What is SDN's problem with gunners?

[Mr. Itchy]

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If you needed heart surgery would a neurotic perfectionist who stakes his or her pride on every procedure really be bad? No! We all happen to be going (or at least want to go) into a field where perfection is expected. The person who lazily strolls his or her way through premed and medical school is probably going to handle his or her career the same way - it is all part of their personality.


I'm a gunner. I like doing things as near to perfect as possible and I don't like when people with the other attitude casually mess up my grades, data, etc. I like working with other gunners because we keep each other on task and as near perfect as possible. Why is this bad?

When I'm not on the job, I take life quite casually... But if there is a job to be done, you might as well do it as close to perfect as possible.

 

[pennybridge]

so does this count as masturbation for the day or are you going to do it again later, like in the shower or something?

 

[Kikaku21]

If you needed heart surgery would a neurotic perfectionist who stakes his or her pride on every procedure really be bad? No! We all happen to be going (or at least want to go) into a field where perfection is expected. The person who lazily strolls his or her way through premed and medical school is probably going to handle his or her career the same way - it is all part of their personality.


I'm a gunner. I like doing things as near to perfect as possible and I don't like when people with the other attitude casually mess up my grades, data, etc. I like working with other gunners because we keep each other on task and as near perfect as possible. Why is this bad?

When I'm not on the job, I take life quite casually... But if there is a job to be done, you might as well do it as close to perfect as possible.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being competitive. I think SDNer's get upset about people who deliberately sabotage other peoples chances at success with their behavior.

 

[Funky]

SDN has a problem with gunners? i thought everyone has a little gunner inside of them

 

[epigastric]

so does this count as masturbation for the day or are you going to do it again later, like in the shower or something?

My SO notwithstanding, will you marry me?

I think most people consider gunners to have a significant sabotage element to their personality. I don't care if you're exceptional. I care if you're exceptional because you stole all the appropriate textbooks in the library, or "forget" to tell someone that chapter X will be on the test. That person, I want to stay as far away from my heart as possible.

 

[spicedmanna]

Neuroses and perfection are expected, nasty attitude not.

If you ask any number of patients who they would truly prefer, they would cite the doctor who treated them well, not necessarily the most perfect technician. Most doctors are at least proficient, so competence isn't necessarily the determining factor. The highest incidences of malpractice go the meanies with attitudes and the ones who don't care, not the least competent.

Also, being an overachiever doesn't make you a gunner.

If you needed heart surgery would a neurotic perfectionist who stakes his or her pride on every procedure really be bad? No! We all happen to be going (or at least want to go) into a field where perfection is expected. The person who lazily strolls his or her way through premed and medical school is probably going to handle his or her career the same way - it is all part of their personality.


I'm a gunner. I like doing things as near to perfect as possible and I don't like when people with the other attitude casually mess up my grades, data, etc. I like working with other gunners because we keep each other on task and as near perfect as possible. Why is this bad?

When I'm not on the job, I take life quite casually... But if there is a job to be done, you might as well do it as close to perfect as possible.

 

[armybound]

Neuroses and perfection are expected, nasty attitude not.

If you ask any number of patients who they would truly prefer, they would cite the doctor who treated them well, not necessarily the most perfect technician. Most doctors are at least proficient, so competence isn't necessarily the determining factor. The highest incidences of malpractice go the meanies with attitudes and the ones who don't care, not the least competent.

Also, being an overachiever doesn't make you a gunner.

If I was an adcomm I'd admit you just for this post. Hell, I'd even give you free tuition.

Though I have an issue with your avatar.. why does it look like superior temporal gyrus is continuous with inferior frontal gyrus (which is running in the incorrect orientation)? Either that or the brainstem's going the wrong direction.. something's definitely weird there.

 

[spicedmanna]

If I was an adcomm I'd admit you just for this post. Hell, I'd even give you free tuition.

Thanks. 😀

Though I have an issue with your avatar.. why does it look like superior temporal gyrus is continuous with inferior frontal gyrus (which is running in the incorrect orientation)? Either that or the brainstem's going the wrong direction.. something's definitely weird there.

I never noticed that. It's definitely no Frank Netter. I figured it was Cubist and sort of never looked any deeper than that. Then, again, it wasn't drawn by me.

 

[sle3pyguii]

Gunners, I have no problem with. Like in my post, I will probably develop a gunner attitude to try to beat that Gunner guy.

The attitude/personality of some gunners is what people hate.

 

[DoctorPardi]

Gunner is usually meant to be a person who takes advantage of others. That is, giving them wrong information before a test, telling on them, or just being annoying.

I don't think there is anything wrong with working hard, or trying to be as good a person as you can be. The only thing is, groups of people tend to make fun of different groups of people. There aren't many 4.0ers out there, and if you are one, you're likely to be at least a little made fun of just because you're different or perceived to be "better" than others.

Again, I think a gunner is someone who uses other's to promote themselves, while a perfectionist or hard worker is something different.

 

[KaraKiz]

Wikipedia:
A gunner, especially in medical schools, dental schools, law schools, and other professional schools, is a person who is competitive, and overly-ambitious. A gunner will compromise peer relationships in order to obtain recognition and praise from instructors and superiors.

I wouldnt want my surgeon to be a jerk. A gunner is generally not a friendly person. If you would help out a classmate who needed it, like by helping him understand a concept, you're not a gunner. A gunner would tell that student the wrong answer so he would get a better score on the exam. You can still be ambitious, hardworking, and a perfectionist without being a gunner.

 

[Quix]

Wikipedia:
A gunner, especially in medical schools, dental schools, law schools, and other professional schools, is a person who is competitive, and overly-ambitious. A gunner will compromise peer relationships in order to obtain recognition and praise from instructors and superiors.

I wouldnt want my surgeon to be a jerk. A gunner is generally not a friendly person. If you would help out a classmate who needed it, like by helping him understand a concept, you're not a gunner. A gunner would tell that student the wrong answer so he would get a better score on the exam. You can still be ambitious, hardworking, and a perfectionist without being a gunner.

QFT. I've met people that demand a lot of themselves, but I have yet to meet someone who would willfully undermine someone else in the process. The former is cool, the latter isn't.

 

[gujuDoc]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being competitive. I think SDNer's get upset about people who deliberately sabotage other peoples chances at success with their behavior.

This is EXACTLY THE REAL DEFINITION OF GUNNER.

Gunner doesn't mean someone who is a perfectionist. I know a lot of perfectionists who have 4.0 GPAs, good MCAT scores, equally good well rounded personalities and capable who I'd prefer to be my doctors any day over some of the lazier students.

But ...............

They are NOT GUNNERS!!

A gunner is someone who characteristically will play by dirty politics to get what they want. They'll do everything to sabotage their peers rather then working together with their peers. They'll go out of their way to fail their students just so they can be at the top of the class. They are people who if you are struggling and need help with something, they'll flat out refuse you because they want an edge over you.

Gunners are not people who study constantly but people who will do anything and everything to get what they want even if they trample over other students and do it via some very dirty tactics.

That's not the kind of doctor I'd want. I'd want someone who works hard, knows their stuff, and also upholds the integrity and dignity in their working life that is expected of them.

 

[Law2Doc]

Wikipedia:
A gunner, especially in medical schools, dental schools, law schools, and other professional schools, is a person who is competitive, and overly-ambitious. A gunner will compromise peer relationships in order to obtain recognition and praise from instructors and superiors.

I wouldnt want my surgeon to be a jerk. A gunner is generally not a friendly person. If you would help out a classmate who needed it, like by helping him understand a concept, you're not a gunner. A gunner would tell that student the wrong answer so he would get a better score on the exam. You can still be ambitious, hardworking, and a perfectionist without being a gunner.

Agree. A gunner is not just a perfectionist or someone who works hard and does well. He is someone who does well at the expense of others. He is the person who will raise his hand during your presentation to intentionally make you look stupid. He will correct you in front of superiors for the same reason. He is the person who will circulate inaccurate or unhelpful resources or information to his classmates in order to cause them to waste time. He is the person who hides books on reserve at the library after he is finished using them. Generally he is NOT who you would want as your doctor, because he only gives a damn to the extent it helps for him. OP, I doubt you are a gunner, because gunners don't usually brag about it. They tend to be covert and it tends to be part of their innate personality, not something they proclaim. It is a very negative term.

 

[Misfit!]

so does this count as masturbation for the day or are you going to do it again later, like in the shower or something?

lol.

Hardworker and Gunner are not the same thing. Gunners are not always the best, smartest, or most detail-oriented. One med student described gunners at his school as those who sit in the front row before class starts and have competitions to see who can solve a crossword puzzle the fastest, and who are in your face the second you get your exam back to ask you how you did while lying about their score and rubbing it in your face.

 

[gujuDoc]

QFT. I've met people that demand a lot of themselves, but I have yet to meet someone who would willfully undermine someone else in the process. The former is cool, the latter isn't.

I think the closest I've seen anything like this was when this girl I know had borrowed a copy of an old sample exam one semester only to try and steal it from the person who let her look at it. Then she took a bunch of old exams and notes for another class from another friend who is now in med school and never returned it to that person.

There are a couple of other people I know that I'd call gunners too. But I'll refrain from discussing those situations.

 

[Law2Doc]

lol.

Hardworker and Gunner are not the same thing. Gunners are not always the best, smartest, or most detail-oriented. One med student described gunners at his school as those who sit in the front row before class starts and have competitions to see who can solve a crossword puzzle the fastest, and who are in your face the second you get your exam back to ask you how you did while lying about their score and rubbing it in your face.

Except that gunners never would sit in the front row. They tend to be not so out in the open. A gunner cannot see what his classmates are doing, what resources they are using etc unless he is sitting behind them.

 

[gujuDoc]

Except that gunners never would sit in the front row. They tend to be not so out in the open. A gunner cannot see what his classmates are doing, what resources they are using etc unless he is sitting behind them.

Trueeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!! You just described a lot of people I know who would fall in this exact category even at the premed level.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think the closest I've seen anything like this was when this girl I know had borrowed a copy of an old sample exam one semester only to try and steal it from the person who let her look at it. Then she took a bunch of old exams and notes for another class from another friend who is now in med school and never returned it to that person.

There are a couple of other people I know that I'd call gunners too. But I'll refrain from discussing those situations.

In law school we had a classmate (it was never determined who) who routinely rushed to the library, used the resources necessary to accomplish the assignment, and then razor bladed the important pages out of the books. That is to me the epitome of gunnerism.

 

[Quix]

So I became unwitting prey by sitting front row, center for O. Chem? 😉

 

[Law2Doc]

So I became unwitting prey by sitting front row, center for O. Chem? 😉

Might as well have painted a target on your back.😀

 

[gujuDoc]

In law school we had a classmate (it was never determined who) who routinely rushed to the library, used the resources necessary to accomplish the assignment, and then razor bladed the important pages out of the books. That is to me the epitome of gunnerism.

A long time ago, I heard of rumors of that sort of stuff being done at Harvard University. I wish they had some sort of security where they could see who's doing these things because they could be charged with something I'm sure. I don't know what the charges for that kind of damage to library property would be, but it would seem like there should be something they could do. That's really sad that people would resort to such levels.

 

[turkleton]

There is a difference between gunners and focused and ambitious med students. Gunners, to me, feel that doing well and being nice are mutually exclusive- pick one and stick with it. They're obnoxious, arrogant, too full of themselves to realize that a well trained chicken could learn anatomy, and attribute their better grades to some enstein like intelligence and not for the fact that they have sacrificed showering for two weeks to memorize every line of Robbins. So that's why I can't stand gunners.

 

[SilkandSteel]

Might as well have painted a target on your back.😀

Bullseye!

 

[Quix]

Might as well have painted a target on your back.😀

😀

It felt that way at times; but then I lucked out by ordering the ACS Organic review with practice tests, and low and behold, we took the ACS exam for our final. Heh.

 

[MWK]

So I became unwitting prey by sitting front row, center for O. Chem? 😉

No no no, the true gunners sit adjacent to the plebians and their grumbling over their 48% despite studying for 6 hours before the test.

They place their 98% slightly to the left, just in the plane of peripheral eyesight and wait for the whisper of the "lessers" of "**** look what that guy got"...

 

[Dookter]

Some of the biggest gunners I ever knew were actually not the best students. You're not a gunner by doing well, and you're not going to do well just b/c you're a gunner.

 

[gujuDoc]

Some of the biggest gunners I ever knew were actually not the best students. You're not a gunner by doing well, and you're not going to do well just b/c you're a gunner.

well stated!!! This is the point the rest of us were trying to get across.

 

[gujuDoc]

Some of the biggest gunners I ever knew were actually not the best students. You're not a gunner by doing well, and you're not going to do well just b/c you're a gunner.

PS How come you still use the name UTpremed even though you are now in med school??? You know they allow for screenname changes. 😉

 

[defboy]

I deteste gunners. I have one gunner that is a grad student and he is after me. He made my chem lab a nightmare. I want the best doctor available to perform a surgery, as stated before the best doctor doesn't always have to be the smartest. There is a humanistic side to medicine and many, not all, gunners lose sight of this. they are the ones that will have the "god-complex" later after med school.

 

[etf]

gunners aren't people who shoot for the moon, but are rather people who would shoot you to get there.

 

[Stolenspatulas]

I deteste gunners. I have one gunner that is a grad student and he is after me. He made my chem lab a nightmare. I want the best doctor available to perform a surgery, as stated before the best doctor doesn't always have to be the smartest. There is a humanistic side to medicine and many, not all, gunners lose sight of this. they are the ones that will have the "god-complex" later after med school.

Also, being the MOST INTELLIGENT does not make you the best doctor, regardless of the humanistic side of medicine. Yea I said it.

I think certain personality traits are equally or maybe more important. If you are a surgeon or an anesthesiologist,etc, decisiveness is huge. A surgeon told me that perfectionists, from his experience, are more likely to hesitate on procedures just bc there are so many potential things to check for etc. This leaves wounds open longer, leading to a greater chance of infection. Qualities that make someone study for 1000 hours in a row to memorize text aren't the qualities you want in your doctor always.

Point- Decisiveness and quick-thinking along with the analytical mind.

 

[Eric Lindros]

Also, being the MOST INTELLIGENT does not make you the best doctor, regardless of the humanistic side of medicine. Yea I said it.

The people who are great all-around doctors proabably have the following:

-Not the most intelligent, but above average intelligence
-A lot of common sense
-A good work ethic with a sense of humor

 

[armybound]

The people who are great all-around doctors proabably have the following:

-Not the most intelligent, but above average intelligence
-A lot of common sense
-A good work ethic with a sense of humor

I fully agree.

 

[gujuDoc]

Also, being the MOST INTELLIGENT does not make you the best doctor, regardless of the humanistic side of medicine. Yea I said it.

I think certain personality traits are equally or maybe more important. If you are a surgeon or an anesthesiologist,etc, decisiveness is huge. A surgeon told me that perfectionists, from his experience, are more likely to hesitate on procedures just bc there are so many potential things to check for etc. This leaves wounds open longer, leading to a greater chance of infection. Qualities that make someone study for 1000 hours in a row to memorize text aren't the qualities you want in your doctor always.

Point- Decisiveness and quick-thinking along with the analytical mind.

I agree with you.

 

[pyrois]

If you needed heart surgery would a neurotic perfectionist who stakes his or her pride on every procedure really be bad?

No, but I would have a problem with a surgeon who was so self-assured in his own abilities that he refuses to take the advice of the other surgical staff... like his fellow surgeons or the radiologist who tell him he's wrong.

 

[MadHopsMD]

No, but I would have a problem with a surgeon who was so self-assured in his own abilities that he refuses to take the advice of the other surgical staff... like his fellow surgeons or the radiologist who tell him he's wrong.

Sounds like Dr. House!

 

[baylormed]

Sounds like Dr. House!

Yeah, and Dr. House is just a TV character.

 

[Law2Doc]

Yeah, and Dr. House is just a TV character.

And yet I'd still bet there are a lot of people out there who would let him do their surgery.

 

[CptCrunch]

What's your beef with Scratchy?

 

[smq123]

If you needed heart surgery would a neurotic perfectionist who stakes his or her pride on every procedure really be bad? No! We all happen to be going (or at least want to go) into a field where perfection is expected. The person who lazily strolls his or her way through premed and medical school is probably going to handle his or her career the same way - it is all part of their personality.

Where do you get the weird preconceived notion that perfection is expected in med school? Perfection is NOT expected. Doing your best and giving your best effort is expected, but perfection is not.

And just because someone isn't a neurotic perfectionist doesn't automatically mean that they're lazy. It isn't black-and-white.

 

[Stolenspatulas]

Wow this is the first time anybody has really agreed with me. I'm usually the razorblade shaving against the grain. 😎

 

[Grobular]

so does this count as masturbation for the day or are you going to do it again later, like in the shower or something?

Hilarious ... and better summarizes my sentiments than I could. I can't think of anything better to make out the poster's statements than a load of pompous self congratulatory crap.

 

[stockmanjr]

A long time ago, I heard of rumors of that sort of stuff being done at Harvard University. I wish they had some sort of security where they could see who's doing these things because they could be charged with something I'm sure. I don't know what the charges for that kind of damage to library property would be, but it would seem like there should be something they could do. That's really sad that people would resort to such levels.

I've heard stories of this kind of crap as well..I would hope that if a school caught someone in this type of practice they would be shown the door very quickly. I'm not sure if I would consider this girl a gunner but one time in gen chem 1 I asked this girl a question and she refused to answer it and refused to help anyone if they asked her anything. So the 2nd semester comes around and you can see this girl is going crazy over something and she comes upto me and asks me for help. I decided to help her since I truely believe we are in this whole thing toghter and I hate people who wont help others..
cheers!
howie

 

[Doctor Bagel]

In law school we had a classmate (it was never determined who) who routinely rushed to the library, used the resources necessary to accomplish the assignment, and then razor bladed the important pages out of the books. That is to me the epitome of gunnerism.

Thank god law students can use Westlaw and Lexis/Nexis free now -- the gunners can't screw with 'em as much. 🙂 I knew someone in law school got was studying in the library. She got up to go to the bathroom and left her books and notes at the table, which is something we all do. When she came back, she discovered that someone had stolen all her notes. 😱 Talk about a gunner freak!

 

[turkleton]

That stuff about law students is insane. When deciding where to go for undergrad, I was considering Hopkins thinking if I went there I would be a lock for their med school- still think I was smarter when I was 18- until I heard stories (unconfirmed, but from multiple "credible" sources) of their premeds being cut-throat to the point of sabatoging other people's labs, not sharing/partnering for difficult assignments, hogging library resources just so others would have them... and sacricifing goats in front of a giant alter with an upside downs star. One of these may not be true, but it was all enough to scare me the heck away- I just wanted to drink beer, act stupid, and study biology during hangovers.

 

[Dr. Dukes]

The highest incidences of malpractice go the meanies with attitudes and the ones who don't care, not the least competent.

Actually, thats only half true. The highest incidences of malpractice go to doctors who screw up. You can't get sued for messing up if you didn't mess up. That being said, docs are like 50% more likely to get sued if their pt doesn't like the outcome (they screwed up) and they're a jerk.
So...to avoid being sued, don't mess up. If you must mess up, be nice.

 

[cowme]

So...if all these definitions above really are gunners, then I don't see why everybody has such a problem with "gunners" on this board. From what I've seen on my interviews, medical students and medical school applicants seem just like me, and probably all of you. We all push ourselves as hard as we can to succeed, and understand the benefit of cooperation in the academic world.

As an undergraduate, I have had experiences with TRUE gunners, and let me tell you, these students have hardly been of the quality who could gain acceptance into medical school. Those who try to hurt the chances of successful students only do so to make themselves feel better about their poor performance, in the same way that biggots will discriminate to raise self-esteem for their own shortcomings.

Will there be medical students that lock themselves in a closet 24/7 to Honor every class? Sure...but they won't be running to their roommates computer to change the information on their powerpoint slides. Medicine is a profession that requires cooperation to succeed, and if there really are medical school gunners, they will not make it very far.

 

[TakoCA]

I've never actually heard the word gunner before reading SDN. "Cutthroat" is the term I'm more familiar with. The two seem to mean relatively the same things.

 

[Mr. McDuck]

Actually, thats only half true. The highest incidences of malpractice go to doctors who screw up. You can't get sued for messing up if you didn't mess up. That being said, docs are like 50% more likely to get sued if their pt doesn't like the outcome (they screwed up) and they're a jerk.
So...to avoid being sued, don't mess up. If you must mess up, be nice.

Mmm, I don't think that's entirely accurate. Doctors are sued for bad outcomes even when they've done nothing wrong. You can do everything right and still have a bad result. **** just happens sometimes. An OB I work with was just sued by a former patient because her child has ADD.