What is good about the match?

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Haha, I agree with you. I don't know about disdain, but I would definitely substitute the word "horror/nightmares". 🙂

The nice part about the match is that it kinds the best fit for everyone. Once the rank lists are in and the match is run, it spits out the one certain result and you can move on with your life and plan for the future. Waitlist limbo is the worst.
 
The nice part about the match is that it kinds the best fit for everyone. Once the rank lists are in and the match is run, it spits out the one certain result and you can move on with your life and plan for the future. Waitlist limbo is the worst.
Well -- the one thing though is that for the students who DON'T match, the results are potentially more devastating because they might have to scramble into a field they have no interest in. According to the Forbes article, a significant number of students don't match overall. Of course, it's unclear if those people would have done well in a regular admissions setting, either....
 
As mentioned before, the big problem for residencies as compared to med schools is yield. If a small program such as urology, ENT, or a smaller surgical program, ends up short a resident or two, their call schedule is screwed. That's how the whole exploding offers thing came about in the first place - programs seeking to lock down their spots so they wouldn't end up short.

And programs clearly have no interest in playing a "Wait-list" style game where slots trickle down over the month leading up to the start of residency - that would almost inevitably leave some programs hanging or lead them to take some (in their eyes) undesirable applicant at the last minute simply to get a warm body. That's why they've made the match binding and set a variety of other rules - to prevent any back-end dealing or programs poaching applicants post-match. Those rules provide protection for both the programs and the applicants.

If a med school ends up over or under their yield slightly, it's not a huge deal. And they still tend to err on the side of over-accepting to make sure they fill their classes - as seen a couple of years ago when one school offered several accepted students a year deferral because they went way over yield.
 
Well -- the one thing though is that for the students who DON'T match, the results are potentially more devastating because they might have to scramble into a field they have no interest in. According to the Forbes article, a significant number of students don't match overall. Of course, it's unclear if those people would have done well in a regular admissions setting, either....

But your suggestion to make it like MD admissions wouldn't change the fact that people aren't going to match. There are simply too many people interested in urology, for example, so some will not get a spot.

It's purely up to the applicant to decide what they want to do if they don't match. They don't have to SOAP if they don't want to.

And the Forbes article is very misleading with the numbers. The large chunk of people who didn't match were international grads. There are enough residencies for all of the US grads by numbers (whether they want all those spots is another debate).
 
But your suggestion to make it like MD admissions wouldn't change the fact that people aren't going to match. There are simply too many people interested in urology, for example, so some will not get a spot.
Yeah I agree with you. Unclear if having a regular admissions process would change anything for them. :/
 
Seems like many like the idea of changing the match to a system like med admissions except for the fact the wait list would cause last minute problems.

That's an easy fix though. Make all programs basically early acceptance like early match is and create a deadline for choosing your one acceptance by March or whatever. With med schools you can get wait list movement until the last day but that's because they have no earlier date when everything is final. Make the match like I proposed and still make it a legally binding contract by an earlier date. And then keep the SOAP like it already is.
 
Seems like many like the idea of changing the match to a system like med admissions except for the fact the wait list would cause last minute problems.

That's an easy fix though. Make all programs basically early acceptance like early match is and create a deadline for choosing your one acceptance by March or whatever. With med schools you can get wait list movement until the last day but that's because they have no earlier date when everything is final. Make the match like I proposed and still make it a legally binding contract by an earlier date. And then keep the SOAP like it already is.
I have an even better idea: in order to avoid unnecessary delays in your proposed process, applicants could submit a list of their desired residencies, in the form of a list, an ordered list, that ranks the programs by desirability. That way the whole waiting list process could be sped up.

We could speed up the waiting list process on the residency program side too, by having them submit a so-called "Rank Order List" of the candidates they would like to have in their residency programs.

Imagine, with these simple optimizations, I bet the entire system of applying and being accepted to residencies could be performed in under a half an hour!

I'm sending my idea to the Nobel committee first thing Monday morning.
 
I have an even better idea: in order to avoid unnecessary delays in your proposed process, applicants could submit a list of their desired residencies, in the form of a list, an ordered list, that ranks the programs by desirability. That way the whole waiting list process could be sped up.

We could speed up the waiting list process on the residency program side too, by having them submit a so-called "Rank Order List" of the candidates they would like to have in their residency programs.

Imagine, with these simple optimizations, I bet the entire system of applying and being accepted to residencies could be performed in under a half an hour!

I'm sending my idea to the Nobel committee first thing Monday morning.

Wow, that actually sounds like a pretty good idea. I wish I thought of that.
 
Yeah I agree with you. Unclear if having a regular admissions process would change anything for them. :/

Spoiler alert: it wouldn't. The same people would still match, except this time everyone who is not a top tier candidate suffers through months of waiting for waitlists to move.

Rocketbooster, what's your beef with the match? You matched at the best possible program for you. The process worked. Neither your "limit 10" idea or an MD school style admissions process would have given you a better match.
 
This would be a logistical nightmare.

The match is a great algorithm. Some details could be ironed out in the process (like an earlier match for every specialty), but I far prefer the match vs the med school admissions process. Only people with 43 MCATs and multiple scholarship offers look back at the med school admissions process with anything but disdain. The residency match process gives you much more dignity.

But the med school admissions process is legal. The Match was not. The special act of Congress that saved the Match, will be revisited and as a price for extension, reforms will probably be required. With this in mind we should focus on what can be done to improve the system. You say the Match "gives you much more dignity"; how so? In every other case where Congress has seen fit to exempt entities from anti-trust laws (usually professional sports leagues) the legislation was balanced so as to not give too much power to one side. (player unions are mandated) In the haste to enact legislation to save the Match, that did not happen. This has allowed for some very strange policy (such as institution run day care that is open to all staff except residents!?) Some balance must be part of any re-authorization of anti-trust exemption legislation otherwise the legislation itself is open to attack on Constitutional grounds.
 
But the med school admissions process is legal. The Match was not. The special act of Congress that saved the Match, will be revisited and as a price for extension, reforms will probably be required. With this in mind we should focus on what can be done to improve the system. You say the Match "gives you much more dignity"; how so? In every other case where Congress has seen fit to exempt entities from anti-trust laws (usually professional sports leagues) the legislation was balanced so as to not give too much power to one side. (player unions are mandated) In the haste to enact legislation to save the Match, that did not happen. This has allowed for some very strange policy (such as institution run day care that is open to all staff except residents!?) Some balance must be part of any re-authorization of anti-trust exemption legislation otherwise the legislation itself is open to attack on Constitutional grounds.

In addition, the medical school admissions process gave one more choice. There was nothing better than being accepted at 10+ admissions and deciding which place to attend with the offers in hand. Those relinquished spots went to people on the waitlists at the other schools.
 
But the med school admissions process is legal. The Match was not. The special act of Congress that saved the Match, will be revisited and as a price for extension, reforms will probably be required. With this in mind we should focus on what can be done to improve the system. You say the Match "gives you much more dignity"; how so? In every other case where Congress has seen fit to exempt entities from anti-trust laws (usually professional sports leagues) the legislation was balanced so as to not give too much power to one side. (player unions are mandated) In the haste to enact legislation to save the Match, that did not happen. This has allowed for some very strange policy (such as institution run day care that is open to all staff except residents!?) Some balance must be part of any re-authorization of anti-trust exemption legislation otherwise the legislation itself is open to attack on Constitutional grounds.

Exactly.

In addition, the medical school admissions process gave one more choice. There was nothing better than being accepted at 10+ admissions and deciding which place to attend with the offers in hand. Those relinquished spots went to people on the waitlists at the other schools.

Exactly it gives you more choice. The match is legally binding and you are going to that program no matter what. In a regular admissions process, you choose between your multiple acceptances and are not legally required to go to one over the other. Yes ppl less competitive would get fewer acceptances and would have to wait to be on a waitlist. That's why you start the process in January and only give each person like a week tops to accept/decline each acceptance. You could have it all done by March and still have the SOAP like now.

I don't really see why you all love the match when residency/fellowship admissions is the only system that uses it. The rest of the world and all other fields use a normal admissions system where you get multiple acceptances and pick what you want. There's no risk of small programs going unfilled because the competitive fields already have way fewer spots than applicants.

If the match is so perfect, why doesn't every field use it? So every other field except medicine has a bad admissions process but medicine has the one good one? Yea right.
 
Exactly.



Exactly it gives you more choice. The match is legally binding and you are going to that program no matter what. In a regular admissions process, you choose between your multiple acceptances and are not legally required to go to one over the other. Yes ppl less competitive would get fewer acceptances and would have to wait to be on a waitlist. That's why you start the process in January and only give each person like a week tops to accept/decline each acceptance. You could have it all done by March and still have the SOAP like now.

I don't really see why you all love the match when residency/fellowship admissions is the only system that uses it. The rest of the world and all other fields use a normal admissions system where you get multiple acceptances and pick what you want. There's no risk of small programs going unfilled because the competitive fields already have way fewer spots than applicants.

If the match is so perfect, why doesn't every field use it? So every other field except medicine has a bad admissions process but medicine has the one good one? Yea right.

So what happens when a program that you like, but isn't your top choice, offers you an acceptance and gives you a week to decide. Your top choice is still making their decision about you. Do you accept the offer? Or do you decline and risk not getting an offer at all in hopes of getting an offer from your top choice? All of the power gets put in the hands of the residency programs if that was the system.

It's not just the less competitive applicants that would be hurt. It's everyone but the very very top applicants. Consider a specialty like neurosurgery, where most programs only have 2 or 3 residency slots per year. Hypothetically, this year there are 10 applicants that are just soars above the rest. Step scores in the 260s, all honors, AOA, 10+ basic science publications, etc...basically every top program is drooling over them. With an admissions process like medical school, these 10 applicants would probably hold the majority of acceptances at all of the programs they applied to. Everyone else would be on the waitlist for months, waiting for these people to make their decision, even though there are still some extremely qualified applicants out there. It would be a complete mess, with so much shuffling going on towards the end of the process. And how much time do you give someone to accept an offer once they get off the waitlist? And what if they end up getting off another waitlist after that one? Do you not see the problem with this?

You can't compare medicine to any other profession. EVERY graduate from medical school MUST complete a residency (or at the very least an intern year) in order to be a practicing physician. I can't think of another degree that has this requirement.
 
The reason I'm for limiting it to 10 is because I feel I was very subjectively left out of interview invites at certain programs around me. And being familiar with the programs, I know I was definitely qualified to interview there since I knew others who did. I also know there were many top top applicants who interviewed who had no desire to go here and just used the interview(s) as safeties. And as expected, they ranked those programs low and matched at better programs. I feel if they had been limited to 10, then they would not have wasted a spot applying there. As a result, those programs would actually be more likely to interview ppl actually interested in those programs and ppl like me would have been less likely to be left out of being interviewed.

If you really think the match is a perfect system and the whole interview invite process is objective then you're delusional. The truth is there are tons of ppl with similar apps and they have to very subjectively, arbitrarily choose to invite and leave out great applicants in many cases.

If you think 10 is too limiting for top applicants, then cap it at 20 instead. In ophtho, you have 117 programs with the top applicants applying to 40+ and the average applicants applying to 70-80+ because they just want to match. That's way too many.
 
The reason I'm for limiting it to 10 is because I feel I was very subjectively left out of interview invites at certain programs around me. And being familiar with the programs, I know I was definitely qualified to interview there since I knew others who did. I also know there were many top top applicants who interviewed who had no desire to go here and just used the interview(s) as safeties. And as expected, they ranked those programs low and matched at better programs. I feel if they had been limited to 10, then they would not have wasted a spot applying there. As a result, those programs would actually be more likely to interview ppl actually interested in those programs and ppl like me would have been less likely to be left out of being interviewed.

If you really think the match is a perfect system and the whole interview invite process is objective then you're delusional. The truth is there are tons of ppl with similar apps and they have to very subjectively, arbitrarily choose to invite and leave out great applicants in many cases.

If that program filled it's spots, then there's really no argument. They felt the people that they did interview were more competitive than you. Is it disappointing? Of course. But if someone wasn't good enough to get the interview, then why would they be good enough to get the actual residency spot?

Of course it's not perfect, nothing is. But it's much better than any alternative. Limiting applicants to 10 applications is silly and just as unfair as you not getting an interview because someone more qualified got it. What happens when a top applicant falls through the cracks of his/her 10 applications and doesn't match at all, even though they were way more competitive than someone who matched to a "lower tier" program. How is that fair?
 
If that program filled it's spots, then there's really no argument. They felt the people that they did interview were more competitive than you. Is it disappointing? Of course. But if someone wasn't good enough to get the interview, then why would they be good enough to get the actual residency spot?

Of course it's not perfect, nothing is. But it's much better than any alternative. Limiting applicants to 10 applications is silly and just as unfair as you not getting an interview because someone more qualified got it. What happens when a top applicant falls through the cracks of his/her 10 applications and doesn't match at all, even though they were way more competitive than someone who matched to a "lower tier" program. How is that fair?

I said limit it to 20 then. That should be enough for the top applicants to apply to many dream programs and still apply to enough mid-tier to secure a residency spot in case the top programs don't work out.
 
I said limit it to 20 then. That should be enough for the top applicants to apply to many dream programs and still apply to enough mid-tier to secure a residency spot in case the top programs don't work out.

That definitely seems more reasonable. I could be wrong, but it seems like people apply to a ton of places to make sure they get enough interviews, but they don't end up going to nearly as many in comparison to the number of applications. Does anyone happen to have numbers on the average number of interviews applicants go on?
 
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The reason I'm for limiting it to 10 is because I feel I was very subjectively left out of interview invites at certain programs around me. And being familiar with the programs, I know I was definitely qualified to interview there since I knew others who did. I also know there were many top top applicants who interviewed who had no desire to go here and just used the interview(s) as safeties. And as expected, they ranked those programs low and matched at better programs. I feel if they had been limited to 10, then they would not have wasted a spot applying there. As a result, those programs would actually be more likely to interview ppl actually interested in those programs and ppl like me would have been less likely to be left out of being interviewed.

If you really think the match is a perfect system and the whole interview invite process is objective then you're delusional. The truth is there are tons of ppl with similar apps and they have to very subjectively, arbitrarily choose to invite and leave out great applicants in many cases.

If you think 10 is too limiting for top applicants, then cap it at 20 instead. In ophtho, you have 117 programs with the top applicants applying to 40+ and the average applicants applying to 70-80+ because they just want to match. That's way too many.

I wanted to interview at MGH but I didn't get it. I got Hopkins so I know I was qualified to get MGH, but I didn't get it. They can't interview everyone who's qualified. Life goes on.

Even if you interviewed at those places the "top tier" guys used as safeties and ranked low, you still wouldn't have matched there, unless the place went unfilled. You would have been below everyone else on the rank list anyway, most likely. Your limit to 10 rule would have people not applying based on true preference, but rather on probability of matching. That takes the power out of the hands of the applicants. The programs would still fill, but now the applicants would have to play crazy games to match. I would have had to only apply in the states bordering my state because I had no idea if I was going to get interviews at places I was interested that were outside my region (some of them ended up being my favorite programs). Also, you're kind of assuming a lot when you say that "top tier" candidates hoard interviews that they're not serious about.

No one said the match system is perfect. But it's INSANELY better than these horrible ideas you're postulating here.
 
That definitely seems more reasonable. I could be wrong, but it seems like people apply to a ton of places to make sure they get enough interviews, but they don't end up going to nearly as many in comparison to the number of applications. Does anyone happen to have numbers on the average number of interviews applicants go on?

In my experience, which is radiology, even when people apply to >50 places, they only go on about 10-15 interviews (15-20+ when couples matching). Bear in mind that any specialty where you also have to interview at prelims and TYs makes it difficult to even attend all the interviews you get. There is tremendous drop-off in interviewees in January. I canceled all my interviews I had scheduled in January (4-5 IIRC) simply because I hit my desired # of interviews by December (which was around 15).

If you don't get an interview, tough luck. It happens. Sometimes it's a crapshoot. But to blame "top tier" candidates for over-applying and stealing your spots is quite silly. And if the top-tier candidate wants to go that extra mile to ensure he/she doesn't go unmatched, have at it. They earned it.
 
I wanted to interview at MGH but I didn't get it. I got Hopkins so I know I was qualified to get MGH, but I didn't get it. They can't interview everyone who's qualified. Life goes on.

Even if you interviewed at those places the "top tier" guys used as safeties and ranked low, you still wouldn't have matched there, unless the place went unfilled. You would have been below everyone else on the rank list anyway, most likely. Your limit to 10 rule would have people not applying based on true preference, but rather on probability of matching. That takes the power out of the hands of the applicants. The programs would still fill, but now the applicants would have to play crazy games to match. I would have had to only apply in the states bordering my state because I had no idea if I was going to get interviews at places I was interested that were outside my region (some of them ended up being my favorite programs). Also, you're kind of assuming a lot when you say that "top tier" candidates hoard interviews that they're not serious about.

No one said the match system is perfect. But it's INSANELY better than these horrible ideas you're postulating here.

If given the opportunity to interview, you would have the ability to out interview the applicant who would have interviewed there under the current system. At the end of the day they are hiring someone they can personally work with well.
 
If given the opportunity to interview, you would have the ability to out interview the applicant who would have interviewed there under the current system. At the end of the day they are hiring someone they can personally work with well.

Agreed.

Kaput doesn't really understand what I'm referring to because radiology isn't that competitive. There are 80 unfilled spots of 1100 every year. There was one unfilled spot in ophtho this year that was later filled. It's not as hard to get interviews in rads. Simple as that.

And you actually might still have a good chance of matching bc some of the top applicants wouldn't be there if they were limited to 20. A lot of the cancellations do not go the next most qualified applicant but to the ppl begging the programs the most for interviews. A lot of the interview invites and match process is bogus. A lot of places won't even take you seriously if you're not from their region. It's all subjective bs.

At the end of the day I'm happy where I matched for ophtho but you'll never see me say the match system is awesome because the whole admissions process is subjective as hell.

Just match somewhere and if you're like most ppl going into private practice then it won't even matter which program you went to. You can always move to your preferred location when you're looking for a job because you actually have full choice.
 
Exactly.



Exactly it gives you more choice. The match is legally binding and you are going to that program no matter what. In a regular admissions process, you choose between your multiple acceptances and are not legally required to go to one over the other. Yes ppl less competitive would get fewer acceptances and would have to wait to be on a waitlist. That's why you start the process in January and only give each person like a week tops to accept/decline each acceptance. You could have it all done by March and still have the SOAP like now.

I don't really see why you all love the match when residency/fellowship admissions is the only system that uses it. The rest of the world and all other fields use a normal admissions system where you get multiple acceptances and pick what you want. There's no risk of small programs going unfilled because the competitive fields already have way fewer spots than applicants.

If the match is so perfect, why doesn't every field use it? So every other field except medicine has a bad admissions process but medicine has the one good one? Yea right.
If you are seriously proposing to resurrect the ante-match system of residency programs making short-term job offers, then you have no sense of history and I sincerely hope your dreams come true in some similar environment, so you can personally experience the powerlessness and hell of the system that was in existence before the match.

Those who don't understand the match are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
 
If you are seriously proposing to resurrect the ante-match system of residency programs making short-term job offers, then you have no sense of history and I sincerely hope your dreams come true in some similar environment, so you can personally experience the powerlessness and hell of the system that was in existence before the match.

Those who don't understand the match are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.

Yea because you were around 30 years ago when they didn't use the match. Idiot
 
Agreed.

Kaput doesn't really understand what I'm referring to because radiology isn't that competitive. There are 80 unfilled spots of 1100 every year. There was one unfilled spot in ophtho this year that was later filled. It's not as hard to get interviews in rads. Simple as that.

And you actually might still have a good chance of matching bc some of the top applicants wouldn't be there if they were limited to 20. A lot of the cancellations do not go the next most qualified applicant but to the ppl begging the programs the most for interviews. A lot of the interview invites and match process is bogus. A lot of places won't even take you seriously if you're not from their region. It's all subjective bs.

At the end of the day I'm happy where I matched for ophtho but you'll never see me say the match system is awesome because the whole admissions process is subjective as hell.

Just match somewhere and if you're like most ppl going into private practice then it won't even matter which program you went to. You can always move to your preferred location when you're looking for a job because you actually have full choice.

You are advocating for a system that takes choice and freedom OUT of applicants' hands, because you paternalistically believe that you know what is best for others. You're jealous that you didn't get an interview or two that you think you "deserved" because someone more qualified than you "took" it, so you claim the whole system is bogus.
 
Yea because you were around 30 years ago when they didn't use the match. Idiot

Dude, give it up. Your ideas are terrible, and I have a feeling even you are beginning to realize this, which is why you're resorting to name calling at this point.

I'm sorry you were frustrated with the match process this year. But your "solutions" are poor ones, and would be a huge step backwards.
 
Agreed.

Kaput doesn't really understand what I'm referring to because radiology isn't that competitive. There are 80 unfilled spots of 1100 every year. There was one unfilled spot in ophtho this year that was later filled. It's not as hard to get interviews in rads. Simple as that.

The top radiology programs are just as competitive as any competitive specialty. The specialty has unfilled spots because there are too many spots.

Top programs are a complete crapshoot in radiology. I go to a top 25 med school, am AOA, have multiple publications and Steps >260 and got rejected at 5 of the top 10 places. Friends of mine with 270s and similar apps also got rejected at several top programs. Tell me that's not competitive! People just assume radiology isn't competitive anymore because those random community/low-tier academic places don't fill. In reality, it's pretty tough at the top (like internal medicine).
 
Yea because you were around 30 years ago when they didn't use the match. Idiot
Actually, I was. But that is neither here nor there.

You keep proposing to undo the transfer of power away from the residency programs to the applicants. This is basically evil, and you have no idea of the harm you would create. None.

If you are willing to eliminate the ability of programs to make job offers with time limits, and instead allow applicants to collect offers until some deadline like March 15th, and then allow them to choose their favorite program while letting other applicants move up or off the wait list, then congratulations you have just reimplemented the current match system, albeit more slowly and more agonizing than just collecting everybody's damn desires and processing them all in under 20 minutes.

Those who do not understand the match are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
 
If given the opportunity to interview, you would have the ability to out interview the applicant who would have interviewed there under the current system. At the end of the day they are hiring someone they can personally work with well.

That's assuming quite a bit. At least in radiology the interviews just screen if you're a sociopath. For most applicants, the interview day is just so that you can visit the program and meet the residents. Virtually everyone has a great and positive interview day, so the interviews don't really bump applicants up (though they can bring people down).

Lots of people love comforting themselves by thinking the slate is clean on interview day and you're all being judged equally. No way.
 
That's assuming quite a bit. At least in radiology the interviews just screen if you're a sociopath. For most applicants, the interview day is just so that you can visit the program and meet the residents. Virtually everyone has a great and positive interview day, so the interviews don't really bump applicants up (though they can bring people down).

Lots of people love comforting themselves by thinking the slate is clean on interview day and you're all being judged equally. No way.

Yea this guy is right on this.

Interviews probably weed out the weird personalities but most ppl are normal and probably interview well. They definitely pre rank you. So if you get the last minute interview you're probably dead last. Now there are exceptions like if you're outside their region then good chance they just skipped over you bc they didn't think you actually want to live there.

And yes I know rads is competitive at the very top. But ophtho is competitive from bottom to top.
 
Lots of people love comforting themselves by thinking the slate is clean on interview day and you're all being judged equally. No way.

Hope is eternal. Great psych trick to get yourself to do well in an interview, though.
 
The reason I'm for limiting it to 10 (adjusted to 20 in later post) is because I feel I was very subjectively left out of interview invites at certain programs around me. And being familiar with the programs, I know I was definitely qualified to interview there since I knew others who did. I also know there were many top top applicants who interviewed who had no desire to go here and just used the interview(s) as safeties. And as expected, they ranked those programs low and matched at better programs. I feel if they had been limited to 10, then they would not have wasted a spot applying there. As a result, those programs would actually be more likely to interview ppl actually interested in those programs and ppl like me would have been less likely to be left out of being interviewed.

If you really think the match is a perfect system and the whole interview invite process is objective then you're delusional. The truth is there are tons of ppl with similar apps and they have to very subjectively, arbitrarily choose to invite and leave out great applicants in many cases.

If you think 10 is too limiting for top applicants, then cap it at 20 instead. In ophtho, you have 117 programs with the top applicants applying to 40+ and the average applicants applying to 70-80+ because they just want to match. That's way too many.

This is not the craziest idea ever. The idea would be to limit the number of applications so that programs would know that applicants are more "serious" about them. The theory would be that although applicants would have less total applications, the would have a higher interview offer rate as programs would have less total applicants to review. Note that this has nothing to do with the match at all.

Would this change the results? As mentioned above, in ophthal essentially all of the spots fill. So, if rocketbooster got different interviews and then matched at a different location, presumably some other applicant would also have gotten different interviews and would match elsewhere. Since all of the spots are filled, if any applicant who didn't match the "old way" now matches, that means that someone else now doesn't match. Basically, you simply trade winners and losers -- and whether the net result is "better" is going to be hard to say. My guess is that people will still go on the maximum number of interviews, so the net cost would be the same.

Plus, you would need to make the rule 20 applications per field -- so this might simply drive people to apply to 2 fields and completely defeat the purpose. Also you probably need to make an exception for couple's matches, which might encourage students to create fake couples to get more applications. Not going to work, I think.

Now, for the question of the match itself. Suggested on this thread is the idea of allowing multiple offers, which then the student picks by some certain date, followed by additional offers off a waitlist. This is EXACTLY what happens in SOAP. Whether this is "better" or "worse" than the match depends upon your situation. One big difference is that medical school is education where you pay tuition, where residency where you are paid a salary. If I have a medical school with 10 spots, I can offer spots to 20 people, as whether I get 8 or 12 people in the end doesn't matter -- my school works fine either way (plus there are 9/10 people who applied who didn't get any spot at all, so I can always fill my last few spots at the end if needed). In residency, I have 10 salaries. I can't have 12 people. So I can only offer 10 spots at any one time, because I can't afford too many people.

Here's what will happen: the top 25% of people will get all of the offers in round 1. They will have lots of offers, and get to pick and choose what they want. The other 75% will get no offers at all, and will need to sweat it out. Assuming that each round lasts a week (or perhaps half a week), this will continue round after round. If you're a really strong candidate, this system will work well. If you're a middle of the road candidate, this will be misery as it will take several rounds before any offer arrives.

Above someone mentioned that the match doesn't give you "choice" because you're forced to take your match. This isn't exactly true. For all you know, you would get "offers" from every program on your match list. You just choose which program you want first on your rank list. So the amount of choice is the same, you just make your decisions in a different order -- you choose where you want to go prior to offers. Does that matter? Assuming you ranked 10 places and all of them offer you a spot -- wouldn't you simply take the program you ranked #1? Or is there something I am missing?

As I mentioned in another thread, the only thing I can think of that might actually help is an early admissions process. Let candidates apply to a single program as early admission. If the program decides to take them, then they can cancel all other interviews and be done. Programs would be limited in how many early admission offers they could fill (perhaps 25-33%). This would cut down on some interviewing. It would likely benefit the most competitive applicants most, but I could imagine that students who want to stay at their home program, or people with a clear need for a certain location might be able to do so. No idea how this would work for couples (although I guess if only one person in a couple got an early offer, they could decline it). Is this worth the agony of implementation -- not sure.
 
Exactly.



Exactly it gives you more choice. The match is legally binding and you are going to that program no matter what. In a regular admissions process, you choose between your multiple acceptances and are not legally required to go to one over the other. Yes ppl less competitive would get fewer acceptances and would have to wait to be on a waitlist. That's why you start the process in January and only give each person like a week tops to accept/decline each acceptance. You could have it all done by March and still have the SOAP like now.

I don't really see why you all love the match when residency/fellowship admissions is the only system that uses it. The rest of the world and all other fields use a normal admissions system where you get multiple acceptances and pick what you want. There's no risk of small programs going unfilled because the competitive fields already have way fewer spots than applicants.

If the match is so perfect, why doesn't every field use it? So every other field except medicine has a bad admissions process but medicine has the one good one? Yea right.

Yup, I always found job applications downright thrilling, and don't get me started about my med. school application. Ah, glory days!
 
The match shouldn't have to exist. Either we finish medical school ready to practice like the old days, with none of this family medicine residency bull****, or we apply to "medical school" straight into residency tracks. None of this match BS.

The biggest problem with the match is that, unlike basically every other job/contest on the planet, you have only one attempt at it. It should be open to anyone with an MD, even if they've completed, or are completing, some form of post-grad training.
 
Seems like many like the idea of changing the match to a system like med admissions except for the fact the wait list would cause last minute problems.

That's an easy fix though. Make all programs basically early acceptance like early match is and create a deadline for choosing your one acceptance by March or whatever. With med schools you can get wait list movement until the last day but that's because they have no earlier date when everything is final. Make the match like I proposed and still make it a legally binding contract by an earlier date. And then keep the SOAP like it already is.

Unlike med schools, most residency programs have a fraction of spots that med schools do and yet get hundreds and hundreds of applications. Furthermore, instead of 126 schools, you now have thousands of programs. Than many moving parts would make your idea of trickle down acceptances and waitlists be prohibitively long.
 
The match shouldn't have to exist. Either we finish medical school ready to practice like the old days, with none of this family medicine residency bullcrap, or we apply to "medical school" straight into residency tracks. None of this match BS.

The biggest problem with the match is that, unlike basically every other job/contest on the planet, you have only one attempt at it. It should be open to anyone with an MD, even if they've completed, or are completing, some form of post-grad training.

How many people actually come to med school knowing what they want to do (and then actually do that). 20%? 50%? If this were the case, then I would be an orthopedist right now...


The match is open to everyone. Any resident or attending can choose to enter the match again. We had a few residents from my residency who re-entered the match in a different specialty. It's rare but can be done.
 
Unlike med schools, most residency programs have a fraction of spots that med schools do and yet get hundreds and hundreds of applications. Furthermore, instead of 126 schools, you now have thousands of programs. Than many moving parts would make your idea of trickle down acceptances and waitlists be prohibitively long.

Ophtho has 117 programs.
 
I would argue that the match should only be held responsible for the 5.6% US allopathic non-match rate.

The Match cannot be responsible for DOs who attempt to find a spot. The DO's have their own set of residencies and their own match (https://natmatch.com/aoairp/) and if they want to jump into the over-saturated MD fray, that's totally one of those "buyer beware" situations. (I do realize that accreditation for DO and MD residencies will soon fall under the same jurisdiction and I wonder how this will affect both matches...)

I think it's also important to clarify whether the 5.6% non-match rate is pre or post SOAP. If a significant fraction of the 5.6% manage to find positions with SOAP, then I wouldn't say that the Match did a terrible job.

Regarding the salary issue, I think it's safe to say that medical training is not a free market in many ways. I also don't think the Match is entirely responsible for the depressed salaries. Congress has frozen the funding for residency spots since 1995... so our salaries are roughly 20 years in the past -- that may contribute significantly to this problem.

Regarding pros, I think the Match is moving towards greater fairness than one would think. In my specialty, all the programs committed to no communication with the applicants after the interview, which saved many applicants from the heartbreak of broken promises/biased decisions based on said promises.

By 2020 there will only be one match for DOs and MDs. This 2 matches business is soon to be a thing of the past
 
Ophtho has 117 programs.

And there is cross applications between specialties (ie people apply to NS and GS, IM and FM), pre-lim applications, etc. When all said and done, there are thousands of programs. This would be a logistical nightmare. That there are 117 ophtho programs- in a specialty that is by comparison miniscule compared to the large specialties- just highlights how many residency programs in many different specialties there are
 
Above someone mentioned that the match doesn't give you "choice" because you're forced to take your match. This isn't exactly true. For all you know, you would get "offers" from every program on your match list. You just choose which program you want first on your rank list. So the amount of choice is the same, you just make your decisions in a different order -- you choose where you want to go prior to offers. Does that matter? Assuming you ranked 10 places and all of them offer you a spot -- wouldn't you simply take the program you ranked #1? Or is there something I am missing?

Yep, one little detail. Restraint of trade. This is the very reason Congress had to act.

If anyone is interested in reading:
Title 15 Chapter 1 U.S. Code § 37b
 
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The match shouldn't have to exist. Either we finish medical school ready to practice like the old days, with none of this family medicine residency bullcrap, or we apply to "medical school" straight into residency tracks. None of this match BS.

The biggest problem with the match is that, unlike basically every other job/contest on the planet, you have only one attempt at it. It should be open to anyone with an MD, even if they've completed, or are completing, some form of post-grad training.

The problem with residency tracks is that I wasn't sure what type of doctor I (and many a classmate) wanted to be until they had somewhat progressed through medical school. If a super competitive applicant was on the FM residency track, and nobody wants to switch out of the ortho/derm track (and these candidates would get smoked by the person on the FM track), then what would happen in your system? The competitive applicant is SOL?

I knew people who came into medical school thinking derm/ortho/rad onc and decided to go into FM/peds/IM (and vice-versa). Residency 'tracks' beginning from MS1 aren't practical IMO.
 
dat casual racism tho

You're dead wrong about Pittsburgh.

(1) People. Pittsburgh relatively diverse, and getting more so. Big African American population, growing asian community, small but growing latino population, lots of small groups (e.g. the largest Nepalese populations in the US). It's no NYC, but it's hardly hick-town. It's also changing in that the old, blue collar "yinzers" are moving to Florida and there's a heck of a lot more young professionals in tech, finance and healthcare.

(2) Food. I'm from LA and can tell you that I know more great, affordable, restaurants in Pittsburgh then home. There's a great foodie scene, craft beer scene, craft distilleries, etc. The ethnic food is also great (good Thai, ethiopian, indian, etc.), though I will admit that the Mexican food is extremely sub par.

(3) Sports. Pittsburgh is a better sports town then Philly will ever be (though I am a Chip Kelly believer). Simple fact right there.
 
I worry that an early decision system would have negative consequences similar to how exploding offers did prior to the match.

Programs could tell applicants that they like (home or rotators), you have a spot, but only if you apply early decision, thus depriving that candidate of the ability to look at other programs and compare and rank as they like.

They could also let it be known that they will only be filling with early decision applicants, creating a pre-match scenario all over again.
 
The match shouldn't have to exist. Either we finish medical school ready to practice like the old days, with none of this family medicine residency bullcrap, or we apply to "medical school" straight into residency tracks. None of this match BS.

So one of our deans thinks that medical school and residency should be combined, but I'm still not clear on how she proposes to combine them--whether you apply to the specialties in your hospital after you decide or you enter into medical school on a residency track. If it's the former, then my class would have been screwed in Peds--we have 23 people going into Peds, but our home program only has 12 slots. If it's the latter, then several of my classmates would have ended up unhappy--I know of one girl who came in wanting to do IM and is now doing ortho, and several girls who were trying to decide between GS and FM and Peds right up until applications were due. It would've worked out for me because I've been Peds since the beginning, but I'm an anomaly. I can't imagine having to choose your career before you even know what the options really are.
 
So one of our deans thinks that medical school and residency should be combined, but I'm still not clear on how she proposes to combine them--whether you apply to the specialties in your hospital after you decide or you enter into medical school on a residency track. If it's the former, then my class would have been screwed in Peds--we have 23 people going into Peds, but our home program only has 12 slots. If it's the latter, then several of my classmates would have ended up unhappy--I know of one girl who came in wanting to do IM and is now doing ortho, and several girls who were trying to decide between GS and FM and Peds right up until applications were due. It would've worked out for me because I've been Peds since the beginning, but I'm an anomaly. I can't imagine having to choose your career before you even know what the options really are.

Yeah I've heard of people applying to a specialty in september, only to realize that they wanted to do something else and reapplying to another with all the bs it entails like getting all those LORs in order.
 
I can't imagine having to choose your career before you even know what the options really are.

We already do that. I don't see how the preclin and half a year of clin contribute any meaningful information to students.

The MD, like the DDS, should grant one the privilege of providing general medical care. Medical education is ineffective, medical school is a pointless exercise in futility and sucking-up, and the curriculum is based on a century-old recommendation paper.

The dentists are out day one post-graduation ready to practice. Their craft is not easier than ours. But their schools actually teach them how to do it, not how to suck-up and shadow people. Anyone who trumpets how medicine is so much more complicated and cannot be practiced without a residency in family medicine is delusional and hasn't thought this through.

Three years of medical school. Two years of "family medicine" residency right after. Everyone gets the MD and general practice privileges. No match required. Wanna specialize? Apply later on, just like every other job on the planet.
 
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