UF deals more with actor patients at first and then real patients. FSU has a bit of both. USF is a bit of both but traditionally did more to deal with real patients more.

I guess its school dependent. In the end as you pointed out we all are here for a common goal and that is what is important. I don't give a damn what my doc's MCAT score or GPA was as long as they are competent and know what they are doing. I don't care if they are DO or MD as long as they are doing their job and doing it right.

I agree with you on the LECOM-B situation. But I am just pointing out from a stand point as a student that a lot of the information given on these boards about MD & DO programs is false. I understand people who come to these boards are looking for advice and really hope I can give them the information they are looking for. However, I think the questions should not be answered with generalizations and if its directed at a certain school a student of that school should answer. I could give a rats a$$ about the MD/DO debate. I love being a DO and I love my school.

Good luck to all...I hope everyone gets what they want.