what is considered an acceptable level of ECs?

[AnesthesiaMD]

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1 yr. volunteer at hospital
1 - Alternative Spring Break
Shadowed multiple doctors
1 yr. volunteer at nursing home
1 yr. research
1 yr. AMSA membership (pre-medical chapter)

I am also a licensed pilot and love to fly when I can.

are these ECs considered acceptable?

 

[mongrel]

Yes.

 

[BigRedPremed]

Looks a bit light if that's what you have after 3 years. But I think the flying thing is a fantastic and unique EC.

 

[AnesthesiaMD]

Looks a bit light if that's what you have after 3 years. But I think the flying thing is a fantastic and unique EC.

Well Actually I decided in December of 2006 that I wanted to go into medicine and won't be applying till next cycle...those will be my experiences at that time.

 

[Dr.D-man]

1 yr. volunteer at hospital
1 - Alternative Spring Break
Shadowed multiple doctors
1 yr. volunteer at nursing home
1 yr. research
1 yr. AMSA membership (pre-medical chapter)

I am also a licensed pilot and love to fly when I can.

are these ECs considered acceptable?

Hell yeah, another pilot! That makes three of us pre-med pilots now. We should start a club.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Hell yeah, another pilot! That makes three of us pre-med pilots now. We should start a club.

Four......you, AnesthesiaMD, Taylorcraft (or something like that) and myself (currently a student pilot)

 

[Dr.D-man]

Four......you, AnesthesiaMD, Taylorcraft (or something like that) and myself (currently a student pilot)

My bad, four of us... even better!

 

[Decicco]

Looks a bit light if that's what you have after 3 years. But I think the flying thing is a fantastic and unique EC.

Those are more ECs than I have.. Could someone please post a sample list of ECs that would be ideal for someone to have (example: x hours hospital volunteering, x hours shadoing, x hours researching, etc). I am going to be a junior and it looks like I may need to pick things up a bit.

Thanks!

 

[trichomoniasis]

please don't use the term "alternative spring break"

 

[smeagol]

How often do you fly?

 

[medking]

i think they are ok. but for the amsa thing be sure to have a leadership position. Just being a member doesnt help you.

 

[154465]

please don't use the term "alternative spring break"

Why not?

 

[voirlesetoiles]

"Alternative Spring Break" is what the program is called at my school, I don't see why not...

 

[OncDoc19]

Those are more ECs than I have.. Could someone please post a sample list of ECs that would be ideal for someone to have (example: x hours hospital volunteering, x hours shadoing, x hours researching, etc). I am going to be a junior and it looks like I may need to pick things up a bit.

Thanks!

I don't think there is any "ideal" list. Part of it depends on the strengths of the other components of your application - Grades, MCAT, LORs, etc and part depends on where you want to go and what the emphasis of that school is (primary care vs research). Whatever you do make sure you do the activity for an extended period of time (ie dont do 20 things for one month each) and make sure its something you like. There are so many opportunities out there so find something you love and do it.
You are welcome to check out my MDApps for a list of my ECs, but keep in mind I haven't gone through the cycle yet.

 

[jae9970]

i have very little too..

 

[LizzyM]

Here are the questions I'm seeking to answer when I read a list of ECs:
You = "the applicant"

Have you done something clinical ("smelled patients")?
Have you served the public in some capacity?
What did you do during each summer vacation?
Have you done something during each academic year other than attend classes?
Have you had any experience with research of any kind?
What do you do for fun?
Have you done something interesting or unusual that we might talk about?

The number of ECs doesn't matter as much as whether what you've listed is sufficient to answer the questions I've posed.

 

[TheRealMD]

Here are the questions I'm seeking to answer when I read a list of ECs:
You = "the applicant"

Have you done something clinical ("smelled patients")?
Have you served the public in some capacity?
What did you do during each summer vacation?
Have you done something during each academic year other than attend classes?
Have you had any experience with research of any kind?
What do you do for fun?
Have you done something interesting or unusual that we might talk about?

The number of ECs doesn't matter as much as whether what you've listed is sufficient to answer the questions I've posed.

If we haven't done research, I'm guessing we should have a good reason why?

For example, in my case, I wasn't really aware of the research opportunities my university had until spring 2007 of my junior year. Then with studying the MCAT during that time and other volunteer work, there wasn't any reasonable way to fit it in and still have fun.

Is it still favorable if now that I have free time, I begin to look into research opportunities? Or is that just seen as "you want to do this to get into med school" type thing?

 

[gotmeds?]

1 yr. volunteer at hospital
1 - Alternative Spring Break
Shadowed multiple doctors
1 yr. volunteer at nursing home
1 yr. research
1 yr. AMSA membership (pre-medical chapter)

I am also a licensed pilot and love to fly when I can.

are these ECs considered acceptable?

Unacceptable! Change them now! Er...I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. They look decent to me.

 

[TheGreatHunt]

I like what LizzyM said...

If you do as much as you can, as often as you can, and still have fun, that seems to be about right to me...

 

[trichomoniasis]

"Alternative Spring Break" is what the program is called at my school, I don't see why not...

ugh. it's a gross term that was coined by some producer for daytime news. It relies on the perception that the "traditional" spring break involves Cancun and roofies. The idea that kids need to be given an "alternative" to drunken debauchery for two weeks because they're incapable of being productive on their own is insulting. I'm not saying the idea of giving kids the opportunity to shadow docs for two weeks during spring break is a bad idea, it's great, I just hate the name "alternative spring break."

but if that's what the program was called, I guess you have no choice.

 

[Husky85]

From talking to the adcom at my school, the concept of a "checklist" that you can fill to ensure yourself admission to medical school is ludicrous. Their opinion (and they assured me that this was the opinion of most other schools as well) is that your extracurriculars should show who you are. They should be a reflection of what you stand for and what kind of a person you are. For instance, if you are interested in sports you should do sports and put them on your application and if you are interested in music, play in a band and put that on your app.

The important thing is that you show passion and leadership. Med schools want people who are sucessful in whatever they choose to do and who are strong leaders. You are trying to get into a school that will train you to be a leader within the medical field, so showing leadership ability in whatever you do is key. Be an officer in AMSA, be captain of your sports team, or be president of a music club or something...but whatever you do be an active leader and show passion.

That being said, you need to show that you're interested in medicine (and also research at some schools). That means shadowing/volunteering at a hospital or other healthcare facility. After all, you are hoping to enter a school to train as a physician/scientist and it's important to show that you know what you're getting yourself into and that you're positive that it's right for you.

If you have any more questions or you want to see my list of ECs, feel free to pm me.

 

[LizzyM]

If we haven't done research, I'm guessing we should have a good reason why?

For example, in my case, I wasn't really aware of the research opportunities my university had until spring 2007 of my junior year. Then with studying the MCAT during that time and other volunteer work, there wasn't any reasonable way to fit it in and still have fun.

Is it still favorable if now that I have free time, I begin to look into research opportunities? Or is that just seen as "you want to do this to get into med school" type thing?

If there is no research experience listed, I'm going to wonder why you think that a research intensive medical school will be a good fit for you. If you are submitting your application to schools known for producing primary care providers, practioners for rural communities, etc, then the adcom may not even have "experience in research?" as one of the things that it thinks about in reviewing the ECs.

If something interests you and you have an opportunity to participate, go for it. Don't participate if you are doing it reluctantly and hoping that it will get you into med school.

 

[Tenacity]

If we haven't done research, I'm guessing we should have a good reason why?

For example, in my case, I wasn't really aware of the research opportunities my university had until spring 2007 of my junior year. Then with studying the MCAT during that time and other volunteer work, there wasn't any reasonable way to fit it in and still have fun.

Is it still favorable if now that I have free time, I begin to look into research opportunities? Or is that just seen as "you want to do this to get into med school" type thing?

What's fun? Never had that before.

 

[trevagandalf]

So, what is alternate spring break anyway? What do you do? I've never heard of it.. sounds fun!

 

[LizzyM]

What's fun? Never had that before.

That's going to put you at a disadvantage in a pool with applicants who have good numbers and a nice application plus some indication that they know how to enjoy their free time.

 

[jochi1543]

What's fun? Never had that before.

Got a webcam?

JK.

 

[LizzyM]

So, what is alternate spring break anyway? What do you do? I've never heard of it.. sounds fun!

It usually means a service project done over a week's time in the Spring. It makes the assumption (that offends at least one poster here) that the usual Spring break is a beach vacation.

 

[limpkitty]

It usually means a service project done over a week's time in the Spring. It makes the assumption (that offends at least one poster here) that the usual Spring break is a beach vacation.

LizzyM, I have a question for you: don't adcoms realize that most undergrad research positions are just bull**** gophers? And you wonder why someone w/o research experience wants to go to a research intensive school? Because those are, generally considered (and I know the company line of "there are no top medical schools) to be the best. And because someone who got a 40 on their mcat and has excelled at their undergrad classes wants to go to the best.

 

[gujuDoc]

please don't use the term "alternative spring break"

ASB is the official name of an organization in which people across the nation use their spring break to go volunteer elsewhere in the country for a week doing different sort of projects. This isn't a term they made up and if they did an ASB event one year they should damn well go ahead and label it as it is called.

But thanks for sharing your ignorance.

 

[trichomoniasis]

LizzyM, I have a question for you: don't adcoms realize that most undergrad research positions are just bull**** gophers? And you wonder why someone w/o research experience wants to go to a research intensive school? Because those are, generally considered (and I know the company line of "there are no top medical schools) to be the best. And because someone who got a 40 on their mcat and has excelled at their undergrad classes wants to go to the best.

if you're a bull**** gopher in lab you won't be able to talk about your research at an interview. Besides just being in a lab is ok, but its much better if you participate in presentation of research at conferences or, god forbid, publish.

 

[trichomoniasis]

ASB is the official name of an organization in which people across the nation use their spring break to go volunteer elsewhere in the country for a week doing different sort of projects. This isn't a term they made up and if they did an ASB event one year they should damn well go ahead and label it as it is called.

But thanks for sharing your ignorance.

thanks for reading the entire thread.

 

[gujuDoc]

It usually means a service project done over a week's time in the Spring. It makes the assumption (that offends at least one poster here) that the usual Spring break is a beach vacation.

But while you say it offends others what if it is the name of the organization that sponsors these volunteer events??? That is exactly as they call it here in USF and other places too.

I think if that's what it was called then they should label it as such. And believe me while not everyone uses their spring breaks to party that is still the biggest trend so if someone finds it offensive that's ******ed cuz I can tell you the number of sorority, fraternity, and general people I know who used their SB to party is still a magnitude higher then the number of students who'd used their SB to volunteer somewhere for a week.

 

[LizzyM]

LizzyM, I have a question for you: don't adcoms realize that most undergrad research positions are just bull**** gophers? And you wonder why someone w/o research experience wants to go to a research intensive school? Because those are, generally considered (and I know the company line of "there are no top medical schools) to be the best. And because someone who got a 40 on their mcat and has excelled at their undergrad classes wants to go to the best.

What is "best"? What do you want to do with your life? If you want to be an academic physician whose career involves research, teaching and clinical service, then doing research during undergrad, doing research the summer after M1 year, (maybe taking a year off after M3 to do more research), doing some research during residency & fellowship training and obtaining a faculty appointment after that is your career path. Being promoted as a faculty member will depend on getting research grants and publishing the results of research studies. If that's your trajectory, then going to a school with lots of research opportunities (measured in a rough way as Federal research funding by the US News and factored into its rating of the top research schools) is a good choice.

Some people try research and find that it is not for them. Some know from the start that they are most interested in serving patients in a clinical practice without any teaching/research responsibilities. Why should they go to a school that is going to be forcing research on them (requiring a thesis for the degree, or giving a degree with honors based on the quality of a research project)? Are there other schools that may be "best" for that student?

Best should be about good fit with one's interests and gifts, not what some group of people come up with to sell magazines.

Even if you have an MCAT of 40, if you aren't intellectually curious, interested in life-long learning and willing to consider a career that includes research, some research-intensive schools will consider you to be less than an ideal fit.

 

[gujuDoc]

In response to the OP:

I think you have decent ECs but to get a better idea of where your profile stands it is better to talk to the adcom directors of schools of interest.

What different schools count as more important to them is dependent on each individual school.

For instance, at USF the first and foremost things of importance are shadowing and clinical/other volunteering experiences but research is not as important.

On the other hand at a school like Harvard research might be more important then it is to a school like USF.

Or another example is at FSU it might be more important to show a committment to the underserved through volunteerism in small communities where there isn't always adequate healthcare.

Those are just examples but what one school likes another might not so it is best to talk with individual school's adcom directors about your profile and questions.

 

[gujuDoc]

What is "best"? What do you want to do with your life? If you want to be an academic physician whose career involves research, teaching and clinical service, then doing research during undergrad, doing research the summer after M1 year, (maybe taking a year off after M3 to do more research), doing some research during residency & fellowship training and obtaining a faculty appointment after that is your career path. Being promoted as a faculty member will depend on getting research grants and publishing the results of research studies. If that's your trajectory, then going to a school with lots of research opportunities (measured in a rough way as Federal research funding by the US News and factored into its rating of the top research schools) is a good choice.

Some people try research and find that it is not for them. Some know from the start that they are most interested in serving patients in a clinical practice without any teaching/research responsibilities. Why should they go to a school that is going to be forcing research on them (requiring a thesis for the degree, or giving a degree with honors based on the quality of a research project)? Are there other schools that may be "best" for that student?

Best should be about good fit with one's interests and gifts, not what some group of people come up with to sell magazines.

Even if you have an MCAT of 40, if you aren't intellectually curious, interested in life-long learning and willing to consider a career that includes research, some research-intensive schools will consider you to be less than an ideal fit.

VERY VERY VERY GOOD POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Two thumbs up!!!! I agree with this completely. I think this is th point a lot of premeds miss.

 

[LizzyM]

But while you say it offends others what if it is the name of the organization that sponsors these volunteer events??? That is exactly as they call it here in USF and other places too.

I think if that's what it was called then they should label it as such. And believe me while not everyone uses their spring breaks to party that is still the biggest trend so if someone finds it offensive that's ******ed cuz I can tell you the number of sorority, fraternity, and general people I know who used their SB to party is still a magnitude higher then the number of students who'd used their SB to volunteer somewhere for a week.

I said that it offended one poster here. Chill, please.

 

[limpkitty]

if you're a bull**** gopher in lab you won't be able to talk about your research at an interview. Besides just being in a lab is ok, but its much better if you participate in presentation of research at conferences or, god forbid, publish.

i know a ton of people who do "research" and can talk about it like they're actually do stuff and have second or third-author publications but admit that they don't do **** for real stuff. my little sister is getting an authorship just for doing a little bit of fact-checking. but my point is that i don't see how working in a lab makes you suitable for a top-ten school. my roomate does research in a lab and has a 3.4 and is gonna be lucky to get a 27, does anyone really think that he's more likely to be a leader in the medical field than me (3.8/41 and diverse ec's)

 

[gujuDoc]

I said that it offended one poster here. Chill, please.

Sorry I apologize. I just got annoyed by that poster and I think I took it out on you. I agree with your other post a lot that you wrote later on.

 

[limpkitty]

What is "best"? What do you want to do with your life? If you want to be an academic physician whose career involves research, teaching and clinical service, then doing research during undergrad, doing research the summer after M1 year, (maybe taking a year off after M3 to do more research), doing some research during residency & fellowship training and obtaining a faculty appointment after that is your career path. Being promoted as a faculty member will depend on getting research grants and publishing the results of research studies. If that's your trajectory, then going to a school with lots of research opportunities (measured in a rough way as Federal research funding by the US News and factored into its rating of the top research schools) is a good choice.

Some people try research and find that it is not for them. Some know from the start that they are most interested in serving patients in a clinical practice without any teaching/research responsibilities. Why should they go to a school that is going to be forcing research on them (requiring a thesis for the degree, or giving a degree with honors based on the quality of a research project)? Are there other schools that may be "best" for that student?

Best should be about good fit with one's interests and gifts, not what some group of people come up with to sell magazines.

Even if you have an MCAT of 40, if you aren't intellectually curious, interested in life-long learning and willing to consider a career that includes research, some research-intensive schools will consider you to be less than an ideal fit.

who says you need to do research to be intellectually curious? forgive me, but I didn't know that everyone who goes to a "research oriented" school ends up on the faculty at some medical school. i should tell that to my pcp who went to stanford. And why do you need to have done research before you apply in order to want to do some in medical school?

 

[gujuDoc]

Research experiences widely vary but even as an undergrad research can be more fruitful then one can think. There are several premeds who have posted on SDN in the past who have held multiple publications even as undergrads. Even as an undergrad some professors will let you get a first or second authorship on a paper and you can learn a lot out of research experiences. Some professors will let you go ahead and do a lot of stuff if you show the interest and really let you have your own project and get your hands down and dirty in the work.

If you are really good they will even let you present posters and presentations at research conferences in and out of state. I have had friends who were given the opportunity to travel to different cities and present their research at national research conferences, who have participated in research conferences in the university, and even known people on SDN who have been Rhodes Scholars, Goldwater Scholars, and so forth. These people generally get a lot out of it and learn a lot of techniques that may even be useful in summer after first year of med school should they decide to do some research and have already done research in a medical lab. Sometimes it even helps establish contacts so if you are interested in a certain field of medicine and have done research with people in that dept and then end up at that medical school later on and want to do research you will already have someone to look up if you stay at the same school for med school.

I wouldn't say its all BS at the undergrad level. it all depends on how much you show interest and how much the PI will let you do.

Oh and one more thing, research does not have to be medical research if you plan on doing it. Other research experiences are also looked at.

 

[postbacker]

i know a ton of people who do "research" and can talk about it like they're actually do stuff and have second or third-author publications but admit that they don't do **** for real stuff. my little sister is getting an authorship just for doing a little bit of fact-checking. but my point is that i don't see how working in a lab makes you suitable for a top-ten school. my roomate does research in a lab and has a 3.4 and is gonna be lucky to get a 27, does anyone really think that he's more likely to be a leader in the medical field than me (3.8/41 and diverse ec's)

No, your roomie probably won't set the medical research world on fire, but neither are you. Medical schools with a research focus seek matriculants with a demonstrated interest and experience in research - you seem to be saying you don't have that interest or experience, but you somehow think that adcoms should pick you?

A better question - take someone with your stats (3.8/41) AND research experience, and between you and this other chap, who is going to get more love from the top research medical schools? Yeah, that's right...

Hey, we didn't make the rules the med schools play by. Either play along, or get out of the way...but don't sit around and whine about how unfair it all is...

 

[LizzyM]

i know a ton of people who do "research" and can talk about it like they're actually do stuff and have second or third-author publications but admit that they don't do **** for real stuff. my little sister is getting an authorship just for doing a little bit of fact-checking. but my point is that i don't see how working in a lab makes you suitable for a top-ten school.

It doesn't.

my roomate does research in a lab and has a 3.4 and is gonna be lucky to get a 27,

A nice example of why working in a lab won't necessarily make you suitable for a top-ten.

does anyone really think that he's more likely to be a leader in the medical field than me (3.8/41 and diverse ec's)

No. But you may not be suitable either. How do you think Harvard narrows the field to the 15% of applicants to whom it grants interviews? Of that group, it makes offers of admission to only 40% of those granted interviews. How does it make its cuts? Someone who hasn't had at least some little research experience is going to have to have something pretty special to make up for it.

 

[gujuDoc]

who says you need to do research to be intellectually curious? forgive me, but I didn't know that everyone who goes to a "research oriented" school ends up on the faculty at some medical school. i should tell that to my pcp who went to stanford. And why do you need to have done research before you apply in order to want to do some in medical school?

I think you are misinterpreting what LizzyM is saying. Even if you don't plan on going into research, it is always good to have some level of research if you are going to apply to a top tier research school. WHY???

A lot of these schools try to attract people that seem like they may be interested in becoming an academic physician as that is part of their mission. Although every student might not end up an academian doesn't mean they aren't going to try to attract the ones who don't do that.

I will give you an example where it really helped and hurt two med school applicants I knew.

I have two friends with similar GPAs. One had a 31 and the other 35 MCAT. The former had a 3.98 GPA and the latter a 3.88.

The guy with the 31 ended up getting more acceptances and interviews from top tier schools because he had several several several research hours and presented and attended research conferences both at the university and nationally while the other candidate had 100's of hours of volunteer and teaching activities but not much research hurting them at many places.

So while that may be anecdotal, my point is that it does make a difference.

One more thing, I think the one way you could seriously get around that at a top tier is by having something completely unique that makes you stand out. i.e. you were a dancer for 15 years before coming to medical school, you starred on broadway, etc. Some schools like HMS look for people like that and take those things into consideration too.

 

[LizzyM]

who says you need to do research to be intellectually curious?

No, but the intellectually curious often choose to do research. It is an outcome of their curiosity.

forgive me, but I didn't know that everyone who goes to a "research oriented" school ends up on the faculty at some medical school. i should tell that to my pcp who went to stanford.

Some schools would like to increase the proportion of graduates who go on to careers in academic medicine.

And why do you need to have done research before you apply in order to want to do some in medical school?

Some people (deans!) believe that the best predictor of doing research in med school is having done it in college.

 

[gujuDoc]

Limpkitty,

I think one of the points you are missing is that if you have a 3.8 and 41 and diverse ECs, so does the other few thousand applicants at the top tier schools. So what sets you apart??? You have to look at everything in perspective. At a place like HMS, Hopkins, etc. they get so many 3.8+ GPA/35+ MCAT score combo people who all have done unique things and all have done lots of research and volunteerism that the person with a few extra publications might stand out more then the person who's done zero research.

Your stats are not uncommon in top tiers. That's the point that LizzyM and others are trying to make

 

[limpkitty]

No, your roomie probably won't set the medical research world on fire, but neither are you. Medical schools with a research focus seek matriculants with a demonstrated interest and experience in research - you seem to be saying you don't have that interest or experience, but you somehow think that adcoms should pick you?

A better question - take someone with your stats (3.8/41) AND research experience, and between you and this other chap, who is going to get more love from the top research medical schools? Yeah, that's right...

Hey, we didn't make the rules the med schools play by. Either play along, or get out of the way...but don't sit around and whine about how unfair it all is...

i never said I don't have an interest in research, in fact I do and I'm doing a thesis next spring. The fact is I have interests in a lot of things, beyond just school work, which I think a lot of you sdn'ers are lacking. And look, you want to talk about the way the process works, I'll tell you--stats get you an interview and the interview gets you admitted. The rest is just a bunch of b.s that admissions committies feed people so that they'll think they are interested in all sorts of applicants (like my roommate)

 

[limpkitty]

Limpkitty,

I think one of the points you are missing is that if you have a 3.8 and 41 and diverse ECs, so does the other few thousand applicants at the top tier schools. So what sets you apart??? You have to look at everything in perspective. At a place like HMS, Hopkins, etc. they get so many 3.8+ GPA/35+ MCAT score combo people who all have done unique things and all have done lots of research and volunteerism that the person with a few extra publications might stand out more then the person who's done zero research.

Your stats are not uncommon in top tiers. That's the point that LizzyM and others are trying to make

thousands of people get about a 40 on the MCAT? huh, lets do the math, 100%-99.7%=.003, .003*41,000(number of applicants per year) = 123

huh, it's been a while since I took math, does 123=thousands???? hmmmm, I think I'll do some research on it....

 

[postbacker]

i never said I don't have an interest in research, in fact I do and I'm doing a thesis next spring. The fact is I have interests in a lot of things, beyond just school work, which I think a lot of you sdn'ers are lacking. And look, you want to talk about the way the process works, I'll tell you--stats get you an interview and the interview gets you admitted. The rest is just a bunch of b.s that admissions committies feed people so that they'll think they are interested in all sorts of applicants (like my roommate)

Doing a thesis as part of your UG requirements, or on your own? Lots of people do a senior thesis - nothing too special about that (it can be, but usually these are perfunctory piies of dung).

You seem to have it all figured out (per you: stats get the interview, interview gets the admittance, the rest is BS) so I say, "more power to you!"

Knock yourself out and keep comparing yourself to your mediocre roommate if that is what gets you out of bed every morning.

 

[LizzyM]

thousands of people get about a 40 on the MCAT? huh, lets do the math, 100%-99.7%=.003, .003*41,000(number of applicants per year) = 123

huh, it's been a while since I took math, does 123=thousands???? hmmmm, I think I'll do some research on it....

What proportion of applicants who are snotty brats with a sense of entitlement get interviews... hmm I guess I'll need to do some research, too.



Consider an attitude adjustment before you apply.

 

[variablistic]

thousands of people get about a 40 on the MCAT? huh, lets do the math, 100%-99.7%=.003, .003*41,000(number of applicants per year) = 123

huh, it's been a while since I took math, does 123=thousands???? hmmmm, I think I'll do some research on it....

Well, if the interview gets you in then, I hope you hide the sense of entitlement you've been showing the rest of us.